I started looking at the necromancer tradition today and felt something doesn't add up.
Assuming the necromancer is level 12, If he or she casts animate dead at level 4 that means the amount of undead risen from each cast is 1 (from regular cast) + 1 from the undead thrall ability and +2 since it's above level 3. That means we have total of 4 ! Now the spell says you can maintain up to 4 + spell level ( which is 4 that means +2) so a grand total of 6. at 12 level you only have 3 of them so you can maintain 6x3 which is 18? So far cool. Here is the weird part, that means if you cast animate dead 3 times you get 12 if you cast it again that means you'll get 16. so 2 off max. So it's impossible to gain it's maximum power unless you have 2 of them go rogue on you.
Was it intentional? or am i doing the calculation wrong?
TLDR: There is an overflow of undead when you cast it at 4th and above?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
There is only an "overflow" if you decide to target more corpses/piles of bones than you know you'll be able to assert control over. At level 12, you can cast Animate Dead at level 6, which gives you 8 zombies/skeletons (base 1, +6 for 3 levels over 3rd, +1 for Undead Thralls), or assert control over 10 (base 4, +6 for 3 levels over 3rd) of them. Casting at level 5 gives you 6 new undead, or assert control over 8. So, you could always choose to spend all 3 level 4 slots to create 18 undead, then spend your level 6 slot and one level 5 slot to assert control over all 18.
Now, if you decide to spend all your slots on creating/maintaining undead, that's an entirely different matter. The math has been done, but I honestly don't remember how well it aligned (created vs maintained). But it really shouldn't be a problem... you don't HAVE to spend all your slots in creating or maintaining undead, and you can always choose to create more undead you can control (by, for example, spending slots in creating new ones when you've reached your limit), and, to top it all off, you might not have enough corpses/piles of bones to cast the spell "fully" on.
I think you're overthinking the issue. 5e isn't meant to be math heavy - It might be fun to raise as many undead as you possibly can as a mental exercise, but its unrealistic in play, so its extremely unlikely the devs put a lot of thought into it and just picked a number that worked well for the necromancer. One Raise Dead spell to maintain two Raise Dead's creating undead at level 3 spell slot. Simple and straight forwards.
During the course of regular play, the amount of undead under your control is going to fluctuate up and down naturally, by virtue of a number of them being killed off during combat. I find its very rare for you to be maintaining your maximum number of undead, especially when you'll be saving some spells for Dispell, Counter, fireball or the like. The only time you should be considering your maximum number of undead is during downtime, and even then, you're going to be keeping some spell slots in check for the aforementioned necessary magic. Generally, what I find happens is that the necromancer will determine how many spell slots they want to devote to maintenance, then just keep that number of undead around.
One Raise Dead spell to maintain two Raise Dead's creating undead at level 3 spell slot. Simple and straight forwards.
I think Arlong's point is that when you consider Undead Thralls, "one raise dead spell to maintain two raise dead's creating undead" breaks down. =) I agree with the rest, tho!
Be default 1 casting of Animate Dead turns a pile of bones into a skeleton or a corpse into a zombie. Necromancer subclass lets 1 casting of Animate Dead turn 2 piles of bones and/or corpses into skeletons and/or zombies.
In addition you can use a single casting of Animate Dead allows the caster to maintain control of up to 4 skeletons or zombies.
In addition every spell slot above 3rd lets the caster reassert control over 2 extra skeletons or zombies per level of spell higher then 3rd.
Wizards particularly are benefited by the fact that a Short Rest allows for Arcane Recovery. So, I recommend the Necromancer always take the last watch. You just finished a Long Rest, so now you need to use Animate Dead to assert control over your undead. During 1 hour of the last watch, use a Short Rest. This lets you use Arcane Recovery to start with some of those spell slots back.
Bear in mind casting Animate Dead to reassert control adds 24 hours to the current "expire" time (but it must be cast during the "last" 24 hours, you can't pre-cast a week's worth of control in one sitting). It's not that they go free 24 hours after casting. Otherwise, you'd have to cast every day at the same time, or cast more frequently than once daily!
Bear in mind casting Animate Dead to reassert control adds 24 hours to the current "expire" time (but it must be cast during the "last" 24 hours, you can't pre-cast a week's worth of control in one sitting). It's not that they go free 24 hours after casting. Otherwise, you'd have to cast every day at the same time, or cast more frequently than once daily!
Damn, Necromancers need so much maintenance to a point it's not even worth playing imho.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Its really not that big of a deal. You just recast Animate Dead when you wake up, same time as you cast your daily Mage Armor. And its a pretty effective tactic for Necromancers. Its pretty intuitive when you play the subclass. Tis a molehill, not a mountain.
