I only use DDB as a source for online formatted rules, and it does a good job at those things. How many people actually use it to run campaigns?
I do, but has to be said it is mainly because fantastic beyond20 tranfers all those rules and dice rolls to Roll20 (used for maps, tokens, combat tracker)/Discord (voice, dicerolls)
I only use DDB as a source for online formatted rules, and it does a good job at those things. How many people actually use it to run campaigns?
I'm currently running 4 campaigns, one of which is on this very forum, and playing in about 3 others using nothing but DnD Beyond.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Well I've made a significant investment in the DDB platform buying a legendary bundle and follow up books, plus master tier subscription. I've brought multiple people to the platform because I am the DM and they in turn have subscribed and bought stuff. So I'm invested in the success of the platform.
I'm also a software engineer by day, working in React/AWS/WebApi daily. Been doing software development for over 30 years. So I know the pain points.
And yet I also find the pace of changes/updates to be excruciating. The only thing I have to judge by is the ChangeLog, and it's clear that it is not being properly maintained. Which is why I wanted to point them to a VS Code style monthly release, where they could put in everything that they do. I know things are being done, but it's not being communicated to the audience. Yes I watch the Dev Updates, and it's nice but after awhile it's similar with what is 'upcoming' repeated over and over.
It would go a LONG way toward public perception if you just did detailed change logs. Include the fact that you reworked some server API's, or indexed the database, etc. Those are valid things and take time and deserve at least of modicum of recognition.
As a DM I keep waiting for Tools to help me manage my game better. Dice are nice, but let's focus on the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker. Those are what the whole character sheet stuff was developed for. I care less about the 'Life Domain Cleric', which affects one player of my group, than the builder/tracker which affects every player in my group.
TLDR; 1. Improve public perception of work being done by posting more detailed changelogs more often. 2. Improve public perception by clearly identifying the teams (character sheet team, dice team, etc) and then providing better insight into area those teams are working on. 3. Improve the DM tools we use every single session: Encounter Builder/Combat Tracker
Well I've made a significant investment in the DDB platform buying a legendary bundle and follow up books, plus master tier subscription. I've brought multiple people to the platform because I am the DM and they in turn have subscribed and bought stuff. So I'm invested in the success of the platform.
I'm also a software engineer by day, working in React/AWS/WebApi daily. Been doing software development for over 30 years. So I know the pain points.
And yet I also find the pace of changes/updates to be excruciating. The only thing I have to judge by is the ChangeLog, and it's clear that it is not being properly maintained. Which is why I wanted to point them to a VS Code style monthly release, where they could put in everything that they do. I know things are being done, but it's not being communicated to the audience. Yes I watch the Dev Updates, and it's nice but after awhile it's similar with what is 'upcoming' repeated over and over.
It would go a LONG way toward public perception if you just did detailed change logs. Include the fact that you reworked some server API's, or indexed the database, etc. Those are valid things and take time and deserve at least of modicum of recognition.
As a DM I keep waiting for Tools to help me manage my game better. Dice are nice, but let's focus on the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker. Those are what the whole character sheet stuff was developed for. I care less about the 'Life Domain Cleric', which affects one player of my group, than the builder/tracker which affects every player in my group.
TLDR; 1. Improve public perception of work being done by posting more detailed changelogs more often. 2. Improve public perception by clearly identifying the teams (character sheet team, dice team, etc) and then providing better insight into area those teams are working on. 3. Improve the DM tools we use every single session: Encounter Builder/Combat Tracker
Funny how I see so many of these posts too...people who ARE experts who say the pace of the updates is slow. Curious...
But that aside I do think that a lot of people want the tools to work well as they use DnD Beyond by itself to run a lot of games. IRL play I don't use a VTT so the tools help me with the flow of the table.
The pace of updates is definitely slow. I'm not excusing DDB on this front. What I don't get is the desire for drip-feed status updates of "fixed a database bug", "moved file server to a new host", "greased the SQL pipe" or "frog-blasted the vent core". Those updates are totally meaningless to the vast majority of users, and prior experience with a great many video games shows me that users will not accept "look at all this backend stuff we did!" as an excuse for being sluggardly about the front-end stuff they want. No amount of "fixed the database" or "fixed the API" status notes will get them off the hook, so why waste someone's time with an extensive, exhaustive changelog that takes several full workweeks of man-hours to sort and organize every month?
