It isnt handicapping the wizard, it is ensuring the wizard doesnt have an unfair advantage. If you dont understand how requiring some builds (builds i am not using as everything i have suggested in this thread revolves around a longbow) but REQUIRING some builds to waste at least one turn just dashing is not an unfair advantage i dont know what i can say to convince you. When starting at 25ft the wizard has the option of walking or casting a spell to create distance; just WALKING would require that melee fighter to dash, are you seriously so biased that you wont abide your character using their movement in an intelligent manner?
If you do want "no holds barred" and to allow precasts, then you should allow the fighter the same opportunity. In Mythic Odessys of Theros, every character is suggested to start with some select "supernatural gifts", one of which is the Iconoclast, which allows ANY character with this gift that is the appropriate level to cast antimagic field. Go ahead and precast, set up a glyph of warding to get a second concentration spell... so long as you allow the fighter to start within 25ft and ACTUALLY abide by no hold barred then it wont matter.
@mog
I am not the author of this thread. That build is not my build and i have decried both the scenario and the way the fighter is set up. I did not make the build in the initial post, and did not give those magic items. If the scenario allows magic items, i would not have chosen the ones given in the initial post.
As i have said elsewhere, invulnerability only grants immunity to damage, not effects. A fighter can still incapacitate a wizard with invulnerability on through non damaging means, such as removing their material components and grappling them, perhaps under water if such options are available. Invulnerability is a very powerful effect, but it isnt a guaranteed win, it just massively puts the odds in the wizards favor.
This contest (as presented by the author, with the fighter allowed magic items and 60ft starting distance) entirely depends on initiative, whoever wins initiative is significantly more likely to win the fight. As the chronurgist wizard can get an additional +2 to their initiative modifier, they are thus 10% more likely to win this matchup.
/thread
You can’t disarm a Component Pouch or Inventory items. And Misty Step with Spell Mastery makes grapple useless.
And my entire contention was: regardless of initiative and items, the Fighter will likely win. So go ahead - what would your non-magical fighter do in round 1? And are you going with your Wizard Killer build?
Firebolt does 4d10, how do you think that gets down to 6 pts per round. Average of 5.5*4=22 points, with Resistance that becomes 11 points. Resistance does not stack. +3 Dagger with Belt does 1d4+ 3+7 = 11 minimum.
But screw that shit, if you get to put all that crap about situation and the armor, then I will use chill touch. No more regeneration, sorry.
Damage = 4d8, averaging 18 points, 9 with resistance but still no freaking regeneration.
Basically what is going on here is you built an optimized character to stop the stuff the wizard normally uses.
It isnt handicapping the wizard, it is ensuring the wizard doesnt have an unfair advantage. If you dont understand how requiring some builds (builds i am not using as everything i have suggested in this thread revolves around a longbow) but REQUIRING some builds to waste at least one turn just dashing is not an unfair advantage i dont know what i can say to convince you. When starting at 25ft the wizard has the option of walking or casting a spell to create distance; just WALKING would require that melee fighter to dash, are you seriously so biased that you wont abide your character using their movement in an intelligent manner?
If you do want "no holds barred" and to allow precasts, then you should allow the fighter the same opportunity. In Mythic Odessys of Theros, every character is suggested to start with some select "supernatural gifts", one of which is the Iconoclast, which allows ANY character with this gift that is the appropriate level to cast antimagic field. Go ahead and precast, set up a glyph of warding to get a second concentration spell... so long as you allow the fighter to start within 25ft and ACTUALLY abide by no hold barred then it wont matter.
@mog
I am not the author of this thread. That build is not my build and i have decried both the scenario and the way the fighter is set up. I did not make the build in the initial post, and did not give those magic items. If the scenario allows magic items, i would not have chosen the ones given in the initial post.
As i have said elsewhere, invulnerability only grants immunity to damage, not effects. A fighter can still incapacitate a wizard with invulnerability on through non damaging means, such as removing their material components and grappling them, perhaps under water if such options are available. Invulnerability is a very powerful effect, but it isnt a guaranteed win, it just massively puts the odds in the wizards favor.
This contest (as presented by the author, with the fighter allowed magic items and 60ft starting distance) entirely depends on initiative, whoever wins initiative is significantly more likely to win the fight. As the chronurgist wizard can get an additional +2 to their initiative modifier, they are thus 10% more likely to win this matchup.
/thread
You can’t disarm a Component Pouch or Inventory items. And Misty Step with Spell Mastery makes grapple useless.
And my entire contention was: regardless of initiative and items, the Fighter will likely win. So go ahead - what would your non-magical fighter do in round 1? And are you going with your Wizard Killer build?
@brewsky
For someone intent that a fighter can win, you sure seem agitater about a fighter that wins using your initial criteria.
I already said what my build does on its turn. It bonus actions to activate oathbow and then makes 8 attacks at advantage for 20 per hit. It can expect 3 crits in its turn on average. It should theoretically be looking at 205 average damage, assuming it gets 3 crits.
