It's also worth noting that If psionics and magic don't interact this doesn't make the game better by having a counter to magic, it makes the game worse for everyone who isn't psionic or magic since they can't hard counter (which seems to be the point of psionics... I think?) either.
Your mind is 'aberrant' rather than 'superior' or any actual positive describer
Powers are alien/Lovecraftian in nature, at least RAW
Telepathy for only Sorcerer level minutes per bonus action
Your 'psychic abilities' are still spellcasting.
14th and 18th level abilities common to all such sorcerers
"Atypical" and "abnormal" aren't inherently negative, that's just your own unconscious biases leaking through. Any psionicist's mind would be considered "atypical."
As pointed out repeatedly, you do not need to select one of the alien/Lovecraftian origins for your powers. There are no less than 3 other RAW origins to choose from even if your imagination otherwise fails you.
You're not limited to the subclass feature to be "telepathic." Spells and feats exist.
Yes, because spellcasting is the framework that works. What is the Nothic-knobbling problem with psionics being componentless spellcasting? Again, it's just wanting bread submarines.
Not even sure what this objection is meant to be saying.
Also: "it would need testing and pages" is not a bloody counterargument. You don't think they're worth doing, but that's, just, like, your opinion.
Unlike you, I've said WHY it's not worth doing. Not simply "Well, I want them to do this anyway." I've cited the history of where they've run into issues trying to do it repeatedly, and why it wouldn't be different this time unless they approach psionics completely differently than they have in the past. "The definition of insanity," etc.
If you are seriously arguing that the D&D magic system is the result of a considered design process, I... don't know what to say.
It was not a good design to start with, it's been gradually made less bad over time, but it's a core trope of the game, and replacing it outright will get all the yelling and screaming again.
But there's no good reason that it has to be the only flexible power system in the game, shoehorning every class concept into spell slots. Classes are self-contained, which makes it easy to give them different subsystems. Both the Warlock and the Artificer are already doing it, and the warlock's problems are more from a failure to fully commit and a design assumption that fails to match how actual play happens than an inherent weakness in the idea of a different power system.
Spellcasting IS the result of a considered design process. Be speechless if you want, it is. Is it perfect, obviously not, but the vast majority of spells are benchmarked for their level properly (or at worst, a little weak for their level), moreso than at any other point in D&D's history.
I'm not against more power systems in the game. But the drawbacks of that approach just have not been adequately addressed in my mind. If we must have psionics as an entire casting system, I see no reason why spellcasting minus components is not the way to go.
Your mind is 'aberrant' rather than 'superior' or any actual positive describer
Powers are alien/Lovecraftian in nature, at least RAW
Telepathy for only Sorcerer level minutes per bonus action
Your 'psychic abilities' are still spellcasting.
14th and 18th level abilities common to all such sorcerers
"Atypical" and "abnormal" aren't inherently negative, that's just your own unconscious biases leaking through. Any psionicist's mind would be considered "atypical."
As pointed out repeatedly, you do not need to select one of the alien/Lovecraftian origins for your powers. There are no less than 3 other RAW origins to choose from even if your imagination otherwise fails you.
You're not limited to the subclass feature to be "telepathic." Spells and feats exist.
Yes, because spellcasting is the framework that works. What is the Nothic-knobbling problem with psionics being componentless spellcasting? Again, it's just wanting bread submarines.
Not even sure what this objection is meant to be saying.
1: "Aberrant" is the word. There are 100% seriously negative connotations to that word. Also, to a lesser extent, to "abnormal". It ain't "the atypical mind sorcerer". Yes, you can ignore, work around, and reflavor, but you're fighting uphill, because the class and most of its features are built around the idea that psi powers come from the realm of aberrations.
2: not the origin. The actual powers. Things like Hunger of Hadar and Summon Aberration.
3: so you have to burn extra resources beyond your subclass choice just to have usable psi powers?
5: take a good hard look at the high level subclass powers. Can you honestly say those will pass for psi powers with a little reflavoring?
I have literally done those very things, and I'm not the only one. You just don't agree. Which you're allowed to do.
It shouldn't be hard to repeat or link those counters then if, they're as clearly stated as you believe.
You know, if I thought you were convincible, I might. But I don't, so you can do the work yourself. Either take a look at my post history, or read back in the thread. For the latter, you also get to see other people's arguments.
