I developed a really great origin story for a GOO-Lock that I decided to tinker with on paper. A firbolg girl, kidnapped by a cult of Yuan-ti worshippers. They intended to use her as a sacrifice in a ritual to ascend them to become Yuan-ti, but instead they all died and she was transformed into a Yuan-ti. More than that, the ritual forged a connection between her and an unspeakable entity of incomprehensible nature that should have driven her mad -- but didn't.
The Warlock spell list has a lot of abilities that would mesh well with this theme, and would allow her to become a really effective combat disruptor and party action coordinator. But... going through the level ups, there came a point where, quite suddenly, I felt like the character wasn't gaining much of anything anymore. It was around level 10, I think, where the Spell Slots max out at level 5. Maybe it's in part because I did my quick math with Pact of the Tome for the cantrips, but I didn't feel that Blade or Chain were a good fit for the character.
I'm wondering if it would feel better to multi-class to get the feel that I'm looking for, but I'm not sure when would be a good opportunity. Or even into what. Sorcerer is the obvious based on the shared casting stat, but Wizard is another option. But I know I'd end up feeling the loss pretty heavily through Invocations, both through the more restrictive number of them (could probably work around this somewhat by shuffling which ones while leveling) and through the loss of access to Witchsight (needs 15 in Warlock, which would only leave 5 levels into a different class, which would kind of force a physical class to get effectiveness, but that gets wonky in other ways... and why not just go Pact of the Blade then?).
Just wondering what some more experienced people's thoughts are. How much GOO is "enough"?
I've only played to 11th or 12th level, so to me the higher levels are more theoretic than real, but.....
At 10th level a Great Old One Warlock learns another cantrip and gains immunity to telepathy and resistance to psychic damage, which is pretty meaningless because psychic damage is so rare At 11th level Warlocks learn another spell and gain one 6th level spell per day At 12th level Warlocks learn another eldritch invocation and gain an Ability Score Improvement At 13th level Warlocks learn another spell and gain one 7th level spell per day At 14th level a Great Old One Warlock gains the Create Thrall ability which combined with Tasha's Hideous Laughter and 2 failed saving throws, which should be at a DC of 18, by the target get's you a close friend who trusts you completely no matter what you do, which is role playing, not roll playing. At 15th level Warlocks learn another spell, gain one 8th level spell per day, and learn another eldritch invocation
And it keeps going. Warlocks keep getting very nice bumps as they increase up to level 20. The only thing that I don't care for is the 20th level ability to regain all expended spell slots.
I just rolled up a 1st level GOO warlock after playing a barbarian to 15th level. I agree with you. Looking through those level ups, the warlock seems under-powered. Our first game begins in 2-3 weeks, but I get the feeling that I'll just be spamming Eldritch blast, unless I can convince my party to take lots of short rests.
I just rolled up a 1st level GOO warlock after playing a barbarian to 15th level. I agree with you. Looking through those level ups, the warlock seems under-powered. Our first game begins in 2-3 weeks, but I get the feeling that I'll just be spamming Eldritch blast, unless I can convince my party to take lots of short rests.
Short rests should never be a problem for Warlocks, or any other short rest based class.
[RANT]
You shouldn't have to "convince" your party to take a short rest. If your character needs to rest, just tell them your character is going to rest. Unless there's serious time pressure built into the adventure you're playing, this should not be a problem for anyone. It might take an hour of game time, but it only takes about 30-60 seconds of table time to update character sheets (recover spells slots/recharge powers, roll hit dice/HP) unless some idiot decides to argue about it.
And they should know better than to argue. The whole group is better off if every character has access to all of their resources, and the game is more fun if everyone gets to play their character at full strength, or close to it. It isn't fun for anyone if one character is getting dragged from one combat to another with no resources, and the rest of the group has to cover for him because he's out of spell slots and can't pull his weight.
If your party actually needs to have this explained to them, you need to find a smarter gaming group.
[/RANT]
And don't worry, the Great Old Ones Warlock isn't underpowered. You'll do just fine.
I agree. Other party members should work with Warlocks, Monks, Circle of the Moon Druids, so that they get enough short rests to recover their resources. Fighters and Wizards also recover resources on short rests so they want to take some short rests too.
Even with short rests Warlocks send up spamming Eldritch Blast a lot. Two spell slots isn’t enough for even a short combat.