I would personally consider the removal of magic items after a build surfacing that beats the proposed chronurgist build to be moving the goalposts. You might say that "this was never your setup" but you posted the scenario and provided the builds. The fighter build you initially provided had magic items. If you insist on changing the criteria to not have magic items, i insist on reducing initial distance to 25ft to allow melee setups. And my build isnt "stacked with magic items" it specifically has 3 attunement items and nothing else..
@mog:
Sure, but how does a +3 dagger and belt make you win? So long as the fighter i proposed wins initiative (which is a coinflip with only +1 difference), it kills the wizard before it gets a turn to activate invulnerability. If my proposed build loses initiative, it is extremely likely that wizard would win.
If you are going to insist that you get to precast invulnerability, then i will insist on using Mythic odyssey of Theros rules to precast anti magic field via the Iconoclast gift.
My build never depended on regeneration, as it is an alpha strike setup. It doesnt want a drawn out fight. It has indomitable and lucky to get around convergent futures. Chill touch is irrelevant to my build.
This isnt "an optimized character to stop the stuff the wizard normally uses"..
A wizard does not normally have 20 dex. The chronurgist in question was specifically built to win initiative for the purposes of winning a 1v1. It is not the average wizard build.
Complaining that a purpose built character is defeated by a purpose built character is pretty weak imo.
The question asked was: can fighter 20 beat wizard 20? I provided a build, using the proposed criteria (despite personally having issues with those criteria) that CAN beat a wizard, specifically the wizard provided by the OP. If you do not want to accept that, then that is your issue.
Ok I'll try: The wizard as soon as he gets one action (diviner with a high protent roll or chronurgist with huge initative bonus and reroll will be likely to win initative):
T1: Wiz casts Wish --> Simulacrum (himself-->SimWiz) T1: SimWiz casts Maze on Figher (no save, minmaxed fighter has probably -1 Int meaning he can't make the INT ability check required to get out of the maze)
T2-i: Wizard and SimWiz prepare with whatever buffs they see fit (not required).
Ti+1: Wiz stopps concentration on Maze, fighter reappears, wizzard casts forcecage on fighter (no save again, 1h duration, can teleport out if available) Ti+1: WizSim casts fog cloud ontop of the Fighter (even if fighter has a misty step like ability he can't cast it because no vision)
Ti+2: Wiz casts Sickening Radiance on top of the forcecage.
Your fighter needs to make 100 Con saves against Sickening Radiance at 65% successrate. --> ~35 failed saves, 29 more than needed to kill him with exhaustion, no dmg needed.
Ok I'll try: The wizard as soon as he gets one action (diviner with a high protent roll or chronurgist with huge initative bonus and reroll will be likely to win initative):
T1: Wiz casts Wish --> Simulacrum (himself-->SimWiz) T1: SimWiz casts Maze on Figher (no save, minmaxed fighter has probably -1 Int meaning he can't make the INT ability check required to get out of the maze)
T2-i: Wizard and SimWiz prepare with whatever buffs they see fit (not required).
Ti+1: Wiz stopps concentration on Maze, fighter reappears, wizzard casts forcecage on fighter (no save again, 1h duration, can teleport out if available) Ti+1: WizSim casts fog cloud ontop of the Fighter (even if fighter has a misty step like ability he can't cast it because no vision)
Ti+2: Wiz casts Sickening Radiance on top of the forcecage.
Your fighter needs to make 100 Con saves against Sickening Radiance at 65% successrate. --> ~35 failed saves, 29 more than needed to kill him with exhaustion, no dmg needed.
Hah, well done! 🙂 Sickening Radiance is about the only spell that he can’t outlast! For specificity, with Resistance the Warrior would have a 77.5% success rate vs Sickening Radiance (and 94.63% with Indom). So it’s likely the first 3 rounds would be resisted, then of the remaining 97 rounds, an average of 22 would fail.
Not too shabby! I hadn’t predicted Wish / Simulacrum 🙂
Thanks :) Wish / Simulacrum and also Sickening Radiance / Forcecage are very nasty combos indeed. Ah I forgot about resistance. If there is no teleport ability available for the fighter, the simulacrum could also cast silence instead of fog cloud.
Thanks :) Wish / Simulacrum and also Sickening Radiance / Forcecage are very nasty combos indeed. Ah I forgot about resistance. If there is no teleport ability available for the fighter, the simulacrum could also cast silence instead of fog cloud.
I don’t think that would work as well - couldn’t the Fighter just decide to action surge/longbow the wizards?
A Yuan-ti Four Elements Monk, Gaseous form to escape Forcecage, 88% resistance to Wisdom and Dex saves (95.71% with a Ki Point Reroll), Evasion to reduce Dex saves to 0 damage, Stunning Strike to end Invulnerability (or any other concentration spell), Fly and 60ft normal movement (180ft with a Ki Point) to catch anyone trying to get away, 20AC so targeted attacks only have a 60% of hitting (36% if Monk Dodges for a Ki Point)...
Am I missing something that would overcome this one?
