Trying to brainstorm some ways to make the various Cleric subclasses more distinct from one another.
A few ideas:
* Divine Strike as the default 8th level feature is really boring. Come up with something else for the less militant Cleric domains.
Divine Strike is appropriate for certain subclasses (like the War Cleric or Tempest Cleric), but it's overused even from the days of the PHB and thematically disjointed when assigned to every single subclass, even ones that are not supposed to be about violence, like the Life Cleric, the Peace Cleric, or the Trickery Cleric.
* Set up "Restricted Spheres" for each subclass. While spells from a Restricted Sphere may be cast by any Cleric, they require somewhat more effort. Casting a spell from the restricted list requires concentration even for a spell that normally does not. A ritual spell cast from Restricted Sphere requires twice as long. Attempting to cast a spell from the Restricted Domain will automatically end concentration on a previously cast spell.
This might be somewhat tricky because 5E got rid of distinctive spheres/domains entirely. Some spells would be obvious though: a Light Cleric would have any darkness creating spells in their Restricted Sphere. It gets harder though, with Clerics that worship themes or types of humanoid activity. It might be argued that a War Cleric should not be able to cast spells from the Peace Cleric's Domain Spells and vice versa, but some spells on those lists do not have a strong theme to them anyway.
I'm definitely in favour of more varied alternatives to Divine Strike; as you say it's boring as hell, and it feels a lot like it should have been a class feature and not a sub-class feature that weirdly every sub-class gets (so is it even a sub-class feature at all)? Trickster Cleric definitely should gain the ability to impose some kind of condition.
Not a fan of the idea of restricting spells; in general 5e tends towards being more permissive, leaving it up to the DMs and players to impose any restrictions upon themselves for narrative reasons, i.e- if you're playing a peace cleric, then your DM should question why you're preparing so many violent spells rather than sticking to the theme, and players should consider the same, by not preparing the spells that are most optimal, but instead prepare the ones that fit the character best. Plus the sub-class spell lists are somewhat mixed anyway; some like War Domain include a lot of spells you can take as a Cleric anyway, while others include mostly spells from other class lists (so others can't take them anyway).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
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A handful of subclasses do get Potent Spellcasting instead of Divine Strike, but that's still pretty generic
It wouldn't be hard to come up with different features that are combat focused but actually fit the theme of the domain as homebrew replacements though. Off the top of my head, Knowledge could get an Extract Aspects-like feature when they hit a creature, while Trickery could get an ability to teleport creatures around on a hit as with vortex warp
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Potent spellcasting and Divine Strike is a way to make sure that cleric don't get too stuck in as heal/buff bots. That said it probably wouldn't hurt to give certain domains other features for those who don't care about dealing damage.
The main problem is to make something that balances fun with usefulness and potential power. PS/DS is only useful in combat but can be used every round. Extract aspects is not a bad idea but if there aren't too many aspects to extract it might feel a bit wasted. One would probably need to play around a bit to find the sweet spot.
I'm definitely in favour of more varied alternatives to Divine Strike; as you say it's boring as hell, and it feels a lot like it should have been a class feature and not a sub-class feature that weirdly every sub-class gets (so is it even a sub-class feature at all)? Trickster Cleric definitely should gain the ability to impose some kind of condition.
Not a fan of the idea of restricting spells; in general 5e tends towards being more permissive, leaving it up to the DMs and players to impose any restrictions upon themselves for narrative reasons, i.e- if you're playing a peace cleric, then your DM should question why you're preparing so many violent spells rather than sticking to the theme, and players should consider the same, by not preparing the spells that are most optimal, but instead prepare the ones that fit the character best. Plus the sub-class spell lists are somewhat mixed anyway; some like War Domain include a lot of spells you can take as a Cleric anyway, while others include mostly spells from other class lists (so others can't take them anyway).
Obviously, any kind of intra-Cleric-class spell restrictions are purely homebrew, so the idea of Resticted Spheres is more to inspire more players to think outside the lines for what the 5E rules are. With the rules being what they are, it's almost entirely up to the player to decide how they want to play into or ignore from the lore of their class. A player who wants to play Death Cleric who packs Revivify or Raise Dead regularly isn't going to get much pushback from most DMs because ultimately, most D&D tables are about combat as much if not more than about role-playing.
By all means, if you have more ways to clearly distinguish the feeling of playing a War Cleric from that of playing a Peace Cleric or a Knowledge Cleric beyond the "fluff" of aesthetics or the invocation of one god versus some other god, then I'd love to hear it. That's what this thread is for.
