You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
Telekinetic Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. You try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition. The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
You can move or carry the grappled creature up to 15 feet but should they be moved beyond your range, the grapple is broken.
A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Intelligence (Athletics) check.
Additionally, grappling in this manner also requires the Psion to maintain concentrations as though concentrating on a spell.
Telekinetic Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. Instead of making an attack roll, you make an Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Telekinetic Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Intelligence score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Telekinetic Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Intelligence score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
I have no idea what is going on with the formatting
My response would be that this is a hard no.
You are effectively getting all the advantages of strength with none of the draw backs at level two and you can do this at range at no cost outside of concentration.
Maybe if you included a resource expenditure (IE the psi points you had proposed earlier) in order to maintain this for a short time this would be more in line but as it is this is just ridiculous.
Re-read the bolded. There is not even anything in there about wielding weapons, so you are not getting "All of the advantages of strength." Even if you were able to use int and TK in place of Str while meleeing using a TK'd weapon (regular or improvised), how is doing so at range that much better than melee other than "but at range!" It being a ranged attack, it would arguably be subject to the disadvantage at melee range rule.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Although, for a telekinetic, the Way of the Astral Self Monk is already most of the way there. The Ki abilities are not even described as magical (although IIRC you believe all Ki use to be magical, that is not actually RAW). For a telekinetic, I would build a caster modelled version (more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial). The Astral Self Monk is only part of the way there, since its "astral arms" only gain an extra 5' reach.
It has some issues with completely devaluing strength, not that strength isn't already low value, and ranged grapple is frequently problematic (as it lacks the normal balancing factor of melee grapple that the grappled target can whomp on the grappler), but it's not per se unreasonable.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Because I already responded to this several pages ago when she gave the rough notes for a psion and it came across as both unfocused and overtuned wherein I suggested that she tone it down by changing the system to be say... advantage on strength checks. She responded by coming back with something that was greatly expanded in terms of functionality.
As to comparing this to the Astral self monk: that requires that the monk be level 3, choose a sub-class, has limited range (ten feet verus upwards of 60) and expend Ki to do something that is a defining feature of their spec on top of all the taxing things monks do.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Because I already responded to this several pages ago when she gave the rough notes for a psion and it came across as both unfocused and overtuned wherein I suggested that she tone it down by changing the system to be say... advantage on strength checks. She responded by coming back with something that was greatly expanded in terms of functionality.
As to comparing this to the Astral self monk: that requires that the monk be level 3, choose a sub-class, has limited range (ten feet versus upwards of 60) and expend Ki to do something that is a defining feature of their spec on top of all the taxing things monks do.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis? Pardon? Are you certain you understand the concept, what telekinesis actually is? Not to mention advantage on grapples is almost certainly more powerful than being able to substitute int for str on grapples.
I said "more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial" so no, not 'on top of all the things Monks do.' This would be a hypothetical Psion subclass, so yes, likely not at 1st level, but how do you see such a class being competitive pre-subclass? And don't say, 'I don't.' At least try to be constructive, please.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right? I even linked the subclass so people could more easily read it before commenting.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis?
For a tactile version of it? Yeah sounds good to me.
At least try to be constructive, please.
I was. And then Lia ignored my advice and greatly expanded the scope of an ability that is pretty much always on and stacked range on top of it so now I'm being more direct.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right?
Yes, because I bought my copy of Tasha's years ago.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis?
For a tactile version of it? Yeah sounds good to me.
At least try to be constructive, please.
I was. And then Lia ignored my advice and greatly expanded the scope of an ability that is pretty much always on and stacked range on top of it so now I'm being more direct.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right?
Yes, because I bought my copy of Tasha's years ago.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why? The Tele in Telekinesis is 'distance.' Right now, this hypothetical class can grapple at range and shove and can use int instead of str in doing so (or in lifting and carrying). Yes they could theoretically do these things at 60'.... at 17th level. They start out with a much more modest 20' range. There would likely be a size limit on the grapple and shove, too.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
If anything, they are currently very UP.
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why?