Thanks :) Wish / Simulacrum and also Sickening Radiance / Forcecage are very nasty combos indeed. Ah I forgot about resistance. If there is no teleport ability available for the fighter, the simulacrum could also cast silence instead of fog cloud.
I don’t think that would work as well - couldn’t the Fighter just decide to action surge/longbow the wizards?
Hmm not sure if he could attack with the longbow through the 1/2 gaps in forcecage though. At least it should give 3/4 cover i think.
If there is some cover the wizard can just stand behind it and should be fine as well. Fog cloud or Darkness is probably still more safe (...or maybe Dark Star to get both effects)^^
A Yuan-ti Four Elements Monk, Gaseous form to escape Forcecage, 88% resistance to Wisdom and Dex saves (95.71% with a Ki Point Reroll), Evasion to reduce Dex saves to 0 damage, Stunning Strike to end Invulnerability (or any other concentration spell), Fly and 60ft normal movement (180ft with a Ki Point) to catch anyone trying to get away, 20AC so targeted attacks only have a 60% of hitting (36% if Monk Dodges for a Ki Point)...
Am I missing something that would overcome this one?
Hmm same as above with silence no? Gaseous form still needs V components to be cast or at least I didn't read that it didn't (only material component is not needed). The Wizards initiative will be likely higher. With only 10 Int the monk is also still very vulnerable to Maze. Sickening Radiance should still kill him with 100 saves but it gets quite close. Worst case the Wizard has to try again with a second Sickening radiance spell (Ki would be used up by then).
Admittedly, if the monk gets first turn it's scary for the Wizard because of stunning strike and how difficult it is to shut down the monk with any spell that imposes a safe.
Concerning forcecage and gaseous form or other shapeshifting abilities. I searched a bit and it seems that it's debatable if this would allow to just move out of the forcecage: "A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means."
While the abilities that give you the movement that are supposed to allow you to pass through the cage gaps are magical, the movement itself is not. It's worded a bit unclear to be honest but it seems to me that the intention is that can only leave by magical transportation (e.g. teleports) and then you'd need a Cha save. But I see why one would argue that you'd be able to just fly through the bars as gasform/wildshape.
Firebolt does 4d10, how do you think that gets down to 6 pts per round. Average of 5.5*4=22 points, with Resistance that becomes 11 points. Resistance does not stack. +3 Dagger with Belt does 1d4+ 3+7 = 11 minimum.
But screw that shit, if you get to put all that crap about situation and the armor, then I will use chill touch. No more regeneration, sorry.
Damage = 4d8, averaging 18 points, 9 with resistance but still no freaking regeneration.
Basically what is going on here is you built an optimized character to stop the stuff the wizard normally uses.
Do you know what Dodge does? It gives disadvantage on attacks. And what’s this about resistance? Were you even reading the Stat block?
So my Fighter has 20 AC, you need 9+ to hit (36% chance of hitting with disadvantage). 7.92 dmg per round. Which doesn’t overcome Champion regeneration. If I had shield master, there’s an even greater chance of lowering that (that’s where the 6 comes from).
Chill Touch will do Ave 18 damage per round. And at most, 36% of the time it will do the full 18, and the other 65% of the time, I get 10 HP back. So the average damage of chill touch is (18*36%)+(-10*65%)= 6.48+(-6.5) = 0.02. So my healing still outpaces your damage.
More proof that there is literally no way to overcome the regeneration of a Champion Dwarven Fortitude character before any type of Invulnerability runs out.
Of... course I built it that way??? What did you think of this post was about? It’s literally a character meant to kill mages “without magical items” as many Wizard proponents claim. And it’s also a case study that “Polymorph/PWK” and “Invulnerability” are not guarantees. I stacked the Wizard stats against the Fighter so it would be harder for people to come up with excuses.
So far the only assured win against the Champion Fighter was the Wish—> Simulacrum —> Maze —> Forcecage —> Sickening Radiance method.
Firebolt does 4d10, how do you think that gets down to 6 pts per round. Average of 5.5*4=22 points, with Resistance that becomes 11 points. Resistance does not stack. +3 Dagger with Belt does 1d4+ 3+7 = 11 minimum.
But screw that shit, if you get to put all that crap about situation and the armor, then I will use chill touch. No more regeneration, sorry.
Damage = 4d8, averaging 18 points, 9 with resistance but still no freaking regeneration.
Basically what is going on here is you built an optimized character to stop the stuff the wizard normally uses.
Do you know what Dodge does? It gives disadvantage on attacks. And what’s this about resistance? Were you even reading the Stat block?
So my Fighter has 20 AC, you need 9+ to hit (36% chance of hitting with disadvantage). 7.92 dmg per round. If I had shield master, there’s an even greater chance of lowering that (that’s where the 6 comes from).
Chill Touch will do Ave 18 damage per round. And at most, 36% of the time it will do the full 18, and the other 65% of the time, I get 10 HP back. So the average damage of chill touch is (18*36%)+(-10*65%)= 6.48+(-6.5) = 0.02. So my healing still outpaces your damage.