By all means, if you have more ways to clearly distinguish the feeling of playing a War Cleric from that of playing a Peace Cleric or a Knowledge Cleric beyond the "fluff" of aesthetics or the invocation of one god versus some other god, then I'd love to hear it. That's what this thread is for.
War Domain specifically needs Extra Attack at 6th-level, as that would massively change it compared to others and firmly establish its theme. Alongside War Priest for a limited third attack, and Divine Strike it'd then actually be able to put out solid melee damage without casting a single spell, or very good short ranged/melee damage with a few choice spells (holy weapon, spirit guardians, spiritual weapon etc.).
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Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
By all means, if you have more ways to clearly distinguish the feeling of playing a War Cleric from that of playing a Peace Cleric or a Knowledge Cleric beyond the "fluff" of aesthetics or the invocation of one god versus some other god, then I'd love to hear it. That's what this thread is for.
War Domain specifically needs Extra Attack at 6th-level, as that would massively change it compared to others and firmly establish its theme. Alongside War Priest for a limited third attack, and Divine Strike it'd then actually be able to put out solid melee damage without casting a single spell, or very good short ranged/melee damage with a few choice spells (holy weapon, spirit guardians, spiritual weapon etc.).
War Cleric (or really any cleric) is already a powerful class I think extra attack would be OP unless you took away heavy armor and martial weapons.
You would have a full caster who gets the same number of attacks as a Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian (more with channel divinity) while being able to use any weapon and armor and having full caster spell slots. That is far better than the extra attack from the Bard, Wizard and Warlock subclasses which limits your weapon and armor choices.
I think a better option is to give war domain a blade cantrip (perhaps a new more thematic cantrip but with the same sort of scaling as booming blade). Combined with divine strike that would make his at will melee damage about equal to the 2-attack martials.
You could also look at giving him a fighting style and student of war (from battlemaster) at 6th level. That would not be as much melee damage but it would fit perfectly with the "war" theme.
A handful of subclasses do get Potent Spellcasting instead of Divine Strike, but that's still pretty generic
It wouldn't be hard to come up with different features that are combat focused but actually fit the theme of the domain as homebrew replacements though. Off the top of my head, Knowledge could get an Extract Aspects-like feature when they hit a creature, while Trickery could get an ability to teleport creatures around on a hit as with vortex warp
Sorry, which class or subclass is "Extract Aspects" from?
A handful of subclasses do get Potent Spellcasting instead of Divine Strike, but that's still pretty generic
It wouldn't be hard to come up with different features that are combat focused but actually fit the theme of the domain as homebrew replacements though. Off the top of my head, Knowledge could get an Extract Aspects-like feature when they hit a creature, while Trickery could get an ability to teleport creatures around on a hit as with vortex warp
Sorry, which class or subclass is "Extract Aspects" from?
Monk - Cobalt Soul (from Critical Role). Obviously would require some tweaking so it's not Flurry of Blows/unarmed strike based
Extract Aspects
Starting at 3rd level, you can strike pressure points to intuit crucial information about a foe. When you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can analyze it. Whenever an analyzed creature misses you with an attack, you can immediately use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against that creature if it’s within your reach. This benefit lasts until you finish a short or long rest.
Additionally, when you analyze a creature, you learn all of its damage vulnerabilities, damage resistances, damage immunities, and condition immunities.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Monk - Cobalt Soul (from Critical Role). Obviously would require some tweaking so it's not Flurry of Blows/unarmed strike based
Extract Aspects
Starting at 3rd level, you can strike pressure points to intuit crucial information about a foe. When you hit a creature with one of the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows, you can analyze it. Whenever an analyzed creature misses you with an attack, you can immediately use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against that creature if it’s within your reach. This benefit lasts until you finish a short or long rest.
Additionally, when you analyze a creature, you learn all of its damage vulnerabilities, damage resistances, damage immunities, and condition immunities.
Interestingly, I always did feel like the Cobalt Soul Monk made more sense as a Cleric than as a Monk from a mechanics perspective.
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Trying to brainstorm some ways to make the various Cleric subclasses more distinct from one another.
A few ideas:
* Divine Strike as the default 8th level feature is really boring. Come up with something else for the less militant Cleric domains.
Divine Strike is appropriate for certain subclasses (like the War Cleric or Tempest Cleric), but it's overused even from the days of the PHB and thematically disjointed when assigned to every single subclass, even ones that are not supposed to be about violence, like the Life Cleric, the Peace Cleric, or the Trickery Cleric.
