For something that is magical from our view, but not magical in game, Blind Fighting Fighting Style would be one example. A deaf human Fighter in complete darkness could get that Fighting Style and be able to "see" with a limited range for example, even though there is no realistic way that they can do that from our real life perspective. Just because something is magical to us does not mean that it has to be magical in the game.
I can explain that via a lot of methods without ever having to rely on "magic"
Tactile: the character is able to feel a combination of vibrations in the ground and changes in the air around then causing them to have a better sense of changes in their immediate environment.
Chemoreceptors: Less likely but plausible, the character is able to sense the presence of their opponent by smell.
Instinct: The character's fighting skills have been honed to the point where they can intuitively sense the presence of those around them.
Echolocalitations by humans is totally possible in the real life. Even you can find in the wikipedia an article about that.
* What about the magic beasts with spell-like abilities? For example the shocker lizard, and other no-sentient pokemon-like creatures. They can't understand the arcane magic but they can enjoy some magic powers, or should we say psionic?
* This debate is like members of different urban tribes arguing about if they would wear certain clothing. Someones would do it and others didn't.
* Even if WotC wanted to update the psionic powers, some players would want to be added ideas from different 3PPs.
* What is the difference between a mystic and a sorcerer? The sorcerer uses magic like a tool, and this is right, but the mystic works more about the "within power" or being "attuned" with cosmic forces. Then the jedi knights would be mystic or psionic more than arcane magic.
For something that is magical from our view, but not magical in game, Blind Fighting Fighting Style would be one example. A deaf human Fighter in complete darkness could get that Fighting Style and be able to "see" with a limited range for example, even though there is no realistic way that they can do that from our real life perspective. Just because something is magical to us does not mean that it has to be magical in the game.
I can explain that via a lot of methods without ever having to rely on "magic"
Tactile: the character is able to feel a combination of vibrations in the ground and changes in the air around then causing them to have a better sense of changes in their immediate environment.
Chemoreceptors: Less likely but plausible, the character is able to sense the presence of their opponent by smell.
Instinct: The character's fighting skills have been honed to the point where they can intuitively sense the presence of those around them.
Or some combination of all 3.
But are those methods really realistic though? Even with a combination of them, I do not think it is realistic to expect a human to develop their senses to the point of blindsight as it is described in the game.
Obviously, it can be argued that D&D humans are different from real life humans, and D&D humans naturally has the capacity to develop their senses to the point of blindsight. And by the same token, it can also be argued that psionics is also a natural part of D&D's reality, and psionics in itself is not inherently magical, but it can be magical depending on the circumstance.
I do not think it is challenging to discern whether an ability is magical or not. If an ability does not say it is magical, then it is not magical. It is as simple as that.
My point wasn't that it's hard to discern whether an ability is magical, it's that it's hard to discern why it is or isn't magical (though it's not as easy as you say; for example, telepathy in the subclass doesn't say it's magical, but the description of the telepathy power in the monster manual does).
Fair point about information not being easily accessible in its entirety. Unless you are a GM and have skimmed most of the rulebooks, you might not realize some abilities are magical. Even if you are a GM, you might not always remember what is magical and what is not.
I am not sure if it is necessary for us to discern why a magical effect (from our perspective) is magical or not magical (in game mechanic terms). The laws of physics are different, so what might seem magical to us could just be mundane in the D&D universe.
Not all class abilities in those subclasses are magical in nature. For Aberrant Mind and Soulknife, I guess most of their abilities are magical, but Psychic Defense (Aberrant Mind) and Psi Bolstered Knack (Soulknife) are non magical. For Psi Warrior, Psionic Strike (and by extension Telekinetic Thrust) and Telekinetic Master are magical, but the rest of the abilities are not.
I'm aware of that but that's exactly my point. The abilities that are not magical are not on par with spellcasting, thus them not interacting with the things that affect/detect/counter spellcasting is unnecessary.
If you want psionics to be de facto weaker, then having it be opaque to spellcasting things is fine. But that's not the impression I got reading this thread - rather, the impression I got is that psionics proponents want it to be on par with spellcasting, but without that factor that would keep it properly balanced or supported.
This is a situation where the looseness of 5e mechanics causes issues. In 3e or 4e you could just look at an abilities' tags and determine how it interacted with other mechanics (for example, an anti-magic field would apply to abilities tagged Su or Sp, but not Ex) but 5e for some reason decided that power tagging was a bad idea, so you wind up needing to do textual analysis.