More proof that there is literally no way to overcome the regeneration of a Champion Dwarven Fortitude character before any type of Invulnerability runs out. (Grampositive has the only surefire way thus far)
Of... course I built it that way??? What did you think of this post was about? It’s literally a character meant to kill mages “without magical items” as many Wizard proponents claim. And it’s also a case study that “Polymorph/PWK” and “Invulnerability” are not guarantees.
So far the only assured win against the Champion Fighter was the Wish—> Simulacrum —> Maze —> Forcecage —> Sickening Radiance method.
This isnt "an optimized character to stop the stuff the wizard normally uses"..
A wizard does not normally have 20 dex. The chronurgist in question was specifically built to win initiative for the purposes of winning a 1v1. It is not the average wizard build.
Complaining that a purpose built character is defeated by a purpose built character is pretty weak imo.
The question asked was: can fighter 20 beat wizard 20? I provided a build, using the proposed criteria (despite personally having issues with those criteria) that CAN beat a wizard, specifically the wizard provided by the OP. If you do not want to accept that, then that is your issue.
Designing a Fighter with magic items that can kill a Wizard isn’t a difficult enough thought experiment. I’m glad you had fun doing it. My goal was to prove that a purpose built Wizard didn’t have a guaranteed win using the PWK or Poly method, even WITH all the benefits of the doubt. I gave the Wizard stacked abilities for the exact purpose of making it more difficult to do it without magic. Make your own thread about how much damage you can do in a round with a bunch of magic items and stop derailing this one.
Thanks :) Wish / Simulacrum and also Sickening Radiance / Forcecage are very nasty combos indeed. Ah I forgot about resistance. If there is no teleport ability available for the fighter, the simulacrum could also cast silence instead of fog cloud.
I don’t think that would work as well - couldn’t the Fighter just decide to action surge/longbow the wizards?
Hmm not sure if he could attack with the longbow through the 1/2 gaps in forcecage though. At least it should give 3/4 cover i think.
If there is some cover the wizard can just stand behind it and should be fine as well. Fog cloud or Darkness is probably still more safe (...or maybe Dark Star to get both effects)^^
A Yuan-ti Four Elements Monk, Gaseous form to escape Forcecage, 88% resistance to Wisdom and Dex saves (95.71% with a Ki Point Reroll), Evasion to reduce Dex saves to 0 damage, Stunning Strike to end Invulnerability (or any other concentration spell), Fly and 60ft normal movement (180ft with a Ki Point) to catch anyone trying to get away, 20AC so targeted attacks only have a 60% of hitting (36% if Monk Dodges for a Ki Point)...
Am I missing something that would overcome this one?
Hmm same as above with silence no? Gaseous form still needs V components to be cast or at least I didn't read that it didn't (only material component is not needed). The Wizards initiative will be likely higher. With only 10 Int the monk is also still very vulnerable to Maze. Sickening Radiance should still kill him with 100 saves but it gets quite close. Worst case the Wizard has to try again with a second Sickening radiance spell (Ki would be used up by then).
Admittedly, if the monk gets first turn it's scary for the Wizard because of stunning strike and how difficult it is to shut down the monk with any spell that imposes a safe.
Concerning forcecage and gaseous form or other shapeshifting abilities. I searched a bit and it seems that it's debatable if this would allow to just move out of the forcecage: "A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means."
While the abilities that give you the movement that are supposed to allow you to pass through the cage gaps are magical, the movement itself is not. It's worded a bit unclear to be honest but it seems to me that the intention is that can only leave by magical transportation (e.g. teleports) and then you'd need a Cha save. But I see why one would argue that you'd be able to just fly through the bars as gasform/wildshape.
An interesting thought - with Maze, I have an Arcana of 6, so it would still be likely to take a few rounds to accomplish. And the Monk could cast gaseous form while in the Maze - so there’s no way to silence that casting.
I agree with you about the wording - it says “A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means.” (And gaseous form is magical), and only requires saving throws with “teleportation” spells so *technically* it should work hahaha. Maybe a good question for Crawford 🙂
Or, the Monk could use Empty Body while in the Maze, in the hopes that the Monk can return before the Wizard(s) cast See Invisibility. That could set up the required initiative benefit to be able to get a jump on them (though it seems Forcecage doesn’t even require sight for casting)
Alternatively, you have four level 7 spells and I can Astral Projection out of the Cage as well... a Charisma save would need a +13 or higher (64% chance) to succeed, which could be difficult. I’d have to beat it the four times to waste all your 7th level spells... that’s a daunting task.
I haven't posted in this thread in over ten days, despite it still being an active discussion... I also made it pretty clear that I was done with the thread in my posts. If you want to agitate people, I'd appreciate you leaving me out of it. My stance is, and always has been, that pvp comparisons are both unnecessary and trivial as every class (*even the ranger*) has builds and strategies to combat any obstacles as the 5e system has such a robust character creation system to allow just about anything.
Thats it. My 2 copper. Kindly leave me out of your ego games.
You’re the one still responding to a thread I started - feel free to let yourself out and ignore future notifications if you’re upset.