So putting aside the irony of you saying this, tactile psionics isn't a new concept and it has in point of fact been depicted with multiple characters and storylines throughout the years; effetively the character creates a telekinetic field around themselves (often unconsciously) and this serves to both protect themselves from incoming attack and also act as a sort of powered exoskeleton while maintaining the relative dexterity of free movement.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
Perhaps if every fight occured on a flat, featureless plane you might have a point but as soon as you include topography into this things get way more complicated; grabbing the wizard and holding himin the fireplace or flicking guards off of a wall all can be devestating and all of this is done esentially for free by a character that may (or may not) have any outward displays of them doing these things given that many Psi enthusiasts have expressed a desire for the characters to not have any components used in casting.
Also for reference, for a wizard to perform a similar feat they would need to be a minimum of 9th level so that they could cast telekinesis which admittedly is considerably stronger but it also comes with considerable limitations (IE requiring casting).
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
I know it isn't a finished product. That's why I gave suggestions on how Lia_black suggestions for streamlining the Psion and bringing it more in line with other classes a week ago.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why?
So putting aside the irony of you saying this, tactile psionics isn't a new concept and it has in point of fact been depicted with multiple characters and storylines throughout the years; effetively the character creates a telekinetic field around themselves (often unconsciously) and this serves to both protect themselves from incoming attack and also act as a sort of powered exoskeleton while maintaining the relative dexterity of free movement.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
Perhaps if every fight occured on a flat, featureless plane you might have a point but as soon as you include topography into this things get way more complicated; grabbing the wizard and holding himin the fireplace or flicking guards off of a wall all can be devestating and all of this is done esentially for free by a character that may (or may not) have any outward displays of them doing these things given that many Psi enthusiasts have expressed a desire for the characters to not have any components used in casting.
Also for reference, for a wizard to perform a similar feat they would need to be a minimum of 9th level so that they could cast telekinesis which admittedly is considerably stronger but it also comes with considerable limitations (IE requiring casting).
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
I know it isn't a finished product. That's why I gave suggestions on how Lia_black suggestions for streamlining the Psion and bringing it more in line with other classes a week ago.
No, it isn't a new concept. A martial artist with a utility belt full of gadgets is also not a new concept. There are plenty of concepts out there, but we were discussing a classical telekinetic.
If you want to make a suggestion for a tactile telekinetic, make a separate suggestion but do not insist all other suggestions be on that theme. Not sure what you consider irony in there...
The wizard would have a LOT more than just that telekinesis spell though. And the Telekinesis spell as described is capable of fine work, which the TK Psion version does not mention.
"Streamlining?" too? It is unfinished, so your response is there is too much there???
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
Telekinetic Grappling: When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. You try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you subject the target to the grappled condition. The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).
You can move or carry the grappled creature up to 15 feet but should they be moved beyond your range, the grapple is broken.
A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Intelligence (Athletics) check.
Additionally, grappling in this manner also requires the Psion to maintain concentrations as though concentrating on a spell.
Telekinetic Shove: Using the Attack action, you can make a special attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within a number of feet equal to your proficiency bonus times 10. Instead of making an attack roll, you make an Intelligence (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
Telekinetic Carrying Capacity. Your carrying capacity is your Intelligence score multiplied by 15. This is the weight (in pounds) that you can carry, which is high enough that most characters don’t usually have to worry about it.
Telekinetic Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Intelligence score). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of your carrying capacity, your speed drops to 5 feet.
I have no idea what is going on with the formatting
my thoughts are that it’s replicating a chunk of Bigby’s Hand, a level 5 spell but at character level 2
my thoughts are that it’s replicating a chunk of Bigby’s Hand, a level 5 spell but at character level 2
it would need to be scaled
Thanks for the feedback. I can see what you are talking about, but it is significantly weaker than Bigby's Hand as it has a lower strength, much shorter range, can't cause damage, can't push more than 5 feet and it doesn't provide cover. I will mark it in the "add a resource cost" column.
