Each base power has a Basic form, which can be used at will and is tuned as such. It also has an Exertion, which costs either a hit die or a psi die to use.
It's an oddity of 5e that you can't upcast cantrips, that would be an interesting design space to work in. However, there's nothing inherently 'psionic' about your idea, it's really just an expansion of metamagic.
This is the part that kills me; Yurei keeps talking about how she wants Psionics, complains that it isn't really really in the game and then when people point out to her that the things she's asking for already exist he get's butt hurt about how it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard that she thinks is required for it to be really really psionics.
This is the part that kills me; Yurei keeps talking about how he wants Psionics, complains that it isn't really really in the game and then when people point out to him that the things he's asking for already exist he get's butt hurt about how it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard that he thinks is required for it to be really really psionics.
yurei isn't wrong that there isn't a psion class. that's not arbitrary. the fact that they don't want to bend to "flavor is free," is their prerogative and only as big a part of your decision making as you make it.
edit: furthermore, disintegration and mind domination stuff aside, there's still plenty creative space left over to explore TK and ESP and energy manipulation than what we've been given. you can hand over a flying sword to an aberrant mind sorc and tell the player to call it telekinetics, but that doesn't mean the box is checked for that player's vision of a psionic character. the devs can tell us what we want or they can ask what we want.
This is the part that kills me; Yurei keeps talking about how he wants Psionics, complains that it isn't really really in the game and then when people point out to him that the things he's asking for already exist he get's butt hurt about how it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard that he thinks is required for it to be really really psionics.
yurei isn't wrong that there isn't a psion class. that's not arbitrary. the fact that they don't want to bend to "flavor is free," is their prerogative and only as big a part of your decision making as you make it.
To which I would point out that there is a point where what they're looking for enters into the realm of the impractical; Like what they want is something that can never actually exist because they've fallen in love with a fantastical concept without ever stopping to think about the actual mechanical systems required to implement it given that they seem to loathe magic as it exists within 5e,
Like WotC took a stab at this years ago with the Mystic class which was going to be the Psi class of the game but owing to the fact that it was a ridiculous mess that felt like a class that was built backwards (many sub specs funneling into a core class as opposed to a class that diverges into many paths) and was roundly rejected by the masses because once again: it was a hot mess.
So the developers took a step back, looked at what the classes were once you stripped away the "psionics" sparkles and figured out what the best fit for some of them would be: psi-warrior was clearly fighter, Soul knife fit within the perview of rogues and the Abberant mind worked as a Psion analogue despite the bleating to the contrary.
Yurei's pronouns are she/her, I believe. (carry on)
She/they, actually. Heh, or such is what I put in my work signature recently with the name change. I appreciate it either way. I prefer she/her but have no issue with they/them for people who aren't comfortable ascribing feminine pronouns to someone who looks/sounds the way I do. Heh, they just don't have a she/they button on my little buttons website I found, and I don't have the artistic skill to make my own. Ah well.
This is the part that kills me; Yurei keeps talking about how he wants Psionics, complains that it isn't really really in the game and then when people point out to him that the things he's asking for already exist he get's butt hurt about how it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard that he thinks is required for it to be really really psionics.
yurei isn't wrong that there isn't a psion class. that's not arbitrary. the fact that they don't want to bend to "flavor is free," is their prerogative and only as big a part of your decision making as you make it.
Flavor is free, yes. It's also meaningless when mechanics don't back it up. Can I use a psicrystal as a spellcasting focus, describe vocal components as chanting mantras, and all that other set-dressing jazz? Sure. Can I call spell slots 'mental endurance' and pretend I'm counting up from zero instead of down from three? Of course. Can I come up with "psi" justifications for a far larger percentage of spells than most other people? Also sure. Can I easily homebrew a bevy of "psychic" spells at any spell level? Yep, homebrewing spells is one of the easiest ways to use the homebrew tools and I'm fairly good at spell design for an amateur.
Does any of this make a character actually feel like someone with psychic abilities? Not in the goddamn slightest. You're still a spellcaster using spell slots to cast spells, and Knutt B. Utter the wizard that doofus Tim who's never taken a game of D&D seriously yet is running is still worth five of any character that does these things at the table. The mechanics of the system tell the tale. It's also why clerics don't really feel like servants of the divine - or at least why their spellcasting doesn't feel like it has any-damn-thing to do with their faith. A cleric's "divine" spellcasting is just a white deck instead of a red/blue deck. A sorcerer's spellcasting is a terrible reflection of their alleged "innate power" - how the hell does a sorcerer who's learning their magic through intuition and feeling know they need to scream a specific faux-Latin word loud enough to be heard from space and find a twenty-pound sack of penguin spleens before their "innate arcane might" will work?
