on top of the ordinary function of extra attack, the bladesigner gains the ability to forgo one of the attacks they make using the attack action in favor of casting a cantrip. However can i forgo an attack to cast a cantrip even when i am unable to make additional attacks such as when using the additional action from the haste spell?
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No, Hast does not grant you another use of “the attack action,” it just lets you make an attack.
To be fair, haste absolutely does allow you to take an additional Attack action, as per the spell text. It limits that Attack action to a single weapon attack, but it’s still the Attack action, so it, for example, would allow you to use your bonus action for two weapon fighting.
The Bladesinger’s Extra Attack allows them to replace one of their attacks with a cantrip, and that’s true even if they only make one attack with their Attack action.
The crux, then, is whether Haste’s “one weapon attack only” restriction is more specific than Extra Attack’s “one cantrip allowance” or vice versa. I would personally rule that the restriction applies. You can’t cast a cantrip because Haste says one weapon attack, which isn’t a spell. But I could see a different DM going another way.
No, Hast does not grant you another use of “the attack action,” it just lets you make an attack.
To be fair, haste absolutely does allow you to take an additional Attack action, as per the spell text. It limits that Attack action to a single weapon attack, but it’s still the Attack action, so it, for example, would allow you to use your bonus action for two weapon fighting.
The Bladesinger’s Extra Attack allows them to replace one of their attacks with a cantrip, and that’s true even if they only make one attack with their Attack action.
The crux, then, is whether Haste’s “one weapon attack only” restriction is more specific than Extra Attack’s “one cantrip allowance” or vice versa. I would personally rule that the restriction applies. You can’t cast a cantrip because Haste says one weapon attack, which isn’t a spell. But I could see a different DM going another way.
I think the weapon attack overrides as it specifies for this particular Attack and not for Attacks in general. The closest that I could see as an exception would be BB and GFB because they make weapon attacks. I still think that's outside RAI, but it's open to interpretation until an errata comes out for Haste, which I suspect will happen once they figure out that Bladesinger has possibly opened that up.
No, Hast does not grant you another use of “the attack action,” it just lets you make an attack.
To be fair, haste absolutely does allow you to take an additional Attack action, as per the spell text. It limits that Attack action to a single weapon attack, but it’s still the Attack action, so it, for example, would allow you to use your bonus action for two weapon fighting.
The Bladesinger’s Extra Attack allows them to replace one of their attacks with a cantrip, and that’s true even if they only make one attack with their Attack action.
The crux, then, is whether Haste’s “one weapon attack only” restriction is more specific than Extra Attack’s “one cantrip allowance” or vice versa. I would personally rule that the restriction applies. You can’t cast a cantrip because Haste says one weapon attack, which isn’t a spell. But I could see a different DM going another way.
Fair, but it does still specify “one weapon attack.”
Yes, it does still require it to be one weapon attack, but if part of casting the cantrip is making one weapon attack (i.e. booming blade or green-flame blade), then it still fulfills that requirement and allows you to use this combination.
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Yes, it does still require it to be one weapon attack, but if part of casting the cantrip is making one weapon attack (i.e. booming blade or green-flame blade), then it still fulfills that requirement and allows you to use this combination.
This is what I was referring to earlier. I don't think it's RAI and I don't think they considered that interaction when they changed Bladesinger's Extra Attack. I wouldn't allow it as a DM, but technically it's RAW or at least RAW adjacent and open to interpretation. It could be ruled that Extra Attack doesn't come into play because it's only one weapon attack, which would preclude the cantrip option at all. But that's not specified well enough to be able to say that someone is strictly playing with a house rule outside of looking at the internet pre-Tasha's.
The short answer is you can replace the attack from haste with a cantrip so long as you haven't casted another 1 action spell that turn.
You are still limited to the max of 2 spells per turn, so long as one of the spells is a cantrip and one of them was cast as a bonus action.
This is per the rules in chapter 10 casting a spell inside the PHB.
Edit: this is the same reason why wizards who multi class into fighter to get action serge can't cast 2 1 action spell in a turn
that quirk of the spellcasting rules applies to spells cast as a bonus action only, there is no rule preventing you from casting more than 2 spells per turn and there is no rule that prevents you from casting two leveled spells if both used an action thanks to action surge
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After looking it up some more, the timing and spell restrictions only apply when a bonus action spell in involved. That involves a lot of headache.
