Since it's not hard, I'll explain why the TK power isn't some rules nightmare that cannot be done in the framework of D&D:
It's object interaction and stat checks. Just at a distance.
That's... probably not what Yurei asked for, though it's somewhat hard to tell because the actual request was almost completely devoid of detail. It sounded to me like a request for a power stunting system.
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
Telekinetic Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. You try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition. The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
You can move or carry the grappled creature up to 15 feet but should they be moved beyond your range, the grapple is broken.
A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Intelligence (Athletics) check.
Additionally, grappling in this manner also requires the Psion to maintain concentrations as though concentrating on a spell.
Telekinetic Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. Instead of making an attack roll, you make an Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Telekinetic Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Intelligence score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Telekinetic Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Intelligence score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
I have no idea what is going on with the formatting
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
Telekinetic Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. You try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition. The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
You can move or carry the grappled creature up to 15 feet but should they be moved beyond your range, the grapple is broken.
A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Intelligence (Athletics) check.
Additionally, grappling in this manner also requires the Psion to maintain concentrations as though concentrating on a spell.
Telekinetic Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. Instead of making an attack roll, you make an Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Telekinetic Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Intelligence score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Telekinetic Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Intelligence score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
I have no idea what is going on with the formatting
My response would be that this is a hard no.
You are effectively getting all the advantages of strength with none of the draw backs at level two and you can do this at range at no cost outside of concentration.
Maybe if you included a resource expenditure (IE the psi points you had proposed earlier) in order to maintain this for a short time this would be more in line but as it is this is just ridiculous.
I dispute your claim with an example and you just try to change the subject. Yes, they're magical. They're still not spellcasting, and they're not balanced down.
I wasn't changing the subject and they're absolutely balanced down. Spells don't require your limited attunement slots last time I checked, and even though they get extra ones as they level, their casting is truncated as a result. If anything, Artificers are on the weak end of the spectrum overall compared to full casters. If that's all you want psions to be, great, you're off to a good start, carry on with your proposal.
This is easy to answer, since I wrote it yesterday.
First: what is the class fantasy?
Next, make some decisions about the big questions, such as:
What does their resource cycle look like?
What should their power acquisition be like?
What should be base class and what should be subclass?
Are the subclasses power-based or activity-based?
Then develop, test, iterate, test, possibly back off and try something else, etc. Your supposedly critical questions will probably be decided by chrome decisions, and the mechanics may be adjusted slightly to balance them out, or to achieve similar goals in different ways.
Were you going to attempt to answer any of these?
The irony is that Wren, Ashla, Pantagruel and I actually have been. The class fantasy is that they cast without needing VSM components; I could go a step further and say they give up access to certain schools of magic (e.g. no summoning and very little buffing others) in exchange for the ability to heal and enhance themselves. We showed how Sorcerer achieves that fantasy in a balanced way, by devoting their daily resources to Subtle Spell, and that something like that should be the basis of a balanced psychic caster. That also answers the base class, subclass, and power acquisition questions. We're the ones forced to answer these because you all haven't been, all you want to do is complain about 5e instead.
The relevance of unicorns in this discussion is that they are magic resistant. That is only relevant if they are enemies of the party.
Well duh, they're monsters. In the Monster Manual. Of course they can be enemies of the party, just like literally everything else in that book can be. And again, the point is that Unicorns aren't obscure, they're in fact quite well-known both in and outside of a gaming context.
Since you acknowledge one (as a DM) can homebrew anything one might wish then presumably no one has to go play something else. "Play something better suited to your goals" could well be 5e as it currently stands, plus a Psion class, even if said class does not fit with your personal sense of aesthetics.
Sure, go nuts, whichever you prefer. As long as my printed books are spared from your bad ideas.
"Can be" does not equal "likely to be" and certainly does not equal "We cannot possibly do this because this because a Unicorn might be harmed."
And simply do not buy any books you do not like and you will be spared your printed books including books you do not like.
Since it's not hard, I'll explain why the TK power isn't some rules nightmare that cannot be done in the framework of D&D:
It's object interaction and stat checks. Just at a distance.
That's... probably not what Yurei asked for, though it's somewhat hard to tell because the actual request was almost completely devoid of detail. It sounded to me like a request for a power stunting system.