Universal spellcasting rules were a mistake. Yes, it tremendously simplifies the overall system, but it also largely eliminates the need for more than one spellcasting class. You could flush sorc, bard, warlock, druid, and cleric completely, put pointless little subclasses in wizard to accomodate things like a cleric's weapons and armor or a bard's musicality, and say "flavor is free - make yourself into whatever you feel like". The forum would erupt in infinite nerdrage if the dev team did that though.
So why is "flavor is free" the only solution people are willing to accept when it comes to developing psychic characters?
I mean, an effect-based class is perfectly possible. It amounts to "choose a set of base effects for your character, then learn spells from a specialized list. When you cast those spells, you have to choose an effect type; damage type (if any) and status effects (if any) are determined by your effect type".
This is the part that kills me; Yurei keeps talking about how he wants Psionics, complains that it isn't really really in the game and then when people point out to him that the things he's asking for already exist he get's butt hurt about how it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard that he thinks is required for it to be really really psionics.
yurei isn't wrong that there isn't a psion class. that's not arbitrary. the fact that they don't want to bend to "flavor is free," is their prerogative and only as big a part of your decision making as you make it.
To which I would point out that there is a point where what they're looking for enters into the realm of the impractical; Like what they want is something that can never actually exist because they've fallen in love with a fantastical concept without ever stopping to think about the actual mechanical systems required to implement it given that they seem to loathe magic as it exists within 5e,
have you got a vested interest in the loudest voice getting the most attention? you can facepalm at everything, but should you? shrug.
Like WotC took a stab at this years ago with the Mystic class which was going to be the Psi class of the game but owing to the fact that it was a ridiculous mess that felt like a class that was built backwards (many sub specs funneling into a core class as opposed to a class that diverges into many paths) and was roundly rejected by the masses because once again: it was a hot mess.
So the developers took a step back, looked at what the classes were once you stripped away the "psionics" sparkles and figured out what the best fit for some of them would be: psi-warrior was clearly fighter, Soul knife fit within the perview of rogues and the Abberant mind worked as a Psion analogue despite the bleating to the contrary.
yeah, they're obviously not going with a new class after tapping psi warrior and soul knife (and aberrant mind (or goo patron)?). we know that's locked in and it precludes a new class showing up in the next PHB. but after that? they've shown some interest in mind flayer stuff lately so i can't think they're done with psionics. if your point is that they already playtested mystic, then you missed the video where they stated outright [link unavailable, searching] that they sometimes put weird stuff out for public test that would never pass internal test, just to make more waves and get more obvious results. that stuff is then put back on the shelf to show up later. why "settle" for subclasses, when this thread is here specifically for not settling?
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Because we don't have one and the game desperately needs one.
Sure. I believe subclasses are both overused and underbaked - the devs try to lean on subclasses to avoid the class bloat of older editions, but subclasses are nowhere near impactful enough to let them get away with this. My favorite archer I've ever built was a theoretical four-class multiclass for an old Build Throwdown; I liked the way Yferna fell out, but one shouldn't need to split so heavily and level so high to get a functional archer.
If subclasses were allowed to actually change the way a class plays, maybe the intent to use subclasses to reduce class bloat would work better. But subclasses aren't allowed to change any of the core rules for a class, which means they're nothing but pointless bolt-ons that fundamentally can't change how you play the given class. Means an 'Archer' subclass of fighter or ranger wouldn't work any better than a "Psyker" subclass of sorc or wizard or whatever other dumb shit people want to foist psychic abilities off onto does. I mean, all you have to do is read the Arcane Archer subclass to know that 5e subclasses simply can't do what the dev team keeps trying to make them do.
EDIT: keep forgetting that DDB's forums are dumb and stupid and don't accept universal forum BBCode tagging.
why "settle" for subclasses, when this thread is here specifically for not settling?
Because there comes a point where you have to accept that the ship has sailed; Like what people want is largely covered by other extent classes and options with mostly terminology being the sticking point for most of the people who are still fighting for this at this point.
If subclasses were allowed to actually change the way a class plays, maybe the intent to use subclasses to reduce class bloat would work better. But subclasses aren't allowed to change any of the core rules for a class, which means they're nothing but pointless bolt-ons that fundamentally can't change how you play the given class. Means an 'Archer' subclass of fighter or ranger wouldn't work any better than a "Psyker" subclass of sorc or wizard or whatever other dumb shit people want to foist psychic abilities off onto does. I mean, all you have to do is read the Arcane Archer subclass to know that 5e subclasses simply can't do what the dev team keeps trying to make them do.
Literally every sub-class changes how the class plays by either offering additional options or modifiers on the extent abilities of said class.
Literally every sub-class changes how the class plays by either offering additional options or modifiers on the extent abilities of said class.