I agree. Other party members should work with Warlocks, Monks, Circle of the Moon Druids, so that they get enough short rests to recover their resources. Fighters and Wizards also recover resources on short rests so they want to take some short rests too.
Even with short rests Warlocks send up spamming Eldritch Blast a lot. Two spell slots isn’t enough for even a short combat.
I've found that careful choice of spells really helps with this problem. Spells that last for multiple rounds, or an entire combat, are good for stretching out your resources. At 1st level, Hex and Armor of Agathys have a lot of staying power. Later on, choose spells with durations of 1 minute or more, like Mirror Image and Hypnotic Pattern.
If you choose one-and-done attack spells like Shatter or (for FiendLocks) Fireball, you'll burn through spells slots too quickly. Warlocks are better as controllers than blasters.
I would certainly agree with that. Create no-go zones on the field, drop walls, apply conditions, etc. The issue, though, is that you end up with mostly Concentration spells, so you're going to get stuck holding one of them while doing Eldritch Blast over and over again.
I would certainly agree with that. Create no-go zones on the field, drop walls, apply conditions, etc. The issue, though, is that you end up with mostly Concentration spells, so you're going to get stuck holding one of them while doing Eldritch Blast over and over again.
I prefer Pact of the Blade for precisely this reason; I like to have multiple options for my at-will attacks. Currently I'm playing a Dex-based Feylock with Improved Pact Weapon and I've got my choice of Eldritch Blast, Longbow or Rapier.
So far I’ve only played Pact of the Tome and I’ve had cantrips coming out of my ears and I’ve used them. Eldritch Blast was my primary combat spell, but there are times when a different cantrip is a better option. My next Warlock is going to be Pact of the Chain.
If you choose one-and-done attack spells like Shatter or (for FiendLocks) Fireball, you'll burn through spells slots too quickly. Warlocks are better as controllers than blasters.
If you choose one-and-done attack spells like Shatter or (for FiendLocks) Fireball, you'll burn through spells slots too quickly. Warlocks are better as controllers than blasters.
At lower levels Fireball can be a fight ender.
Wizards and Sorcerers are generally better at that sort of thing. But if your group's only caster with Fireball is a Warlock, ending fights early is a good thing.
So far I’ve only played Pact of the Tome and I’ve had cantrips coming out of my ears and I’ve used them. Eldritch Blast was my primary combat spell, but there are times when a different cantrip is a better option. My next Warlock is going to be Pact of the Chain.
Did you go with the Warlock Ritual Invocation? Book of Ancient Secrets, that lets you add any Ritual spell to your Tome, and cast them as Rituals. I was looking at that, thinking it would be really good for picking up a lot of out of combat utility things. But that would depend on whether or not your DM is feeling generous with spell sources on your adventure.
I am currently playing a Pact of the Chain, Fiend Warlock, up to 12th, and multi-classing would have really hurt the characters focus (I also hate multi-classing on a philosophical level but that is something different).
The Imp familiar has been one of the powerful class features by far and has had a ridiculous impact on the flow of the game. Eldritch blast pushing creatures around, doing damage and reorganizing the battlefield has been surprisingly effective and if you HAVE to cast a single AOE spell having access to Fireball, even it is once per fight, can be a scale tipper.
Warlocks have made me play tight and focused, conserving resources and being creative in how I employ what the class offers. There is also the fact that since Charisma is our casting stat when not in combat, especially using Hex to cripple Insight rolls, we can be social monsters.
While your regular, once per short rest, spell slots max out at level 10 you start getting access to the special once per long rest spells which really does not put you that far behind most other casters. You can also start picking up some non-combat focused evocations, especially the shape shifting/appearance changing ones that coupled with your Deception (Charisma) lets you pull some neat RP tricks (Making yourself look like the head Villain striding into the room or that poor guard you just slaughtered, or a harmless old beggar...etc).
So far I’ve only played Pact of the Tome and I’ve had cantrips coming out of my ears and I’ve used them. Eldritch Blast was my primary combat spell, but there are times when a different cantrip is a better option. My next Warlock is going to be Pact of the Chain.
Did you go with the Warlock Ritual Invocation? Book of Ancient Secrets, that lets you add any Ritual spell to your Tome, and cast them as Rituals. I was looking at that, thinking it would be really good for picking up a lot of out of combat utility things. But that would depend on whether or not your DM is feeling generous with spell sources on your adventure.