This is what I was trying to do when I pointed out pure melee or melee or burning enemies with a torch vs using cantrips or other low end spells to do the same damage types and similar low levels of damage. You are overly dramatizing the importance of anything you think sounds like a spell to you being 'magical.'
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
Telekinetic Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. You try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition. The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
You can move or carry the grappled creature up to 15 feet but should they be moved beyond your range, the grapple is broken.
A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Intelligence (Athletics) check.
Additionally, grappling in this manner also requires the Psion to maintain concentrations as though concentrating on a spell.
Telekinetic Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. Instead of making an attack roll, you make an Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Telekinetic Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Intelligence score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Telekinetic Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Intelligence score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
I have no idea what is going on with the formatting
My response would be that this is a hard no.
You are effectively getting all the advantages of strength with none of the draw backs at level two and you can do this at range at no cost outside of concentration.
Maybe if you included a resource expenditure (IE the psi points you had proposed earlier) in order to maintain this for a short time this would be more in line but as it is this is just ridiculous.
Re-read the bolded. There is not even anything in there about wielding weapons, so you are not getting "All of the advantages of strength." Even if you were able to use int and TK in place of Str while meleeing using a TK'd weapon (regular or improvised), how is doing so at range that much better than melee other than "but at range!" It being a ranged attack, it would arguably be subject to the disadvantage at melee range rule.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Although, for a telekinetic, the Way of the Astral Self Monk is already most of the way there. The Ki abilities are not even described as magical (although IIRC you believe all Ki use to be magical, that is not actually RAW). For a telekinetic, I would build a caster modelled version (more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial). The Astral Self Monk is only part of the way there, since its "astral arms" only gain an extra 5' reach.
It has some issues with completely devaluing strength, not that strength isn't already low value, and ranged grapple is frequently problematic (as it lacks the normal balancing factor of melee grapple that the grappled target can whomp on the grappler), but it's not per se unreasonable.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Because I already responded to this several pages ago when she gave the rough notes for a psion and it came across as both unfocused and overtuned wherein I suggested that she tone it down by changing the system to be say... advantage on strength checks. She responded by coming back with something that was greatly expanded in terms of functionality.
As to comparing this to the Astral self monk: that requires that the monk be level 3, choose a sub-class, has limited range (ten feet verus upwards of 60) and expend Ki to do something that is a defining feature of their spec on top of all the taxing things monks do.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Because I already responded to this several pages ago when she gave the rough notes for a psion and it came across as both unfocused and overtuned wherein I suggested that she tone it down by changing the system to be say... advantage on strength checks. She responded by coming back with something that was greatly expanded in terms of functionality.
As to comparing this to the Astral self monk: that requires that the monk be level 3, choose a sub-class, has limited range (ten feet versus upwards of 60) and expend Ki to do something that is a defining feature of their spec on top of all the taxing things monks do.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis? Pardon? Are you certain you understand the concept, what telekinesis actually is? Not to mention advantage on grapples is almost certainly more powerful than being able to substitute int for str on grapples.
I said "more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial" so no, not 'on top of all the things Monks do.' This would be a hypothetical Psion subclass, so yes, likely not at 1st level, but how do you see such a class being competitive pre-subclass? And don't say, 'I don't.' At least try to be constructive, please.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right? I even linked the subclass so people could more easily read it before commenting.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis?
For a tactile version of it? Yeah sounds good to me.
At least try to be constructive, please.
I was. And then Lia ignored my advice and greatly expanded the scope of an ability that is pretty much always on and stacked range on top of it so now I'm being more direct.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right?
Yes, because I bought my copy of Tasha's years ago.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis?
For a tactile version of it? Yeah sounds good to me.
At least try to be constructive, please.
I was. And then Lia ignored my advice and greatly expanded the scope of an ability that is pretty much always on and stacked range on top of it so now I'm being more direct.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right?
Yes, because I bought my copy of Tasha's years ago.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why? The Tele in Telekinesis is 'distance.' Right now, this hypothetical class can grapple at range and shove and can use int instead of str in doing so (or in lifting and carrying). Yes they could theoretically do these things at 60'.... at 17th level. They start out with a much more modest 20' range. There would likely be a size limit on the grapple and shove, too.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
If anything, they are currently very UP.
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why?