Horseshit. And/or semantics. Most subclasses are so bland and meaningless you can leave them unselected entirely and the way your character feels to play wouldn't change. Adding one minor action you can do two or three times a day does not make a character feel different than its core class. EVERY fighter subclass save Battlemaster, EVERY rogue subclass save Arcane Trickster (and Trickster cheats by indulging in magic), every Sorcerer subclass period no exceptions, every warlock subclass, most barbarian subs, most cleric subs...I could go on. None of them make playing the character any goddamn different than playing the same character with no subclass at all.
Aberrant Mind sorcerer is mechanically the most powerful Origin in the entire sorcerer class. In some ways it actually comes close to rivaling wizzerd. Playing an Aberrant Mind feels no different at all than playing a regular-ass sorcerer with no Origin selected whatsoever save that there's less pressure on your sharply limited spell picks to get 'thematic' stuff. All the dumb "flavor" nonsense people keep saying makes the Aberrant Mind totez legyt a psychic character works just as well on the base sorcerer class with no Origin whatsoever because there is zero connection between that Fluff and the sorcerer's Crunch, and precisely zero of the Aberrant's other abilities do one single hair of a thing to change the way the sorcerer base class plays.
It's not about power. Never has been. If all someone wanted was power they'd just play Aberrant and be done with it. It's about feel, the tale of the table, and whether the character plays the way it's supposed to. If the character doesn't feel right to play, then it doesn't matter how strong or weak the character is - playing that character won't be satisfying.
Aberrant Mind sorcerer is mechanically the most powerful Origin in the entire sorcerer class. In some ways it actually comes close to rivaling wizzerd. Playing an Aberrant Mind feels no different at all than playing a regular-ass sorcerer with no Origin selected whatsoever save that there's less pressure on your sharply limited spell picks to get 'thematic' stuff.
Um... did you actually look at the subclass? One of your big complaints about aberrant mind as a psion is "But then I'm still bellowing Magic Words as loud as I possibly can while carrying around the twenty-pound bag of penguin spleens so I can use my kineticist abilities maybe three times a day tops because Spell Slots."
Now, look at the level 6 subclass feature 'psionic sorcery'. Read what it says. Explain how it doesn't respond to that criticism.
Literally every sub-class changes how the class plays by either offering additional options or modifiers on the extent abilities of said class.
Horseshit. And/or semantics. Most subclasses are so bland and meaningless you can leave them unselected entirely and the way your character feels to play wouldn't change. Adding one minor action you can do two or three times a day does not make a character feel different than its core class. EVERY fighter subclass save Battlemaster, EVERY rogue subclass save Arcane Trickster (and Trickster cheats by indulging in magic), every Sorcerer subclass period no exceptions, every warlock subclass, most barbarian subs, most cleric subs...I could go on. None of them make playing the character any goddamn different than playing the same character with no subclass at all.
Aberrant Mind sorcerer is mechanically the most powerful Origin in the entire sorcerer class. In some ways it actually comes close to rivaling wizzerd. Playing an Aberrant Mind feels no different at all than playing a regular-ass sorcerer with no Origin selected whatsoever save that there's less pressure on your sharply limited spell picks to get 'thematic' stuff. All the dumb "flavor" nonsense people keep saying makes the Aberrant Mind totez legyt a psychic character works just as well on the base sorcerer class with no Origin whatsoever because there is zero connection between that Fluff and the sorcerer's Crunch, and precisely zero of the Aberrant's other abilities do one single hair of a thing to change the way the sorcerer base class plays.
It's not about power. Never has been. If all someone wanted was power they'd just play Aberrant and be done with it. It's about feel, the tale of the table, and whether the character plays the way it's supposed to. If the character doesn't feel right to play, then it doesn't matter how strong or weak the character is - playing that character won't be satisfying.
Ok, I'm calling it now: This is either a bit or a case of you having never actually played this game in any serious capacity.
Which if the former is sort of conerning given your join date and the fact that you've averaged 1500 posts a year.
Um... did you actually look at the subclass? One of your big complaints about aberrant mind as a psion is "But then I'm still bellowing Magic Words as loud as I possibly can while carrying around the twenty-pound bag of penguin spleens so I can use my kineticist abilities maybe three times a day tops because Spell Slots."
Now, look at the level 6 subclass feature 'psionic sorcery'. Read what it says. Explain how it doesn't respond to that criticism.
Of course I've read it. Psionic Sorcery requires you to cast a spell gained through your Psionic Spells feature. Psionic Spells provides one kineticist ability - Telekinesis, at 9th level. The rest of its abilities are niche mind arts or Icky Goo Monster spells. The feature allowing you to replace those spells has been nonfunctional in DDB for four years now and requires homebrew to use, and the Divination and Enchantment schools of magic provide no kineticist abilities. Psionic Sorcery also has sharply limited usage, even when the player realizes they can trade the spell slot they would spend on the spell for the sorcery points needed to "psionically sorcerize" the spell as a bonus action. The Aberrant sorcerer either gets to "psionically" cast its spells only once or twice a day, or it gets to forget every other spell it has exists because all its spell slots get digested into SP to fuel Psionic Sorcery.