Even in 3.5 where we had those tags though, the balance considerations remained. Ex and Na abilities, which were able to ignore antimagic and detection etc, were generally not on par with Su and Sp/Ps abilities which didn't.
Not all class abilities in those subclasses are magical in nature. For Aberrant Mind and Soulknife, I guess most of their abilities are magical, but Psychic Defense (Aberrant Mind) and Psi Bolstered Knack (Soulknife) are non magical. For Psi Warrior, Psionic Strike (and by extension Telekinetic Thrust) and Telekinetic Master are magical, but the rest of the abilities are not.
I'm aware of that but that's exactly my point. The abilities that are not magical are not on par with spellcasting, thus them not interacting with the things that affect/detect/counter spellcasting is unnecessary.
If you want psionics to be de facto weaker, then having it be opaque to spellcasting things is fine. But that's not the impression I got reading this thread - rather, the impression I got is that psionics proponents want it to be on par with spellcasting, but without that factor that would keep it properly balanced or supported.
Based on that logic, a dragon's breath weapon, since it has nothing to do with Spellcasting ability, should be weaker than any cast spell, or that racial or class based darkvision must be inferior to that provided by a cast spell. It is neither true, nor does it follow that such absolute statements need to be absolutes for there to be balance.
Based on that logic, a dragon's breath weapon, since it has nothing to do with Spellcasting ability, should be weaker than any cast spell, or that racial or class based darkvision must be inferior to that provided by a cast spell. It is neither true, nor does it follow that such absolute statements need to be absolutes for there to be balance.
Weaker than a given spell, obviously that depends on the spell - but weaker than spellcasting in general, yes, it should be. Generally, a dragon's breath weapon does a set amount of damage in a line or cone. It is in no way as powerful or versatile as spellcasting in general, and that's why it doesn't need to be transparent.
Based on that logic, a dragon's breath weapon, since it has nothing to do with Spellcasting ability, should be weaker than any cast spell, or that racial or class based darkvision must be inferior to that provided by a cast spell. It is neither true, nor does it follow that such absolute statements need to be absolutes for there to be balance.
Dragons are not PCs; there's no way of telling whether dragon's breath is strong or weak for its level because monsters don't have levels.
Not all class abilities in those subclasses are magical in nature. For Aberrant Mind and Soulknife, I guess most of their abilities are magical, but Psychic Defense (Aberrant Mind) and Psi Bolstered Knack (Soulknife) are non magical. For Psi Warrior, Psionic Strike (and by extension Telekinetic Thrust) and Telekinetic Master are magical, but the rest of the abilities are not.
I'm aware of that but that's exactly my point. The abilities that are not magical are not on par with spellcasting, thus them not interacting with the things that affect/detect/counter spellcasting is unnecessary.
If you want psionics to be de facto weaker, then having it be opaque to spellcasting things is fine. But that's not the impression I got reading this thread - rather, the impression I got is that psionics proponents want it to be on par with spellcasting, but without that factor that would keep it properly balanced or supported.
Based on that logic, a dragon's breath weapon, since it has nothing to do with Spellcasting ability, should be weaker than any cast spell, or that racial or class based darkvision must be inferior to that provided by a cast spell. It is neither true, nor does it follow that such absolute statements need to be absolutes for there to be balance.
Dragons aren’t PCs, though. So, they don’t face the same balancing issues.
And Darkvision?
Plus, despite the fact that a PC of sufficient level and able to cast the spell could shapechange into a CR 18 to 20 Dragon, Dragons are not balanced with that in mind. They simply are not. And therefore, Shapechange is not balanced to that level of analysis, either.
Not all class abilities in those subclasses are magical in nature. For Aberrant Mind and Soulknife, I guess most of their abilities are magical, but Psychic Defense (Aberrant Mind) and Psi Bolstered Knack (Soulknife) are non magical. For Psi Warrior, Psionic Strike (and by extension Telekinetic Thrust) and Telekinetic Master are magical, but the rest of the abilities are not.
I'm aware of that but that's exactly my point. The abilities that are not magical are not on par with spellcasting, thus them not interacting with the things that affect/detect/counter spellcasting is unnecessary.
If you want psionics to be de facto weaker, then having it be opaque to spellcasting things is fine. But that's not the impression I got reading this thread - rather, the impression I got is that psionics proponents want it to be on par with spellcasting, but without that factor that would keep it properly balanced or supported.
