Yes, piles of arbitrary decisions are very traditional in D&D. They've been moving away from them in favor of actual systems design since 3e, though 5e definitely has some backsliding.
"Backsliding?" 5e has far better system design than 3e ever did.
Did anything happen between 3rd edition and 5th edition?
3e town guards couldn't even keep watch. Casters got free spells for pumping the stats they were going to pump anyway. Martials couldn't move and full attack.
There were tons of subsystems in 3e and every single one absolutely sucked compared to spellcasting, even psionics which was the second-best one. Give me a break.
I admit that I never got deep into 3.
But they very clearly actually designed it, which was miles ahead of what had come before. I doesn't have to be great. It doesn't even have to be good. It certainly doesn't have to be to your taste. All it needs is a more-or-less coherent rules model.
And, before you say it, yes "use spell slots for all powers" would be a coherent rules model. And 5e doesn't do that. It's never done that. It uses it for all casters, which works, until you have a caster archetype that doesn't fit the mold. They've not yet made the jump from "spells and powers" to "just powers", but it's an obvious step.
Here's my secret: I can't describe what I want out of a psychic class because I don't want one.
Well, really, "won't" more than "can't". If I wanted one, I could design one. It's not hard*. I am not, nor are WotC's designers, shackled to the past. If I were tasked with designing such a beast from first principles, there'd be some back and forth to determine the scope of the assignment, then I'd crank out some concepts. I'd have a leg up on WotC's designers because I've already considered and discarded the spell slot model.
And you still haven't said what benefit discarding it gets you, besides "I just want something new." Enjoy your bread submarine.
I literally said it (again) in the post you're responding to.
You disagreeing with the argument does not make it not exist.
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
Interconnectedness
Low diversity
Flexible scaling
A few other properties that didn't pop into my head right now
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
You know what else was a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering? Psionics.
And how did that work out? I understand it didn't go well, so perhaps a different approach might fare better.
The only way to get away from that is to make something so narrow in focus and weak that it won't be on par with spellcasting. Which we got, via Psi Warrior and Soulknife, so that's fine.
I realize that thinking about systems abstractions is a specialized skill, but can you really not imagine the existence of another functional system beyond the ones that you have? It doesn't have to be one you'd want to play, but just consider the vague possibility that the design space may not be played out.
It's that spell slots work (more or less) for a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering.
Once you introduce at least one of:
Interconnectedness
Low diversity
Flexible scaling
A few other properties that didn't pop into my head right now
The system really starts to show its flaws.
Yes, I suppose you could build a power hierarchy system that you power at varying levels with spell slots, but then you have to answer the question: Why?
I could perfectly well do everything you describe with spell slots.
And I can write security-critical internet code in C. Doesn't make it a good idea.
Now, admittedly, trying to build a different power system out of spell slots is not anything like that bad, but you're still working against what it's good at, and you're going to end up tacking additional mechanics on if you don't want to end up with "yet another wizard".
To the degree spell slots have a value, it's in the fact that they compel use of intermediate power levels -- on a spell point system you're almost always either casting at max power or very low power, because if it's worth spending on, it's worth spending a lot on.
They only do that in multiple-encounter-day games. in short-day games, you just gun with the big guns.
In those games, any spell-pointesque player won't just blow out their charge ASAP because they're then out of juice. They have strong encouragement to try for the minimum level of power required.
But they very clearly actually designed it, which was miles ahead of what had come before. I doesn't have to be great. It doesn't even have to be good. It certainly doesn't have to be to your taste. All it needs is a more-or-less coherent rules model.
Aren't there enough PC species? But WotC is publishing more and more.
Given that the 30 races that were listed in Tome were rendered so bland and generic that their descriptions were pretty much freely interchangable I'd really rather they didn't add more.
If WotC doesn't want to publish a psionic mystic it's because sourcerbooks with classes using special game mechanics are more difficult to be sold. Maybe this could change thanks D&D-Beyond and DM-Guild because online-sales saving the printing and sending.
They did publish a psionic class. It went over like a lead baloon because it was a confusing mess.
Maybe there is in the next year a new manga where the main characters have got psionic powers, but they aren't welcome in a fantasy world ruled by the magic, something style X-Men as intruders in Harry Potter saga. Then the psionic powers become popular.
Maybe someone will make a manga/anime about a really powerful guy who keeps insisting that he's psychic but is actually magic which people keep pointing out to him over and over again... and it becomes really popular so people stop trying to deliniate this.