It has some issues with completely devaluing strength, not that strength isn't already low value, and ranged grapple is frequently problematic (as it lacks the normal balancing factor of melee grapple that the grappled target can whomp on the grappler), but it's not per se unreasonable.
Sorry, I missed this one. I think you are saying it is pushing the limit, but isn't really broken either?
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
Earlier, one of the suggestions that I had given for this was to take a step back, and consider what a "base class" psion would look like and then how to diverge that into more specific paths; 4e did something like this in PHB3 by presenting two build paths for the psion as either telekinetic or telepathic and having distinct powers for each of those.(kinetic tended more towards AoE whereas telepathic was more debuff as I recall).
By having something like this tied to a higher tier of a specialized telekinetic (along with a modest fee of a psi point; I believe you proposed it to be double the profficiency bonus for total number of points, though I feel that having it comparable to monks chi gains (IE 1 per level) would offer more potential use) you'd have a much more balanced approach to this.
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
Earlier, one of the suggestions that I had given for this was to take a step back, and consider what a "base class" psion would look like and then how to diverge that into more specific paths; 4e did something like this in PHB3 by presenting two build paths for the psion as either telekinetic or telepathic and having distinct powers for each of those.(kinetic tended more towards AoE whereas telepathic was more debuff as I recall).
By having something like this tied to a higher tier of a specialized telekinetic (along with a modest fee of a psi point; I believe you proposed it to be double the profficiency bonus for total number of points, though I feel that having it comparable to monks chi gains (IE 1 per level) would offer more potential use) you'd have a much more balanced approach to this.
I only have couple of minutes before I have to run out the door, but wanted say thanks for the feedback. I will look at it a bit more in depth after work. To be honest, I have not really put that much thought, time, or effort into this concept and I am not fully dedicated to working on it as anything more than a side project right now so don't expect much lol.
"Can be" does not equal "likely to be" and certainly does not equal "We cannot possibly do this because this because a Unicorn might be harmed."
I have no idea what you're on about with "a Unicorn might be harmed." They are well-known monsters that are known for interacting with magic and would need additional text somewhere to describe how they interact with whatever psionic nonsense you continue refusing to elaborate on - that's the only point I was making.
And simply do not buy any books you do not like and you will be spared your printed books including books you do not like.
Yeah sorry, that's not how it works. Anything that gets published for this game by WotC is first-party product and would need to be evaluated at every table I play at including AL. Even worse, every half-baked idea they devote their limited design resources to exploring means less time spent working on the things I want them to work on. So if you're expecting me to sit back and take a kumbaya "sure Crawford, waste precious dev cycles failing to make fetch happen yet again like all your predecessors tried and failed to do, I fully support that!" approach when I can speak out against it instead... I strongly advise you not to hold your breath.
As for giving feedback on homebrew solutions, personally I'd rather do that in the homebrew section as this thread is cluttered enough as it is.
Since it's not hard, I'll explain why the TK power isn't some rules nightmare that cannot be done in the framework of D&D:
It's object interaction and stat checks. Just at a distance.
That's... probably not what Yurei asked for, though it's somewhat hard to tell because the actual request was almost completely devoid of detail. It sounded to me like a request for a power stunting system.
I have actually considered in the past what a good framework for a kineticist character might be. As a bare minimum, and with the realization that using a spell as the framework at all galls me to my core...
"Psychokinetic Talent: You know the Mage hand spell and can cast it without providing spell components. When you use this ability to cast this spell, any object you manipulate with the spell is enfolded in a visible, discernible effect such as warping air, ephemeral glow, a scattering of astral dust, or another visible aspect of your power. You can use this version of Mage Hand to do anything you can do with an empty hand, using your action, bonus action, or reaction as appropriate; when the Mage Hand makes an attack roll or ability check, use your own stats to do so. The range of your spell increases by a number of feet equal to 10x your Proficiency bonus, and the amount of weight you can lift becomes 20x your level in this class. You can push or drag double this weight, as normal."