Can you use the Aberrant Mind to half-ass a mind arts specialist with no TK, provided you actually ever see level 6? Sure, I suppose, so long as you're also okay with being an Icky Goo Monster and with all your mind arts abilities being actively terrible. Can you use the Aberrant Mind to create any kind of kineticist? No. Will you consider this a meaningless quibble? Of course, because in your mind it's all pointless and nobody should care about/want to play psychic characters anyways. It's all just Magic(C), and being a Magic Man is way cooler than being psychic.
EDIT: Lemme make this plain, Pantagruel. I don't like the use of spell slots and spellcasting mechanics as the gas Gauge for psychic abilities. I have no issue with psychic abilities being metered some other way - I actually think the original Psionic Die, the one that stepped up or down in size as your abilities waxed and waned throughout the day, was an interesting idea they could've developed further - but I see no reason you have to shackle psychic characters to a system actively and intentionally designed to prevent the creation of precisely the sort of character one is trying to make when they create a psychic character. Wizards and the D&D 5e development team do not wantyou to turn spellcasters into psychic characters. They want you to cast spells, with your spell boi, because moarspelz.
Ok, I'm calling it now: This is either a bit or a case of you having never actually played this game in any serious capacity.
Which if the former is sort of conerning given your join date and the fact that you've averaged 1500 posts a year.
Explain to me one single way playing a Champion provides a meaningfully different table experience than playing a basic fighter.
One single way playing a Berserker provides a meaningfully different table experience than playing a basic barbarian.
Give me one single Cleric domain that actually changes what you're trying to do as a cleric.
Point me to one single warlock patron that changes the warlock's play loop or dynamics.
You think adding some extra random fluffy nonsense tacked onto the side of the base class changes the way the base class plays. It does not. All it does is tack on often-meaningless extras that don't change the core gameplay of the class in question whatsoever and are only useful in niche situations. Can a player choose to focus on those things in roleplay? Sure. Anyone can roleplay anything. "fLaVoR is fReE", as everyone keeps insisting. Does that mean the majority of subclasses have any meaningful impact on the way the core class operates? No.
Again - "meaningful." I.e. you-the-player feel like you've made a real choice with actual weight when you do the thing your subclass lets you do that nobody else's does. Virtually nothing in 5e allows the players' choices to have the remotest weight on their characters' abilities. An Aberrant sorc plays exactly the same way a Dragonblood sorc does - like a basic sorcerer. They both rush to Fly, Fireball, and Counterspell and then proceed to cast nothing else whatsoever for the rest of the campaign. The Dragonblood flavors their spells as ephemeral dragon parts manifesting to produce their spell effects, the Aberrant flavors their spells as gross-ass mutations producing distortions in reality, but they both do exactly the same things in exactly the same ways. And when two choices have exactly the same result, they are not 'choices' at all.
Explain to me one single way playing a Champion provides a meaningfully different table experience than playing a basic fighter.
At level 3 you are literally doubling your number of crits, which when playing with a half orc means you can be doing *stupid* amounts of damage much more consistently then anyone else, particularly if you can figure out a way to finagle advantage on a regular basis. Further, unlike the other fighter subclasses you are effectively "resource free" in that all of your stuff is just automatically hard bound into your gameplay.
If you actually read the class you would know this.
One single way playing a Berserker provides a meaningfully different table experience than playing a basic barbarian.
The Berserker has the dangerous ability to progress their rage to a higher tier that thereby allows them to make additional attacks per round and which is a much, much more powerful ability then most people realize since it means that you can maintain your rage state while still having a main action that they can perform (IE a skilled action, drinking a potion, Dodge action ect.). This get's even dumber if you combine it with the sentinel feat since it lets you continue to attack, dodge and lock down the movement of your opponent.
In addition they gain charm/fear immunity while raging at level 6 and Retaliation at level 14 (combined with their physical damage resistances) makes them real mean in a duel.
Again, if you had read the book that's been around for a decade you would know this.
Give me one single Cleric domain that actually changes what you're trying to do as a cleric.
Clerics basically fall into one of two schools of play; Zap clerics and Bonk clerics and this is a decision that comes into effect as soon as you pick your domain, With Zap clerics (IE light, knowledge, trickery) being more about being a cantrip flinging, wisdom heavy character while being a Bonk cleric (IE war, Life or tempest) means that you are going to be wading into the thick of combat and relying more on swinging a melee weapon to do most of your work while casting supporting magic on your allies and shying away from offensive ones that focus on saving throws and spell hit.
