This is why I insist that psionics has to conform to the mechanical systems of magic because if you don't have that then it creates a gaping hole in the mechanics of a ten years of material.
Also having double checked on divine intervention it would in point of fact be blocked by an antimagic field according to the strictest interpretation of the rules due to the fact that you are typically getting them to cast a spell.
This would be why most campaigns terminate before they get into the upper echelons of levels: past a certain point the game becomes incredibly difficult for a GM to parse the possibilities of player actions when they could concievably have dozens of different spells which can interact with each other for new and incredibly derpy effects.
So again: I can not blame a GM for not foreseeing players engaging in creative use of their abilities and thereby upending a campaign that has gone past level 12.
Pretty certain that the personal comfort zone of any one player has no bearing on whether something is or is not a viable new rule for any given game they might play.
And "typically" only typically triggers rules.
There are also people who run higher level campaigns and there are people who play in them. There are people who feel that checkers is too simple for them and play chess instead. There are people who feel chess is too mechanical and play poker, instead and yet others who like the problem solving of escape rooms. D&D incorporates bits of all these (and a few other) types of games and the exact blend will vary between tables.
I'm sure there are people who play higher level games.
I'm also certain that the consistent comment about adventures taking place over level 15 are comparatively rare and due to how the rules simply don't handle a party that is around that level very well.
And why does psionics have to conform to spell casting and magic rules rather than be closer to Ki or Invocations or Maneuvers?
1. Ki does create magical effects.
2. Maneuvers are reflections of martial prowess and don't require defiance of the laws of physics.
Divine Intervention is not automatically blocked by antimagic field. A cleric can obviously ask their diety to cast Fireball for them, but it generally makes more sense for clerics to ask their diety to help them defeat an enemy, and let the GM choos a reasonably powerful intervention to help accomplish that request. And if Antimagic Field is present, I think it would be a dick move if the GM casts a spell on purpose to get it cancelled, rather than trying to help the cleric out with a method that does not get denied by the field, like making the enemy trip and lose their concentration or something. Outright killing the enemy is also an option, but only the most dire of situations would warrant that, like a high level boss fight where Divine Intervention is the last resort and the cleric gets to enjoy the spot light and saves the day.
I'm sorry that the stictest interpretation of the rules does not agree with what you'd like them to be.
Now, If I was in this situation as a GM and a player succeeded at the miserable chance to get this work? I would consider what they were hoping the god would do, consider the domain/responsibilities of the god and put through an effect based on a spell but since gods are operating at a much higher level of being then mortals their acts would supercede such a zone unless it had been created by another divine effect (IE bones of a fallen god from the time of troubles in FR or a preceding act of God).
Regardless: it's still magic.
Ki can be used by some monks to create some magical effects. A fireball (magical) can light a non-magical fire, in addition to the fire damage it does directly. This does not mean that everything done with Ki is magical any more than it means that fireballs are somehow really non-magical.
Your strictest interpretation does not equal RAW simply by way of being your strictest interpretation. By your interpretation, an AMF causes real havok in the world since nature, itself may well exist or at least function due to the power of a Nature God or even an entire pantheon. Miserable chance, by the way? Base is 10%. Level or lower on percentile dice. 10% chance is pretty high, considering the power and the fact you can keep praying. Again, the 7 day timer only starts on a success.
Nowhere in the ability description does it say that it is magic.
I really can't follow all of this debate, but the focus on countering and dispelling for psionics is bizarre. It's as though you have this interesting idea for a concept (psionics) that has many possible interesting interpretations, but you choose to make the whole franchise hinge on knocking out one of the key pillars of balancing the game (cancellability). Why is this so central to that particular power fantasy?
Please cite the martial class that is limited to literally one weapon. They do not exist.
Weapons are all different aesthetically, but in the broad strokes they all do the same thing mechanically - you attack, hit, and roll a certain kind and quantity of dice for damage. Cantrips are far more varied - some do the above, some trigger saving throws, some improve your skills, some move or manipulate objects from afar, some create obstacles, some help you communicate etc. They're not at all comparable, and once you get into leveled spells the divergence only grows.
No one is saying that Psionics should be as powerful as DI, either. These are false equivalences. DI was brought up to show a high end power that is not subject to AMF, etc. If a high end power can be, why can't lower powers?