I still stand by the you are able to replace the weapon attack with a cantrip spell from the attack action haste gives so long as you are level 6+ bladesinger.
To break this even more then is by getting Eldritch Blast. That means a level 6 bladesinger can get 2 uses of Eldritch blast (2 beams each) and 1 weapon attack for 5 attacks at level 6 while hasted up. This goes up to 7 total attacks at level 11. Multi class into warlock (hexblade is my suggestion) to add cha to damage. Use that bonus action to either cast hex or use the hex curse for even more damage...
After looking it up some more, the timing and spell restrictions only apply when a bonus action spell in involved. That involves a lot of headache.
I still stand by the you are able to replace the weapon attack with a cantrip spell from the attack action haste gives so long as you are level 6+ bladesinger.
To break this even more then is by getting Eldritch Blast. That means a level 6 bladesinger can get 2 uses of Eldritch blast (2 beams each) and 1 weapon attack for 5 attacks at level 6 while hasted up. This goes up to 7 total attacks at level 11. Multi class into warlock (hexblade is my suggestion) to add cha to damage. Use that bonus action to either cast hex or use the hex curse for even more damage...
Nope. That doesn't work. The cantrip still has to fulfill haste's prerequisite of "one weapon attack only". If the cantrip doesn't make the person do a weapon attack, they can't do the cantrip as the haste's Attack action.
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After looking it up some more, the timing and spell restrictions only apply when a bonus action spell in involved. That involves a lot of headache.
I still stand by the you are able to replace the weapon attack with a cantrip spell from the attack action haste gives so long as you are level 6+ bladesinger.
To break this even more then is by getting Eldritch Blast. That means a level 6 bladesinger can get 2 uses of Eldritch blast (2 beams each) and 1 weapon attack for 5 attacks at level 6 while hasted up. This goes up to 7 total attacks at level 11. Multi class into warlock (hexblade is my suggestion) to add cha to damage. Use that bonus action to either cast hex or use the hex curse for even more damage...
Nope. That doesn't work. The cantrip still has to fulfill haste's prerequisite of "one weapon attack only". If the cantrip doesn't make the person do a weapon attack, they can't do the cantrip as the haste's Attack action.
That’s not a valid reading of the text in play. Haste very explicitly does not let you cast a spell with its additional Action. Regardless of whether or not you’re making a weapon attack with your cantrip, casting a cantrip requires the Cast a Spell action, which you cannot do with your Haste action.
The possible exception in play regards the bladesinger’s Extra Attack which lets them replace a weapon attack with a cantrip when they take the Attack action.
There are two possibilities, depending on whether you think the Extra Attack text overrides Haste’s restriction or vice versa: either you can replace the weapon attack you can make with your Haste-given Attack action with a cantrip per Extra Attack, in which case you can cast any cantrip you want; or, Haste’s restriction does not let you use that part of Extra Attack, in which case you cannot cast any cantrip, regardless of whether or not the cantrip involves a weapon attack.
That’s not a valid reading of the text in play. Haste very explicitly does not let you cast a spell with its additional Action. Regardless of whether or not you’re making a weapon attack with your cantrip, casting a cantrip requires the Cast a Spell action, which you cannot do with your Haste action.
The possible exception in play regards the bladesinger’s Extra Attack which lets them replace a weapon attack with a cantrip when they take the Attack action.
I thought it was clear that I was speaking in the context of this thread. Obviously a normal person can't cast a spell from their hasted action, but a Bladesinger gains the ability to cast a cantrip as part of the Attack action, instead of the Cast a Spell action.
There are two possibilities, depending on whether you think the Extra Attack text overrides Haste’s restriction or vice versa: either you can replace the weapon attack you can make with your Haste-given Attack action with a cantrip per Extra Attack, in which case you can cast any cantrip you want; or, Haste’s restriction does not let you use that part of Extra Attack, in which case you cannot cast any cantrip, regardless of whether or not the cantrip involves a weapon attack.
Haste specifies that you must make "one weapon attack only" and the Bladesinger's Extra Attack allows you to replace an attack with a cantrip. From my reading, you can replace the Hasted Attack action with a cantrip, but it still has to fulfill the "weapon attack" requirement of Haste's Attack action.
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That’s not a valid reading of the text in play. Haste very explicitly does not let you cast a spell with its additional Action. Regardless of whether or not you’re making a weapon attack with your cantrip, casting a cantrip requires the Cast a Spell action, which you cannot do with your Haste action.