True, but it also kinda tough for the DM to "screw you" on it, since you have 24 hours to cast the spell to reassert control. You don't have to wait until the last minute for it. You could actually even cast to reassert immediately after casting to animate, which gives you 48 hours of undead. During the last 24 hours of that period, you can cast again to reassert for an extra 24 hours, so you get an entire day to do that.
In practice, unless your undead are dying left and right (I guess it can happen with Zombies, which get up close and personal with the enemy... Skeletons with short bows are somewhat more protected), what it comes to is just "I have X less slots for spells". I just re-cast after every long rest as part of the "morning routine". It's really not a big deal. =)
As far as maximum numbers go. Level 3 = create 2. Each level above creates +2.
3 L3. 3 L4. 3 L5. 2 L6. 2 L7. 1 L8. 1 L9
Unless my math is wrong. Thats 98 Skeletons and/or zombies.
Now. If you remove the L9 casting and instead summon 3 wraiths with create undead, you lose 14. However gain control of 3 wraiths with each can control 12 zombies (with 12 sacrificial humans)
Also. Everyone is suggesting casting after the long rest. If youre going for general of an undead army, and going intoa fight wherr you expect to lose a lot. Or using the fact that you can reassert (128 with full casting or 112 using the level 9 for the wraiths.) youre better off going with casting BEFORE the long rest if you can, so you have spells for the next day/battle
Pro-tip become a serial killer with finger of death for the ultimate undead army. Don't bother with animate dead once you get this as the undead created from finger of death are permanently under your control. I just wish it was skeletons instead of zombies.
Pro-tip become a serial killer with finger of death for the ultimate undead army. Don't bother with animate dead once you get this as the undead created from finger of death are permanently under your control. I just wish it was skeletons instead of zombies.
A spell that skeletonizes the target seems pretty reasonable.
You could cast finger of death on someone, turn them into a zombie, and then rend the flesh off of them and thereby turn them into a skeleton stats if your dm allows it.
If I have undead zombies and skeletons from “Animate Dead” and “Create Undead”, and I want to command all of them. Can I use one bonus action to command all of them?
If I have undead zombies and skeletons from “Animate Dead” and “Create Undead”, and I want to command all of them. Can I use one bonus action to command all of them?
No. It's one bonus action for all Animate Dead creatures and one for all Create Undead creatures. That said, unlike normal Bonus Action pets, your undead have memory, and can continue to obey orders from round to round, so you can alternate which group you give orders to, and often you won't need to give orders to either group.
I started looking at the necromancer tradition today and felt something doesn't add up.
Assuming the necromancer is level 12, If he or she casts animate dead at level 4 that means the amount of undead risen from each cast is 1 (from regular cast) + 1 from the undead thrall ability and +2 since it's above level 3. That means we have total of 4 ! Now the spell says you can maintain up to 4 + spell level ( which is 4 that means +2) so a grand total of 6. at 12 level you only have 3 of them so you can maintain 6x3 which is 18? So far cool. Here is the weird part, that means if you cast animate dead 3 times you get 12 if you cast it again that means you'll get 16. so 2 off max. So it's impossible to gain it's maximum power unless you have 2 of them go rogue on you.
Was it intentional? or am i doing the calculation wrong?
TLDR: There is an overflow of undead when you cast it at 4th and above?
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
There is only an "overflow" if you decide to target more corpses/piles of bones than you know you'll be able to assert control over. At level 12, you can cast Animate Dead at level 6, which gives you 8 zombies/skeletons (base 1, +6 for 3 levels over 3rd, +1 for Undead Thralls), or assert control over 10 (base 4, +6 for 3 levels over 3rd) of them. Casting at level 5 gives you 6 new undead, or assert control over 8. So, you could always choose to spend all 3 level 4 slots to create 18 undead, then spend your level 6 slot and one level 5 slot to assert control over all 18.
Now, if you decide to spend all your slots on creating/maintaining undead, that's an entirely different matter. The math has been done, but I honestly don't remember how well it aligned (created vs maintained). But it really shouldn't be a problem... you don't HAVE to spend all your slots in creating or maintaining undead, and you can always choose to create more undead you can control (by, for example, spending slots in creating new ones when you've reached your limit), and, to top it all off, you might not have enough corpses/piles of bones to cast the spell "fully" on.
I think you're overthinking the issue. 5e isn't meant to be math heavy - It might be fun to raise as many undead as you possibly can as a mental exercise, but its unrealistic in play, so its extremely unlikely the devs put a lot of thought into it and just picked a number that worked well for the necromancer. One Raise Dead spell to maintain two Raise Dead's creating undead at level 3 spell slot. Simple and straight forwards.