If you are seriously arguing that the D&D magic system is the result of a considered design process, I... don't know what to say.
It was not a good design to start with, it's been gradually made less bad over time, but it's a core trope of the game, and replacing it outright will get all the yelling and screaming again.
But there's no good reason that it has to be the only flexible power system in the game, shoehorning every class concept into spell slots. Classes are self-contained, which makes it easy to give them different subsystems. Both the Warlock and the Artificer are already doing it, and the warlock's problems are more from a failure to fully commit and a design assumption that fails to match how actual play happens than an inherent weakness in the idea of a different power system.
Spellcasting IS the result of a considered design process. Be speechless if you want, it is. Is it perfect, obviously not, but the vast majority of spells are benchmarked for their level properly (or at worst, a little weak for their level), moreso than at any other point in D&D's history.
That's the spell list, which is... OK, I guess. It's simultaneously too large and too small.
The system itself is a patch on a patch on a minor tweak of a really terrible initial design. (There may be a couple more layers of patches and tweaks in there.)
Quick quiz: how many similar but actually different methods are there for casting classes to choose and manage their spells? I count at least five, and I suspect there are more. Were those carefully considered?
1: "Aberrant" is the word. There are 100% seriously negative connotations to that word. Also, to a lesser extent, to "abnormal". It ain't "the atypical mind sorcerer". Yes, you can ignore, work around, and reflavor, but you're fighting uphill, because the class and most of its features are built around the idea that psi powers come from the realm of aberrations.
2: not the origin. The actual powers. Things like Hunger of Hadar and Summon Aberration.
3: so you have to burn extra resources beyond your subclass choice just to have usable psi powers?
5: take a good hard look at the high level subclass powers. Can you honestly say those will pass for psi powers with a little reflavoring?
If you truly can't get over those "negative connotations" then rename the subclass. This isn't a new concept - even in core, PHB 81 tells you that Shadow Monks are often renamed to be "ninjas" or "shadowdancers" for example, even in-universe. Nothing is forcing you to wear the moniker of "Aberrant Mind" against your wishes except you. Similarly, nothing is forcing you to stick with the tentacle-y powers if you find them distasteful - swap them out.
Picking useful spells is not "burning extra resources"; You're a primary caster, that's kind of your job last time I checked.
Lastly, I previously addressed Revelation in Flesh here (see, linking to prior posts isn't hard.)
Quick quiz: how many similar but actually different methods are there for casting classes to choose and manage their spells? I count at least five, and I suspect there are more. Were those carefully considered?
What does this have to do with the price of tea in Kara-Tur? Is there a spell selection method you have a problem with? Because I don't. (Except Ranger, they should be prepared casters, but we already know that's getting fixed.)
Your mind is 'aberrant' rather than 'superior' or any actual positive describer
Powers are alien/Lovecraftian in nature, at least RAW
Telepathy for only Sorcerer level minutes per bonus action
Your 'psychic abilities' are still spellcasting.
14th and 18th level abilities common to all such sorcerers
"Atypical" and "abnormal" aren't inherently negative, that's just your own unconscious biases leaking through. Any psionicist's mind would be considered "atypical."
As pointed out repeatedly, you do not need to select one of the alien/Lovecraftian origins for your powers. There are no less than 3 other RAW origins to choose from even if your imagination otherwise fails you.
You're not limited to the subclass feature to be "telepathic." Spells and feats exist.
Yes, because spellcasting is the framework that works. What is the Nothic-knobbling problem with psionics being componentless spellcasting? Again, it's just wanting bread submarines.
Not even sure what this objection is meant to be saying.
Also: "it would need testing and pages" is not a bloody counterargument. You don't think they're worth doing, but that's, just, like, your opinion.
Unlike you, I've said WHY it's not worth doing. Not simply "Well, I want them to do this anyway." I've cited the history of where they've run into issues trying to do it repeatedly, and why it wouldn't be different this time unless they approach psionics completely differently than they have in the past. "The definition of insanity," etc.
Numbering will not strictly match prior as (1) and (2) from the prior list are combined into point (1) in the following:
It isn't Atypical Mind or even Abnormal Mind and have you actually looked in the monster listings as to what kind of creatures Abberations are? You could do entirely new lists or something, different bonus spells, but the stock Aberrant Mind subclass is only a sorcerer with some quasi-psi ability.