The possible exception in play regards the bladesinger’s Extra Attack which lets them replace a weapon attack with a cantrip when they take the Attack action.
I thought it was clear that I was speaking in the context of this thread. Obviously a normal person can't cast a spell from their hasted action, but a Bladesinger gains the ability to cast a cantrip as part of the Attack action, instead of the Cast a Spell action.
Don't worry, that was clear. I needed to establish the normal rule before diving into an exceptional case.
There are two possibilities, depending on whether you think the Extra Attack text overrides Haste’s restriction or vice versa: either you can replace the weapon attack you can make with your Haste-given Attack action with a cantrip per Extra Attack, in which case you can cast any cantrip you want; or, Haste’s restriction does not let you use that part of Extra Attack, in which case you cannot cast any cantrip, regardless of whether or not the cantrip involves a weapon attack.
Haste specifies that you must make "one weapon attack only" and the Bladesinger's Extra Attack allows you to replace an attack with a cantrip. From my reading, you can replace the Hasted Attack action with a cantrip, but it still has to fulfill the "weapon attack" requirement of Haste's Attack action.
That reading is exactly what isn't supported by the text. Booming Blade (or whatever) does not satisfy the "one weapon attack only" restriction. It's not one weapon attack only. It's one weapon attack plus all the other stuff that goes into casting a spell. The only thing that is only a weapon attack is a weapon attack.
Either you can replace the weapon attack with any cantrip, because Extra Attack says you can, or you can't replace the weapon attack with any cantrip, because Haste says you can't.
Ah, you're doing the argument that "only" would limit the type of attack allowed through the Hasted Attack action. I disagree with that reading, as that changes the meaning of "only" from being quantitative to qualitative.
If the "one weapon attack only" referred to quality of the weapon attack made and not the quantity, then by the RAW, a level 5 monk with haste cast on them would be able to make 2 attacks in the hasted action, as long as they were weapon attack and only weapon attacks. They wouldn't be able to use Stunning Strike or any other feature that would add an additional effect to the attacks, but the number of attacks they made would not be limited.
However, if you read the "only" as referring to the quantity of the weapon attacks made, then you can only ever make one weapon attack with that hasted attack action, but would be able to add any additional effects that you could add to a normal weapon attack as normal, such as Stunning Strike or a Rune Knight's Fire Rune fiery chains. The amount of attacks you can make is restricted to one weapon attack, but any additional effects you may add to the attack (such as Booming Blade) are allowed.
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You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
I'd emphasize "THOSE ATTACKS" and the extra single attack granted by Haste is not one of "those" ... nuff zed!
I will just respond to that by a hypothetical scenario:
A Bladesinger in combat decides to Extra Attack, using their first attack to cast booming blade as part of the Attack action. Their attack hits the enemy they target, and the last enemy dies. The Bladesinger then decides to not use their last attack, as there's no reason to do so.
According to your reading of the rule, the character would be forced to make a second attack in order to use this feature from Extra Attack. That's not how the rules work. They don't force you to make a second attack if one is all you need. The reason a player can choose to only make one attack when they take the Attack action and have Extra Attack is the same reason why the same character could use the Hasted Attack action to cast Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.
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Ah, you're doing the argument that "only" would limit the type of attack allowed through the Hasted Attack action. I disagree with that reading, as that changes the meaning of "only" from being quantitative to qualitative.
Or only can be qualitative and quantitative, which happens to align RAW with RAI.
only
without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively: This information is for your eyes only.
no more than; merely; just: If it were only true! I cook only on weekends.
definition one sounds like it encompasses both to me
I will just respond to that by a hypothetical scenario:
A Bladesinger in combat decides to Extra Attack, using their first attack to cast booming blade as part of the Attack action. Their attack hits the enemy they target, and the last enemy dies. The Bladesinger then decides to not use their last attack, as there's no reason to do so.
According to your reading of the rule, the character would be forced to make a second attack in order to use this feature from Extra Attack. That's not how the rules work. They don't force you to make a second attack if one is all you need. The reason a player can choose to only make one attack when they take the Attack action and have Extra Attack is the same reason why the same character could use the Hasted Attack action to cast Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.
The way that I see it, the only way to rule it RAW so that the cantrip can't be used is if Extra Attack doesn't come into the equation with the Hasted Attack action.