There is magic that does things normally associated with psychics. The concept that there could be a story or even a campaign where the main character turns out to be something other than what they believed themselves to be is not a new plot development concept.
That does not make it the plot development (or mechanic) that people who want a psychic/Psion class are looking for.
That it is a difficult and possibly impossible dream to come up with a class that fits the criteria but is nevertheless balanced with what already exists is a legitimate argument. Tempering expectations does not need to outright invalidate the desires of those seeking such a character class.
And not sure what about existing races is considered interchangeable, other than that they are sentient races and disengaging race and culture from each other does not change the physiological differences, even if going with the Tashas stat bonus model.
I wish people in this dialogue would stop staring opinions as facts, stop making declarations, and start providing evidence and reasoning.
Somebody please tell me with evidence and reasoning _why_. Psi points are a better choice for Psions than spell levels.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
That said, something other than spell slots would be preferrable just to differentiate the class better as 'something different.' But it would still have to be non-magical in nature to be properly psi (or at least a completely different type of magic that does not count as 'magic' for spells that target/interact with magic.
I wish people in this dialogue would stop staring opinions as facts, stop making declarations, and start providing evidence and reasoning.
Somebody please tell me with evidence and reasoning _why_. Psi points are a better choice for Psions than spell levels.
You're asking for an opinion there. There's no one true way of game design. Outside of relatively uninteresting questions like "this die mechanic has this result curve", it's all, ultimately, opinion. It's often opinion backed with "these other opinions with occasional facts support my conclusion", but, in the end, it's always "This is what I want out of a game."
That said:
The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters, characters who can throw lightning, and summon a demon, and punch people with a big glowy hand, and, and, and.
If you just made a list of "these are the psychic spells, and the psychic caster can choose from them", you tend to end up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports -- but not short, and see the future a little, etc.
This fails to match the fiction that it's attempting to evoke.
And yes, you can choose coherent powers. Maybe. If there's enough of them.
It's lot like trying to make a fire mage. You end up with all the interesting fire spells, and then more attack spells than you actually need, because that's all there is. Lots of the generally useful spells are outside your scope. You can either take them and compromise your concept, deliberately make your character weaker, or do unsatisfying rechroming. ("I counter your spell... WITH FIRE! No, no... it doesn't do any damage or anything. It's just a counterspell.") If you could choose to only pick fire powers, and actually get something for it, likely access to better fire spells that only fire mages have, you'd be all over that. But that ain't how it works.
And, once you've abandoned the standard spell system anyway, you need some kind of way to manage your resources.
The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters, characters who can throw lightning, and summon a demon, and punch people with a big glowy hand, and, and, and.
No, the D&D classes are made for that. That's essentially unrelated to spell slots, you'd see the same effect on a spell point system. The main thing it does is encourage you to change which your primary spells are as you level up, which could be fixed by spells with better scaling on upcasting.
It's lot like trying to make a fire mage. You end up with all the interesting fire spells, and then more attack spells than you actually need, because that's all there is. Lots of the generally useful spells are outside your scope. You can either take them and compromise your concept, deliberately make your character weaker, or do unsatisfying rechroming.
I believe I've commented that psi is just the specialist caster problem before.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
”The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters,”
What’s your proof of this?
The characters it makes.
A system's purpose is what it does. The D&D spell system does nothing to induce players not to play generalists. Taking a specific spell closes off no future options. It does nothing to incentivize any future spell choice. The larger game rewards flexibility. The hypothetical fire mage fares poorly against fire-resistant foes, and gets no benefit for being a fire mage.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
There would have to be a different method of counter-play, but that is not, in and of itself impossible.
Most monsters would be unaffected. Not only is the CR system a mess anyway, right now, but just as most monsters have no special general resistances to magic, there is no reason for them to have any special general resistances to psionics. Fire is fire is fire, whether created chemically, magically or using pyrokinesis and one can substitute in any different damage type in there (and psychic power name associated with that damage type) and the logic still apply.
Balancing issues center more around the fact that psi powers traditionally have fewer drawbacks (subtlety, more likely to be 'on demand,' not shut down as easily by magic, etc) than magical ones do, which is why I am saying that they would be, IMO, difficult to impossible to balance well.