Abilities do not have to be magical to be on par with spells or magical abilities. Being magical is one way to limit the power of psionic abilities, but not all psionic abilities need to be magical to be powerful. Resource consumption, frequency, accessibility, and level requirements are other ways to balance them.
Not all spells are equally powerful either, and some spells can be freely cast as rituals to buff them up. And some magical abilities are so mundane that they do not require spellcasting nor consuming spell slots at all (Aberrant Mind's telepathy is a bit weaker than a monster's telepathy, and while it costs a bonus action, it is practically free to use).
I want psionics (and other systems like Invocations, Metamagic, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, Channel Divinity, etc.) to be expanded and be more powerful. They do not have to have the same depth and max power as spell casting, but a quarter of the depth with max power around 8th level spells is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
Plus, despite the fact that a PC of sufficient level and able to cast the spell could shapechange into a CR 18 to 20 Dragon, Dragons are not balanced with that in mind. They simply are not. And therefore, Shapechange is not balanced to that level of analysis, either.
Honestly, tier 3 and 4 balance is a trainwreck already, but it won't help anything to add a new category of broken ability that isn't affected by anti-magic effects, as that's one of the few things keeping it remotely non-broken (arguably a wizard shapeshifted into a dragon arguably can't use a breath weapon into a AMF even though an actual dragon could, because it's a magical dragon in that case. Same for summons).
Abilities do not have to be magical to be on par with spells or magical abilities. Being magical is one way to limit the power of psionic abilities, but not all psionic abilities need to be magical to be powerful. Resource consumption, frequency, accessibility, and level requirements are other ways to balance them.
All of those vectors do matter, but you can't simply ignore interactivity and interoperability with the rest of the system. I mean, you can, but then your design is going to have pretty glaring flaws.
For example, a big part of Vecna the Archlich's power comes from his multiple abilities to disrupt or protect himself from spellcasters. If instead you come after him without spellcasters, you won't be weak to those abilities, but you'll have many other weaknesses instead. All of that is intentional by the designers. But if instead you come along and invent something that's functionally spellcasting but gets to ignore the limitations that spells have, then that throws the balance for such monsters out the window. And it's not just the monsters, it permeates the system - feats, class abilities, items etc.
Not all spells are equally powerful either, and some spells can be freely cast as rituals to buff them up. And some magical abilities are so mundane that they do not require spellcasting nor consuming spell slots at all (Aberrant Mind's telepathy is a bit weaker than a monster's telepathy, and while it costs a bonus action, it is practically free to use).
I want psionics (and other systems like Invocations, Metamagic, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, Channel Divinity, etc.) to be expanded and be more powerful. They do not have to have the same depth and max power as spell casting, but a quarter of the depth with max power around 8th level spells is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
Sure, spells aren't equal, but they do roughly fall into scaling bands by spell level. Sleep for example is extremely powerful at levels 1-3 before falling off - so if you have a psionic power that does the same thing at those levels, it needs the same or similar weaknesses too. And when your starting point is removing several of those weaknesses and replacing them with nothing, you're already starting from a backwards position. Note too that those problems show up long before 15th level (when your 8ths cap would come into play.)
But are those methods really realistic though? Even with a combination of them, I do not think it is realistic to expect a human to develop their senses to the point of blindsight as it is described in the game.
You are speaking of realism in a setting where the average person can carry 150 lbs indefinitely and consumes a single pound of food per day while going off to fight a reptile with similar size and mass to a greyhound bus that is nevertheless able to achieve flight and project fire, lightning, poisonous mist, acid or sub zero temperatures.
Plus, despite the fact that a PC of sufficient level and able to cast the spell could shapechange into a CR 18 to 20 Dragon, Dragons are not balanced with that in mind. They simply are not. And therefore, Shapechange is not balanced to that level of analysis, either.
Honestly, tier 3 and 4 balance is a trainwreck already, but it won't help anything to add a new category of broken ability that isn't affected by anti-magic effects, as that's one of the few things keeping it remotely non-broken (arguably a wizard shapeshifted into a dragon arguably can't use a breath weapon into a AMF even though an actual dragon could, because it's a magical dragon in that case. Same for summons).
If a DM's adventure is really make or break on whether the breath weapon of a caster shapeshifted into dragon form is magical or not, I put that on the DM not the rules.