Spells and feats are spells and feats and not subclass specific. If name games are enough then there is no need for more than one class. A fighter could define shooting their bow as casting an arrow spell, or even as casting a fire bolt with the player and DM calling the piercing damage 'fire damage' when they do so.
How is 'component-less' spellcasting (except for spells with listed costs) different from spellcasting using a focus (except for spells with listed costs) ? Again, you are just changing the name without adding anything substantial while doing so.
The objection regarding the 14th and 18th level abilities is that they are very specific abilities that are not exactly normally associated with psionics.
That they would have to approach psionics very differently (and the lack of any practical specifics on how to do so) is an objection many of us have been making. That does not mean the desire to have some such system should be dismissed by way of "You can already do this with what already exists"
The Abderrant Mind sorcerer has a grand total of TWO spells out of eleven which don’t match the flavor of a Psion. There’s ONE 18th-level class ability which doesn’t match the flavor either. That’s it. There’s nothing else in the class which doesn’t mechanically match the flavor of psion.
Changing flavor is a no-effort action once these three issues are dealt with.
Making those minor changes is not a Herculean effort.
I don’t believe that making exaggerations is going to help this discussion.
The Abderrant Mind sorcerer has a grand total of TWO spells out of eleven which don’t match the flavor of a Psion. There’s ONE 18th-level class ability which doesn’t match the flavor either. That’s it. There’s nothing else in the class which doesn’t mechanically match the flavor of psion.
Changing flavor is a no-effort action once these three issues are dealt with.
Making those minor changes is not a Herculean effort.
I don’t believe that making exaggerations is going to help this discussion.
So the fact they cast normally until level 3, then normally for anything they do not use sorcery points to make subtle until 6th and then 'psionic' only to the extent the sorcery points hold out is just solved with name changes?
“That they would have to approach psionics very differently (and the lack of any practical specifics on how to do so) is an objection many of us have been making. That does not mean the desire to have some such system should be dismissed by way of "You can already do this with what already exists"”
Okay, let’s stop with the notion that adding psions to the game with their own magic system is going to change nothing. Of course it will! There’s only so much time and money that can be put into development and giving developers an entire new subsystem to have to deal with will give developers less time for everything else. Plus, the rules will be more complicated and balancing everything will be harder. DND distinguishes itself from its competitors by being the first RPG most people play. DND _needs_ to be simple and cheap.
Until players can agree on what prions should be then absolutely the developers should hold off on building the class. Without a target to build to, developers would just be firing blind.
The Abderrant Mind sorcerer has a grand total of TWO spells out of eleven which don’t match the flavor of a Psion. There’s ONE 18th-level class ability which doesn’t match the flavor either. That’s it. There’s nothing else in the class which doesn’t mechanically match the flavor of psion.
Changing flavor is a no-effort action once these three issues are dealt with.
Making those minor changes is not a Herculean effort.
I don’t believe that making exaggerations is going to help this discussion.
So the fact they cast normally until level 3, then normally for anything they do not use sorcery points to make subtle until 6th and then 'psionic' only to the extent the sorcery points hold out is just solved with name changes?
No, that’s solved by accepting that a 1st tier character does not get many powers rather than demanding sorcerers be even more than they already are, and also recognizing that 5e made a deliberate design choice that spells are not easily concealed, which you will also still be getting a distinct leg up on after the class develops a bit.
The Abderrant Mind sorcerer has a grand total of TWO spells out of eleven which don’t match the flavor of a Psion. There’s ONE 18th-level class ability which doesn’t match the flavor either. That’s it. There’s nothing else in the class which doesn’t mechanically match the flavor of psion.
Changing flavor is a no-effort action once these three issues are dealt with.
Making those minor changes is not a Herculean effort.
I don’t believe that making exaggerations is going to help this discussion.
So the fact they cast normally until level 3, then normally for anything they do not use sorcery points to make subtle until 6th and then 'psionic' only to the extent the sorcery points hold out is just solved with name changes?
Throughout the day, they can convert spell levels into sorcery points.
As for somatic components and verbal components, just describe them as you putting your hand to your head as you cry out “open your mind!” or some such bullshit. A material component can take the form of a spell focus which is one of the common mentalist props; a crystal, for example.
Damn, I miss the days when DnD was a game in which everyone used their imagination and creativity!