Also, I have some suggestions for people who want D&D/superheroes/RPGs with psionics:
Palladium Fantasy RPG This is very much a classic fantasy RPG from the Palladium megaversal system which offers players a plethora of different classes including no less then 4 dedicated psychic classes (Sensitive, Healer, Mystic and Mind Mage) as well as allowing non-dedicated psychic classes to have access to a handful of minor powers if their race allows for it.
Beyond the supernatural Another Classic from the folks at palladium books; virtually all of the character classes in this game are psychics of varying sorts acting (typically) as psychic investigators dealing with supernatural elements and trying to leverage their more focused power sets to allow them to complete their jobs.
Heroes unlimited! One of the first RPG's I "got gud" at way back in the mid 90's, Heroes unlimited presents a plethora of different superhero archetypes including the Psionic character class.
Best part of these products? They operate on the same rule set and thus can be merged by a GM to varying degrees to create new and unique settings and worlds.
But they very clearly actually designed it, which was miles ahead of what had come before. I doesn't have to be great. It doesn't even have to be good. It certainly doesn't have to be to your taste. All it needs is a more-or-less coherent rules model.
And, before you say it, yes "use spell slots for all powers" would be a coherent rules model. And 5e doesn't do that. It's never done that. It uses it for all casters, which works, until you have a caster archetype that doesn't fit the mold. They've not yet made the jump from "spells and powers" to "just powers", but it's an obvious step.
They "very clearly actually designed" 5e too. You may not like what they designed, but design it they did. And if the objective was to have design that would be accessible for newcomers but have the depth to retain veterans, they nailed that.
And if you're not asking for psionics to be casters, but be equal to casters... again, how?
I realize that thinking about systems abstractions is a specialized skill, but can you really not imagine the existence of another functional system beyond the ones that you have? It doesn't have to be one you'd want to play, but just consider the vague possibility that the design space may not be played out.
Uh, I'm the one who's happy with spell slots for psionics, remember? You're the one who wants a functioning bread submarine, the burden of that "imagination" is on you. I'm not going to construct your argument for you.
”The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters,”
What’s your proof of this?
The characters it makes.
A system's purpose is what it does. The D&D spell system does nothing to induce players not to play generalists. Taking a specific spell closes off no future options. It does nothing to incentivize any future spell choice. The larger game rewards flexibility. The hypothetical fire mage fares poorly against fire-resistant foes, and gets no benefit for being a fire mage.
I disagree very much. In fact, you can’t play a wizard without specializing into one of the schools or other subclasses. You get two spells per level. Certain subclasses are going to encourage you to take more of that school’s spells (Divination, for example, via Expert Divination). Every subclass plays a little differently and spending some of your 20 + spells learned per level on spells that don’t work with your subclass is just a waste.
It's also worth noting that by going off meta with your spell choices you can wind up with some really fun and creative solutions to problems that you wouldn't have by playing as a generalist; Like an enchanter playing mind games all over the place or an illusionist gas lighting people in real time would be hilariously fun.
”The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters,”
What’s your proof of this?
The characters it makes.
A system's purpose is what it does. The D&D spell system does nothing to induce players not to play generalists. Taking a specific spell closes off no future options. It does nothing to incentivize any future spell choice. The larger game rewards flexibility. The hypothetical fire mage fares poorly against fire-resistant foes, and gets no benefit for being a fire mage.
I disagree very much. In fact, you can’t play a wizard without specializing into one of the schools or other subclasses. You get two spells per level. Certain subclasses are going to encourage you to take more of that school’s spells (Divination, for example, via Expert Divination). Every subclass plays a little differently and spending some of your 20 + spells learned per level on spells that don’t work with your subclass is just a waste.
And yet... everybody does. Lots of them.
You're also pulling subclasses into the penumbra of the spell system, which seems a bit of a stretch. And there are more casters than just wizards. And, to be frank, wizard subclasses in general are pretty unimpressive, and most of them do very little to really incentivize spell choice.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
There would have to be a different method of counter-play, but that is not, in and of itself impossible.
Most monsters would be unaffected. Not only is the CR system a mess anyway, right now, but just as most monsters have no special general resistances to magic, there is no reason for them to have any special general resistances to psionics. Fire is fire is fire, whether created chemically, magically or using pyrokinesis and one can substitute in any different damage type in there (and psychic power name associated with that damage type) and the logic still apply.
Balancing issues center more around the fact that psi powers traditionally have fewer drawbacks (subtlety, more likely to be 'on demand,' not shut down as easily by magic, etc) than magical ones do, which is why I am saying that they would be, IMO, difficult to impossible to balance well.