DI is allowed to break transparency while maintaining the broad power level of spellcasting because it's both balanced for that (i.e. it's more powerful than spellcasting, but with a heftier cost if it even works), and properly explained in the fiction, i.e. being a literal act of god(s). You have yet to propose either for psionics - just a vague "I guess we could adjust the resources and frequency somehow, probably?" - which incidentally is exactly what a sorcerer Subtly casting all their spells already does - and the fictional justification for psionics being opaque to magic is that they're not magic, which is circular reasoning.
You seem to be trying to insist that unless I (or any given proponent of anything) publish a full, ready to go proposal with all potential flaws worked out, that therefore the very idea itself should be rejected.
I certainly have no way of accepting something that even the people who want it seem incapable of properly describing. So if you're not willing to propose anything more detailed, I'm not sure what else you could possibly expect from me then - you'll just keep getting a "no, I don't think it's feasible." And if you'd rather not read any dissenting opinions, well, there are forum tools to help you.
I really can't follow all of this debate, but the focus on countering and dispelling for psionics is bizarre. It's as though you have this interesting idea for a concept (psionics) that has many possible interesting interpretations, but you choose to make the whole franchise hinge on knocking out one of the key pillars of balancing the game (cancellability). Why is this so central to that particular power fantasy?
I really don't know why they've chosen that hill to die on either.
(Also, don't forget detectability, resource transparency, feat transparency, item transparency, and species transparency.)
I really can't follow all of this debate, but the focus on countering and dispelling for psionics is bizarre. It's as though you have this interesting idea for a concept (psionics) that has many possible interesting interpretations, but you choose to make the whole franchise hinge on knocking out one of the key pillars of balancing the game (cancellability). Why is this so central to that particular power fantasy?
If I was to be a more bitter and cynical sort I'd think it was because the proponents of psionics want a treehouse magic system that is able to do end runs around the limitations that exist for wizards so that they can just be betterer.
More Likely, I think they don't understand that having (not)magic as a system just makes the game a more confusing and imbalanced mess.
I really can't follow all of this debate, but the focus on countering and dispelling for psionics is bizarre. It's as though you have this interesting idea for a concept (psionics) that has many possible interesting interpretations, but you choose to make the whole franchise hinge on knocking out one of the key pillars of balancing the game (cancellability). Why is this so central to that particular power fantasy?
To answer this, because it keeps getting thrown around erroneously:
As one of the strongest proponents of Not-Spellcasting Psychic Abilities in 5e, I don't give a rat if psychic powers are vulnerable to Counter, Dispel, Detect, whatever. No, it doesn't make any damn sense to me for magic to be able to counter psi (or for psi to be able to counter magic), but I also don't really need that to be the case. Never really have. I do find it aggravating that detractors of allowing psychic abilities in D&D claim that magic MUST be able to freely and effortlessly counter psychic abilities without any resource expenditure but psychic abilities cannot have any means whatsoever of interfering with magic, but even that doesn't really dealbreak for me so much as annoy me with its hypocrisy.
What I want is for psychic abilities to be different than spellcasting. People ask me why the Aberrant Mind isn't good enough to be a "psi" character. The answer is because it has no reason to be a psi character. It has no justification for being a psi character. It has no purpose in being a psi character. It's a spellcaster using the spellcasting rules to cast spells, and that means it will never, can never, be anything else and attempting to make it something else just means making it a dogshit terrible version of itself for no actual reason or justification.
It's why I tried to get people off the "flavor is free" bit pages ago. The Aberrant Mind's "flavor" doesn't matter, and where it does matter the subclass is ruined by its focus on grotesquery. Either one ignores the flavor - in which case the Aberrantr Mind sorcerer is no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer - or one hews to the flavor. In which case the Aberrant Mind is still no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer and is also gross and disgusting to boot.
What I want? A system that makes it plain psychic abilities are distinct from magic. if Magic people want to be able to counter Psi for free and claim ultradominance over psychic characters because the idea of mental abilities offends them, whatever. Don't really care, outside annoyance at the hypocrisy. Give me some Psi Die-powered classes, or make the Psionic Energy pool actually a fully fleshed out and viable mechanic. To Gehenna with spell slots and spellcasting and spellthis and spellthat and spelltheotherthing.
I would like to be able to play a psychic character that plays and feels like a psychic character, not like a Special Needs spellcaster in bad low-budget cosplay.