I'm ammused at how Ji8e seems to think we need another spellcasting archtype on the basis that we have five but none that he can pigeonhole as "psionic"
Also, I had another thought about how to do a Psychokinetic; Using telekinesis as a medium, it stands to reason that you can manifest all of the effects that would fall under the category of evocation. Fireball is literally just a case of you exciting the atoms in an area to combust. Icestorm is the exact opposite. Melf's acid arrow is recombinating atoms in the air to become a fused mass of hydrogen and chloride. Meteor shower is you literally creating a wormhole that transit's stray interstellar matter and hyper acelerating it.
The Abderrant Mind sorcerer has a grand total of TWO spells out of eleven which don’t match the flavor of a Psion. There’s ONE 18th-level class ability which doesn’t match the flavor either. That’s it. There’s nothing else in the class which doesn’t mechanically match the flavor of psion.
Changing flavor is a no-effort action once these three issues are dealt with.
Making those minor changes is not a Herculean effort.
I don’t believe that making exaggerations is going to help this discussion.
So the fact they cast normally until level 3, then normally for anything they do not use sorcery points to make subtle until 6th and then 'psionic' only to the extent the sorcery points hold out is just solved with name changes?
Throughout the day, they can convert spell levels into sorcery points.
As for somatic components and verbal components, just describe them as you putting your hand to your head as you cry out “open your mind!” or some such bullshit. A material component can take the form of a spell focus which is one of the common mentalist props; a crystal, for example.
Damn, I miss the days when DnD was a game in which everyone used their imagination and creativity!
Every sorcerer can do that, though. The thing is, they still have spell slots and can still cast normally with them.
And it is still magic that they are doing with respect to interactions with various spells and effects that block or otherwise interact with magic.
A draconic sorc can just as easily use subtle spell to cast without somatic or verbal components, so are they psionic too? If not, why not? How about a Genie Sorc or Divine Soul? All sorcerers are supposedly born with their powers.
And it is still magic that they are doing with respect to interactions with various spells and effects that block or otherwise interact with magic.
That's standard for psionic abilities since 3e (when they realized that doing anything else was just a terrible idea). The mind flayer's mind blast is described as magic. The aboleth's enslave is described as magic. The intellect devourer's devour intellect and body thief are described as magic. etc.
”And it is still magic that they are doing with respect to interactions with various spells and effects that block or otherwise interact with magic. “
And here we get back to the scenario where fireballs can go right through the prion’s wall of force and the GM has to determine for every magic item whether the bonuses it gives are arcane or psionic. I really don’t see this as a good thing.
“A draconic sorc can just as easily use subtle spell to cast without somatic or verbal components, so are they psionic too? If not, why not?”. Oh, that’s easy. What have the player and the GM decided?
Seriously, someone needs to explain to me how psionics and magic not impeding each other does anything other then make the game into a complete disaster.
Numbering will not strictly match prior as (1) and (2) from the prior list are combined into point (1) in the following:
It isn't Atypical Mind or even Abnormal Mind and have you actually looked in the monster listings as to what kind of creatures Abberations are? You could do entirely new lists or something, different bonus spells, but the stock Aberrant Mind subclass is only a sorcerer with some quasi-psi ability.
Spells and feats are spells and feats and not subclass specific. If name games are enough then there is no need for more than one class. A fighter could define shooting their bow as casting an arrow spell, or even as casting a fire bolt with the player and DM calling the piercing damage 'fire damage' when they do so.
How is 'component-less' spellcasting (except for spells with listed costs) different from spellcasting using a focus (except for spells with listed costs) ? Again, you are just changing the name without adding anything substantial while doing so.
The objection regarding the 14th and 18th level abilities is that they are very specific abilities that are not exactly normally associated with psionics.
That they would have to approach psionics very differently (and the lack of any practical specifics on how to do so) is an objection many of us have been making. That does not mean the desire to have some such system should be dismissed by way of "You can already do this with what already exists"
The dictionary listed those synonyms, not me. Take it up with them.
I thought the goal was to have a psionic character. Do you need every aspect of that concept spoonfed through the subclass alone? Telepathy doesn't count if you cast to get it, even though that's what 3.5 Psions had to do?
For starters, spellcasting through a focus can be counterspelled, but spellcasting without components can't. A focus also needs to be held in your hand and can be disarmed, sundered, confiscated etc.