I would suggest you look again; virtually all demons, yugoloths and devils have innate magic resistance which psionics (by virtue of being not magic) will just bypass giving them a massive leg up over all the caster classes. Ergo they would either need to be reworked or left with a massive weakness relative to other characters.
Furthermore, I already outlined an example of how this Loophole turns into a problem for the game as a whole when I explained how it undermines the entire point of a Beholder fight: that players are going to have to play around the absence of magic (which happens if the central eye is staring at you) or it's ability to obliterate you (the central eye isn't which allows it to use all the other eye stalks (including the one that disintegrates)) which leads to them and the GM both having to get really inventive and just having a really good time with unorthodox tactics and strategy as opposed to just using the tactic(tm).
This combined with the lack of counterplay (since it typically only requires you to be conscious... and sometimes that's not even a limitation) means that GMs and other players are going to be stuck with a character that is wildly overpowered and simply unfun to have as a party member.
Really, this whole thing just comes off as kind of silly to me since one of the biggest problems with 3rd was that it was built to make caster classes these unasailable gods that the mechanics couldn't actually reign in or contain. Fifth has taken great pains to ensure that in giving them a breadth of abilities they were never again going to be in a position where they could one shot bosses or have unlimited actions per turn or any of a billion "Feature not a bug" mechanics that were present before... and now we have people arguing for the ability to simply ignore those carefully contained mechanics.
I realize that thinking about systems abstractions is a specialized skill, but can you really not imagine the existence of another functional system beyond the ones that you have? It doesn't have to be one you'd want to play, but just consider the vague possibility that the design space may not be played out.
Uh, I'm the one who's happy with spell slots for psionics, remember? You're the one who wants a functioning bread submarine, the burden of that "imagination" is on you. I'm not going to construct your argument for you.
You're the one who's arguing that standard casters or highly-rigid subclasses are the only viable path to psychic characters.
You said:
You know what else was a system of unconnected generalist powers with clear power tiering? Psionics.
The only way to get away from that is to make something so narrow in focus and weak that it won't be on par with spellcasting. Which we got, via Psi Warrior and Soulknife, so that's fine.
I merely asked you to consider the possibility that soulknife is not the only direction possible from that starting point.
I mean... Soul knife and Psi-warrior seem to be exactly what you're asking for WRT a psi class: you have a handful of Power Points (PP), curtailed powers that you can use to achieve specific effects and no spell slots.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
There would have to be a different method of counter-play, but that is not, in and of itself impossible.
Most monsters would be unaffected. Not only is the CR system a mess anyway, right now, but just as most monsters have no special general resistances to magic, there is no reason for them to have any special general resistances to psionics. Fire is fire is fire, whether created chemically, magically or using pyrokinesis and one can substitute in any different damage type in there (and psychic power name associated with that damage type) and the logic still apply.
Balancing issues center more around the fact that psi powers traditionally have fewer drawbacks (subtlety, more likely to be 'on demand,' not shut down as easily by magic, etc) than magical ones do, which is why I am saying that they would be, IMO, difficult to impossible to balance well.
I would suggest you look again; virtually all demons, yugoloths and devils have innate magic resistance which psionics (by virtue of being not magic) will just bypass giving them a massive leg up over all the caster classes. Ergo they would either need to be reworked or left with a massive weakness relative to other characters.
Furthermore, I already outlined an example of how this Loophole turns into a problem for the game as a whole when I explained how it undermines the entire point of a Beholder fight: that players are going to have to play around the absence of magic (which happens if the central eye is staring at you) or it's ability to obliterate you (the central eye isn't which allows it to use all the other eye stalks (including the one that disintegrates)) which leads to them and the GM both having to get really inventive and just having a really good time with unorthodox tactics and strategy as opposed to just using the tactic(tm).
This combined with the lack of counterplay (since it typically only requires you to be conscious... and sometimes that's not even a limitation) means that GMs and other players are going to be stuck with a character that is wildly overpowered and simply unfun to have as a party member.
Really, this whole thing just comes off as kind of silly to me since one of the biggest problems with 3rd was that it was built to make caster classes these unasailable gods that the mechanics couldn't actually reign in or contain. Fifth has taken great pains to ensure that in giving them a breadth of abilities they were never again going to be in a position where they could one shot bosses or have unlimited actions per turn or any of a billion "Feature not a bug" mechanics that were present before... and now we have people arguing for the ability to simply ignore those carefully contained mechanics.