I’m picking that up for the first time with my current Warlock as soon as he hits 5th level. He’s 4th level right now and I’m looking forward to seeing how that works out. He’s already searching for ritual spell scrolls and spellbooks for when he learns it!
I have a hexblade warlock, currently lvl 5. I use fly to keep distance and snipe with eldritch blast from 300ft xD pretty fun when people can't reach me.
My GOOlock is at lvl 13 in the current campaign I'm in. I plan on going all the way.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM: Are you sure?
Wizard: Yes. I cast the Wish spell and I wish that everybody loves me!
DM: You transform into an irresistible, magnificent feast. It was so great, all who participated in devouring you tell of the joy they felt with tears in their eyes and all who hear the tale only feel sorrow that they weren't there to eat.
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I developed a really great origin story for a GOO-Lock that I decided to tinker with on paper. A firbolg girl, kidnapped by a cult of Yuan-ti worshippers. They intended to use her as a sacrifice in a ritual to ascend them to become Yuan-ti, but instead they all died and she was transformed into a Yuan-ti. More than that, the ritual forged a connection between her and an unspeakable entity of incomprehensible nature that should have driven her mad -- but didn't.
The Warlock spell list has a lot of abilities that would mesh well with this theme, and would allow her to become a really effective combat disruptor and party action coordinator. But... going through the level ups, there came a point where, quite suddenly, I felt like the character wasn't gaining much of anything anymore. It was around level 10, I think, where the Spell Slots max out at level 5. Maybe it's in part because I did my quick math with Pact of the Tome for the cantrips, but I didn't feel that Blade or Chain were a good fit for the character.
I'm wondering if it would feel better to multi-class to get the feel that I'm looking for, but I'm not sure when would be a good opportunity. Or even into what. Sorcerer is the obvious based on the shared casting stat, but Wizard is another option. But I know I'd end up feeling the loss pretty heavily through Invocations, both through the more restrictive number of them (could probably work around this somewhat by shuffling which ones while leveling) and through the loss of access to Witchsight (needs 15 in Warlock, which would only leave 5 levels into a different class, which would kind of force a physical class to get effectiveness, but that gets wonky in other ways... and why not just go Pact of the Blade then?).
Just wondering what some more experienced people's thoughts are. How much GOO is "enough"?
I've only played to 11th or 12th level, so to me the higher levels are more theoretic than real, but.....
At 10th level a Great Old One Warlock learns another cantrip and gains immunity to telepathy and resistance to psychic damage, which is pretty meaningless because psychic damage is so rare
At 11th level Warlocks learn another spell and gain one 6th level spell per day
At 12th level Warlocks learn another eldritch invocation and gain an Ability Score Improvement
At 13th level Warlocks learn another spell and gain one 7th level spell per day
At 14th level a Great Old One Warlock gains the Create Thrall ability which combined with Tasha's Hideous Laughter and 2 failed saving throws, which should be at a DC of 18, by the target get's you a close friend who trusts you completely no matter what you do, which is role playing, not roll playing.
At 15th level Warlocks learn another spell, gain one 8th level spell per day, and learn another eldritch invocation
And it keeps going. Warlocks keep getting very nice bumps as they increase up to level 20. The only thing that I don't care for is the 20th level ability to regain all expended spell slots.
Professional computer geek
I just rolled up a 1st level GOO warlock after playing a barbarian to 15th level. I agree with you. Looking through those level ups, the warlock seems under-powered. Our first game begins in 2-3 weeks, but I get the feeling that I'll just be spamming Eldritch blast, unless I can convince my party to take lots of short rests.
Short rests should never be a problem for Warlocks, or any other short rest based class.
[RANT]
You shouldn't have to "convince" your party to take a short rest. If your character needs to rest, just tell them your character is going to rest. Unless there's serious time pressure built into the adventure you're playing, this should not be a problem for anyone. It might take an hour of game time, but it only takes about 30-60 seconds of table time to update character sheets (recover spells slots/recharge powers, roll hit dice/HP) unless some idiot decides to argue about it.