Plus, despite the fact that a PC of sufficient level and able to cast the spell could shapechange into a CR 18 to 20 Dragon, Dragons are not balanced with that in mind. They simply are not. And therefore, Shapechange is not balanced to that level of analysis, either.
Honestly, tier 3 and 4 balance is a trainwreck already, but it won't help anything to add a new category of broken ability that isn't affected by anti-magic effects, as that's one of the few things keeping it remotely non-broken (arguably a wizard shapeshifted into a dragon arguably can't use a breath weapon into a AMF even though an actual dragon could, because it's a magical dragon in that case. Same for summons).
If a DM's adventure is really make or break on whether the breath weapon of a caster shapeshifted into dragon form is magical or not, I put that on the DM not the rules.
5e gets reaaaal silly once you get past like, level 12 and I can't really hold it against a GM if the players are able to weaponize their sprawling arsenal of spells in new and derpy way's they couldn't have expected.
Abilities do not have to be magical to be on par with spells or magical abilities. Being magical is one way to limit the power of psionic abilities, but not all psionic abilities need to be magical to be powerful. Resource consumption, frequency, accessibility, and level requirements are other ways to balance them.
All of those vectors do matter, but you can't simply ignore interactivity and interoperability with the rest of the system. I mean, you can, but then your design is going to have pretty glaring flaws.
For example, a big part of Vecna the Archlich's power comes from his multiple abilities to disrupt or protect himself from spellcasters. If instead you come after him without spellcasters, you won't be weak to those abilities, but you'll have many other weaknesses instead. All of that is intentional by the designers. But if instead you come along and invent something that's functionally spellcasting but gets to ignore the limitations that spells have, then that throws the balance for such monsters out the window. And it's not just the monsters, it permeates the system - feats, class abilities, items etc.
Not every ability in the system needs complete interactivity and interoperability with the rest of the system or other systems. Hexblade's Eldritch Smite consumes a spell slot, but it is not a spell, so it is a bit harder to counter. Divine Intervention does not interact with the spell system if the GM does not want it to. Draconic sorcerers got Dragon Wings. Fighter's Blind Fighting is always on. Partial interactivity and interoperability is totally fine. Being a spell or magical is not the only way something can be balanced.
Not all spells are equally powerful either, and some spells can be freely cast as rituals to buff them up. And some magical abilities are so mundane that they do not require spellcasting nor consuming spell slots at all (Aberrant Mind's telepathy is a bit weaker than a monster's telepathy, and while it costs a bonus action, it is practically free to use).
I want psionics (and other systems like Invocations, Metamagic, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, Channel Divinity, etc.) to be expanded and be more powerful. They do not have to have the same depth and max power as spell casting, but a quarter of the depth with max power around 8th level spells is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
Sure, spells aren't equal, but they do roughly fall into scaling bands by spell level. Sleep for example is extremely powerful at levels 1-3 before falling off - so if you have a psionic power that does the same thing at those levels, it needs the same or similar weaknesses too. And when your starting point is removing several of those weaknesses and replacing them with nothing, you're already starting from a backwards position. Note too that those problems show up long before 15th level (when your 8ths cap would come into play.)
I literally just gave some examples of ways to balance psionic abilities, like resource consumption or frequency. Psionics is no different from any other ability system. How am I starting from a backwards position? I want psionics to be expanded and be given more power, at least have similar depth to Invocations, Ki, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, etc., and I want all those systems be more powerful to close the gap they have with the spell system.
But are those methods really realistic though? Even with a combination of them, I do not think it is realistic to expect a human to develop their senses to the point of blindsight as it is described in the game.
You are speaking of realism in a setting where the average person can carry 150 lbs indefinitely and consumes a single pound of food per day while going off to fight a reptile with similar size and mass to a greyhound bus that is nevertheless able to achieve flight and project fire, lightning, poisonous mist, acid or sub zero temperatures.
And my point by the same token is that not all magic is magical. Just as we do not apply realism from our perspective to the D&D world, we do not apply what is magical from our prespective to the D&D world.
Psionics is obviosly magical to us in the real world, but psionics does not have be magical from D&D's perspective, and it already is not magical by default. Divine Intervention is not magical by default either, and no one bats an eye.
Not every ability in the system needs complete interactivity and interoperability with the rest of the system or other systems. Hexblade's Eldritch Smite consumes a spell slot, but it is not a spell, so it is a bit harder to counter. Divine Intervention does not interact with the spell system if the GM does not want it to. Draconic sorcerers got Dragon Wings. Fighter's Blind Fighting is always on. Partial interactivity and interoperability is totally fine. Being a spell or magical is not the only way something can be balanced.