So putting aside the irony of you saying this, tactile psionics isn't a new concept and it has in point of fact been depicted with multiple characters and storylines throughout the years; effetively the character creates a telekinetic field around themselves (often unconsciously) and this serves to both protect themselves from incoming attack and also act as a sort of powered exoskeleton while maintaining the relative dexterity of free movement.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
Perhaps if every fight occured on a flat, featureless plane you might have a point but as soon as you include topography into this things get way more complicated; grabbing the wizard and holding himin the fireplace or flicking guards off of a wall all can be devestating and all of this is done esentially for free by a character that may (or may not) have any outward displays of them doing these things given that many Psi enthusiasts have expressed a desire for the characters to not have any components used in casting.
Also for reference, for a wizard to perform a similar feat they would need to be a minimum of 9th level so that they could cast telekinesis which admittedly is considerably stronger but it also comes with considerable limitations (IE requiring casting).
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
I know it isn't a finished product. That's why I gave suggestions on how Lia_black suggestions for streamlining the Psion and bringing it more in line with other classes a week ago.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why?
So putting aside the irony of you saying this, tactile psionics isn't a new concept and it has in point of fact been depicted with multiple characters and storylines throughout the years; effetively the character creates a telekinetic field around themselves (often unconsciously) and this serves to both protect themselves from incoming attack and also act as a sort of powered exoskeleton while maintaining the relative dexterity of free movement.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
Perhaps if every fight occured on a flat, featureless plane you might have a point but as soon as you include topography into this things get way more complicated; grabbing the wizard and holding himin the fireplace or flicking guards off of a wall all can be devestating and all of this is done esentially for free by a character that may (or may not) have any outward displays of them doing these things given that many Psi enthusiasts have expressed a desire for the characters to not have any components used in casting.
Also for reference, for a wizard to perform a similar feat they would need to be a minimum of 9th level so that they could cast telekinesis which admittedly is considerably stronger but it also comes with considerable limitations (IE requiring casting).
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
I know it isn't a finished product. That's why I gave suggestions on how Lia_black suggestions for streamlining the Psion and bringing it more in line with other classes a week ago.
No, it isn't a new concept. A martial artist with a utility belt full of gadgets is also not a new concept. There are plenty of concepts out there, but we were discussing a classical telekinetic.
If you want to make a suggestion for a tactile telekinetic, make a separate suggestion but do not insist all other suggestions be on that theme. Not sure what you consider irony in there...
The wizard would have a LOT more than just that telekinesis spell though. And the Telekinesis spell as described is capable of fine work, which the TK Psion version does not mention.
"Streamlining?" too? It is unfinished, so your response is there is too much there???
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
Telekinetic Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. You try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition. The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
You can move or carry the grappled creature up to 15 feet but should they be moved beyond your range, the grapple is broken.
A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Intelligence (Athletics) check.
Additionally, grappling in this manner also requires the Psion to maintain concentrations as though concentrating on a spell.
Telekinetic Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. Instead of making an attack roll, you make an Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Telekinetic Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Intelligence score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Telekinetic Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Intelligence score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
I have no idea what is going on with the formatting
my thoughts are that it’s replicating a chunk of Bigby’s Hand, a level 5 spell but at character level 2
my thoughts are that it’s replicating a chunk of Bigby’s Hand, a level 5 spell but at character level 2
it would need to be scaled
Thanks for the feedback. I can see what you are talking about, but it is significantly weaker than Bigby's Hand as it has a lower strength, much shorter range, can't cause damage, can't push more than 5 feet and it doesn't provide cover. I will mark it in the "add a resource cost" column.
It has some issues with completely devaluing strength, not that strength isn't already low value, and ranged grapple is frequently problematic (as it lacks the normal balancing factor of melee grapple that the grappled target can whomp on the grappler), but it's not per se unreasonable.
Sorry, I missed this one. I think you are saying it is pushing the limit, but isn't really broken either?
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
Earlier, one of the suggestions that I had given for this was to take a step back, and consider what a "base class" psion would look like and then how to diverge that into more specific paths; 4e did something like this in PHB3 by presenting two build paths for the psion as either telekinetic or telepathic and having distinct powers for each of those.(kinetic tended more towards AoE whereas telepathic was more debuff as I recall).
By having something like this tied to a higher tier of a specialized telekinetic (along with a modest fee of a psi point; I believe you proposed it to be double the profficiency bonus for total number of points, though I feel that having it comparable to monks chi gains (IE 1 per level) would offer more potential use) you'd have a much more balanced approach to this.