It's also worth noting that everyone has wildly different ideas of what needs to be the next focus for improvement. ChessMess wants a hard focus on the Encounter Builder/Tracker, because those tools are super useful to him as a DM and he's upset further development on them has been sidelined in favor of forcing Tasha's Cauldron down the system's throat with a plunger. That's absolutely valid, and a good point. Me? Even as a DM, I don't really give a single hamster deuce about the Combat Tracker and the Encounter Builder is nice for organization but not really necessary. What I am absolutely, positively, beyond-doubt BEYOND ******* DESPERATE FOR(!!!) is sweeping improvements to character customization and homebrew. It drives me insane, knowing that three quarters of the Cool Shit I'd like to do as both a player and an occasional DM is pretty much completely off the table, and most of the rest only functions via bass-ackwards jank-as-hell workarounds that require vastly more effort than they bloody well should. Importing third-party content to DDB via the homebrew system is usually impossible, as is creating anything original to oneself that is more than just reshuffling things already hard-coded into the game.
I could say "I don't give a shit about the Encounter BuildTracker, FIX HOMEBREW ALREADY!", but that would be categorically unfair to ChessMess. He could say "I don't give a shit about homebrew, finish the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker", and it'd be unfair to me. We could all say "Literally nobody cares about VTT integration on DDB, stop ******* chasing it and improve your core website functionality first", and it wouldn't be fair to all the people who're absolutely desperate for a One Stop Shop D&D service that handles their characters, their rules/book references, and their VTT needs in one place. However sadly misinformed I personally believe those folks to be.
it's impossible for a software developer to win, with that kind of wild divergence in requirements. But they sure as shit can lose, and the super slow pace of development currently in place is a great way to lose. It's why I wish there was at least a small team whose dedicated task was churning out low-hanging fruit user improvements and/or implementation of older PHB/DMG content/rules that's never been properly integrated into the system. Where the hell is Slow Natural Healing, DDB? Or any of the other myriad of optional rules none of us can use because the character sheet automatically overrides those rules?
The pace of updates is definitely slow. I'm not excusing DDB on this front. What I don't get is the desire for drip-feed status updates of "fixed a database bug", "moved file server to a new host", "greased the SQL pipe" or "frog-blasted the vent core". Those updates are totally meaningless to the vast majority of users, and prior experience with a great many video games shows me that users will not accept "look at all this backend stuff we did!" as an excuse for being sluggardly about the front-end stuff they want. No amount of "fixed the database" or "fixed the API" status notes will get them off the hook, so why waste someone's time with an extensive, exhaustive changelog that takes several full workweeks of man-hours to sort and organize every month?
It's also worth noting that everyone has wildly different ideas of what needs to be the next focus for improvement. ChessMess wants a hard focus on the Encounter Builder/Tracker, because those tools are super useful to him as a DM and he's upset further development on them has been sidelined in favor of forcing Tasha's Cauldron down the system's throat with a plunger. That's absolutely valid, and a good point. Me? Even as a DM, I don't really give a single hamster deuce about the Combat Tracker and the Encounter Builder is nice for organization but not really necessary. What I am absolutely, positively, beyond-doubt BEYOND ****ING DESPERATE FOR(!!!) is sweeping improvements to character customization and homebrew. It drives me insane, knowing that three quarters of the Cool Shit I'd like to do as both a player and an occasional DM is pretty much completely off the table, and most of the rest only functions via bass-ackwards jank-as-hell workarounds that require vastly more effort than they bloody well should. Importing third-party content to DDB via the homebrew system is usually impossible, as is creating anything original to oneself that is more than just reshuffling things already hard-coded into the game.
I could say "I don't give a shit about the Encounter BuildTracker, FIX HOMEBREW ALREADY!", but that would be categorically unfair to ChessMess. He could say "I don't give a shit about homebrew, finish the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker", and it'd be unfair to me. We could all say "Literally nobody cares about VTT integration on DDB, stop ****ing chasing it and improve your core website functionality first", and it wouldn't be fair to all the people who're absolutely desperate for a One Stop Shop D&D service that handles their characters, their rules/book references, and their VTT needs in one place. However sadly misinformed I personally believe those folks to be.
it's impossible for a software developer to win, with that kind of wild divergence in requirements. But they sure as shit can lose, and the super slow pace of development currently in place is a great way to lose. It's why I wish there was at least a small team whose dedicated task was churning out low-hanging fruit user improvements and/or implementation of older PHB/DMG content/rules that's never been properly integrated into the system. Where the hell is Slow Natural Healing, DDB? Or any of the other myriad of optional rules none of us can use because the character sheet automatically overrides those rules?