None of your examples except DI have sufficient power for transparency to matter, and even that one is (a) recommended to be a spell, and (b) even if it isn't, it's still balanced by needing 7 long rests between successful uses. Somehow, I don't think you'd want that drawback for your psionics system.
I literally just gave some examples of ways to balance psionic abilities, like resource consumption or frequency. Psionics is no different from any other ability system. How am I starting from a backwards position? I want psionics to be expanded and be given more power, at least have similar depth to Invocations, Ki, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, etc., and I want all those systems be more powerful to close the gap they have with the spell system.
Invocations*, Ki powers*, Maneuvers, and Fighting Styles don't need transparency because they don't have the power of spells.
If you're talking about bringing them up to the level of spellcasting, you'll need to overhaul the entire game, so good luck with that.
*The invocations and ki powers that do, generally involve duplicating spells themselves.
Psionics is obviosly magical to us in the real world, but psionics does not have be magical from D&D's perspective, and it already is not magical by default. Divine Intervention is not magical by default either, and no one bats an eye.
If your psionics system needed 7 long rests between each use I'm pretty sure you'd bat an eye at that.
Plus, despite the fact that a PC of sufficient level and able to cast the spell could shapechange into a CR 18 to 20 Dragon, Dragons are not balanced with that in mind. They simply are not. And therefore, Shapechange is not balanced to that level of analysis, either.
Honestly, tier 3 and 4 balance is a trainwreck already, but it won't help anything to add a new category of broken ability that isn't affected by anti-magic effects, as that's one of the few things keeping it remotely non-broken (arguably a wizard shapeshifted into a dragon arguably can't use a breath weapon into a AMF even though an actual dragon could, because it's a magical dragon in that case. Same for summons).
If a DM's adventure is really make or break on whether the breath weapon of a caster shapeshifted into dragon form is magical or not, I put that on the DM not the rules.
5e gets reaaaal silly once you get past like, level 12 and I can't really hold it against a GM if the players are able to weaponize their sprawling arsenal of spells in new and derpy way's they couldn't have expected.
DMs have literally infinite power within their worlds. It is never a contest player vs DM and the DM is only constrained by the rules to the extent of giving the players a sufficient level of predictable certainty that they retain agency.
This traditionally means not tossing that great power around casually, as they are interacting more and more often with the true greater powers of the world, with correspondingly increased stakes.
This shift is the main reason a lot of campaigns do simply end, either by way of the DM not understanding how to do that well or the players deciding on their own to act like they already rule the world and the DM simply letting them.
And my point by the same token is that not all magic is magical. Just as we do not apply realism from our perspective to the D&D world, we do not apply what is magical from our prespective to the D&D world.
Psionics is obviosly magical to us in the real world, but psionics does not have be magical from D&D's perspective, and it already is not magical by default. Divine Intervention is not magical by default either, and no one bats an eye.
You have misinterpreted my point, either because you legitimately missed the point that I was making earlier on the subject of psionics or because you wanted to move it into terms you were more comfortable with so allow me to clarify this matter:
As I am not playing mage: the ascension, I do not care how something is percieved by the people of the local environment. If they see a wizard shoot a fireball it does not matter if they think this is a man twisting the forces of the universe, a psychic manifestation of his will, the chemical reaction between bat guano and sulfur in orb format, a naturally occurring phenomenon fully divorced from the man in the floppy hat or an optical illusion. What I care about in this matter is what are the actual gameplay mechanics at work here and do they conform to the system that I have been working with for the past ten years.
This is why I insist that psionics has to conform to the mechanical systems of magic because if you don't have that then it creates a gaping hole in the mechanics of a ten years of material.
Also having double checked on divine intervention it would in point of fact be blocked by an antimagic field according to the strictest interpretation of the rules due to the fact that you are typically getting them to cast a spell.
5e gets reaaaal silly once you get past like, level 12 and I can't really hold it against a GM if the players are able to weaponize their sprawling arsenal of spells in new and derpy way's they couldn't have expected.
DMs have literally infinite power within their worlds. It is never a contest player vs DM and the DM is only constrained by the rules to the extent of giving the players a sufficient level of predictable certainty that they retain agency.