Just wondering, but it seems like looking at your Chill Touch calculations, it seems to be barely outpaced by your healing.
Haven't done any math, but wouldn't it be possible to simply cast a spell such as Bigby's Hand, and then Chill Touch? Bigby's Hand would add an extra 4d8 force damage on a successful melee attack, with a bonus action. Thus this wizard build could Chill Touch, then bonus action punch with Bigby's Hand. The initial action cost isn't that important, invulnerability lasts enough that it shouldn't matter. I doubt with your build you would be able to break concentration or destroy Bigby's Hand either considering it focuses on using it's actions for dodge purposes.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Just wondering, but it seems like looking at your Chill Touch calculations, it seems to be barely outpaced by your healing.
Haven't done any math, but wouldn't it be possible to simply cast a spell such as Bigby's Hand, and then Chill Touch? Bigby's Hand would add an extra 4d8 force damage on a successful melee attack, with a bonus action. Thus this wizard build could Chill Touch, then bonus action punch with Bigby's Hand. The initial action cost isn't that important, invulnerability lasts enough that it shouldn't matter. I doubt with your build you would be able to break concentration or destroy Bigby's Hand either considering it focuses on using it's actions for dodge purposes.
Yeah, that’s an option for sure! It’ll still be about a 36% Chance of hitting, so damage would be around 18 per round, which equals out to about 6.48 damage per round over and above the Chill Touch damage. So after 10 rounds you’d have 64.8 damage. It would take quite a few of those to finish the Dwarf Champion off because Dwarven Fortitude and Durability also gives the Dwarf free healing up to 300hp (total of 544hp if you include the starting HP). So it’s going to take a lot more than just Bigby’s Hand. I honestly don’t know of any amount of spells that can overcome all of that, especially with the 10HP regeneration.
On another note, forgot that Bigby's Hand is concentration, so no Invulnerability. Not sure how that effects this, considering while now the wizard could use that combo forever, but on the other hand idk your fighter's offensive stats since your link shows the other mage killer build (monk). Probably safe to assume the fighter could kill the wizard first.
Either way, serious props on this build, never would of thought to try to out-regen someone. Might return to this later with better ideas, but probably not since I'm not that creative.
Edit: ofc Simulacrum exists, but someone made a much better combo with that. Besides, I could just have that Simulacrum spamming other spells to similar effect.
On another note, forgot that Bigby's Hand is concentration, so no Invulnerability. Not sure how that effects this, considering while now the wizard could use that combo forever, but on the other hand idk your fighter's offensive stats since your link shows the other mage killer build (monk). Probably safe to assume the fighter could kill the wizard first.
Either way, serious props on this build, never would of thought to try to out-regen someone. Might return to this later with better ideas, but probably not since I'm not that creative.
Edit: ofc Simulacrum exists, but someone made a much better combo with that. Besides, I could just have that Simulacrum spamming other spells to similar effect.
If you have DnD Beyond you have unlimited creativity! Just keep building stuff and see what happens. Think of a capstone skill and see how you could exploit it as much as possible, or two skills that different classes get that have some synergy then go out and try it!
The Champion Build lost out to the Wish/Simulacrum/Forcecage/Sickening Radiance effect, which I hadn’t foreseen, so sometimes you just need to put something out there and see where it ends up. 🙂
Thanks :) Wish / Simulacrum and also Sickening Radiance / Forcecage are very nasty combos indeed. Ah I forgot about resistance. If there is no teleport ability available for the fighter, the simulacrum could also cast silence instead of fog cloud.
I don’t think that would work as well - couldn’t the Fighter just decide to action surge/longbow the wizards?
Hmm not sure if he could attack with the longbow through the 1/2 gaps in forcecage though. At least it should give 3/4 cover i think.
If there is some cover the wizard can just stand behind it and should be fine as well. Fog cloud or Darkness is probably still more safe (...or maybe Dark Star to get both effects)^^
A Yuan-ti Four Elements Monk, Gaseous form to escape Forcecage, 88% resistance to Wisdom and Dex saves (95.71% with a Ki Point Reroll), Evasion to reduce Dex saves to 0 damage, Stunning Strike to end Invulnerability (or any other concentration spell), Fly and 60ft normal movement (180ft with a Ki Point) to catch anyone trying to get away, 20AC so targeted attacks only have a 60% of hitting (36% if Monk Dodges for a Ki Point)...
Am I missing something that would overcome this one?
Hmm same as above with silence no? Gaseous form still needs V components to be cast or at least I didn't read that it didn't (only material component is not needed). The Wizards initiative will be likely higher. With only 10 Int the monk is also still very vulnerable to Maze. Sickening Radiance should still kill him with 100 saves but it gets quite close. Worst case the Wizard has to try again with a second Sickening radiance spell (Ki would be used up by then).
Admittedly, if the monk gets first turn it's scary for the Wizard because of stunning strike and how difficult it is to shut down the monk with any spell that imposes a safe.
Concerning forcecage and gaseous form or other shapeshifting abilities. I searched a bit and it seems that it's debatable if this would allow to just move out of the forcecage: "A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means."