This a great point....we don't have clear line of sight on whats on the priority list at all. Adam stated (on your post which I found very well written from both you and him) that they did have a focus on tools as they were using the feature request thing (Which is like 4 years old at this point) to drive what they are working on to some extent.
I hear a wide variety of things that people want...but it never comes across in a single clarified voice. Its always a lot of different things. I personally agree with you as my top priority is:
1. Homebrew classes
2. Combat Tracker
3. DMG features (Slow healing, spell points, etc...)
However, it seems that those who use Beyond as just a compendium/character sheet system they are happy as they have all they need from the service....while a good chunk of others want more.
Path of Exile's developer, Grinding Gear Games, released a very interesting and informative article back in January detailing how they generate their patch notes, i.e. the 'Change Log" for a video game. How Patch Notes Get Made, by the man responsible for assembling patch notes documents that look a whole lot like that list of programmer's Deep Speech for Foundry. The major takeaway is that it takes a senior developer roughly 80 hours - two full work weeks - to collect, collate, translate, and transcribe raw changelog data into user-readable patch notes, and much of that is him badgering other people to give him the data he needs.
For a game like Path of Exile, those comprehensive and highly detailed patch notes are absolutely invaluable and those are eighty man-hours well spent.
For software like DDB? Especially if the call is for Monthly Updates? I don't know if demanding someone devote fully half of their working time each month to assembling a comprehensive prettified document like that Foundry changelog is a great use of developer time. Now sure, a DDB changelog may not take eighty hours to assemble...but the PoE document doesn't bother describing all the backend, under-the-hood changes the Foundry document did, which the overwhelming majority of players will completely ignore. If you're looking for a comprehensive, highly-edited document describing every change made to every line of code in DDB, it'll take no small amount of effort.
Would we rather that effort be directed to Patch Notes for DDB, or to patching DDB? That's my primary concern.
There's always commit notes (e.g. https://gitlab.com/foundrynet/dnd5e/activity) but those are usually unusable unless you already know something about what change you're looking for.
Would we rather that effort be directed to Patch Notes for DDB, or to patching DDB? That's my primary concern.
Why would you make the devs write the patch notes??? They already handle Jira tickets with descriptions, etc... the devs don't have to be the ones making the ChangeLog. If a two man team of FoundryVTT can develop AND write the patch notes of the quality they have....well... it speaks to a good process.
I've done my fair share of software engineering, but I would want release notes to make it clear what a GENERAL USER is getting out of the release.
Your example is primarily for the module developers, describing all sorts of back end changes which are of little use to a general player/GM who just wants to use the tool to play their games.
True, I guess this is my technical side showing. I like to know how the platform as a whole is growing. A non-technical general user probably wouldn't read a changelog though. They'd want the YouTube videos and the site Articles that tell them about new features, no?
They'd want the YouTube videos and the site Articles that tell them about new features, no?
I've tried watching dev diaries on youtube. They are too waffly.
I want a quick list of the improvements, so I can scan them in less than 5 minutes (maybe even less than 1 minute) to see if there's anything that catches my eye.
They'd want the YouTube videos and the site Articles that tell them about new features, no?
I've tried watching dev diaries on youtube. They are too waffly.
I want a quick list of the improvements, so I can scan them in less than 5 minutes (maybe even less than 1 minute) to see if there's anything that catches my eye.
They'd want the YouTube videos and the site Articles that tell them about new features, no?
I've tried watching dev diaries on youtube. They are too waffly.
I want a quick list of the improvements, so I can scan them in less than 5 minutes (maybe even less than 1 minute) to see if there's anything that catches my eye.
ChessMess' original point behind all of this was that DDB's changelog is poorly maintained and not terribly informative. Which seems to be true. It's simply not a priority for the team.
ChessMess' original point behind all of this was that DDB's changelog is poorly maintained and not terribly informative. Which seems to be true. It's simply not a priority for the team.
I like that they try at least....but the last one was like 4 sentences long. I am not trying call that person out or anything but if your changelog for both Feb and March are like 7 total sentences its a bit...whelming I agree.
I am not sure what the norm is for these things though so I could be expecting too much.
ChessMess' original point behind all of this was that DDB's changelog is poorly maintained and not terribly informative. Which seems to be true. It's simply not a priority for the team.