This traditionally means not tossing that great power around casually, as they are interacting more and more often with the true greater powers of the world, with correspondingly increased stakes.
This shift is the main reason a lot of campaigns do simply end, either by way of the DM not understanding how to do that well or the players deciding on their own to act like they already rule the world and the DM simply letting them.
This would be why most campaigns terminate before they get into the upper echelons of levels: past a certain point the game becomes incredibly difficult for a GM to parse the possibilities of player actions when they could concievably have dozens of different spells which can interact with each other for new and incredibly derpy effects.
So again: I can not blame a GM for not foreseeing players engaging in creative use of their abilities and thereby upending a campaign that has gone past level 12.
None of your examples except DI have sufficient power for transparency to matter, and even that one is (a) recommended to be a spell, and (b) even if it isn't, it's still balanced by needing 7 long rests between successful uses. Somehow, I don't think you'd want that drawback for your psionics system.
If that was all they had, sure, but keep in mind that is an ability that can do literally whatever the DM wants it to do. Even limiting it to the example of 'Any clerical spell or any domain spell,' that can be a cost-free true resurrection.... at level 10. And the 7 days is only if the DM grants the intervention. If the DM does not, that timer doesn't even start yet.
AND it is just one clerical ability.
But let's go smaller scale. Do you agree that the ability to stab someone with a pointy stick is non-magical? Even when it can do more damage than a cantrip? This "The power of spells" phrase is not the absolute you seem to think it is.
This is why I insist that psionics has to conform to the mechanical systems of magic because if you don't have that then it creates a gaping hole in the mechanics of a ten years of material.
Also having double checked on divine intervention it would in point of fact be blocked by an antimagic field according to the strictest interpretation of the rules due to the fact that you are typically getting them to cast a spell.
This would be why most campaigns terminate before they get into the upper echelons of levels: past a certain point the game becomes incredibly difficult for a GM to parse the possibilities of player actions when they could concievably have dozens of different spells which can interact with each other for new and incredibly derpy effects.
So again: I can not blame a GM for not foreseeing players engaging in creative use of their abilities and thereby upending a campaign that has gone past level 12.
Pretty certain that the personal comfort zone of any one player has no bearing on whether something is or is not a viable new rule for any given game they might play.
And "typically" only typically triggers rules.
There are also people who run higher level campaigns and there are people who play in them. There are people who feel that checkers is too simple for them and play chess instead. There are people who feel chess is too mechanical and play poker, instead and yet others who like the problem solving of escape rooms. D&D incorporates bits of all these (and a few other) types of games and the exact blend will vary between tables.
It is fair game to say "Psionics are not my thing." It is another to say "Psionics are not your thing."
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I can explain that via a lot of methods without ever having to rely on "magic"
Or some combination of all 3.
Echolocalitations by humans is totally possible in the real life. Even you can find in the wikipedia an article about that.
* What about the magic beasts with spell-like abilities? For example the shocker lizard, and other no-sentient pokemon-like creatures. They can't understand the arcane magic but they can enjoy some magic powers, or should we say psionic?
* This debate is like members of different urban tribes arguing about if they would wear certain clothing. Someones would do it and others didn't.
* Even if WotC wanted to update the psionic powers, some players would want to be added ideas from different 3PPs.
* What is the difference between a mystic and a sorcerer? The sorcerer uses magic like a tool, and this is right, but the mystic works more about the "within power" or being "attuned" with cosmic forces. Then the jedi knights would be mystic or psionic more than arcane magic.
But are those methods really realistic though? Even with a combination of them, I do not think it is realistic to expect a human to develop their senses to the point of blindsight as it is described in the game.
Obviously, it can be argued that D&D humans are different from real life humans, and D&D humans naturally has the capacity to develop their senses to the point of blindsight. And by the same token, it can also be argued that psionics is also a natural part of D&D's reality, and psionics in itself is not inherently magical, but it can be magical depending on the circumstance.
Fair point about information not being easily accessible in its entirety. Unless you are a GM and have skimmed most of the rulebooks, you might not realize some abilities are magical. Even if you are a GM, you might not always remember what is magical and what is not.
I am not sure if it is necessary for us to discern why a magical effect (from our perspective) is magical or not magical (in game mechanic terms). The laws of physics are different, so what might seem magical to us could just be mundane in the D&D universe.
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I'm aware of that but that's exactly my point. The abilities that are not magical are not on par with spellcasting, thus them not interacting with the things that affect/detect/counter spellcasting is unnecessary.
