You could just be a genie warlock with pact of the chain, shove your imp familiar inside your vessel, and always have their magic resistance if you have a certain eldritch invocation. DND is a very balanced game.
Interesting there's a fair amount of disagreement between people about the ranking. Think this might be because people's PC flavor motivations for playing a particular Warlock subclass outweigh particular subclass mechanics
The warlock subclasses are fairly well balanced against each other. There's a few weak ones, and hexblade being...not broken, or even overpowered...just kind of stupid, but mostly they are pretty well balanced. Some of the weaker ones have been really improved with the 5.5 PHB and balance looks even better moving forward.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
Maybe not but with the right invocations you are also dropping a enemies speed by 20. That is locking a target down pretty hard.
I see this sentiment a lot but honestly both when I DM and I am a player, I find combat averages more like 4-6 rounds so a 2 round setup isn’t terrible. Lots of classes have to do that honestly.
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
Maybe not but with the right invocations you are also dropping a enemies speed by 20. That is locking a target down pretty hard.
As an aside to this ray of frost is not a warlock cantrip so you'd have to get it through some other source. If you got it through something like multi classing. Unfortunately things like magic initiate do not have the language that they add the spells to your spell list so I do not think it would work with any warlock invocations like agonizing blast if you really wanted to focus on this. You can always grab the lance of lethargy invocation on your eldritch blast though, through backwards compatibility.
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
Maybe not but with the right invocations you are also dropping a enemies speed by 20. That is locking a target down pretty hard.
As an aside to this ray of frost is not a warlock cantrip so you'd have to get it through some other source. If you got it through something like multi classing. Unfortunately things like magic initiate do not have the language that they add the spells to your spell list so I do not think it would work with any warlock invocations like agonizing blast if you really wanted to focus on this. You can always grab the lance of lethargy invocation on your eldritch blast though, through backwards compatibility.
I mean all cantrips are warlock cantrips if you try….#pactofthetome….
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
Hex is a trap after low levels anyways. It's a terrible investment for something much beyond the first level spell slot when you first get it, it's downright robbery when you use a 4th or 5th level spell for it. Fathomless allows you to skip past caring about Hex faster.
The tentacle is basically free castings of Spiritual Weapon, but with a rider effect and the ability to eventually use your reaction to reduce damage. And seeing as how Warlocks are starved for spell slots, getting your proficiency bonus in free 2nd level spells, only improved, plus the free 4th level spell once per day, and Fathomless is one of the few Warlocks that feels like it has actual spells to burn, made even better by the fact that you (probably) aren't burning mid level spells for a 1st level effect with Hex. Create a damaging area of effect, use the tentacles to reduce the ability of enemies to escape from it, and Eldritch Blast to force enemies back in if they manage to get out.
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
Maybe not but with the right invocations you are also dropping a enemies speed by 20. That is locking a target down pretty hard.
As an aside to this ray of frost is not a warlock cantrip so you'd have to get it through some other source. If you got it through something like multi classing. Unfortunately things like magic initiate do not have the language that they add the spells to your spell list so I do not think it would work with any warlock invocations like agonizing blast if you really wanted to focus on this. You can always grab the lance of lethargy invocation on your eldritch blast though, through backwards compatibility.
I mean all cantrips are warlock cantrips if you try….#pactofthetome….
I am not sure they are, but id rule it that way now that you bring it up.
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
Maybe not but with the right invocations you are also dropping a enemies speed by 20. That is locking a target down pretty hard.
As an aside to this ray of frost is not a warlock cantrip so you'd have to get it through some other source. If you got it through something like multi classing. Unfortunately things like magic initiate do not have the language that they add the spells to your spell list so I do not think it would work with any warlock invocations like agonizing blast if you really wanted to focus on this. You can always grab the lance of lethargy invocation on your eldritch blast though, through backwards compatibility.
I mean all cantrips are warlock cantrips if you try….#pactofthetome….
I am not sure they are, but id rule it that way now that you bring it up.
No ruling needed friend! It is made explicit in the language of the Pact of the Tome that any spell you take through that feature becomes a warlock spell. See below (emphasis added by me)
"If they don’t appear on the warlock spell list, they are nonetheless warlock spells for you."
Assuming the language on Pact of the Tome has been kept in 5.5e, this would mean any cantrips you take via Pact of the Tome count as warlock spells which makes them eligible for the new Agonizing Blast invocation.
Just to be clear, in order to rank something from best to worst (or worst to best), there needs to be criteria for measuring what makes one better than the other.
The best one, is the one you enjoy playing the most in the given campaign that you find yourself in.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Hexblade definitely took a hit with the Pact of the Blade update, but it can make for a mean two-weapon build! If not Hexblade than I would agree Genie, but my personal favorite is still Celestial both for its’ story premise and functionality as a healing tank that benefits from a high HP.
It’s also worth noting whether or not multiclassing via starting out with a dip in fighter for Constitution saving throws, fighting style and weapon mastery for a Pact of the Blade build counts or not. If not, the award definitely goes to Genie.