Further class/subclass abilities would add things you can do with your talent, there would be a mechanic for expending Hit Dice to amplify the ability, and if I were writing this for publication I would excise the Mage Hand framework completely as unnecessary and misleading. Off the cuff however, something like this would be broadly in line with what I would be hoping for as a D&D kineticist. Scaling, useful, intuitive and natural psychokinesis - minor at low levels, but getting to be respectable by mid-level and with the capacity to be fairly potent by Tier 4 play given the enhancements the basic ability can receive over a character's lifetime.
I wouldn't say it could be picked up and printed in a rulebook verbatim, but it's an extremely solid start. (If nothing else, she's right that using mage hand at all confuses the issue.) It was actually clearer and more polished than I remembered, and certainly better than some of what's made it into actual 5e books.
Also, I've got to say that the whole "what you want is unclear" schtick is getting increasing amounts of side-eye from me. Yurei may have a distinctive style, but she's actually a pretty clear communicator. Lia_Black is literally trying to build a class in front of you. If you can't understand, I gotta say that's on you.
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
Earlier, one of the suggestions that I had given for this was to take a step back, and consider what a "base class" psion would look like and then how to diverge that into more specific paths; 4e did something like this in PHB3 by presenting two build paths for the psion as either telekinetic or telepathic and having distinct powers for each of those.(kinetic tended more towards AoE whereas telepathic was more debuff as I recall).
By having something like this tied to a higher tier of a specialized telekinetic (along with a modest fee of a psi point; I believe you proposed it to be double the profficiency bonus for total number of points, though I feel that having it comparable to monks chi gains (IE 1 per level) would offer more potential use) you'd have a much more balanced approach to this.
I only have couple of minutes before I have to run out the door, but wanted say thanks for the feedback. I will look at it a bit more in depth after work. To be honest, I have not really put that much thought, time, or effort into this concept and I am not fully dedicated to working on it as anything more than a side project right now so don't expect much lol.
There is something I'd like to address here Lydia_black: of all the psi proponents that I've seen in this thread going all the way back to page one, you are the only one that I think has made a real case for psion as a class. You've done this by working within the framework of 5e's mechanics, looked at other classes to try and create a template and while I may not agree with the implementation thereof, Rest assured you have my respect.
You can interact with the physical world with the strength of your mind instead of your body. You gain the following benefits:
I think it's structured upside-down. The base power of TK is manipulating objects. Establish that, and its limitations, first. (Range, concentration or not, carrying capacity, how many objects you can manipulate at once, whether you can do fine manipulation, whether you can attack, etc.)
Establish a baseline for adjudicating skill checks done with TK. (Int=Str, Wis=Dex?)
Then go into the specifics (shove and grapple). You may want to level-gate them, so shoving comes before grappling, and moving the grapplee might come later. If level-gated, it may be best to structure them as separate abilities.
Edit: There's also a particular "move the grapplee" question to keep in mind: dropping. I don't think it's an actual problem, as the level of damage you can get by classic "pick up and drop" isn't that high, and pit drops come into play once shoving is on the table.
This is easy to answer, since I wrote it yesterday.
First: what is the class fantasy?
Next, make some decisions about the big questions, such as:
What does their resource cycle look like?
What should their power acquisition be like?
What should be base class and what should be subclass?
Are the subclasses power-based or activity-based?
Then develop, test, iterate, test, possibly back off and try something else, etc. Your supposedly critical questions will probably be decided by chrome decisions, and the mechanics may be adjusted slightly to balance them out, or to achieve similar goals in different ways.
Were you going to attempt to answer any of these?
No. We're (or at least I am) discussing how to design a class, and why one shouldn't start by making firm decisions on fairly specific potential balancing details.
The irony is that Wren, Ashla, Pantagruel and I actually have been. The class fantasy is that they cast without needing VSM components;
I assure you, nobody has ever started envisioning their character by saying "I don't want to need VSM components".
The class fantasy is the big picture. The character concept writ large. The archetypes that this class is supposed to allow one to play. One might start with a big pool and narrow it down, or one archetype and build it out. You aren't even touching game mechanics at this point.
For instance, here's a class fantasy for a psi class:
Jedi
It's actually too narrow for a 5e class; it's more of a subclass fantasy -- the Gish subclass of a broader psi class.