I like that they try at least....but the last one was like 4 sentences long. I am not trying call that person out or anything but if your changelog for both Feb and March are like 7 total sentences its a bit...whelming I agree.
I am not sure what the norm is for these things though so I could be expecting too much.
And all of the development in 2021 has been only on the player tools app or digital dice (which I don't use because I use beyond20 + VTT).
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I do, but has to be said it is mainly because fantastic beyond20 tranfers all those rules and dice rolls to Roll20 (used for maps, tokens, combat tracker)/Discord (voice, dicerolls)
I'm currently running 4 campaigns, one of which is on this very forum, and playing in about 3 others using nothing but DnD Beyond.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Well I've made a significant investment in the DDB platform buying a legendary bundle and follow up books, plus master tier subscription. I've brought multiple people to the platform because I am the DM and they in turn have subscribed and bought stuff. So I'm invested in the success of the platform.
I'm also a software engineer by day, working in React/AWS/WebApi daily. Been doing software development for over 30 years. So I know the pain points.
And yet I also find the pace of changes/updates to be excruciating. The only thing I have to judge by is the ChangeLog, and it's clear that it is not being properly maintained. Which is why I wanted to point them to a VS Code style monthly release, where they could put in everything that they do. I know things are being done, but it's not being communicated to the audience. Yes I watch the Dev Updates, and it's nice but after awhile it's similar with what is 'upcoming' repeated over and over.
It would go a LONG way toward public perception if you just did detailed change logs. Include the fact that you reworked some server API's, or indexed the database, etc. Those are valid things and take time and deserve at least of modicum of recognition.
As a DM I keep waiting for Tools to help me manage my game better. Dice are nice, but let's focus on the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker. Those are what the whole character sheet stuff was developed for. I care less about the 'Life Domain Cleric', which affects one player of my group, than the builder/tracker which affects every player in my group.
TLDR;
1. Improve public perception of work being done by posting more detailed changelogs more often.
2. Improve public perception by clearly identifying the teams (character sheet team, dice team, etc) and then providing better insight into area those teams are working on.
3. Improve the DM tools we use every single session: Encounter Builder/Combat Tracker
Funny how I see so many of these posts too...people who ARE experts who say the pace of the updates is slow. Curious...
But that aside I do think that a lot of people want the tools to work well as they use DnD Beyond by itself to run a lot of games. IRL play I don't use a VTT so the tools help me with the flow of the table.
Fantasy Grounds for the win. Or good old hardcovers, graphite and pulp work best for me.
The pace of updates is definitely slow. I'm not excusing DDB on this front. What I don't get is the desire for drip-feed status updates of "fixed a database bug", "moved file server to a new host", "greased the SQL pipe" or "frog-blasted the vent core". Those updates are totally meaningless to the vast majority of users, and prior experience with a great many video games shows me that users will not accept "look at all this backend stuff we did!" as an excuse for being sluggardly about the front-end stuff they want. No amount of "fixed the database" or "fixed the API" status notes will get them off the hook, so why waste someone's time with an extensive, exhaustive changelog that takes several full workweeks of man-hours to sort and organize every month?
It's also worth noting that everyone has wildly different ideas of what needs to be the next focus for improvement. ChessMess wants a hard focus on the Encounter Builder/Tracker, because those tools are super useful to him as a DM and he's upset further development on them has been sidelined in favor of forcing Tasha's Cauldron down the system's throat with a plunger. That's absolutely valid, and a good point. Me? Even as a DM, I don't really give a single hamster deuce about the Combat Tracker and the Encounter Builder is nice for organization but not really necessary. What I am absolutely, positively, beyond-doubt BEYOND ******* DESPERATE FOR(!!!) is sweeping improvements to character customization and homebrew. It drives me insane, knowing that three quarters of the Cool Shit I'd like to do as both a player and an occasional DM is pretty much completely off the table, and most of the rest only functions via bass-ackwards jank-as-hell workarounds that require vastly more effort than they bloody well should. Importing third-party content to DDB via the homebrew system is usually impossible, as is creating anything original to oneself that is more than just reshuffling things already hard-coded into the game.