I do find it aggravating that detractors of allowing psychic abilities in D&D claim that magic MUST be able to freely and effortlessly counter psychic abilities without any resource expenditure but psychic abilities cannot have any means whatsoever of interfering with magic, but even that doesn't really dealbreak for me so much as annoy me with its hypocrisy.
As far as I know no one has proposed this Yurei.
What I've argued is that Psionics is literally just a another kind of magic and thus subject to the same limitations and effects.
I do find it aggravating that detractors of allowing psychic abilities in D&D claim that magic MUST be able to freely and effortlessly counter psychic abilities without any resource expenditure but psychic abilities cannot have any means whatsoever of interfering with magic, but even that doesn't really dealbreak for me so much as annoy me with its hypocrisy.
It's why I tried to get people off the "flavor is free" bit pages ago. The Aberrant Mind's "flavor" doesn't matter, and where it does matter the subclass is ruined by its focus on grotesquery. Either one ignores the flavor - in which case the Aberrantr Mind sorcerer is no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer - or one hews to the flavor. In which case the Aberrant Mind is still no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer and is also gross and disgusting to boot.
Clerics and Artificers can't ignore verbal and somatic components last time I checked. All Sorcerers, and especially Aberrant Minds, can. This is why it's hard for me to believe the psi proponents are arguing in good faith.
I really can't follow all of this debate, but the focus on countering and dispelling for psionics is bizarre. It's as though you have this interesting idea for a concept (psionics) that has many possible interesting interpretations, but you choose to make the whole franchise hinge on knocking out one of the key pillars of balancing the game (cancellability). Why is this so central to that particular power fantasy?
Why the assumption that there would be no means of cancelling ? It is like the fact that you can't douse normal fire in quite a few different ways, including using spells that specifically douse normal fires. But you can.
It is the naysayers that are insisting that unless it counts as magic and therefore can be blocked using the normal anti-magic options, it breaks the game.
Clerics and Artificers can't ignore verbal and somatic components last time I checked. All Sorcerers, and especially Aberrant Minds, can. This is why it's hard for me to believe the psi proponents are arguing in good faith.
I mean, my biggest concern with what she's proposing is a system that's fully divorced from the entire extent magic system because she doesn't like spell slots or the way D&D has worked for like, nearly 5 decades.
This combined with other statements and infferals they have made suggests to me that they're honestly better off finding another system to play around with but for whatever reason they're refusing to move on.
I really can't follow all of this debate, but the focus on countering and dispelling for psionics is bizarre. It's as though you have this interesting idea for a concept (psionics) that has many possible interesting interpretations, but you choose to make the whole franchise hinge on knocking out one of the key pillars of balancing the game (cancellability). Why is this so central to that particular power fantasy?
Why the assumption that there would be no means of cancelling ? It is like the fact that you can't douse normal fire in quite a few different ways, including using spells that specifically douse normal fires. But you can.
It is the naysayers that are insisting that unless it counts as magic and therefore can be blocked using the normal anti-magic options, it breaks the game.
No. My argument has been that creating a whole new power set that exists outside of the conventional confines of the established mechanics of the game is bad for the game and can only lead to disaster.
I do find it aggravating that detractors of allowing psychic abilities in D&D claim that magic MUST be able to freely and effortlessly counter psychic abilities without any resource expenditure but psychic abilities cannot have any means whatsoever of interfering with magic, but even that doesn't really dealbreak for me so much as annoy me with its hypocrisy.
It's why I tried to get people off the "flavor is free" bit pages ago. The Aberrant Mind's "flavor" doesn't matter, and where it does matter the subclass is ruined by its focus on grotesquery. Either one ignores the flavor - in which case the Aberrantr Mind sorcerer is no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer - or one hews to the flavor. In which case the Aberrant Mind is still no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer and is also gross and disgusting to boot.
Clerics and Artificers can't ignore verbal and somatic components last time I checked. All Sorcerers, and especially Aberrant Minds, can. This is why it's hard for me to believe the psi proponents are arguing in good faith.
You are the one going on about "Unless it is magic and thus counterable with anti-magic' while equating that with a complete lack of counters.
Sorcerers, incl. Aberrant Mind Sorcerers can only ignore verbal and somatic components while sorc points hold out. They otherwise cast in the same manner as clerics or artificers... "Hey, look, some of the time they can do some of what you want your class to be able to do. That's good enough, right?" does not go very far.