While the abilities that give you the movement that are supposed to allow you to pass through the cage gaps are magical, the movement itself is not. It's worded a bit unclear to be honest but it seems to me that the intention is that can only leave by magical transportation (e.g. teleports) and then you'd need a Cha save. But I see why one would argue that you'd be able to just fly through the bars as gasform/wildshape.
An interesting thought - with Maze, I have an Arcana of 6, so it would still be likely to take a few rounds to accomplish. And the Monk could cast gaseous form while in the Maze - so there’s no way to silence that casting.
I agree with you about the wording - it says “A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means.” (And gaseous form is magical), and only requires saving throws with “teleportation” spells so *technically* it should work hahaha. Maybe a good question for Crawford 🙂
Or, the Monk could use Empty Body while in the Maze, in the hopes that the Monk can return before the Wizard(s) cast See Invisibility. That could set up the required initiative benefit to be able to get a jump on them (though it seems Forcecage doesn’t even require sight for casting)
Alternatively, you have four level 7 spells and I can Astral Projection out of the Cage as well... a Charisma save would need a +13 or higher (64% chance) to succeed, which could be difficult. I’d have to beat it the four times to waste all your 7th level spells... that’s a daunting task.
Maze is just an Intelligence ability check, not arcana, so the monk could only leave on a roll of 20 ;) I didn't even think that he could do anything in the Maze other than trying to escape but that's not stated so I guess he could cast gaseous form inside it.
A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.
The above is probably the kind of Forcecage that would be used by wizards in this situation.
The target can pass through small holes, narrow openings, and even mere cracks, though it treats liquids as though they were solid surfaces.
The above excerpt from Gaseous Form suggests that you are still matter (solid, liquid, or gas) and wouldn't be able to escape the Forcecage (plus casting Gaseous Form takes an action, not sure how this affects your 1st turn for the monk... and doesn't the wizard still go 1st using the same method to win initiative vs. the monk as it did vs. the fighter?).
(just some observations... may or may not apply)
I actually meant the cage form with the 1/2 inch gaps because spells from outside will otherwise not effect the creature inside.
If you make it a box though then you'd have to create the Sickening Radiance at the location before and then cast forcecage on top of it so the effect is already inside the cage together with the monk. I guess that would work, right?
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You can’t disarm a Component Pouch or Inventory items. And Misty Step with Spell Mastery makes grapple useless.
And my entire contention was: regardless of initiative and items, the Fighter will likely win. So go ahead - what would your non-magical fighter do in round 1? And are you going with your Wizard Killer build?
Dodge does shit.
Firebolt does 4d10, how do you think that gets down to 6 pts per round. Average of 5.5*4=22 points, with Resistance that becomes 11 points. Resistance does not stack. +3 Dagger with Belt does 1d4+ 3+7 = 11 minimum.
But screw that shit, if you get to put all that crap about situation and the armor, then I will use chill touch. No more regeneration, sorry.
Damage = 4d8, averaging 18 points, 9 with resistance but still no freaking regeneration.
Basically what is going on here is you built an optimized character to stop the stuff the wizard normally uses.
@brewsky
For someone intent that a fighter can win, you sure seem agitater about a fighter that wins using your initial criteria.
I already said what my build does on its turn. It bonus actions to activate oathbow and then makes 8 attacks at advantage for 20 per hit. It can expect 3 crits in its turn on average. It should theoretically be looking at 205 average damage, assuming it gets 3 crits.
I would personally consider the removal of magic items after a build surfacing that beats the proposed chronurgist build to be moving the goalposts. You might say that "this was never your setup" but you posted the scenario and provided the builds. The fighter build you initially provided had magic items. If you insist on changing the criteria to not have magic items, i insist on reducing initial distance to 25ft to allow melee setups. And my build isnt "stacked with magic items" it specifically has 3 attunement items and nothing else..
@mog:
Sure, but how does a +3 dagger and belt make you win? So long as the fighter i proposed wins initiative (which is a coinflip with only +1 difference), it kills the wizard before it gets a turn to activate invulnerability. If my proposed build loses initiative, it is extremely likely that wizard would win.
If you are going to insist that you get to precast invulnerability, then i will insist on using Mythic odyssey of Theros rules to precast anti magic field via the Iconoclast gift.
My build never depended on regeneration, as it is an alpha strike setup. It doesnt want a drawn out fight. It has indomitable and lucky to get around convergent futures. Chill touch is irrelevant to my build.
This isnt "an optimized character to stop the stuff the wizard normally uses"..
A wizard does not normally have 20 dex. The chronurgist in question was specifically built to win initiative for the purposes of winning a 1v1. It is not the average wizard build.
Complaining that a purpose built character is defeated by a purpose built character is pretty weak imo.
The question asked was: can fighter 20 beat wizard 20? I provided a build, using the proposed criteria (despite personally having issues with those criteria) that CAN beat a wizard, specifically the wizard provided by the OP. If you do not want to accept that, then that is your issue.