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
Earlier, one of the suggestions that I had given for this was to take a step back, and consider what a "base class" psion would look like and then how to diverge that into more specific paths; 4e did something like this in PHB3 by presenting two build paths for the psion as either telekinetic or telepathic and having distinct powers for each of those.(kinetic tended more towards AoE whereas telepathic was more debuff as I recall).
By having something like this tied to a higher tier of a specialized telekinetic (along with a modest fee of a psi point; I believe you proposed it to be double the profficiency bonus for total number of points, though I feel that having it comparable to monks chi gains (IE 1 per level) would offer more potential use) you'd have a much more balanced approach to this.
I only have couple of minutes before I have to run out the door, but wanted say thanks for the feedback. I will look at it a bit more in depth after work. To be honest, I have not really put that much thought, time, or effort into this concept and I am not fully dedicated to working on it as anything more than a side project right now so don't expect much lol.
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That's... probably not what Yurei asked for, though it's somewhat hard to tell because the actual request was almost completely devoid of detail. It sounded to me like a request for a power stunting system.
What are you thoughts on this?
Mind Over Matter (2nd Level Psion Feature)
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
You can move or carry the grappled creature up to 15 feet but should they be moved beyond your range, the grapple is broken.
A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Intelligence (Athletics) check.
Additionally, grappling in this manner also requires the Psion to maintain concentrations as though concentrating on a spell.
I have no idea what is going on with the formatting
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
My response would be that this is a hard no.
You are effectively getting all the advantages of strength with none of the draw backs at level two and you can do this at range at no cost outside of concentration.
Maybe if you included a resource expenditure (IE the psi points you had proposed earlier) in order to maintain this for a short time this would be more in line but as it is this is just ridiculous.
I wasn't changing the subject and they're absolutely balanced down. Spells don't require your limited attunement slots last time I checked, and even though they get extra ones as they level, their casting is truncated as a result. If anything, Artificers are on the weak end of the spectrum overall compared to full casters. If that's all you want psions to be, great, you're off to a good start, carry on with your proposal.
Were you going to attempt to answer any of these?
The irony is that Wren, Ashla, Pantagruel and I actually have been. The class fantasy is that they cast without needing VSM components; I could go a step further and say they give up access to certain schools of magic (e.g. no summoning and very little buffing others) in exchange for the ability to heal and enhance themselves. We showed how Sorcerer achieves that fantasy in a balanced way, by devoting their daily resources to Subtle Spell, and that something like that should be the basis of a balanced psychic caster. That also answers the base class, subclass, and power acquisition questions. We're the ones forced to answer these because you all haven't been, all you want to do is complain about 5e instead.
"Can be" does not equal "likely to be" and certainly does not equal "We cannot possibly do this because this because a Unicorn might be harmed."
And simply do not buy any books you do not like and you will be spared your printed books including books you do not like.
This is what I was trying to do when I pointed out pure melee or melee or burning enemies with a torch vs using cantrips or other low end spells to do the same damage types and similar low levels of damage. You are overly dramatizing the importance of anything you think sounds like a spell to you being 'magical.'
Re-read the bolded. There is not even anything in there about wielding weapons, so you are not getting "All of the advantages of strength." Even if you were able to use int and TK in place of Str while meleeing using a TK'd weapon (regular or improvised), how is doing so at range that much better than melee other than "but at range!" It being a ranged attack, it would arguably be subject to the disadvantage at melee range rule.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Although, for a telekinetic, the Way of the Astral Self Monk is already most of the way there. The Ki abilities are not even described as magical (although IIRC you believe all Ki use to be magical, that is not actually RAW). For a telekinetic, I would build a caster modelled version (more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial). The Astral Self Monk is only part of the way there, since its "astral arms" only gain an extra 5' reach.
It has some issues with completely devaluing strength, not that strength isn't already low value, and ranged grapple is frequently problematic (as it lacks the normal balancing factor of melee grapple that the grappled target can whomp on the grappler), but it's not per se unreasonable.
Because I already responded to this several pages ago when she gave the rough notes for a psion and it came across as both unfocused and overtuned wherein I suggested that she tone it down by changing the system to be say... advantage on strength checks. She responded by coming back with something that was greatly expanded in terms of functionality.