Saying 'All creatures of this class (demons, for instance) that are resistant to magic are resistant to psionics, too' is hardly a difficult thing to manage.
But you are essentially repeating what I just said (bolded) and treating it as some sort of rebuttal.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
There would have to be a different method of counter-play, but that is not, in and of itself impossible.
Most monsters would be unaffected. Not only is the CR system a mess anyway, right now, but just as most monsters have no special general resistances to magic, there is no reason for them to have any special general resistances to psionics. Fire is fire is fire, whether created chemically, magically or using pyrokinesis and one can substitute in any different damage type in there (and psychic power name associated with that damage type) and the logic still apply.
Balancing issues center more around the fact that psi powers traditionally have fewer drawbacks (subtlety, more likely to be 'on demand,' not shut down as easily by magic, etc) than magical ones do, which is why I am saying that they would be, IMO, difficult to impossible to balance well.
I would suggest you look again; virtually all demons, yugoloths and devils have innate magic resistance which psionics (by virtue of being not magic) will just bypass giving them a massive leg up over all the caster classes. Ergo they would either need to be reworked or left with a massive weakness relative to other characters.
Furthermore, I already outlined an example of how this Loophole turns into a problem for the game as a whole when I explained how it undermines the entire point of a Beholder fight: that players are going to have to play around the absence of magic (which happens if the central eye is staring at you) or it's ability to obliterate you (the central eye isn't which allows it to use all the other eye stalks (including the one that disintegrates)) which leads to them and the GM both having to get really inventive and just having a really good time with unorthodox tactics and strategy as opposed to just using the tactic(tm).
This combined with the lack of counterplay (since it typically only requires you to be conscious... and sometimes that's not even a limitation) means that GMs and other players are going to be stuck with a character that is wildly overpowered and simply unfun to have as a party member.
Really, this whole thing just comes off as kind of silly to me since one of the biggest problems with 3rd was that it was built to make caster classes these unasailable gods that the mechanics couldn't actually reign in or contain. Fifth has taken great pains to ensure that in giving them a breadth of abilities they were never again going to be in a position where they could one shot bosses or have unlimited actions per turn or any of a billion "Feature not a bug" mechanics that were present before... and now we have people arguing for the ability to simply ignore those carefully contained mechanics.
Or simply say 'all creatures of this class of being have resistance to psionics, too. Which is hardly a difficult thing to manage
Or you can just accept that psionics is magic and subject to the same rules and mechanics.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
There would have to be a different method of counter-play, but that is not, in and of itself impossible.
Most monsters would be unaffected. Not only is the CR system a mess anyway, right now, but just as most monsters have no special general resistances to magic, there is no reason for them to have any special general resistances to psionics. Fire is fire is fire, whether created chemically, magically or using pyrokinesis and one can substitute in any different damage type in there (and psychic power name associated with that damage type) and the logic still apply.
Balancing issues center more around the fact that psi powers traditionally have fewer drawbacks (subtlety, more likely to be 'on demand,' not shut down as easily by magic, etc) than magical ones do, which is why I am saying that they would be, IMO, difficult to impossible to balance well.
I would suggest you look again; virtually all demons, yugoloths and devils have innate magic resistance which psionics (by virtue of being not magic) will just bypass giving them a massive leg up over all the caster classes. Ergo they would either need to be reworked or left with a massive weakness relative to other characters.
Furthermore, I already outlined an example of how this Loophole turns into a problem for the game as a whole when I explained how it undermines the entire point of a Beholder fight: that players are going to have to play around the absence of magic (which happens if the central eye is staring at you) or it's ability to obliterate you (the central eye isn't which allows it to use all the other eye stalks (including the one that disintegrates)) which leads to them and the GM both having to get really inventive and just having a really good time with unorthodox tactics and strategy as opposed to just using the tactic(tm).
This combined with the lack of counterplay (since it typically only requires you to be conscious... and sometimes that's not even a limitation) means that GMs and other players are going to be stuck with a character that is wildly overpowered and simply unfun to have as a party member.
Really, this whole thing just comes off as kind of silly to me since one of the biggest problems with 3rd was that it was built to make caster classes these unasailable gods that the mechanics couldn't actually reign in or contain. Fifth has taken great pains to ensure that in giving them a breadth of abilities they were never again going to be in a position where they could one shot bosses or have unlimited actions per turn or any of a billion "Feature not a bug" mechanics that were present before... and now we have people arguing for the ability to simply ignore those carefully contained mechanics.