Ok I'll try:
The wizard as soon as he gets one action (diviner with a high protent roll or chronurgist with huge initative bonus and reroll will be likely to win initative):
T1: Wiz casts Wish --> Simulacrum (himself-->SimWiz)
T1: SimWiz casts Maze on Figher (no save, minmaxed fighter has probably -1 Int meaning he can't make the INT ability check required to get out of the maze)
T2-i: Wizard and SimWiz prepare with whatever buffs they see fit (not required).
Ti+1: Wiz stopps concentration on Maze, fighter reappears, wizzard casts forcecage on fighter (no save again, 1h duration, can teleport out if available)
Ti+1: WizSim casts fog cloud ontop of the Fighter (even if fighter has a misty step like ability he can't cast it because no vision)
Ti+2: Wiz casts Sickening Radiance on top of the forcecage.
Your fighter needs to make 100 Con saves against Sickening Radiance at 65% successrate. --> ~35 failed saves, 29 more than needed to kill him with exhaustion, no dmg needed.
Hah, well done! 🙂 Sickening Radiance is about the only spell that he can’t outlast! For specificity, with Resistance the Warrior would have a 77.5% success rate vs Sickening Radiance (and 94.63% with Indom). So it’s likely the first 3 rounds would be resisted, then of the remaining 97 rounds, an average of 22 would fail.
Not too shabby! I hadn’t predicted Wish / Simulacrum 🙂
Thanks :)
Wish / Simulacrum and also Sickening Radiance / Forcecage are very nasty combos indeed.
Ah I forgot about resistance. If there is no teleport ability available for the fighter, the simulacrum could also cast silence instead of fog cloud.
I don’t think that would work as well - couldn’t the Fighter just decide to action surge/longbow the wizards?
Hmmmm... what about this?
https://ddb.ac/characters/20393806/SjrOS2
A Yuan-ti Four Elements Monk, Gaseous form to escape Forcecage, 88% resistance to Wisdom and Dex saves (95.71% with a Ki Point Reroll), Evasion to reduce Dex saves to 0 damage, Stunning Strike to end Invulnerability (or any other concentration spell), Fly and 60ft normal movement (180ft with a Ki Point) to catch anyone trying to get away, 20AC so targeted attacks only have a 60% of hitting (36% if Monk Dodges for a Ki Point)...
Am I missing something that would overcome this one?
Hmm not sure if he could attack with the longbow through the 1/2 gaps in forcecage though. At least it should give 3/4 cover i think.
If there is some cover the wizard can just stand behind it and should be fine as well. Fog cloud or Darkness is probably still more safe (...or maybe Dark Star to get both effects)^^
Hmm same as above with silence no? Gaseous form still needs V components to be cast or at least I didn't read that it didn't (only material component is not needed). The Wizards initiative will be likely higher. With only 10 Int the monk is also still very vulnerable to Maze. Sickening Radiance should still kill him with 100 saves but it gets quite close. Worst case the Wizard has to try again with a second Sickening radiance spell (Ki would be used up by then).
Admittedly, if the monk gets first turn it's scary for the Wizard because of stunning strike and how difficult it is to shut down the monk with any spell that imposes a safe.
Concerning forcecage and gaseous form or other shapeshifting abilities. I searched a bit and it seems that it's debatable if this would allow to just move out of the forcecage:
"A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means."
While the abilities that give you the movement that are supposed to allow you to pass through the cage gaps are magical, the movement itself is not. It's worded a bit unclear to be honest but it seems to me that the intention is that can only leave by magical transportation (e.g. teleports) and then you'd need a Cha save. But I see why one would argue that you'd be able to just fly through the bars as gasform/wildshape.
Do you know what Dodge does? It gives disadvantage on attacks. And what’s this about resistance? Were you even reading the Stat block?
So my Fighter has 20 AC, you need 9+ to hit (36% chance of hitting with disadvantage). 7.92 dmg per round. Which doesn’t overcome Champion regeneration. If I had shield master, there’s an even greater chance of lowering that (that’s where the 6 comes from).
Chill Touch will do Ave 18 damage per round. And at most, 36% of the time it will do the full 18, and the other 65% of the time, I get 10 HP back. So the average damage of chill touch is (18*36%)+(-10*65%)= 6.48+(-6.5) = 0.02. So my healing still outpaces your damage.
More proof that there is literally no way to overcome the regeneration of a Champion Dwarven Fortitude character before any type of Invulnerability runs out.
Of... course I built it that way??? What did you think of this post was about? It’s literally a character meant to kill mages “without magical items” as many Wizard proponents claim. And it’s also a case study that “Polymorph/PWK” and “Invulnerability” are not guarantees. I stacked the Wizard stats against the Fighter so it would be harder for people to come up with excuses.
So far the only assured win against the Champion Fighter was the Wish—> Simulacrum —> Maze —> Forcecage —> Sickening Radiance method.
Do you know what Dodge does? It gives disadvantage on attacks. And what’s this about resistance? Were you even reading the Stat block?