I could see the possibility of other cantrips being cast by the bladesinger due to the replacement clause, though that would be a catch for people that want to keep it somewhat close to the original intention, since it wouldn't include a weapon attack.
Interesting caveat, a bladesinger 6/EK7 could use each of their Extra Attack features during a turn and trigger War Magic, if this was allowed. Normal action would give the 2-3 attacks allowed for the fighter (3 would assume EK11). While hasted, they could use the bladesinger attack to trigger a BB, which works trigger War Magic to allow the bonus action full weapon attack.
Again, I don't think that this should work, since it wouldn't have been possible pre Tasha's and nothing that I've heard suggests that it was an intended interaction. But the language is such that I could understand DMs interpreting it as RAW.
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on top of the ordinary function of extra attack, the bladesigner gains the ability to forgo one of the attacks they make using the attack action in favor of casting a cantrip. However can i forgo an attack to cast a cantrip even when i am unable to make additional attacks such as when using the additional action from the haste spell?
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No, Hast does not grant you another use of “the attack action,” it just lets you make an attack.
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To be fair, haste absolutely does allow you to take an additional Attack action, as per the spell text. It limits that Attack action to a single weapon attack, but it’s still the Attack action, so it, for example, would allow you to use your bonus action for two weapon fighting.
The Bladesinger’s Extra Attack allows them to replace one of their attacks with a cantrip, and that’s true even if they only make one attack with their Attack action.
The crux, then, is whether Haste’s “one weapon attack only” restriction is more specific than Extra Attack’s “one cantrip allowance” or vice versa. I would personally rule that the restriction applies. You can’t cast a cantrip because Haste says one weapon attack, which isn’t a spell. But I could see a different DM going another way.
I think the weapon attack overrides as it specifies for this particular Attack and not for Attacks in general. The closest that I could see as an exception would be BB and GFB because they make weapon attacks. I still think that's outside RAI, but it's open to interpretation until an errata comes out for Haste, which I suspect will happen once they figure out that Bladesinger has possibly opened that up.
Fair, but it does still specify “one weapon attack.”
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Yes, it does still require it to be one weapon attack, but if part of casting the cantrip is making one weapon attack (i.e. booming blade or green-flame blade), then it still fulfills that requirement and allows you to use this combination.
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This is what I was referring to earlier. I don't think it's RAI and I don't think they considered that interaction when they changed Bladesinger's Extra Attack. I wouldn't allow it as a DM, but technically it's RAW or at least RAW adjacent and open to interpretation. It could be ruled that Extra Attack doesn't come into play because it's only one weapon attack, which would preclude the cantrip option at all. But that's not specified well enough to be able to say that someone is strictly playing with a house rule outside of looking at the internet pre-Tasha's.
The short answer is you can replace the attack from haste with a cantrip so long as you haven't casted another 1 action spell that turn.
You are still limited to the max of 2 spells per turn, so long as one of the spells is a cantrip and one of them was cast as a bonus action.
This is per the rules in chapter 10 casting a spell inside the PHB.
Edit: this is the same reason why wizards who multi class into fighter to get action serge can't cast 2 1 action spell in a turn
that quirk of the spellcasting rules applies to spells cast as a bonus action only, there is no rule preventing you from casting more than 2 spells per turn and there is no rule that prevents you from casting two leveled spells if both used an action thanks to action surge
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
After looking it up some more, the timing and spell restrictions only apply when a bonus action spell in involved. That involves a lot of headache.
I still stand by the you are able to replace the weapon attack with a cantrip spell from the attack action haste gives so long as you are level 6+ bladesinger.
To break this even more then is by getting Eldritch Blast. That means a level 6 bladesinger can get 2 uses of Eldritch blast (2 beams each) and 1 weapon attack for 5 attacks at level 6 while hasted up. This goes up to 7 total attacks at level 11. Multi class into warlock (hexblade is my suggestion) to add cha to damage. Use that bonus action to either cast hex or use the hex curse for even more damage...
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D&D Beyond FoundersIt's also worth noting the clarification from the officially published Sage Advice:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA159
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Nope. That doesn't work. The cantrip still has to fulfill haste's prerequisite of "one weapon attack only". If the cantrip doesn't make the person do a weapon attack, they can't do the cantrip as the haste's Attack action.