If you actually read the PHB which has been around for 10 years you would know this.
Point me to one single warlock patron that changes the warlock's play loop or dynamics.
Hexblade.
Now I've done as you asked and explained things to you so I'd like you to clarify this for everyone here: Is this a bit or are you actually this ignorant of the classes and how games are actually played?
EDIT: Lemme make this plain, Pantagruel. I don't like the use of spell slots and spellcasting mechanics as the gas Gauge for psychic abilities.
Lemme make this plain: I guarantee any alternative to spell slots and spellcasting will be atrocious, because spell slots is how 5e does cool powers and thus any alternative that doesn't use spell slots is required to be worse. Spell slots are a terrible mechanic that should be removed from the game, but that's not going to happen in 5e. In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with psionics -- spell slots are just as terrible a mechanic for spellcaster as they are for psionic abilities.
EDIT: Lemme make this plain, Pantagruel. I don't like the use of spell slots and spellcasting mechanics as the gas Gauge for psychic abilities.
Lemme make this plain: I guarantee any alternative to spell slots and spellcasting will be atrocious, because spell slots is how 5e does cool powers and thus any alternative that doesn't use spell slots is required to be worse. Spell slots are a terrible mechanic that should be removed from the game, but that's not going to happen in 5e. In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with psionics -- spell slots are just as terrible a mechanic for spellcaster as they are for psionic abilities.
Even if it's true that other power structures aren't going to be as powerful as standard-issue spellcasters, there's plenty of room for "just fine" before you get to "atrocious". WotC aren't going to make an alternate power system deliberately bad just to prove some kind of point. They are, I admit, unlikely to make another alternate power system at all, but that's not because it cannot be done. It's because 5e's design goals are deliberately conservative. Management likely got scared by the poor reception of 4e, so any serious experimentalism was out. And now, 5e's doing great, so why change?
However, if they want to add classes to 5e (which they may not), alternate power systems are the only way they can go. 5e already has too many spellcasting classes; it's basically impossible to differentiate a new one without giving it new toys. See the artificer -- caster, but also with a bunch of powers that really define the class. And there's really not much room to do new things on the non-caster end.
We're never going to see spell slots go away -- they're one of the base assumptions of the genre that is D&D. 4e sort of tried, but only sort of. But there's no reason to think It's always going to be the only structure. Warlocks are already part-way there.
EDIT: Lemme make this plain, Pantagruel. I don't like the use of spell slots and spellcasting mechanics as the gas Gauge for psychic abilities.
Lemme make this plain: I guarantee any alternative to spell slots and spellcasting will be atrocious, because spell slots is how 5e does cool powers and thus any alternative that doesn't use spell slots is required to be worse. Spell slots are a terrible mechanic that should be removed from the game, but that's not going to happen in 5e. In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with psionics -- spell slots are just as terrible a mechanic for spellcaster as they are for psionic abilities.
Imo spell slots are better than most anything else that's practical for the general combat format. Mana pools or similar resource systems either encourage throwing the biggest punches you can or make those big punches so inefficient that they'd basically be traps in turn based combat and setting most things to uses per encounter just increases the gamey feeling as opposed to something like a real magic system. Softer games get away with more cinematic an stylized options, but by that point you're really getting into the other end of the old Ship of Theseus Problem: how much can you change a thing before it's become something fundamentally different? Spell slots allow for ones ultimate power level to progress without rendering earlier options wholly obsolete, plus they're easy to track mid combat which is a significant consideration given how much of a meme "the wizard takes half an hour to decide what spell to cast each turn" is.
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It's an oddity of 5e that you can't upcast cantrips, that would be an interesting design space to work in. However, there's nothing inherently 'psionic' about your idea, it's really just an expansion of metamagic.
This is the part that kills me; Yurei keeps talking about how she wants Psionics, complains that it isn't really really in the game and then when people point out to her that the things she's asking for already exist he get's butt hurt about how it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard that she thinks is required for it to be really really psionics.
Corrected for gender.
Yurei's pronouns are she/her, I believe. (carry on)
yurei isn't wrong that there isn't a psion class. that's not arbitrary. the fact that they don't want to bend to "flavor is free," is their prerogative and only as big a part of your decision making as you make it.
edit: furthermore, disintegration and mind domination stuff aside, there's still plenty creative space left over to explore TK and ESP and energy manipulation than what we've been given. you can hand over a flying sword to an aberrant mind sorc and tell the player to call it telekinetics, but that doesn't mean the box is checked for that player's vision of a psionic character. the devs can tell us what we want or they can ask what we want.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
To which I would point out that there is a point where what they're looking for enters into the realm of the impractical; Like what they want is something that can never actually exist because they've fallen in love with a fantastical concept without ever stopping to think about the actual mechanical systems required to implement it given that they seem to loathe magic as it exists within 5e,
Like WotC took a stab at this years ago with the Mystic class which was going to be the Psi class of the game but owing to the fact that it was a ridiculous mess that felt like a class that was built backwards (many sub specs funneling into a core class as opposed to a class that diverges into many paths) and was roundly rejected by the masses because once again: it was a hot mess.