If you want psionics to be de facto weaker, then having it be opaque to spellcasting things is fine. But that's not the impression I got reading this thread - rather, the impression I got is that psionics proponents want it to be on par with spellcasting, but without that factor that would keep it properly balanced or supported.
Even in 3.5 where we had those tags though, the balance considerations remained. Ex and Na abilities, which were able to ignore antimagic and detection etc, were generally not on par with Su and Sp/Ps abilities which didn't.
Based on that logic, a dragon's breath weapon, since it has nothing to do with Spellcasting ability, should be weaker than any cast spell, or that racial or class based darkvision must be inferior to that provided by a cast spell. It is neither true, nor does it follow that such absolute statements need to be absolutes for there to be balance.
Weaker than a given spell, obviously that depends on the spell - but weaker than spellcasting in general, yes, it should be. Generally, a dragon's breath weapon does a set amount of damage in a line or cone. It is in no way as powerful or versatile as spellcasting in general, and that's why it doesn't need to be transparent.
Dragons are not PCs; there's no way of telling whether dragon's breath is strong or weak for its level because monsters don't have levels.
And Darkvision?
Plus, despite the fact that a PC of sufficient level and able to cast the spell could shapechange into a CR 18 to 20 Dragon, Dragons are not balanced with that in mind. They simply are not. And therefore, Shapechange is not balanced to that level of analysis, either.
Abilities do not have to be magical to be on par with spells or magical abilities. Being magical is one way to limit the power of psionic abilities, but not all psionic abilities need to be magical to be powerful. Resource consumption, frequency, accessibility, and level requirements are other ways to balance them.
Not all spells are equally powerful either, and some spells can be freely cast as rituals to buff them up. And some magical abilities are so mundane that they do not require spellcasting nor consuming spell slots at all (Aberrant Mind's telepathy is a bit weaker than a monster's telepathy, and while it costs a bonus action, it is practically free to use).
I want psionics (and other systems like Invocations, Metamagic, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, Channel Divinity, etc.) to be expanded and be more powerful. They do not have to have the same depth and max power as spell casting, but a quarter of the depth with max power around 8th level spells is pretty reasonable in my opinion.
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Honestly, tier 3 and 4 balance is a trainwreck already, but it won't help anything to add a new category of broken ability that isn't affected by anti-magic effects, as that's one of the few things keeping it remotely non-broken (arguably a wizard shapeshifted into a dragon arguably can't use a breath weapon into a AMF even though an actual dragon could, because it's a magical dragon in that case. Same for summons).
All of those vectors do matter, but you can't simply ignore interactivity and interoperability with the rest of the system. I mean, you can, but then your design is going to have pretty glaring flaws.
For example, a big part of Vecna the Archlich's power comes from his multiple abilities to disrupt or protect himself from spellcasters. If instead you come after him without spellcasters, you won't be weak to those abilities, but you'll have many other weaknesses instead. All of that is intentional by the designers. But if instead you come along and invent something that's functionally spellcasting but gets to ignore the limitations that spells have, then that throws the balance for such monsters out the window. And it's not just the monsters, it permeates the system - feats, class abilities, items etc.
Sure, spells aren't equal, but they do roughly fall into scaling bands by spell level. Sleep for example is extremely powerful at levels 1-3 before falling off - so if you have a psionic power that does the same thing at those levels, it needs the same or similar weaknesses too. And when your starting point is removing several of those weaknesses and replacing them with nothing, you're already starting from a backwards position. Note too that those problems show up long before 15th level (when your 8ths cap would come into play.)
You are speaking of realism in a setting where the average person can carry 150 lbs indefinitely and consumes a single pound of food per day while going off to fight a reptile with similar size and mass to a greyhound bus that is nevertheless able to achieve flight and project fire, lightning, poisonous mist, acid or sub zero temperatures.
If a DM's adventure is really make or break on whether the breath weapon of a caster shapeshifted into dragon form is magical or not, I put that on the DM not the rules.
5e gets reaaaal silly once you get past like, level 12 and I can't really hold it against a GM if the players are able to weaponize their sprawling arsenal of spells in new and derpy way's they couldn't have expected.
Not every ability in the system needs complete interactivity and interoperability with the rest of the system or other systems. Hexblade's Eldritch Smite consumes a spell slot, but it is not a spell, so it is a bit harder to counter. Divine Intervention does not interact with the spell system if the GM does not want it to. Draconic sorcerers got Dragon Wings. Fighter's Blind Fighting is always on. Partial interactivity and interoperability is totally fine. Being a spell or magical is not the only way something can be balanced.