As to comparing this to the Astral self monk: that requires that the monk be level 3, choose a sub-class, has limited range (ten feet verus upwards of 60) and expend Ki to do something that is a defining feature of their spec on top of all the taxing things monks do.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis? Pardon? Are you certain you understand the concept, what telekinesis actually is? Not to mention advantage on grapples is almost certainly more powerful than being able to substitute int for str on grapples.
I said "more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial" so no, not 'on top of all the things Monks do.' This would be a hypothetical Psion subclass, so yes, likely not at 1st level, but how do you see such a class being competitive pre-subclass? And don't say, 'I don't.' At least try to be constructive, please.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right? I even linked the subclass so people could more easily read it before commenting.
For a tactile version of it? Yeah sounds good to me.
I was. And then Lia ignored my advice and greatly expanded the scope of an ability that is pretty much always on and stacked range on top of it so now I'm being more direct.
Yes, because I bought my copy of Tasha's years ago.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why? The Tele in Telekinesis is 'distance.' Right now, this hypothetical class can grapple at range and shove and can use int instead of str in doing so (or in lifting and carrying). Yes they could theoretically do these things at 60'.... at 17th level. They start out with a much more modest 20' range. There would likely be a size limit on the grapple and shove, too.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
If anything, they are currently very UP.
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
So putting aside the irony of you saying this, tactile psionics isn't a new concept and it has in point of fact been depicted with multiple characters and storylines throughout the years; effetively the character creates a telekinetic field around themselves (often unconsciously) and this serves to both protect themselves from incoming attack and also act as a sort of powered exoskeleton while maintaining the relative dexterity of free movement.
Perhaps if every fight occured on a flat, featureless plane you might have a point but as soon as you include topography into this things get way more complicated; grabbing the wizard and holding himin the fireplace or flicking guards off of a wall all can be devestating and all of this is done esentially for free by a character that may (or may not) have any outward displays of them doing these things given that many Psi enthusiasts have expressed a desire for the characters to not have any components used in casting.
Also for reference, for a wizard to perform a similar feat they would need to be a minimum of 9th level so that they could cast telekinesis which admittedly is considerably stronger but it also comes with considerable limitations (IE requiring casting).
I know it isn't a finished product. That's why I gave suggestions on how Lia_black suggestions for streamlining the Psion and bringing it more in line with other classes a week ago.
No, it isn't a new concept. A martial artist with a utility belt full of gadgets is also not a new concept. There are plenty of concepts out there, but we were discussing a classical telekinetic.
If you want to make a suggestion for a tactile telekinetic, make a separate suggestion but do not insist all other suggestions be on that theme. Not sure what you consider irony in there...
The wizard would have a LOT more than just that telekinesis spell though. And the Telekinesis spell as described is capable of fine work, which the TK Psion version does not mention.
"Streamlining?" too? It is unfinished, so your response is there is too much there???
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
my thoughts are that it’s replicating a chunk of Bigby’s Hand, a level 5 spell but at character level 2
it would need to be scaled
Thanks for the feedback. I can see what you are talking about, but it is significantly weaker than Bigby's Hand as it has a lower strength, much shorter range, can't cause damage, can't push more than 5 feet and it doesn't provide cover. I will mark it in the "add a resource cost" column.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Sorry, I missed this one. I think you are saying it is pushing the limit, but isn't really broken either?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Earlier, one of the suggestions that I had given for this was to take a step back, and consider what a "base class" psion would look like and then how to diverge that into more specific paths; 4e did something like this in PHB3 by presenting two build paths for the psion as either telekinetic or telepathic and having distinct powers for each of those.(kinetic tended more towards AoE whereas telepathic was more debuff as I recall).
By having something like this tied to a higher tier of a specialized telekinetic (along with a modest fee of a psi point; I believe you proposed it to be double the profficiency bonus for total number of points, though I feel that having it comparable to monks chi gains (IE 1 per level) would offer more potential use) you'd have a much more balanced approach to this.
I only have couple of minutes before I have to run out the door, but wanted say thanks for the feedback. I will look at it a bit more in depth after work. To be honest, I have not really put that much thought, time, or effort into this concept and I am not fully dedicated to working on it as anything more than a side project right now so don't expect much lol.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master