But it's a starting point. It gives you some ideas about what the class might be able to do. You'd look at other archetypes and see how they overlap. And also file off some serial numbers so Disney doesn't sue your ass.
(And yes, you could also try to build Jedi as a monk subclass, and it's probably where they started when they built the psi warrior. (But they discarded all the telepathic and precognitive stuff in the process.))
As a side note, failure of class fantasy is the fundamental sorcerer problem.
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Re-read the bolded. There is not even anything in there about wielding weapons, so you are not getting "All of the advantages of strength." Even if you were able to use int and TK in place of Str while meleeing using a TK'd weapon (regular or improvised), how is doing so at range that much better than melee other than "but at range!" It being a ranged attack, it would arguably be subject to the disadvantage at melee range rule.
But most importantly, here, you are simply "Hard no" rather than saying "That is a bit too much. Perhaps scale down the strength a bit and possibly place limits on how often you are able to do this at range?
Although, for a telekinetic, the Way of the Astral Self Monk is already most of the way there. The Ki abilities are not even described as magical (although IIRC you believe all Ki use to be magical, that is not actually RAW). For a telekinetic, I would build a caster modelled version (more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial). The Astral Self Monk is only part of the way there, since its "astral arms" only gain an extra 5' reach.
It has some issues with completely devaluing strength, not that strength isn't already low value, and ranged grapple is frequently problematic (as it lacks the normal balancing factor of melee grapple that the grappled target can whomp on the grappler), but it's not per se unreasonable.
Because I already responded to this several pages ago when she gave the rough notes for a psion and it came across as both unfocused and overtuned wherein I suggested that she tone it down by changing the system to be say... advantage on strength checks. She responded by coming back with something that was greatly expanded in terms of functionality.
As to comparing this to the Astral self monk: that requires that the monk be level 3, choose a sub-class, has limited range (ten feet verus upwards of 60) and expend Ki to do something that is a defining feature of their spec on top of all the taxing things monks do.
"Advantage on Strength Checks" as an implementation of telekinesis? Pardon? Are you certain you understand the concept, what telekinesis actually is? Not to mention advantage on grapples is almost certainly more powerful than being able to substitute int for str on grapples.
I said "more Ki, better 'reach', int based instead of wis, less martial" so no, not 'on top of all the things Monks do.' This would be a hypothetical Psion subclass, so yes, likely not at 1st level, but how do you see such a class being competitive pre-subclass? And don't say, 'I don't.' At least try to be constructive, please.
And you do realize that Astral Monks can substitute wisdom for str (or dex), right? I even linked the subclass so people could more easily read it before commenting.
For a tactile version of it? Yeah sounds good to me.
I was. And then Lia ignored my advice and greatly expanded the scope of an ability that is pretty much always on and stacked range on top of it so now I'm being more direct.
Yes, because I bought my copy of Tasha's years ago.
A 'tactile version?' So, just change the entire concept and do something completely different.... because... why? The Tele in Telekinesis is 'distance.' Right now, this hypothetical class can grapple at range and shove and can use int instead of str in doing so (or in lifting and carrying). Yes they could theoretically do these things at 60'.... at 17th level. They start out with a much more modest 20' range. There would likely be a size limit on the grapple and shove, too.
Lia's version mentions no other martial ability whatsoever. They have no other stated offensive or utility capabilities mentioned at all.
If anything, they are currently very UP.
And again, this was not presented as any sort of finished proposal, nor should it be expected to be such.
So putting aside the irony of you saying this, tactile psionics isn't a new concept and it has in point of fact been depicted with multiple characters and storylines throughout the years; effetively the character creates a telekinetic field around themselves (often unconsciously) and this serves to both protect themselves from incoming attack and also act as a sort of powered exoskeleton while maintaining the relative dexterity of free movement.