Last I checked, 3.5 psions can see invisibility and alter their bodies to fly/swim/squeeze etc just fine.
I did provide an alternate suggestion here. But it seems all you folks want to do is complain about what doesn't exist, or lament what hasn't worked, rather than propose new ideas.
Numbering will not strictly match prior as (1) and (2) from the prior list are combined into point (1) in the following:
It isn't Atypical Mind or even Abnormal Mind and have you actually looked in the monster listings as to what kind of creatures Abberations are? You could do entirely new lists or something, different bonus spells, but the stock Aberrant Mind subclass is only a sorcerer with some quasi-psi ability.
Spells and feats are spells and feats and not subclass specific. If name games are enough then there is no need for more than one class. A fighter could define shooting their bow as casting an arrow spell, or even as casting a fire bolt with the player and DM calling the piercing damage 'fire damage' when they do so.
How is 'component-less' spellcasting (except for spells with listed costs) different from spellcasting using a focus (except for spells with listed costs) ? Again, you are just changing the name without adding anything substantial while doing so.
The objection regarding the 14th and 18th level abilities is that they are very specific abilities that are not exactly normally associated with psionics.
That they would have to approach psionics very differently (and the lack of any practical specifics on how to do so) is an objection many of us have been making. That does not mean the desire to have some such system should be dismissed by way of "You can already do this with what already exists"
The dictionary listed those synonyms, not me. Take it up with them.
I thought the goal was to have a psionic character. Do you need every aspect of that concept spoonfed through the subclass alone? Telepathy doesn't count if you cast to get it, even though that's what 3.5 Psions had to do?
For starters, spellcasting through a focus can be counterspelled, but spellcasting without components can't. A focus also needs to be held in your hand and can be disarmed, sundered, confiscated etc.
Last I checked, 3.5 psions can see invisibility and alter their bodies to fly/swim/squeeze etc just fine.
I did provide an alternate suggestion here. But it seems all you folks want to do is complain about what doesn't exist, or lament what hasn't worked, rather than propose new ideas.
And then showed a clear context of them being used with the exact kind of negative connotations associated with the word in common usage.
Giving people something other than what they are really asking for and then rationalizing that by projecting one's own definitions over top of theirs is not giving people what they are asking for. This does not mean what they are asking for is practical or functional, but that is a separate issue to be addressed.
A subtle spell, doable by any sorc who chooses that metamagic, has just as undetectable a casting and thus is also not-counterspell-able, for exactly the same reasons. Does that mean every sorcerer with subtle spell is a Psion? Since subtle spell also avoids somatic components and holding a focus is, arguably, a somatic component (an action in casting requiring a specific hand or body action), actually holding the focus is similarly not required in such circumstances. However, such sorcerers, like all sorcerers, still have their spell slots and can still cast completely conventionally, using spell slot and without using sorcery points at all. So I repeat the question: "Are they, then, just normal sorcerers who have some psionic ability?"
Not sure who is using the 3.5 version as the epitome of the desired concept, but those were options for Psions, not things that every Psion has in common.
That they could do an entirely different system or subsystem has never been in question. Simply saying they could does not solve the problem of actually coming up with such a system and balancing it.
While my answer to whether any sorcerer. who casts subtle spells is a psion is the correct one - it depends on what the player and the GM have decided - it needs to be pointed out that the AM we’ve been suggesting doesn’t just cast spells subtly.
They have chosen only those spells which simulate the powers of a psion. - Detect Thoughts, Phantasmal Force, Telekinesis, etc.
There are participants in this discussion who want one specific thing - a psion like in 3e and to hell with negotiation, dialogue, or compromise. Yes, every edition has done psions differently, but to hell with that. These participants aren’t willing to budge one inch.
They have every right to their opinion. But, when they hold onto the idea that the developers should give them what they want even though the majority of players want to not have that, it creates a certain tone to efforts to dialogue with those players,
While my answer to whether any sorcerer. who casts subtle spells is a psion is the correct one - it depends on what the player and the GM have decided - it needs to be pointed out that the AM we’ve been suggesting doesn’t just cast spells subtly.
They have chosen only those spells which simulate the powers of a psion. - Detect Thoughts, Phantasmal Force, Telekinesis, etc.