Sorcerers, incl. Aberrant Mind Sorcerers can only ignore verbal and somatic components while sorc points hold out.
Which is as long as they have spell slots to turn into sorcery points. "If you want to cast everything subtly you can't cast as many spells per day" is what we call "balance" (and as long as the aberrant mind is only casting psionic sorcery spells, he isn't even casting fewer spells per day -- you can convert a level X spell slot into X sorcery points and then use it to cast a level X spell).
So now the new goal post is it not only does it have to be Magic because of Beholders, but it also must use spell slots because of spell components. Am I getting this right?
It's also worth noting that we have examples of creatures throughout 5e that would be considered "psionic" like Gith, Mindflayers, Gem Dragons, Flumph and Aboleths and consistently their spellcasting is in spellcasting format as opposed to some new and confusing system.
Also (spoilers for mad mage)
Within undermountain there was a student of Halaster's who was obsessed with disproving the existance of magic and instead the existance of science which caused him to become a Lightning skull. Which is a Flameskull but with lightning. It also had a full gammit of powers that were described in game as magic despite how it came to be this way through pure scientific experimentation.
My point is that as soon as people can accept Psionics as a kind of magic as opposed to being a complete Iconoclasm to the very concept thereof we can get on with our lives.
Because ignoring components isn't "the core of psychic abilities". It's just spellcasting badly. Spellcasting, but ignoring the rules of spellcasting. Folks have fixated on the idea that what fans and proponents of psychic abilities want is just subtle spellcasting. No. That's still just spellcasting, and it still means classes like the Aberrant Mind have no reason, justification, or purpose for being a "psychic" character instead of yet another boring ho-hum every-village-has-twelve-of-them spellcaster.
Hell, if I were writing a system of psychic abilities for 5e, I'd consider giving psychic abilities Signs rather than "components". The psychic character doesn't need thirty pounds of penguin spleens, they don't need to bellow Magic Words loud enough people can hear them in the Underdark, and they don't need to do the Jazz Hands...but utilizing their power creates supernatural signs. Psychokinetic abilities might induce visible warping and shifting in the air around objects/targets being manipulated. Direct psychic damage and mental attacks might evoke ethereal chimes or ringing, or cause the attacker's veins to bulge or their eyes to shine with otherworldly light. Charm and coercive abilities honestly feel like they would carry a scent to me - something the uninitiated would just think is weird, but which is unmistakable to anyone who knows what to sniff for.
That could be a fun differentiator - rather than needing to produce nonsensical fake law-of-sympathy objects to power their abilities, psychic characters use their abilities and that usage induces supernatural signs in their vicinity. Difference seems largely semantic, but I'd argue not at all - there's a lot of interesting ground you could cover with the idea that psychic abilities cause supernatural signs. Stronger abilities manifest more severe signs, and the most potent psychic powers might start warping reality in more permanent and/or unfortunate ways. A bit like Wild Magic, but without the endless myriad dumb**** things that make Wild Magic utterly awful to deal with as both a player and a DM.
The important matter, however, is that psychic abilities are distinct and different from Magic, in a way that gives them a valid space, reason, and justification to exist. That gives a player a reason to want to play a psychic character, instead of the system and DM both punishing that player for their hubris in wanting to be something other than another boring basic spellcaster.
So now the new goal post is it not only does it have to be Magic because of Beholders, but it also must use spell slots because of spell components. Am I getting this right?
Wait. I am confused. Why can't WotC build on the dice system they created?
Listen, if you want to build something that is separate from spell slots Go for it. I think it would still need to be carefully balanced so that it doesn't wind up either way too strong or way too weak but I am not wholly opposed to the attempt at doing so.
But at the end of the day It needs to have magic as it's underlying principle in order for it to mesh with the extent mechanics of the game due to the tendency to balance encounters more and more at higher levels by making spell resistance (or straight up antimagic) a thing to curb the power of wizards. If say... a psychokinetic can just toss around disintegrates or other abilties that bypass this then it causes more problems in game design. Beyond that, there is no actual counterplay to psionics as a system (for reasons that I shouldn't have to state at this juncture) for either PCs or NPCs.
Realistically, for this to truly work you would need to build the entire game from the ground up with the existence of psionics as a consideration along side Magic , Martial and Skill focused character types which would require an entirely new edition which we aren't getting for at least several more years unless One goes over like Asbestos ski masks.