So the developers took a step back, looked at what the classes were once you stripped away the "psionics" sparkles and figured out what the best fit for some of them would be: psi-warrior was clearly fighter, Soul knife fit within the perview of rogues and the Abberant mind worked as a Psion analogue despite the bleating to the contrary.
She/they, actually. Heh, or such is what I put in my work signature recently with the name change. I appreciate it either way. I prefer she/her but have no issue with they/them for people who aren't comfortable ascribing feminine pronouns to someone who looks/sounds the way I do. Heh, they just don't have a she/they button on my little buttons website I found, and I don't have the artistic skill to make my own. Ah well.
Flavor is free, yes. It's also meaningless when mechanics don't back it up. Can I use a psicrystal as a spellcasting focus, describe vocal components as chanting mantras, and all that other set-dressing jazz? Sure. Can I call spell slots 'mental endurance' and pretend I'm counting up from zero instead of down from three? Of course. Can I come up with "psi" justifications for a far larger percentage of spells than most other people? Also sure. Can I easily homebrew a bevy of "psychic" spells at any spell level? Yep, homebrewing spells is one of the easiest ways to use the homebrew tools and I'm fairly good at spell design for an amateur.
Does any of this make a character actually feel like someone with psychic abilities? Not in the goddamn slightest. You're still a spellcaster using spell slots to cast spells, and Knutt B. Utter the wizard that doofus Tim who's never taken a game of D&D seriously yet is running is still worth five of any character that does these things at the table. The mechanics of the system tell the tale. It's also why clerics don't really feel like servants of the divine - or at least why their spellcasting doesn't feel like it has any-damn-thing to do with their faith. A cleric's "divine" spellcasting is just a white deck instead of a red/blue deck. A sorcerer's spellcasting is a terrible reflection of their alleged "innate power" - how the hell does a sorcerer who's learning their magic through intuition and feeling know they need to scream a specific faux-Latin word loud enough to be heard from space and find a twenty-pound sack of penguin spleens before their "innate arcane might" will work?
Universal spellcasting rules were a mistake. Yes, it tremendously simplifies the overall system, but it also largely eliminates the need for more than one spellcasting class. You could flush sorc, bard, warlock, druid, and cleric completely, put pointless little subclasses in wizard to accomodate things like a cleric's weapons and armor or a bard's musicality, and say "flavor is free - make yourself into whatever you feel like". The forum would erupt in infinite nerdrage if the dev team did that though.
So why is "flavor is free" the only solution people are willing to accept when it comes to developing psychic characters?
Please do not contact or message me.
I mean, an effect-based class is perfectly possible. It amounts to "choose a set of base effects for your character, then learn spells from a specialized list. When you cast those spells, you have to choose an effect type; damage type (if any) and status effects (if any) are determined by your effect type".
So you agree that we Need an archer class.
Because we don't have one and the game desperately needs one.
have you got a vested interest in the loudest voice getting the most attention? you can facepalm at everything, but should you? shrug.
yeah, they're obviously not going with a new class after tapping psi warrior and soul knife (and aberrant mind (or goo patron)?). we know that's locked in and it precludes a new class showing up in the next PHB. but after that? they've shown some interest in mind flayer stuff lately so i can't think they're done with psionics. if your point is that they already playtested mystic, then you missed the video where they stated outright [link unavailable, searching] that they sometimes put weird stuff out for public test that would never pass internal test, just to make more waves and get more obvious results. that stuff is then put back on the shelf to show up later. why "settle" for subclasses, when this thread is here specifically for not settling?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Sure. I believe subclasses are both overused and underbaked - the devs try to lean on subclasses to avoid the class bloat of older editions, but subclasses are nowhere near impactful enough to let them get away with this. My favorite archer I've ever built was a theoretical four-class multiclass for an old Build Throwdown; I liked the way Yferna fell out, but one shouldn't need to split so heavily and level so high to get a functional archer.
If subclasses were allowed to actually change the way a class plays, maybe the intent to use subclasses to reduce class bloat would work better. But subclasses aren't allowed to change any of the core rules for a class, which means they're nothing but pointless bolt-ons that fundamentally can't change how you play the given class. Means an 'Archer' subclass of fighter or ranger wouldn't work any better than a "Psyker" subclass of sorc or wizard or whatever other dumb shit people want to foist psychic abilities off onto does. I mean, all you have to do is read the Arcane Archer subclass to know that 5e subclasses simply can't do what the dev team keeps trying to make them do.