There are participants in this discussion who want one specific thing - a psion like in 3e and to hell with negotiation, dialogue, or compromise. Yes, every edition has done psions differently, but to hell with that. These participants aren’t willing to budge one inch.
They have every right to their opinion. But, when they hold onto the idea that the developers should give them what they want even though the majority of players want to not have that, it creates a certain tone to efforts to dialogue with those players,
"The contradictions don't count" only works with an adequate explanation of why they do not. If they are casting conventionally, it is no different than a wizard casting the same spell conventionally. Insisting otherwise is no different from saying a sword strike is really spellcasting. Or, going the other direction, that a firebolt is merely archery.
Merely saying things does not work well when what is said does not match what is observed.
It's also worth noting that If psionics and magic don't interact this doesn't make the game better by having a counter to magic, it makes the game worse for everyone who isn't psionic or magic since they can't hard counter (which seems to be the point of psionics... I think?) either.
It shouldn't be hard to repeat or link those counters then if, they're as clearly stated as you believe.
Unlike you, I've said WHY it's not worth doing. Not simply "Well, I want them to do this anyway." I've cited the history of where they've run into issues trying to do it repeatedly, and why it wouldn't be different this time unless they approach psionics completely differently than they have in the past. "The definition of insanity," etc.
Spellcasting IS the result of a considered design process. Be speechless if you want, it is. Is it perfect, obviously not, but the vast majority of spells are benchmarked for their level properly (or at worst, a little weak for their level), moreso than at any other point in D&D's history.
I'm not against more power systems in the game. But the drawbacks of that approach just have not been adequately addressed in my mind. If we must have psionics as an entire casting system, I see no reason why spellcasting minus components is not the way to go.
1: "Aberrant" is the word. There are 100% seriously negative connotations to that word. Also, to a lesser extent, to "abnormal". It ain't "the atypical mind sorcerer". Yes, you can ignore, work around, and reflavor, but you're fighting uphill, because the class and most of its features are built around the idea that psi powers come from the realm of aberrations.
2: not the origin. The actual powers. Things like Hunger of Hadar and Summon Aberration.
3: so you have to burn extra resources beyond your subclass choice just to have usable psi powers?
5: take a good hard look at the high level subclass powers. Can you honestly say those will pass for psi powers with a little reflavoring?
You know, if I thought you were convincible, I might. But I don't, so you can do the work yourself. Either take a look at my post history, or read back in the thread. For the latter, you also get to see other people's arguments.
That's the spell list, which is... OK, I guess. It's simultaneously too large and too small.
The system itself is a patch on a patch on a minor tweak of a really terrible initial design. (There may be a couple more layers of patches and tweaks in there.)
Quick quiz: how many similar but actually different methods are there for casting classes to choose and manage their spells? I count at least five, and I suspect there are more. Were those carefully considered?
If you truly can't get over those "negative connotations" then rename the subclass. This isn't a new concept - even in core, PHB 81 tells you that Shadow Monks are often renamed to be "ninjas" or "shadowdancers" for example, even in-universe. Nothing is forcing you to wear the moniker of "Aberrant Mind" against your wishes except you. Similarly, nothing is forcing you to stick with the tentacle-y powers if you find them distasteful - swap them out.
Picking useful spells is not "burning extra resources"; You're a primary caster, that's kind of your job last time I checked.
Lastly, I previously addressed Revelation in Flesh here (see, linking to prior posts isn't hard.)
I'll stick with addressing what you're willing to defend then.
What does this have to do with the price of tea in Kara-Tur? Is there a spell selection method you have a problem with? Because I don't. (Except Ranger, they should be prepared casters, but we already know that's getting fixed.)
Numbering will not strictly match prior as (1) and (2) from the prior list are combined into point (1) in the following:
The Abderrant Mind sorcerer has a grand total of TWO spells out of eleven which don’t match the flavor of a Psion. There’s ONE 18th-level class ability which doesn’t match the flavor either. That’s it. There’s nothing else in the class which doesn’t mechanically match the flavor of psion.
Changing flavor is a no-effort action once these three issues are dealt with.
Making those minor changes is not a Herculean effort.
I don’t believe that making exaggerations is going to help this discussion.
So the fact they cast normally until level 3, then normally for anything they do not use sorcery points to make subtle until 6th and then 'psionic' only to the extent the sorcery points hold out is just solved with name changes?