The important matter, however, is that psychic abilities are distinct and different from Magic, in a way that gives them a valid space, reason, and justification to exist.
The reality is, regardless of mechanics, you can't do this because spellcasters already stomped all over your niche before psychics even existed in the game. Settings that separate magic and psi do it by not letting magic do the things psi is supposed to be good at, and that ship sailed sometime back in the mid-1970s.
The important matter, however, is that psychic abilities are distinct and different from Magic, in a way that gives them a valid space, reason, and justification to exist.
The reality is, regardless of mechanics, you can't do this because spellcasters already stomped all over your niche before psychics even existed in the game.
I mean, this is kind of a crude way of saying it but Pantagruel666 isn't wrong; By the time the first attempts at psionics were made the spell schools were already a thing and several of them (illusion, enchantment and divination) were doing traditional "psychic" things while telekinesis was an upper tier spell leaving kinetics pretty much out in the cold.
It's also why again: The only way to really solve this problem is to have psionics be a part of the game while it is being developed as opposed to years and years later when it's going to fit in like an NFL linebacker at a Loli convention.
Sorcerers, incl. Aberrant Mind Sorcerers can only ignore verbal and somatic components while sorc points hold out. They otherwise cast in the same manner as clerics or artificers... "Hey, look, some of the time they can do some of what you want your class to be able to do. That's good enough, right?" does not go very far.
You know they can get more points right? By trading in spell slots? And therefore the advantage of having completely undetectable and uncounterable magic is offset by the disadvantage of having fewer uses per long rest? That's a thing called "game balance."
You are the one going on about "Unless it is magic and thus counterable with anti-magic' while equating that with a complete lack of counters.
So tell me what counters you had in mind then; I'll wait. I'll even link Vecna the Archlich again. What could he do to interfere/interact with your psion's abilities?
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Ki can be used by some monks to create some magical effects. A fireball (magical) can light a non-magical fire, in addition to the fire damage it does directly. This does not mean that everything done with Ki is magical any more than it means that fireballs are somehow really non-magical.
Your strictest interpretation does not equal RAW simply by way of being your strictest interpretation. By your interpretation, an AMF causes real havok in the world since nature, itself may well exist or at least function due to the power of a Nature God or even an entire pantheon. Miserable chance, by the way? Base is 10%. Level or lower on percentile dice. 10% chance is pretty high, considering the power and the fact you can keep praying. Again, the 7 day timer only starts on a success.
Nowhere in the ability description does it say that it is magic.
I really can't follow all of this debate, but the focus on countering and dispelling for psionics is bizarre. It's as though you have this interesting idea for a concept (psionics) that has many possible interesting interpretations, but you choose to make the whole franchise hinge on knocking out one of the key pillars of balancing the game (cancellability). Why is this so central to that particular power fantasy?
Weapons are all different aesthetically, but in the broad strokes they all do the same thing mechanically - you attack, hit, and roll a certain kind and quantity of dice for damage. Cantrips are far more varied - some do the above, some trigger saving throws, some improve your skills, some move or manipulate objects from afar, some create obstacles, some help you communicate etc. They're not at all comparable, and once you get into leveled spells the divergence only grows.
DI is allowed to break transparency while maintaining the broad power level of spellcasting because it's both balanced for that (i.e. it's more powerful than spellcasting, but with a heftier cost if it even works), and properly explained in the fiction, i.e. being a literal act of god(s). You have yet to propose either for psionics - just a vague "I guess we could adjust the resources and frequency somehow, probably?" - which incidentally is exactly what a sorcerer Subtly casting all their spells already does - and the fictional justification for psionics being opaque to magic is that they're not magic, which is circular reasoning.
I certainly have no way of accepting something that even the people who want it seem incapable of properly describing. So if you're not willing to propose anything more detailed, I'm not sure what else you could possibly expect from me then - you'll just keep getting a "no, I don't think it's feasible." And if you'd rather not read any dissenting opinions, well, there are forum tools to help you.
I really don't know why they've chosen that hill to die on either.
(Also, don't forget detectability, resource transparency, feat transparency, item transparency, and species transparency.)
If I was to be a more bitter and cynical sort I'd think it was because the proponents of psionics want a treehouse magic system that is able to do end runs around the limitations that exist for wizards so that they can just be betterer.
More Likely, I think they don't understand that having (not)magic as a system just makes the game a more confusing and imbalanced mess.