During the course of regular play, the amount of undead under your control is going to fluctuate up and down naturally, by virtue of a number of them being killed off during combat. I find its very rare for you to be maintaining your maximum number of undead, especially when you'll be saving some spells for Dispell, Counter, fireball or the like. The only time you should be considering your maximum number of undead is during downtime, and even then, you're going to be keeping some spell slots in check for the aforementioned necessary magic. Generally, what I find happens is that the necromancer will determine how many spell slots they want to devote to maintenance, then just keep that number of undead around.
I think Arlong's point is that when you consider Undead Thralls, "one raise dead spell to maintain two raise dead's creating undead" breaks down. =) I agree with the rest, tho!
I think the wording is very simple:
Be default 1 casting of Animate Dead turns a pile of bones into a skeleton or a corpse into a zombie.
Necromancer subclass lets 1 casting of Animate Dead turn 2 piles of bones and/or corpses into skeletons and/or zombies.
In addition you can use a single casting of Animate Dead allows the caster to maintain control of up to 4 skeletons or zombies.
In addition every spell slot above 3rd lets the caster reassert control over 2 extra skeletons or zombies per level of spell higher then 3rd.
Wizards particularly are benefited by the fact that a Short Rest allows for Arcane Recovery.
So, I recommend the Necromancer always take the last watch.
You just finished a Long Rest, so now you need to use Animate Dead to assert control over your undead.
During 1 hour of the last watch, use a Short Rest.
This lets you use Arcane Recovery to start with some of those spell slots back.
Bear in mind casting Animate Dead to reassert control adds 24 hours to the current "expire" time (but it must be cast during the "last" 24 hours, you can't pre-cast a week's worth of control in one sitting). It's not that they go free 24 hours after casting. Otherwise, you'd have to cast every day at the same time, or cast more frequently than once daily!
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Its really not that big of a deal. You just recast Animate Dead when you wake up, same time as you cast your daily Mage Armor. And its a pretty effective tactic for Necromancers. Its pretty intuitive when you play the subclass. Tis a molehill, not a mountain.
I agree with Mephista,
The GM, shouldn't be trying to "screw you" on it, if you had a long night, and "24" hours technically transitions after a bender.
Unless it's a session built around the hilarity of an alcoholic Necromancer that can't keep track of his undead.... Ok I have a new NPC.
True, but it also kinda tough for the DM to "screw you" on it, since you have 24 hours to cast the spell to reassert control. You don't have to wait until the last minute for it. You could actually even cast to reassert immediately after casting to animate, which gives you 48 hours of undead. During the last 24 hours of that period, you can cast again to reassert for an extra 24 hours, so you get an entire day to do that.
In practice, unless your undead are dying left and right (I guess it can happen with Zombies, which get up close and personal with the enemy... Skeletons with short bows are somewhat more protected), what it comes to is just "I have X less slots for spells". I just re-cast after every long rest as part of the "morning routine". It's really not a big deal. =)
As far as maximum numbers go. Level 3 = create 2. Each level above creates +2.
3 L3. 3 L4. 3 L5. 2 L6. 2 L7. 1 L8. 1 L9
Unless my math is wrong. Thats 98 Skeletons and/or zombies.
Now. If you remove the L9 casting and instead summon 3 wraiths with create undead, you lose 14. However gain control of 3 wraiths with each can control 12 zombies (with 12 sacrificial humans)
Also. Everyone is suggesting casting after the long rest. If youre going for general of an undead army, and going intoa fight wherr you expect to lose a lot. Or using the fact that you can reassert (128 with full casting or 112 using the level 9 for the wraiths.) youre better off going with casting BEFORE the long rest if you can, so you have spells for the next day/battle
Pro-tip become a serial killer with finger of death for the ultimate undead army. Don't bother with animate dead once you get this as the undead created from finger of death are permanently under your control. I just wish it was skeletons instead of zombies.
A spell that skeletonizes the target seems pretty reasonable.
You could cast finger of death on someone, turn them into a zombie, and then rend the flesh off of them and thereby turn them into a skeleton stats if your dm allows it.
If I have undead zombies and skeletons from “Animate Dead” and “Create Undead”, and I want to command all of them. Can I use one bonus action to command all of them?
No. It's one bonus action for all Animate Dead creatures and one for all Create Undead creatures. That said, unlike normal Bonus Action pets, your undead have memory, and can continue to obey orders from round to round, so you can alternate which group you give orders to, and often you won't need to give orders to either group.
I see, thank you