“That they would have to approach psionics very differently (and the lack of any practical specifics on how to do so) is an objection many of us have been making. That does not mean the desire to have some such system should be dismissed by way of "You can already do this with what already exists"”
Okay, let’s stop with the notion that adding psions to the game with their own magic system is going to change nothing. Of course it will! There’s only so much time and money that can be put into development and giving developers an entire new subsystem to have to deal with will give developers less time for everything else. Plus, the rules will be more complicated and balancing everything will be harder. DND distinguishes itself from its competitors by being the first RPG most people play. DND _needs_ to be simple and cheap.
Until players can agree on what prions should be then absolutely the developers should hold off on building the class. Without a target to build to, developers would just be firing blind.
No, that’s solved by accepting that a 1st tier character does not get many powers rather than demanding sorcerers be even more than they already are, and also recognizing that 5e made a deliberate design choice that spells are not easily concealed, which you will also still be getting a distinct leg up on after the class develops a bit.
Throughout the day, they can convert spell levels into sorcery points.
As for somatic components and verbal components, just describe them as you putting your hand to your head as you cry out “open your mind!” or some such bullshit. A material component can take the form of a spell focus which is one of the common mentalist props; a crystal, for example.
Damn, I miss the days when DnD was a game in which everyone used their imagination and creativity!
I'm ammused at how Ji8e seems to think we need another spellcasting archtype on the basis that we have five but none that he can pigeonhole as "psionic"
Also, I had another thought about how to do a Psychokinetic; Using telekinesis as a medium, it stands to reason that you can manifest all of the effects that would fall under the category of evocation. Fireball is literally just a case of you exciting the atoms in an area to combust. Icestorm is the exact opposite. Melf's acid arrow is recombinating atoms in the air to become a fused mass of hydrogen and chloride. Meteor shower is you literally creating a wormhole that transit's stray interstellar matter and hyper acelerating it.
Every sorcerer can do that, though. The thing is, they still have spell slots and can still cast normally with them.
And it is still magic that they are doing with respect to interactions with various spells and effects that block or otherwise interact with magic.
A draconic sorc can just as easily use subtle spell to cast without somatic or verbal components, so are they psionic too? If not, why not? How about a Genie Sorc or Divine Soul? All sorcerers are supposedly born with their powers.
That's standard for psionic abilities since 3e (when they realized that doing anything else was just a terrible idea). The mind flayer's mind blast is described as magic. The aboleth's enslave is described as magic. The intellect devourer's devour intellect and body thief are described as magic. etc.
“Every sorcerer can do that, though”.
yeah, and….?
”And it is still magic that they are doing with respect to interactions with various spells and effects that block or otherwise interact with magic. “
And here we get back to the scenario where fireballs can go right through the prion’s wall of force and the GM has to determine for every magic item whether the bonuses it gives are arcane or psionic. I really don’t see this as a good thing.
“A draconic sorc can just as easily use subtle spell to cast without somatic or verbal components, so are they psionic too? If not, why not?”. Oh, that’s easy. What have the player and the GM decided?
Seriously, someone needs to explain to me how psionics and magic not impeding each other does anything other then make the game into a complete disaster.
While my answer to whether any sorcerer. who casts subtle spells is a psion is the correct one - it depends on what the player and the GM have decided - it needs to be pointed out that the AM we’ve been suggesting doesn’t just cast spells subtly.
They have chosen only those spells which simulate the powers of a psion. - Detect Thoughts, Phantasmal Force, Telekinesis, etc.
There are participants in this discussion who want one specific thing - a psion like in 3e and to hell with negotiation, dialogue, or compromise. Yes, every edition has done psions differently, but to hell with that. These participants aren’t willing to budge one inch.
They have every right to their opinion. But, when they hold onto the idea that the developers should give them what they want even though the majority of players want to not have that, it creates a certain tone to efforts to dialogue with those players,
"The contradictions don't count" only works with an adequate explanation of why they do not. If they are casting conventionally, it is no different than a wizard casting the same spell conventionally. Insisting otherwise is no different from saying a sword strike is really spellcasting. Or, going the other direction, that a firebolt is merely archery.
Merely saying things does not work well when what is said does not match what is observed.
“If they are casting conventionally, it is no different than a wizard casting the same spell conventionally.”
Is it? Are Druids, Clerics, Sorcerers, and Warlocks no different than a Wizard?