To answer this, because it keeps getting thrown around erroneously:
As one of the strongest proponents of Not-Spellcasting Psychic Abilities in 5e, I don't give a rat if psychic powers are vulnerable to Counter, Dispel, Detect, whatever. No, it doesn't make any damn sense to me for magic to be able to counter psi (or for psi to be able to counter magic), but I also don't really need that to be the case. Never really have. I do find it aggravating that detractors of allowing psychic abilities in D&D claim that magic MUST be able to freely and effortlessly counter psychic abilities without any resource expenditure but psychic abilities cannot have any means whatsoever of interfering with magic, but even that doesn't really dealbreak for me so much as annoy me with its hypocrisy.
What I want is for psychic abilities to be different than spellcasting. People ask me why the Aberrant Mind isn't good enough to be a "psi" character. The answer is because it has no reason to be a psi character. It has no justification for being a psi character. It has no purpose in being a psi character. It's a spellcaster using the spellcasting rules to cast spells, and that means it will never, can never, be anything else and attempting to make it something else just means making it a dogshit terrible version of itself for no actual reason or justification.
It's why I tried to get people off the "flavor is free" bit pages ago. The Aberrant Mind's "flavor" doesn't matter, and where it does matter the subclass is ruined by its focus on grotesquery. Either one ignores the flavor - in which case the Aberrantr Mind sorcerer is no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer - or one hews to the flavor. In which case the Aberrant Mind is still no more "psychic" than a cleric or artificer and is also gross and disgusting to boot.
What I want? A system that makes it plain psychic abilities are distinct from magic. if Magic people want to be able to counter Psi for free and claim ultradominance over psychic characters because the idea of mental abilities offends them, whatever. Don't really care, outside annoyance at the hypocrisy. Give me some Psi Die-powered classes, or make the Psionic Energy pool actually a fully fleshed out and viable mechanic. To Gehenna with spell slots and spellcasting and spellthis and spellthat and spelltheotherthing.
I would like to be able to play a psychic character that plays and feels like a psychic character, not like a Special Needs spellcaster in bad low-budget cosplay.
Please do not contact or message me.
As far as I know no one has proposed this Yurei.
What I've argued is that Psionics is literally just a another kind of magic and thus subject to the same limitations and effects.
Who the heck said this and where???
Clerics and Artificers can't ignore verbal and somatic components last time I checked. All Sorcerers, and especially Aberrant Minds, can. This is why it's hard for me to believe the psi proponents are arguing in good faith.
Why the assumption that there would be no means of cancelling ? It is like the fact that you can't douse normal fire in quite a few different ways, including using spells that specifically douse normal fires. But you can.
It is the naysayers that are insisting that unless it counts as magic and therefore can be blocked using the normal anti-magic options, it breaks the game.
I mean, my biggest concern with what she's proposing is a system that's fully divorced from the entire extent magic system because she doesn't like spell slots or the way D&D has worked for like, nearly 5 decades.
This combined with other statements and infferals they have made suggests to me that they're honestly better off finding another system to play around with but for whatever reason they're refusing to move on.
No. My argument has been that creating a whole new power set that exists outside of the conventional confines of the established mechanics of the game is bad for the game and can only lead to disaster.
You are the one going on about "Unless it is magic and thus counterable with anti-magic' while equating that with a complete lack of counters.
Sorcerers, incl. Aberrant Mind Sorcerers can only ignore verbal and somatic components while sorc points hold out. They otherwise cast in the same manner as clerics or artificers... "Hey, look, some of the time they can do some of what you want your class to be able to do. That's good enough, right?" does not go very far.
Which is as long as they have spell slots to turn into sorcery points. "If you want to cast everything subtly you can't cast as many spells per day" is what we call "balance" (and as long as the aberrant mind is only casting psionic sorcery spells, he isn't even casting fewer spells per day -- you can convert a level X spell slot into X sorcery points and then use it to cast a level X spell).
So now the new goal post is it not only does it have to be Magic because of Beholders, but it also must use spell slots because of spell components. Am I getting this right?
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
It's also worth noting that we have examples of creatures throughout 5e that would be considered "psionic" like Gith, Mindflayers, Gem Dragons, Flumph and Aboleths and consistently their spellcasting is in spellcasting format as opposed to some new and confusing system.