EDIT: keep forgetting that DDB's forums are dumb and stupid and don't accept universal forum BBCode tagging.
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Because there comes a point where you have to accept that the ship has sailed; Like what people want is largely covered by other extent classes and options with mostly terminology being the sticking point for most of the people who are still fighting for this at this point.
Literally every sub-class changes how the class plays by either offering additional options or modifiers on the extent abilities of said class.
Horseshit. And/or semantics. Most subclasses are so bland and meaningless you can leave them unselected entirely and the way your character feels to play wouldn't change. Adding one minor action you can do two or three times a day does not make a character feel different than its core class. EVERY fighter subclass save Battlemaster, EVERY rogue subclass save Arcane Trickster (and Trickster cheats by indulging in magic), every Sorcerer subclass period no exceptions, every warlock subclass, most barbarian subs, most cleric subs...I could go on. None of them make playing the character any goddamn different than playing the same character with no subclass at all.
Aberrant Mind sorcerer is mechanically the most powerful Origin in the entire sorcerer class. In some ways it actually comes close to rivaling wizzerd. Playing an Aberrant Mind feels no different at all than playing a regular-ass sorcerer with no Origin selected whatsoever save that there's less pressure on your sharply limited spell picks to get 'thematic' stuff. All the dumb "flavor" nonsense people keep saying makes the Aberrant Mind totez legyt a psychic character works just as well on the base sorcerer class with no Origin whatsoever because there is zero connection between that Fluff and the sorcerer's Crunch, and precisely zero of the Aberrant's other abilities do one single hair of a thing to change the way the sorcerer base class plays.
It's not about power. Never has been. If all someone wanted was power they'd just play Aberrant and be done with it. It's about feel, the tale of the table, and whether the character plays the way it's supposed to. If the character doesn't feel right to play, then it doesn't matter how strong or weak the character is - playing that character won't be satisfying.
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Um... did you actually look at the subclass? One of your big complaints about aberrant mind as a psion is "But then I'm still bellowing Magic Words as loud as I possibly can while carrying around the twenty-pound bag of penguin spleens so I can use my kineticist abilities maybe three times a day tops because Spell Slots."
Now, look at the level 6 subclass feature 'psionic sorcery'. Read what it says. Explain how it doesn't respond to that criticism.
Ok, I'm calling it now: This is either a bit or a case of you having never actually played this game in any serious capacity.
Which if the former is sort of conerning given your join date and the fact that you've averaged 1500 posts a year.
Of course I've read it. Psionic Sorcery requires you to cast a spell gained through your Psionic Spells feature. Psionic Spells provides one kineticist ability - Telekinesis, at 9th level. The rest of its abilities are niche mind arts or Icky Goo Monster spells. The feature allowing you to replace those spells has been nonfunctional in DDB for four years now and requires homebrew to use, and the Divination and Enchantment schools of magic provide no kineticist abilities. Psionic Sorcery also has sharply limited usage, even when the player realizes they can trade the spell slot they would spend on the spell for the sorcery points needed to "psionically sorcerize" the spell as a bonus action. The Aberrant sorcerer either gets to "psionically" cast its spells only once or twice a day, or it gets to forget every other spell it has exists because all its spell slots get digested into SP to fuel Psionic Sorcery.
Can you use the Aberrant Mind to half-ass a mind arts specialist with no TK, provided you actually ever see level 6? Sure, I suppose, so long as you're also okay with being an Icky Goo Monster and with all your mind arts abilities being actively terrible. Can you use the Aberrant Mind to create any kind of kineticist? No. Will you consider this a meaningless quibble? Of course, because in your mind it's all pointless and nobody should care about/want to play psychic characters anyways. It's all just Magic(C), and being a Magic Man is way cooler than being psychic.
EDIT: Lemme make this plain, Pantagruel. I don't like the use of spell slots and spellcasting mechanics as the gas Gauge for psychic abilities. I have no issue with psychic abilities being metered some other way - I actually think the original Psionic Die, the one that stepped up or down in size as your abilities waxed and waned throughout the day, was an interesting idea they could've developed further - but I see no reason you have to shackle psychic characters to a system actively and intentionally designed to prevent the creation of precisely the sort of character one is trying to make when they create a psychic character. Wizards and the D&D 5e development team do not want you to turn spellcasters into psychic characters. They want you to cast spells, with your spell boi, because moarspelz.
Explain to me one single way playing a Champion provides a meaningfully different table experience than playing a basic fighter.
One single way playing a Berserker provides a meaningfully different table experience than playing a basic barbarian.
Give me one single Cleric domain that actually changes what you're trying to do as a cleric.
Point me to one single warlock patron that changes the warlock's play loop or dynamics.