Or simply say 'all creatures of this class of being have resistance to psionics, too. Which is hardly a difficult thing to manage
Or you can just accept that psionics is magic and subject to the same rules and mechanics.
Simply because upper and lower planar creatures exist and are powerful?
As I said, simply changing the name does not change the nature.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
There would have to be a different method of counter-play, but that is not, in and of itself impossible.
Most monsters would be unaffected. Not only is the CR system a mess anyway, right now, but just as most monsters have no special general resistances to magic, there is no reason for them to have any special general resistances to psionics. Fire is fire is fire, whether created chemically, magically or using pyrokinesis and one can substitute in any different damage type in there (and psychic power name associated with that damage type) and the logic still apply.
Balancing issues center more around the fact that psi powers traditionally have fewer drawbacks (subtlety, more likely to be 'on demand,' not shut down as easily by magic, etc) than magical ones do, which is why I am saying that they would be, IMO, difficult to impossible to balance well.
I would suggest you look again; virtually all demons, yugoloths and devils have innate magic resistance which psionics (by virtue of being not magic) will just bypass giving them a massive leg up over all the caster classes. Ergo they would either need to be reworked or left with a massive weakness relative to other characters.
Furthermore, I already outlined an example of how this Loophole turns into a problem for the game as a whole when I explained how it undermines the entire point of a Beholder fight: that players are going to have to play around the absence of magic (which happens if the central eye is staring at you) or it's ability to obliterate you (the central eye isn't which allows it to use all the other eye stalks (including the one that disintegrates)) which leads to them and the GM both having to get really inventive and just having a really good time with unorthodox tactics and strategy as opposed to just using the tactic(tm).
This combined with the lack of counterplay (since it typically only requires you to be conscious... and sometimes that's not even a limitation) means that GMs and other players are going to be stuck with a character that is wildly overpowered and simply unfun to have as a party member.
Really, this whole thing just comes off as kind of silly to me since one of the biggest problems with 3rd was that it was built to make caster classes these unasailable gods that the mechanics couldn't actually reign in or contain. Fifth has taken great pains to ensure that in giving them a breadth of abilities they were never again going to be in a position where they could one shot bosses or have unlimited actions per turn or any of a billion "Feature not a bug" mechanics that were present before... and now we have people arguing for the ability to simply ignore those carefully contained mechanics.
Or simply say 'all creatures of this class of being have resistance to psionics, too. Which is hardly a difficult thing to manage
Or you can just accept that psionics is magic and subject to the same rules and mechanics.
Simply because upper and lower planar creatures exist and are powerful?
As I said, simply changing the name does not change the nature.
No, but implementing whole new mechanics without actually taking into consideration the ramifications on the extent mechanics of the game is an incredibly bad idea particularly when the reason for doing so comes across as utterly whimsical.
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Did anything happen between 3rd edition and 5th edition?
I admit that I never got deep into 3.
But they very clearly actually designed it, which was miles ahead of what had come before. I doesn't have to be great. It doesn't even have to be good. It certainly doesn't have to be to your taste. All it needs is a more-or-less coherent rules model.
And, before you say it, yes "use spell slots for all powers" would be a coherent rules model. And 5e doesn't do that. It's never done that. It uses it for all casters, which works, until you have a caster archetype that doesn't fit the mold. They've not yet made the jump from "spells and powers" to "just powers", but it's an obvious step.
I literally said it (again) in the post you're responding to.
You disagreeing with the argument does not make it not exist.
And how did that work out? I understand it didn't go well, so perhaps a different approach might fare better.
I realize that thinking about systems abstractions is a specialized skill, but can you really not imagine the existence of another functional system beyond the ones that you have? It doesn't have to be one you'd want to play, but just consider the vague possibility that the design space may not be played out.
And I can write security-critical internet code in C. Doesn't make it a good idea.
Now, admittedly, trying to build a different power system out of spell slots is not anything like that bad, but you're still working against what it's good at, and you're going to end up tacking additional mechanics on if you don't want to end up with "yet another wizard".
They only do that in multiple-encounter-day games. in short-day games, you just gun with the big guns.
In those games, any spell-pointesque player won't just blow out their charge ASAP because they're then out of juice. They have strong encouragement to try for the minimum level of power required.
So why are you complaining about 5e?