I literally just gave some examples of ways to balance psionic abilities, like resource consumption or frequency. Psionics is no different from any other ability system. How am I starting from a backwards position? I want psionics to be expanded and be given more power, at least have similar depth to Invocations, Ki, Maneuvers, Fighting Styles, etc., and I want all those systems be more powerful to close the gap they have with the spell system.
And my point by the same token is that not all magic is magical. Just as we do not apply realism from our perspective to the D&D world, we do not apply what is magical from our prespective to the D&D world.
Psionics is obviosly magical to us in the real world, but psionics does not have be magical from D&D's perspective, and it already is not magical by default. Divine Intervention is not magical by default either, and no one bats an eye.
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None of your examples except DI have sufficient power for transparency to matter, and even that one is (a) recommended to be a spell, and (b) even if it isn't, it's still balanced by needing 7 long rests between successful uses. Somehow, I don't think you'd want that drawback for your psionics system.
Invocations*, Ki powers*, Maneuvers, and Fighting Styles don't need transparency because they don't have the power of spells.
If you're talking about bringing them up to the level of spellcasting, you'll need to overhaul the entire game, so good luck with that.
*The invocations and ki powers that do, generally involve duplicating spells themselves.
If your psionics system needed 7 long rests between each use I'm pretty sure you'd bat an eye at that.
DMs have literally infinite power within their worlds. It is never a contest player vs DM and the DM is only constrained by the rules to the extent of giving the players a sufficient level of predictable certainty that they retain agency.
This traditionally means not tossing that great power around casually, as they are interacting more and more often with the true greater powers of the world, with correspondingly increased stakes.
This shift is the main reason a lot of campaigns do simply end, either by way of the DM not understanding how to do that well or the players deciding on their own to act like they already rule the world and the DM simply letting them.
You have misinterpreted my point, either because you legitimately missed the point that I was making earlier on the subject of psionics or because you wanted to move it into terms you were more comfortable with so allow me to clarify this matter:
As I am not playing mage: the ascension, I do not care how something is percieved by the people of the local environment. If they see a wizard shoot a fireball it does not matter if they think this is a man twisting the forces of the universe, a psychic manifestation of his will, the chemical reaction between bat guano and sulfur in orb format, a naturally occurring phenomenon fully divorced from the man in the floppy hat or an optical illusion. What I care about in this matter is what are the actual gameplay mechanics at work here and do they conform to the system that I have been working with for the past ten years.
This is why I insist that psionics has to conform to the mechanical systems of magic because if you don't have that then it creates a gaping hole in the mechanics of a ten years of material.
Also having double checked on divine intervention it would in point of fact be blocked by an antimagic field according to the strictest interpretation of the rules due to the fact that you are typically getting them to cast a spell.
This would be why most campaigns terminate before they get into the upper echelons of levels: past a certain point the game becomes incredibly difficult for a GM to parse the possibilities of player actions when they could concievably have dozens of different spells which can interact with each other for new and incredibly derpy effects.
So again: I can not blame a GM for not foreseeing players engaging in creative use of their abilities and thereby upending a campaign that has gone past level 12.
If that was all they had, sure, but keep in mind that is an ability that can do literally whatever the DM wants it to do. Even limiting it to the example of 'Any clerical spell or any domain spell,' that can be a cost-free true resurrection.... at level 10. And the 7 days is only if the DM grants the intervention. If the DM does not, that timer doesn't even start yet.
AND it is just one clerical ability.
But let's go smaller scale. Do you agree that the ability to stab someone with a pointy stick is non-magical? Even when it can do more damage than a cantrip? This "The power of spells" phrase is not the absolute you seem to think it is.
Pretty certain that the personal comfort zone of any one player has no bearing on whether something is or is not a viable new rule for any given game they might play.
And "typically" only typically triggers rules.
There are also people who run higher level campaigns and there are people who play in them. There are people who feel that checkers is too simple for them and play chess instead. There are people who feel chess is too mechanical and play poker, instead and yet others who like the problem solving of escape rooms. D&D incorporates bits of all these (and a few other) types of games and the exact blend will vary between tables.
It is fair game to say "Psionics are not my thing." It is another to say "Psionics are not your thing."