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That’s not a valid reading of the text in play. Haste very explicitly does not let you cast a spell with its additional Action. Regardless of whether or not you’re making a weapon attack with your cantrip, casting a cantrip requires the Cast a Spell action, which you cannot do with your Haste action.
The possible exception in play regards the bladesinger’s Extra Attack which lets them replace a weapon attack with a cantrip when they take the Attack action.
There are two possibilities, depending on whether you think the Extra Attack text overrides Haste’s restriction or vice versa: either you can replace the weapon attack you can make with your Haste-given Attack action with a cantrip per Extra Attack, in which case you can cast any cantrip you want; or, Haste’s restriction does not let you use that part of Extra Attack, in which case you cannot cast any cantrip, regardless of whether or not the cantrip involves a weapon attack.
I thought it was clear that I was speaking in the context of this thread. Obviously a normal person can't cast a spell from their hasted action, but a Bladesinger gains the ability to cast a cantrip as part of the Attack action, instead of the Cast a Spell action.
Haste specifies that you must make "one weapon attack only" and the Bladesinger's Extra Attack allows you to replace an attack with a cantrip. From my reading, you can replace the Hasted Attack action with a cantrip, but it still has to fulfill the "weapon attack" requirement of Haste's Attack action.
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Don't worry, that was clear. I needed to establish the normal rule before diving into an exceptional case.
That reading is exactly what isn't supported by the text. Booming Blade (or whatever) does not satisfy the "one weapon attack only" restriction. It's not one weapon attack only. It's one weapon attack plus all the other stuff that goes into casting a spell. The only thing that is only a weapon attack is a weapon attack.
Either you can replace the weapon attack with any cantrip, because Extra Attack says you can, or you can't replace the weapon attack with any cantrip, because Haste says you can't.
Ah, you're doing the argument that "only" would limit the type of attack allowed through the Hasted Attack action. I disagree with that reading, as that changes the meaning of "only" from being quantitative to qualitative.
If the "one weapon attack only" referred to quality of the weapon attack made and not the quantity, then by the RAW, a level 5 monk with haste cast on them would be able to make 2 attacks in the hasted action, as long as they were weapon attack and only weapon attacks. They wouldn't be able to use Stunning Strike or any other feature that would add an additional effect to the attacks, but the number of attacks they made would not be limited.
However, if you read the "only" as referring to the quantity of the weapon attacks made, then you can only ever make one weapon attack with that hasted attack action, but would be able to add any additional effects that you could add to a normal weapon attack as normal, such as Stunning Strike or a Rune Knight's Fire Rune fiery chains. The amount of attacks you can make is restricted to one weapon attack, but any additional effects you may add to the attack (such as Booming Blade) are allowed.
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I'd emphasize "THOSE ATTACKS" and the extra single attack granted by Haste is not one of "those" ... nuff zed!
Life's hard - get a helmet!
I will just respond to that by a hypothetical scenario:
A Bladesinger in combat decides to Extra Attack, using their first attack to cast booming blade as part of the Attack action. Their attack hits the enemy they target, and the last enemy dies. The Bladesinger then decides to not use their last attack, as there's no reason to do so.
According to your reading of the rule, the character would be forced to make a second attack in order to use this feature from Extra Attack. That's not how the rules work. They don't force you to make a second attack if one is all you need. The reason a player can choose to only make one attack when they take the Attack action and have Extra Attack is the same reason why the same character could use the Hasted Attack action to cast Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade.
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Or only can be qualitative and quantitative, which happens to align RAW with RAI.
definition one sounds like it encompasses both to me
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The way that I see it, the only way to rule it RAW so that the cantrip can't be used is if Extra Attack doesn't come into the equation with the Hasted Attack action.
I could see the possibility of other cantrips being cast by the bladesinger due to the replacement clause, though that would be a catch for people that want to keep it somewhat close to the original intention, since it wouldn't include a weapon attack.
Interesting caveat, a bladesinger 6/EK7 could use each of their Extra Attack features during a turn and trigger War Magic, if this was allowed. Normal action would give the 2-3 attacks allowed for the fighter (3 would assume EK11). While hasted, they could use the bladesinger attack to trigger a BB, which works trigger War Magic to allow the bonus action full weapon attack.
Again, I don't think that this should work, since it wouldn't have been possible pre Tasha's and nothing that I've heard suggests that it was an intended interaction. But the language is such that I could understand DMs interpreting it as RAW.