There is magic that does things normally associated with psychics. The concept that there could be a story or even a campaign where the main character turns out to be something other than what they believed themselves to be is not a new plot development concept.
That does not make it the plot development (or mechanic) that people who want a psychic/Psion class are looking for.
That it is a difficult and possibly impossible dream to come up with a class that fits the criteria but is nevertheless balanced with what already exists is a legitimate argument. Tempering expectations does not need to outright invalidate the desires of those seeking such a character class.
And not sure what about existing races is considered interchangeable, other than that they are sentient races and disengaging race and culture from each other does not change the physiological differences, even if going with the Tashas stat bonus model.
My understanding is that the biggest issue with Aberrant Mind as the Psion class is not merely that it has spell slots, but that the spells cast (including those with subtle magic or with psionic magic, actually) are still magic, with respect to interacting with anti-magic effects and to the extent they are castable conventionally without metamagic, are cast conventionally, with the same verbal, somatic and/or material components as when cast by any other sorcerer or for that matter any other class which can cast them.
That said, something other than spell slots would be preferrable just to differentiate the class better as 'something different.' But it would still have to be non-magical in nature to be properly psi (or at least a completely different type of magic that does not count as 'magic' for spells that target/interact with magic.
You're asking for an opinion there. There's no one true way of game design. Outside of relatively uninteresting questions like "this die mechanic has this result curve", it's all, ultimately, opinion. It's often opinion backed with "these other opinions with occasional facts support my conclusion", but, in the end, it's always "This is what I want out of a game."
That said:
The D&D spell system is made for generalist casters, characters who can throw lightning, and summon a demon, and punch people with a big glowy hand, and, and, and.
If you just made a list of "these are the psychic spells, and the psychic caster can choose from them", you tend to end up with a psychic character who can speak telepathically, and move objects with their mind -- but only to injure people, and do long-range teleports -- but not short, and see the future a little, etc.
This fails to match the fiction that it's attempting to evoke.
And yes, you can choose coherent powers. Maybe. If there's enough of them.
It's lot like trying to make a fire mage. You end up with all the interesting fire spells, and then more attack spells than you actually need, because that's all there is. Lots of the generally useful spells are outside your scope. You can either take them and compromise your concept, deliberately make your character weaker, or do unsatisfying rechroming. ("I counter your spell... WITH FIRE! No, no... it doesn't do any damage or anything. It's just a counterspell.") If you could choose to only pick fire powers, and actually get something for it, likely access to better fire spells that only fire mages have, you'd be all over that. But that ain't how it works.
And, once you've abandoned the standard spell system anyway, you need some kind of way to manage your resources.
No, the D&D classes are made for that. That's essentially unrelated to spell slots, you'd see the same effect on a spell point system. The main thing it does is encourage you to change which your primary spells are as you level up, which could be fixed by spells with better scaling on upcasting.
I believe I've commented that psi is just the specialist caster problem before.
The bolded, right here? This is why psionics is never going to be a thing wholly diverged from magic; the rest of the system simply isn't built with a treehouse magic system in mind and as such would either require a massive overhaul of the monster compendium and/or class options to allow for counter-play (which would piss off psi enthusiasts) or just leave them with an absurd exploit (Which would piss off everyone else).
Alternately, GM's just keep contriving limitations on Psions in order to bring them down to earth which is basically bullying.
The characters it makes.
A system's purpose is what it does. The D&D spell system does nothing to induce players not to play generalists. Taking a specific spell closes off no future options. It does nothing to incentivize any future spell choice. The larger game rewards flexibility. The hypothetical fire mage fares poorly against fire-resistant foes, and gets no benefit for being a fire mage.
There would have to be a different method of counter-play, but that is not, in and of itself impossible.
Most monsters would be unaffected. Not only is the CR system a mess anyway, right now, but just as most monsters have no special general resistances to magic, there is no reason for them to have any special general resistances to psionics. Fire is fire is fire, whether created chemically, magically or using pyrokinesis and one can substitute in any different damage type in there (and psychic power name associated with that damage type) and the logic still apply.
Balancing issues center more around the fact that psi powers traditionally have fewer drawbacks (subtlety, more likely to be 'on demand,' not shut down as easily by magic, etc) than magical ones do, which is why I am saying that they would be, IMO, difficult to impossible to balance well.