I could say "I don't give a shit about the Encounter BuildTracker, FIX HOMEBREW ALREADY!", but that would be categorically unfair to ChessMess. He could say "I don't give a shit about homebrew, finish the Encounter Builder and Combat Tracker", and it'd be unfair to me. We could all say "Literally nobody cares about VTT integration on DDB, stop ******* chasing it and improve your core website functionality first", and it wouldn't be fair to all the people who're absolutely desperate for a One Stop Shop D&D service that handles their characters, their rules/book references, and their VTT needs in one place. However sadly misinformed I personally believe those folks to be.
it's impossible for a software developer to win, with that kind of wild divergence in requirements. But they sure as shit can lose, and the super slow pace of development currently in place is a great way to lose. It's why I wish there was at least a small team whose dedicated task was churning out low-hanging fruit user improvements and/or implementation of older PHB/DMG content/rules that's never been properly integrated into the system. Where the hell is Slow Natural Healing, DDB? Or any of the other myriad of optional rules none of us can use because the character sheet automatically overrides those rules?
Please do not contact or message me.
This a great point....we don't have clear line of sight on whats on the priority list at all. Adam stated (on your post which I found very well written from both you and him) that they did have a focus on tools as they were using the feature request thing (Which is like 4 years old at this point) to drive what they are working on to some extent.
I hear a wide variety of things that people want...but it never comes across in a single clarified voice. Its always a lot of different things. I personally agree with you as my top priority is:
1. Homebrew classes
2. Combat Tracker
3. DMG features (Slow healing, spell points, etc...)
However, it seems that those who use Beyond as just a compendium/character sheet system they are happy as they have all they need from the service....while a good chunk of others want more.
Not asking for a drip feed of updates. But I see nothing wrong with sharing all the details. Here is a changelog that is a good example:
https://foundryvtt.com/releases/0.8.0
Path of Exile's developer, Grinding Gear Games, released a very interesting and informative article back in January detailing how they generate their patch notes, i.e. the 'Change Log" for a video game. How Patch Notes Get Made, by the man responsible for assembling patch notes documents that look a whole lot like that list of programmer's Deep Speech for Foundry. The major takeaway is that it takes a senior developer roughly 80 hours - two full work weeks - to collect, collate, translate, and transcribe raw changelog data into user-readable patch notes, and much of that is him badgering other people to give him the data he needs.
For a game like Path of Exile, those comprehensive and highly detailed patch notes are absolutely invaluable and those are eighty man-hours well spent.
For software like DDB? Especially if the call is for Monthly Updates? I don't know if demanding someone devote fully half of their working time each month to assembling a comprehensive prettified document like that Foundry changelog is a great use of developer time. Now sure, a DDB changelog may not take eighty hours to assemble...but the PoE document doesn't bother describing all the backend, under-the-hood changes the Foundry document did, which the overwhelming majority of players will completely ignore. If you're looking for a comprehensive, highly-edited document describing every change made to every line of code in DDB, it'll take no small amount of effort.
Would we rather that effort be directed to Patch Notes for DDB, or to patching DDB? That's my primary concern.
Please do not contact or message me.
There's always commit notes (e.g. https://gitlab.com/foundrynet/dnd5e/activity) but those are usually unusable unless you already know something about what change you're looking for.
Why would you make the devs write the patch notes??? They already handle Jira tickets with descriptions, etc... the devs don't have to be the ones making the ChangeLog. If a two man team of FoundryVTT can develop AND write the patch notes of the quality they have....well... it speaks to a good process.
I've done my fair share of software engineering, but I would want release notes to make it clear what a GENERAL USER is getting out of the release.
Your example is primarily for the module developers, describing all sorts of back end changes which are of little use to a general player/GM who just wants to use the tool to play their games.
True, I guess this is my technical side showing. I like to know how the platform as a whole is growing. A non-technical general user probably wouldn't read a changelog though. They'd want the YouTube videos and the site Articles that tell them about new features, no?
I've tried watching dev diaries on youtube. They are too waffly.
I want a quick list of the improvements, so I can scan them in less than 5 minutes (maybe even less than 1 minute) to see if there's anything that catches my eye.
tah dah!!!!
https://www.dndbeyond.com/changelog
and back to the beginning.... Ok, think I'm done with the formus and site for awhile
I think the changelog content makes the work put into those features... very unimpressive.
ChessMess' original point behind all of this was that DDB's changelog is poorly maintained and not terribly informative. Which seems to be true. It's simply not a priority for the team.
Please do not contact or message me.
I like that they try at least....but the last one was like 4 sentences long. I am not trying call that person out or anything but if your changelog for both Feb and March are like 7 total sentences its a bit...whelming I agree.
I am not sure what the norm is for these things though so I could be expecting too much.
And all of the development in 2021 has been only on the player tools app or digital dice (which I don't use because I use beyond20 + VTT).