So my Fighter has 20 AC, you need 9+ to hit (36% chance of hitting with disadvantage). 7.92 dmg per round. If I had shield master, there’s an even greater chance of lowering that (that’s where the 6 comes from).
Chill Touch will do Ave 18 damage per round. And at most, 36% of the time it will do the full 18, and the other 65% of the time, I get 10 HP back. So the average damage of chill touch is (18*36%)+(-10*65%)= 6.48+(-6.5) = 0.02. So my healing still outpaces your damage.
More proof that there is literally no way to overcome the regeneration of a Champion Dwarven Fortitude character before any type of Invulnerability runs out. (Grampositive has the only surefire way thus far)
Of... course I built it that way??? What did you think of this post was about? It’s literally a character meant to kill mages “without magical items” as many Wizard proponents claim. And it’s also a case study that “Polymorph/PWK” and “Invulnerability” are not guarantees.
So far the only assured win against the Champion Fighter was the Wish—> Simulacrum —> Maze —> Forcecage —> Sickening Radiance method.
Designing a Fighter with magic items that can kill a Wizard isn’t a difficult enough thought experiment. I’m glad you had fun doing it. My goal was to prove that a purpose built Wizard didn’t have a guaranteed win using the PWK or Poly method, even WITH all the benefits of the doubt. I gave the Wizard stacked abilities for the exact purpose of making it more difficult to do it without magic. Make your own thread about how much damage you can do in a round with a bunch of magic items and stop derailing this one.
An interesting thought - with Maze, I have an Arcana of 6, so it would still be likely to take a few rounds to accomplish. And the Monk could cast gaseous form while in the Maze - so there’s no way to silence that casting.
I agree with you about the wording - it says “A creature inside the cage can't leave it by nonmagical means.” (And gaseous form is magical), and only requires saving throws with “teleportation” spells so *technically* it should work hahaha. Maybe a good question for Crawford 🙂
Or, the Monk could use Empty Body while in the Maze, in the hopes that the Monk can return before the Wizard(s) cast See Invisibility. That could set up the required initiative benefit to be able to get a jump on them (though it seems Forcecage doesn’t even require sight for casting)
Alternatively, you have four level 7 spells and I can Astral Projection out of the Cage as well... a Charisma save would need a +13 or higher (64% chance) to succeed, which could be difficult. I’d have to beat it the four times to waste all your 7th level spells... that’s a daunting task.
You’re the one still responding to a thread I started - feel free to let yourself out and ignore future notifications if you’re upset.
Just wondering, but it seems like looking at your Chill Touch calculations, it seems to be barely outpaced by your healing.
Haven't done any math, but wouldn't it be possible to simply cast a spell such as Bigby's Hand, and then Chill Touch? Bigby's Hand would add an extra 4d8 force damage on a successful melee attack, with a bonus action. Thus this wizard build could Chill Touch, then bonus action punch with Bigby's Hand. The initial action cost isn't that important, invulnerability lasts enough that it shouldn't matter. I doubt with your build you would be able to break concentration or destroy Bigby's Hand either considering it focuses on using it's actions for dodge purposes.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Yeah, that’s an option for sure! It’ll still be about a 36% Chance of hitting, so damage would be around 18 per round, which equals out to about 6.48 damage per round over and above the Chill Touch damage. So after 10 rounds you’d have 64.8 damage. It would take quite a few of those to finish the Dwarf Champion off because Dwarven Fortitude and Durability also gives the Dwarf free healing up to 300hp (total of 544hp if you include the starting HP). So it’s going to take a lot more than just Bigby’s Hand. I honestly don’t know of any amount of spells that can overcome all of that, especially with the 10HP regeneration.
On another note, forgot that Bigby's Hand is concentration, so no Invulnerability. Not sure how that effects this, considering while now the wizard could use that combo forever, but on the other hand idk your fighter's offensive stats since your link shows the other mage killer build (monk). Probably safe to assume the fighter could kill the wizard first.
Either way, serious props on this build, never would of thought to try to out-regen someone. Might return to this later with better ideas, but probably not since I'm not that creative.
Edit: ofc Simulacrum exists, but someone made a much better combo with that. Besides, I could just have that Simulacrum spamming other spells to similar effect.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
If you have DnD Beyond you have unlimited creativity! Just keep building stuff and see what happens. Think of a capstone skill and see how you could exploit it as much as possible, or two skills that different classes get that have some synergy then go out and try it!
The Champion Build lost out to the Wish/Simulacrum/Forcecage/Sickening Radiance effect, which I hadn’t foreseen, so sometimes you just need to put something out there and see where it ends up. 🙂
Maze is just an Intelligence ability check, not arcana, so the monk could only leave on a roll of 20 ;)
I didn't even think that he could do anything in the Maze other than trying to escape but that's not stated so I guess he could cast gaseous form inside it.
I actually meant the cage form with the 1/2 inch gaps because spells from outside will otherwise not effect the creature inside.
If you make it a box though then you'd have to create the Sickening Radiance at the location before and then cast forcecage on top of it so the effect is already inside the cage together with the monk. I guess that would work, right?