Also (spoilers for mad mage)
Within undermountain there was a student of Halaster's who was obsessed with disproving the existance of magic and instead the existance of science which caused him to become a Lightning skull. Which is a Flameskull but with lightning. It also had a full gammit of powers that were described in game as magic despite how it came to be this way through pure scientific experimentation.
My point is that as soon as people can accept Psionics as a kind of magic as opposed to being a complete Iconoclasm to the very concept thereof we can get on with our lives.
Because ignoring components isn't "the core of psychic abilities". It's just spellcasting badly. Spellcasting, but ignoring the rules of spellcasting. Folks have fixated on the idea that what fans and proponents of psychic abilities want is just subtle spellcasting. No. That's still just spellcasting, and it still means classes like the Aberrant Mind have no reason, justification, or purpose for being a "psychic" character instead of yet another boring ho-hum every-village-has-twelve-of-them spellcaster.
Hell, if I were writing a system of psychic abilities for 5e, I'd consider giving psychic abilities Signs rather than "components". The psychic character doesn't need thirty pounds of penguin spleens, they don't need to bellow Magic Words loud enough people can hear them in the Underdark, and they don't need to do the Jazz Hands...but utilizing their power creates supernatural signs. Psychokinetic abilities might induce visible warping and shifting in the air around objects/targets being manipulated. Direct psychic damage and mental attacks might evoke ethereal chimes or ringing, or cause the attacker's veins to bulge or their eyes to shine with otherworldly light. Charm and coercive abilities honestly feel like they would carry a scent to me - something the uninitiated would just think is weird, but which is unmistakable to anyone who knows what to sniff for.
That could be a fun differentiator - rather than needing to produce nonsensical fake law-of-sympathy objects to power their abilities, psychic characters use their abilities and that usage induces supernatural signs in their vicinity. Difference seems largely semantic, but I'd argue not at all - there's a lot of interesting ground you could cover with the idea that psychic abilities cause supernatural signs. Stronger abilities manifest more severe signs, and the most potent psychic powers might start warping reality in more permanent and/or unfortunate ways. A bit like Wild Magic, but without the endless myriad dumb**** things that make Wild Magic utterly awful to deal with as both a player and a DM.
The important matter, however, is that psychic abilities are distinct and different from Magic, in a way that gives them a valid space, reason, and justification to exist. That gives a player a reason to want to play a psychic character, instead of the system and DM both punishing that player for their hubris in wanting to be something other than another boring basic spellcaster.
Please do not contact or message me.
Listen, if you want to build something that is separate from spell slots Go for it. I think it would still need to be carefully balanced so that it doesn't wind up either way too strong or way too weak but I am not wholly opposed to the attempt at doing so.
But at the end of the day It needs to have magic as it's underlying principle in order for it to mesh with the extent mechanics of the game due to the tendency to balance encounters more and more at higher levels by making spell resistance (or straight up antimagic) a thing to curb the power of wizards. If say... a psychokinetic can just toss around disintegrates or other abilties that bypass this then it causes more problems in game design. Beyond that, there is no actual counterplay to psionics as a system (for reasons that I shouldn't have to state at this juncture) for either PCs or NPCs.
Realistically, for this to truly work you would need to build the entire game from the ground up with the existence of psionics as a consideration along side Magic , Martial and Skill focused character types which would require an entirely new edition which we aren't getting for at least several more years unless One goes over like Asbestos ski masks.
The reality is, regardless of mechanics, you can't do this because spellcasters already stomped all over your niche before psychics even existed in the game. Settings that separate magic and psi do it by not letting magic do the things psi is supposed to be good at, and that ship sailed sometime back in the mid-1970s.
I mean, this is kind of a crude way of saying it but Pantagruel666 isn't wrong; By the time the first attempts at psionics were made the spell schools were already a thing and several of them (illusion, enchantment and divination) were doing traditional "psychic" things while telekinesis was an upper tier spell leaving kinetics pretty much out in the cold.
It's also why again: The only way to really solve this problem is to have psionics be a part of the game while it is being developed as opposed to years and years later when it's going to fit in like an NFL linebacker at a Loli convention.
You know they can get more points right? By trading in spell slots? And therefore the advantage of having completely undetectable and uncounterable magic is offset by the disadvantage of having fewer uses per long rest? That's a thing called "game balance."
So tell me what counters you had in mind then; I'll wait. I'll even link Vecna the Archlich again. What could he do to interfere/interact with your psion's abilities?