Hexblade definitely took a hit with the Pact of the Blade update, but it can make for a mean two-weapon build! If not Hexblade than I would agree Genie, but my personal favorite is still Celestial both for its’ story premise and functionality as a healing tank that benefits from a high HP.
It’s also worth noting whether or not multiclassing via starting out with a dip in fighter for Constitution saving throws, fighting style and weapon mastery for a Pact of the Blade build counts or not. If not, the award definitely goes to Genie.
Hexblade would be the way to go if you wanted to do a dual wield build. You can use your Hex Warrior feature with one weapon, and Pact of the Blade on another, so that you have two weapons attacking with your charisma. Take one level of fighter for some weapon masteries and you are off to the races. Could make for some fun builds.
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You could just be a genie warlock with pact of the chain, shove your imp familiar inside your vessel, and always have their magic resistance if you have a certain eldritch invocation. DND is a very balanced game.
Interesting there's a fair amount of disagreement between people about the ranking. Think this might be because people's PC flavor motivations for playing a particular Warlock subclass outweigh particular subclass mechanics
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
The warlock subclasses are fairly well balanced against each other. There's a few weak ones, and hexblade being...not broken, or even overpowered...just kind of stupid, but mostly they are pretty well balanced. Some of the weaker ones have been really improved with the 5.5 PHB and balance looks even better moving forward.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
8. Undying
7. Fathomless
6. Great Old Ones
5. Undead
4. Celestial
3. Fiend
2. Hexblade
1. Genie
I am not understanding Fathomless getting a low ranking. At low levels, it gets you a crazy way to deal damage, as the Tentacle of the Deep counts as you making an attack, so you can bump that Hex damage! It also slows the target, and you could couple it with Ray of Frost to really lock down an enemy. Put all that on top of Evard's Black Tentacles and you can lock a strong enemy in a meat grinder for a long time!
At low levels, the fathomless is kinda clunky. To get the tentacle with hex, that’s two turns of setup, and that’s assuming you used hex first otherwise you lose damage. Most combat encounters end in 3, so is it really that much damage?
Maybe not but with the right invocations you are also dropping a enemies speed by 20. That is locking a target down pretty hard.
I see this sentiment a lot but honestly both when I DM and I am a player, I find combat averages more like 4-6 rounds so a 2 round setup isn’t terrible. Lots of classes have to do that honestly.
As an aside to this ray of frost is not a warlock cantrip so you'd have to get it through some other source. If you got it through something like multi classing. Unfortunately things like magic initiate do not have the language that they add the spells to your spell list so I do not think it would work with any warlock invocations like agonizing blast if you really wanted to focus on this. You can always grab the lance of lethargy invocation on your eldritch blast though, through backwards compatibility.
I mean all cantrips are warlock cantrips if you try….#pactofthetome….
Hex is a trap after low levels anyways. It's a terrible investment for something much beyond the first level spell slot when you first get it, it's downright robbery when you use a 4th or 5th level spell for it. Fathomless allows you to skip past caring about Hex faster.
The tentacle is basically free castings of Spiritual Weapon, but with a rider effect and the ability to eventually use your reaction to reduce damage. And seeing as how Warlocks are starved for spell slots, getting your proficiency bonus in free 2nd level spells, only improved, plus the free 4th level spell once per day, and Fathomless is one of the few Warlocks that feels like it has actual spells to burn, made even better by the fact that you (probably) aren't burning mid level spells for a 1st level effect with Hex. Create a damaging area of effect, use the tentacles to reduce the ability of enemies to escape from it, and Eldritch Blast to force enemies back in if they manage to get out.
I am not sure they are, but id rule it that way now that you bring it up.
No ruling needed friend! It is made explicit in the language of the Pact of the Tome that any spell you take through that feature becomes a warlock spell. See below (emphasis added by me)
"If they don’t appear on the warlock spell list, they are nonetheless warlock spells for you."
Assuming the language on Pact of the Tome has been kept in 5.5e, this would mean any cantrips you take via Pact of the Tome count as warlock spells which makes them eligible for the new Agonizing Blast invocation.
Taking everything into account I would say that Hexblade is best but Genie is amazing as well.
Just to be clear, in order to rank something from best to worst (or worst to best), there needs to be criteria for measuring what makes one better than the other.
The best one, is the one you enjoy playing the most in the given campaign that you find yourself in.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Hexblade definitely took a hit with the Pact of the Blade update, but it can make for a mean two-weapon build! If not Hexblade than I would agree Genie, but my personal favorite is still Celestial both for its’ story premise and functionality as a healing tank that benefits from a high HP.
It’s also worth noting whether or not multiclassing via starting out with a dip in fighter for Constitution saving throws, fighting style and weapon mastery for a Pact of the Blade build counts or not. If not, the award definitely goes to Genie.
Hexblade would be the way to go if you wanted to do a dual wield build. You can use your Hex Warrior feature with one weapon, and Pact of the Blade on another, so that you have two weapons attacking with your charisma. Take one level of fighter for some weapon masteries and you are off to the races. Could make for some fun builds.