And they should know better than to argue. The whole group is better off if every character has access to all of their resources, and the game is more fun if everyone gets to play their character at full strength, or close to it. It isn't fun for anyone if one character is getting dragged from one combat to another with no resources, and the rest of the group has to cover for him because he's out of spell slots and can't pull his weight.
If your party actually needs to have this explained to them, you need to find a smarter gaming group.
[/RANT]
And don't worry, the Great Old Ones Warlock isn't underpowered. You'll do just fine.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I agree. Other party members should work with Warlocks, Monks, Circle of the Moon Druids, so that they get enough short rests to recover their resources. Fighters and Wizards also recover resources on short rests so they want to take some short rests too.
Even with short rests Warlocks send up spamming Eldritch Blast a lot. Two spell slots isn’t enough for even a short combat.
Professional computer geek
I've found that careful choice of spells really helps with this problem. Spells that last for multiple rounds, or an entire combat, are good for stretching out your resources. At 1st level, Hex and Armor of Agathys have a lot of staying power. Later on, choose spells with durations of 1 minute or more, like Mirror Image and Hypnotic Pattern.
If you choose one-and-done attack spells like Shatter or (for FiendLocks) Fireball, you'll burn through spells slots too quickly. Warlocks are better as controllers than blasters.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
I would certainly agree with that. Create no-go zones on the field, drop walls, apply conditions, etc. The issue, though, is that you end up with mostly Concentration spells, so you're going to get stuck holding one of them while doing Eldritch Blast over and over again.
I prefer Pact of the Blade for precisely this reason; I like to have multiple options for my at-will attacks. Currently I'm playing a Dex-based Feylock with Improved Pact Weapon and I've got my choice of Eldritch Blast, Longbow or Rapier.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
So far I’ve only played Pact of the Tome and I’ve had cantrips coming out of my ears and I’ve used them. Eldritch Blast was my primary combat spell, but there are times when a different cantrip is a better option. My next Warlock is going to be Pact of the Chain.
Professional computer geek
At lower levels Fireball can be a fight ender.
Abide.
Wizards and Sorcerers are generally better at that sort of thing. But if your group's only caster with Fireball is a Warlock, ending fights early is a good thing.
DICE FALL, EVERYONE ROCKS!
Did you go with the Warlock Ritual Invocation? Book of Ancient Secrets, that lets you add any Ritual spell to your Tome, and cast them as Rituals. I was looking at that, thinking it would be really good for picking up a lot of out of combat utility things. But that would depend on whether or not your DM is feeling generous with spell sources on your adventure.
I am currently playing a Pact of the Chain, Fiend Warlock, up to 12th, and multi-classing would have really hurt the characters focus (I also hate multi-classing on a philosophical level but that is something different).
The Imp familiar has been one of the powerful class features by far and has had a ridiculous impact on the flow of the game. Eldritch blast pushing creatures around, doing damage and reorganizing the battlefield has been surprisingly effective and if you HAVE to cast a single AOE spell having access to Fireball, even it is once per fight, can be a scale tipper.
Warlocks have made me play tight and focused, conserving resources and being creative in how I employ what the class offers. There is also the fact that since Charisma is our casting stat when not in combat, especially using Hex to cripple Insight rolls, we can be social monsters.
While your regular, once per short rest, spell slots max out at level 10 you start getting access to the special once per long rest spells which really does not put you that far behind most other casters. You can also start picking up some non-combat focused evocations, especially the shape shifting/appearance changing ones that coupled with your Deception (Charisma) lets you pull some neat RP tricks (Making yourself look like the head Villain striding into the room or that poor guard you just slaughtered, or a harmless old beggar...etc).
Abide.
I’m picking that up for the first time with my current Warlock as soon as he hits 5th level. He’s 4th level right now and I’m looking forward to seeing how that works out. He’s already searching for ritual spell scrolls and spellbooks for when he learns it!
Professional computer geek
I have a hexblade warlock, currently lvl 5. I use fly to keep distance and snipe with eldritch blast from 300ft xD pretty fun when people can't reach me.
My GOOlock is at lvl 13 in the current campaign I'm in. I plan on going all the way.
DM: Are you sure?
Wizard: Yes. I cast the Wish spell and I wish that everybody loves me!
DM: You transform into an irresistible, magnificent feast. It was so great, all who participated in devouring you tell of the joy they felt with tears in their eyes and all who hear the tale only feel sorrow that they weren't there to eat.