Also, I have some suggestions for people who want D&D/superheroes/RPGs with psionics:
Palladium Fantasy RPG This is very much a classic fantasy RPG from the Palladium megaversal system which offers players a plethora of different classes including no less then 4 dedicated psychic classes (Sensitive, Healer, Mystic and Mind Mage) as well as allowing non-dedicated psychic classes to have access to a handful of minor powers if their race allows for it.
Beyond the supernatural Another Classic from the folks at palladium books; virtually all of the character classes in this game are psychics of varying sorts acting (typically) as psychic investigators dealing with supernatural elements and trying to leverage their more focused power sets to allow them to complete their jobs.
Heroes unlimited! One of the first RPG's I "got gud" at way back in the mid 90's, Heroes unlimited presents a plethora of different superhero archetypes including the Psionic character class.
Best part of these products? They operate on the same rule set and thus can be merged by a GM to varying degrees to create new and unique settings and worlds.
You mean 4e, the thing 5e was objectively a clear step up from? Why yes, yes it did, thanks for proving my point.
They "very clearly actually designed" 5e too. You may not like what they designed, but design it they did. And if the objective was to have design that would be accessible for newcomers but have the depth to retain veterans, they nailed that.
And if you're not asking for psionics to be casters, but be equal to casters... again, how?
Uh, I'm the one who's happy with spell slots for psionics, remember? You're the one who wants a functioning bread submarine, the burden of that "imagination" is on you. I'm not going to construct your argument for you.
It's also worth noting that by going off meta with your spell choices you can wind up with some really fun and creative solutions to problems that you wouldn't have by playing as a generalist; Like an enchanter playing mind games all over the place or an illusionist gas lighting people in real time would be hilariously fun.
And yet... everybody does. Lots of them.
You're also pulling subclasses into the penumbra of the spell system, which seems a bit of a stretch. And there are more casters than just wizards. And, to be frank, wizard subclasses in general are pretty unimpressive, and most of them do very little to really incentivize spell choice.
I would suggest you look again; virtually all demons, yugoloths and devils have innate magic resistance which psionics (by virtue of being not magic) will just bypass giving them a massive leg up over all the caster classes. Ergo they would either need to be reworked or left with a massive weakness relative to other characters.
Furthermore, I already outlined an example of how this Loophole turns into a problem for the game as a whole when I explained how it undermines the entire point of a Beholder fight: that players are going to have to play around the absence of magic (which happens if the central eye is staring at you) or it's ability to obliterate you (the central eye isn't which allows it to use all the other eye stalks (including the one that disintegrates)) which leads to them and the GM both having to get really inventive and just having a really good time with unorthodox tactics and strategy as opposed to just using the tactic(tm).
This combined with the lack of counterplay (since it typically only requires you to be conscious... and sometimes that's not even a limitation) means that GMs and other players are going to be stuck with a character that is wildly overpowered and simply unfun to have as a party member.
Really, this whole thing just comes off as kind of silly to me since one of the biggest problems with 3rd was that it was built to make caster classes these unasailable gods that the mechanics couldn't actually reign in or contain. Fifth has taken great pains to ensure that in giving them a breadth of abilities they were never again going to be in a position where they could one shot bosses or have unlimited actions per turn or any of a billion "Feature not a bug" mechanics that were present before... and now we have people arguing for the ability to simply ignore those carefully contained mechanics.
"Objective" is a word with a meaning.
5e is objectively more popular than 4e. That's about the only way you can compare the two objectively.
In terms of clean and functional systems design, I don't think it's even close. But that's still not objective.
You're the one who's arguing that standard casters or highly-rigid subclasses are the only viable path to psychic characters.
You said:
I merely asked you to consider the possibility that soulknife is not the only direction possible from that starting point.
You are clearly unwilling.
I mean... Soul knife and Psi-warrior seem to be exactly what you're asking for WRT a psi class: you have a handful of Power Points (PP), curtailed powers that you can use to achieve specific effects and no spell slots.
Saying 'All creatures of this class (demons, for instance) that are resistant to magic are resistant to psionics, too' is hardly a difficult thing to manage.
But you are essentially repeating what I just said (bolded) and treating it as some sort of rebuttal.
Or you can just accept that psionics is magic and subject to the same rules and mechanics.
Simply because upper and lower planar creatures exist and are powerful?
As I said, simply changing the name does not change the nature.
No, but implementing whole new mechanics without actually taking into consideration the ramifications on the extent mechanics of the game is an incredibly bad idea particularly when the reason for doing so comes across as utterly whimsical.