* Set up "Restricted Spheres" for each subclass. While spells from a Restricted Sphere may be cast by any Cleric, they require somewhat more effort. Casting a spell from the restricted list requires concentration even for a spell that normally does not. A ritual spell cast from Restricted Sphere requires twice as long. Attempting to cast a spell from the Restricted Domain will automatically end concentration on a previously cast spell.
This might be somewhat tricky because 5E got rid of distinctive spheres/domains entirely. Some spells would be obvious though: a Light Cleric would have any darkness creating spells in their Restricted Sphere. It gets harder though, with Clerics that worship themes or types of humanoid activity. It might be argued that a War Cleric should not be able to cast spells from the Peace Cleric's Domain Spells and vice versa, but some spells on those lists do not have a strong theme to them anyway.
I'm definitely in favour of more varied alternatives to Divine Strike; as you say it's boring as hell, and it feels a lot like it should have been a class feature and not a sub-class feature that weirdly every sub-class gets (so is it even a sub-class feature at all)? Trickster Cleric definitely should gain the ability to impose some kind of condition.
Not a fan of the idea of restricting spells; in general 5e tends towards being more permissive, leaving it up to the DMs and players to impose any restrictions upon themselves for narrative reasons, i.e- if you're playing a peace cleric, then your DM should question why you're preparing so many violent spells rather than sticking to the theme, and players should consider the same, by not preparing the spells that are most optimal, but instead prepare the ones that fit the character best. Plus the sub-class spell lists are somewhat mixed anyway; some like War Domain include a lot of spells you can take as a Cleric anyway, while others include mostly spells from other class lists (so others can't take them anyway).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
A handful of subclasses do get Potent Spellcasting instead of Divine Strike, but that's still pretty generic
It wouldn't be hard to come up with different features that are combat focused but actually fit the theme of the domain as homebrew replacements though. Off the top of my head, Knowledge could get an Extract Aspects-like feature when they hit a creature, while Trickery could get an ability to teleport creatures around on a hit as with vortex warp
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Potent spellcasting and Divine Strike is a way to make sure that cleric don't get too stuck in as heal/buff bots. That said it probably wouldn't hurt to give certain domains other features for those who don't care about dealing damage.
The main problem is to make something that balances fun with usefulness and potential power. PS/DS is only useful in combat but can be used every round. Extract aspects is not a bad idea but if there aren't too many aspects to extract it might feel a bit wasted. One would probably need to play around a bit to find the sweet spot.
Obviously, any kind of intra-Cleric-class spell restrictions are purely homebrew, so the idea of Resticted Spheres is more to inspire more players to think outside the lines for what the 5E rules are. With the rules being what they are, it's almost entirely up to the player to decide how they want to play into or ignore from the lore of their class. A player who wants to play Death Cleric who packs Revivify or Raise Dead regularly isn't going to get much pushback from most DMs because ultimately, most D&D tables are about combat as much if not more than about role-playing.
By all means, if you have more ways to clearly distinguish the feeling of playing a War Cleric from that of playing a Peace Cleric or a Knowledge Cleric beyond the "fluff" of aesthetics or the invocation of one god versus some other god, then I'd love to hear it. That's what this thread is for.
War Domain specifically needs Extra Attack at 6th-level, as that would massively change it compared to others and firmly establish its theme. Alongside War Priest for a limited third attack, and Divine Strike it'd then actually be able to put out solid melee damage without casting a single spell, or very good short ranged/melee damage with a few choice spells (holy weapon, spirit guardians, spiritual weapon etc.).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
War Cleric (or really any cleric) is already a powerful class I think extra attack would be OP unless you took away heavy armor and martial weapons.
You would have a full caster who gets the same number of attacks as a Ranger, Paladin or Barbarian (more with channel divinity) while being able to use any weapon and armor and having full caster spell slots. That is far better than the extra attack from the Bard, Wizard and Warlock subclasses which limits your weapon and armor choices.
I think a better option is to give war domain a blade cantrip (perhaps a new more thematic cantrip but with the same sort of scaling as booming blade). Combined with divine strike that would make his at will melee damage about equal to the 2-attack martials.
You could also look at giving him a fighting style and student of war (from battlemaster) at 6th level. That would not be as much melee damage but it would fit perfectly with the "war" theme.
Sorry, which class or subclass is "Extract Aspects" from?
Monk - Cobalt Soul (from Critical Role). Obviously would require some tweaking so it's not Flurry of Blows/unarmed strike based
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Interestingly, I always did feel like the Cobalt Soul Monk made more sense as a Cleric than as a Monk from a mechanics perspective.