You think adding some extra random fluffy nonsense tacked onto the side of the base class changes the way the base class plays. It does not. All it does is tack on often-meaningless extras that don't change the core gameplay of the class in question whatsoever and are only useful in niche situations. Can a player choose to focus on those things in roleplay? Sure. Anyone can roleplay anything. "fLaVoR is fReE", as everyone keeps insisting. Does that mean the majority of subclasses have any meaningful impact on the way the core class operates? No.
Again - "meaningful." I.e. you-the-player feel like you've made a real choice with actual weight when you do the thing your subclass lets you do that nobody else's does. Virtually nothing in 5e allows the players' choices to have the remotest weight on their characters' abilities. An Aberrant sorc plays exactly the same way a Dragonblood sorc does - like a basic sorcerer. They both rush to Fly, Fireball, and Counterspell and then proceed to cast nothing else whatsoever for the rest of the campaign. The Dragonblood flavors their spells as ephemeral dragon parts manifesting to produce their spell effects, the Aberrant flavors their spells as gross-ass mutations producing distortions in reality, but they both do exactly the same things in exactly the same ways. And when two choices have exactly the same result, they are not 'choices' at all.
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At level 3 you are literally doubling your number of crits, which when playing with a half orc means you can be doing *stupid* amounts of damage much more consistently then anyone else, particularly if you can figure out a way to finagle advantage on a regular basis. Further, unlike the other fighter subclasses you are effectively "resource free" in that all of your stuff is just automatically hard bound into your gameplay.
If you actually read the class you would know this.
The Berserker has the dangerous ability to progress their rage to a higher tier that thereby allows them to make additional attacks per round and which is a much, much more powerful ability then most people realize since it means that you can maintain your rage state while still having a main action that they can perform (IE a skilled action, drinking a potion, Dodge action ect.). This get's even dumber if you combine it with the sentinel feat since it lets you continue to attack, dodge and lock down the movement of your opponent.
In addition they gain charm/fear immunity while raging at level 6 and Retaliation at level 14 (combined with their physical damage resistances) makes them real mean in a duel.
Again, if you had read the book that's been around for a decade you would know this.
Clerics basically fall into one of two schools of play; Zap clerics and Bonk clerics and this is a decision that comes into effect as soon as you pick your domain, With Zap clerics (IE light, knowledge, trickery) being more about being a cantrip flinging, wisdom heavy character while being a Bonk cleric (IE war, Life or tempest) means that you are going to be wading into the thick of combat and relying more on swinging a melee weapon to do most of your work while casting supporting magic on your allies and shying away from offensive ones that focus on saving throws and spell hit.
If you actually read the PHB which has been around for 10 years you would know this.
Hexblade.
Now I've done as you asked and explained things to you so I'd like you to clarify this for everyone here: Is this a bit or are you actually this ignorant of the classes and how games are actually played?
Lemme make this plain: I guarantee any alternative to spell slots and spellcasting will be atrocious, because spell slots is how 5e does cool powers and thus any alternative that doesn't use spell slots is required to be worse. Spell slots are a terrible mechanic that should be removed from the game, but that's not going to happen in 5e. In any case, this has absolutely nothing to do with psionics -- spell slots are just as terrible a mechanic for spellcaster as they are for psionic abilities.
Even if it's true that other power structures aren't going to be as powerful as standard-issue spellcasters, there's plenty of room for "just fine" before you get to "atrocious". WotC aren't going to make an alternate power system deliberately bad just to prove some kind of point. They are, I admit, unlikely to make another alternate power system at all, but that's not because it cannot be done. It's because 5e's design goals are deliberately conservative. Management likely got scared by the poor reception of 4e, so any serious experimentalism was out. And now, 5e's doing great, so why change?
However, if they want to add classes to 5e (which they may not), alternate power systems are the only way they can go. 5e already has too many spellcasting classes; it's basically impossible to differentiate a new one without giving it new toys. See the artificer -- caster, but also with a bunch of powers that really define the class. And there's really not much room to do new things on the non-caster end.
We're never going to see spell slots go away -- they're one of the base assumptions of the genre that is D&D. 4e sort of tried, but only sort of. But there's no reason to think It's always going to be the only structure. Warlocks are already part-way there.
Imo spell slots are better than most anything else that's practical for the general combat format. Mana pools or similar resource systems either encourage throwing the biggest punches you can or make those big punches so inefficient that they'd basically be traps in turn based combat and setting most things to uses per encounter just increases the gamey feeling as opposed to something like a real magic system. Softer games get away with more cinematic an stylized options, but by that point you're really getting into the other end of the old Ship of Theseus Problem: how much can you change a thing before it's become something fundamentally different? Spell slots allow for ones ultimate power level to progress without rendering earlier options wholly obsolete, plus they're easy to track mid combat which is a significant consideration given how much of a meme "the wizard takes half an hour to decide what spell to cast each turn" is.