Perhaps if every fight occured on a flat, featureless plane you might have a point but as soon as you include topography into this things get way more complicated; grabbing the wizard and holding himin the fireplace or flicking guards off of a wall all can be devestating and all of this is done esentially for free by a character that may (or may not) have any outward displays of them doing these things given that many Psi enthusiasts have expressed a desire for the characters to not have any components used in casting.
Also for reference, for a wizard to perform a similar feat they would need to be a minimum of 9th level so that they could cast telekinesis which admittedly is considerably stronger but it also comes with considerable limitations (IE requiring casting).
I know it isn't a finished product. That's why I gave suggestions on how Lia_black suggestions for streamlining the Psion and bringing it more in line with other classes a week ago.
No, it isn't a new concept. A martial artist with a utility belt full of gadgets is also not a new concept. There are plenty of concepts out there, but we were discussing a classical telekinetic.
If you want to make a suggestion for a tactile telekinetic, make a separate suggestion but do not insist all other suggestions be on that theme. Not sure what you consider irony in there...
The wizard would have a LOT more than just that telekinesis spell though. And the Telekinesis spell as described is capable of fine work, which the TK Psion version does not mention.
"Streamlining?" too? It is unfinished, so your response is there is too much there???
Ashla_Mason, please understand, I didn't mean to make you feel ignored. I simply don't completely agree with you and would like more than a single point of data to draw a conclusion from. Intelligence is the weakest, most dumped, and under used stat in the game. Having it shine for a while isn't going to hurt the game. It isn't on par with Charisma being used as a melee attack stat for example. I highly doubt anyone would sacrifice character progression to dip into Psion just for this ability, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. The only classes that it would benefit would be Wizard or Artificer which really don't want to lose two levels of progress most of the time.
I could see making it cost a Psionic Energy Die, but I will wait for more feedback before making that decision.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
my thoughts are that it’s replicating a chunk of Bigby’s Hand, a level 5 spell but at character level 2
it would need to be scaled
Thanks for the feedback. I can see what you are talking about, but it is significantly weaker than Bigby's Hand as it has a lower strength, much shorter range, can't cause damage, can't push more than 5 feet and it doesn't provide cover. I will mark it in the "add a resource cost" column.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Sorry, I missed this one. I think you are saying it is pushing the limit, but isn't really broken either?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Earlier, one of the suggestions that I had given for this was to take a step back, and consider what a "base class" psion would look like and then how to diverge that into more specific paths; 4e did something like this in PHB3 by presenting two build paths for the psion as either telekinetic or telepathic and having distinct powers for each of those.(kinetic tended more towards AoE whereas telepathic was more debuff as I recall).
By having something like this tied to a higher tier of a specialized telekinetic (along with a modest fee of a psi point; I believe you proposed it to be double the profficiency bonus for total number of points, though I feel that having it comparable to monks chi gains (IE 1 per level) would offer more potential use) you'd have a much more balanced approach to this.
I only have couple of minutes before I have to run out the door, but wanted say thanks for the feedback. I will look at it a bit more in depth after work. To be honest, I have not really put that much thought, time, or effort into this concept and I am not fully dedicated to working on it as anything more than a side project right now so don't expect much lol.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I have no idea what you're on about with "a Unicorn might be harmed." They are well-known monsters that are known for interacting with magic and would need additional text somewhere to describe how they interact with whatever psionic nonsense you continue refusing to elaborate on - that's the only point I was making.
Yeah sorry, that's not how it works. Anything that gets published for this game by WotC is first-party product and would need to be evaluated at every table I play at including AL. Even worse, every half-baked idea they devote their limited design resources to exploring means less time spent working on the things I want them to work on. So if you're expecting me to sit back and take a kumbaya "sure Crawford, waste precious dev cycles failing to make fetch happen yet again like all your predecessors tried and failed to do, I fully support that!" approach when I can speak out against it instead... I strongly advise you not to hold your breath.
As for giving feedback on homebrew solutions, personally I'd rather do that in the homebrew section as this thread is cluttered enough as it is.
Here's what she actually wrote:
I wouldn't say it could be picked up and printed in a rulebook verbatim, but it's an extremely solid start. (If nothing else, she's right that using mage hand at all confuses the issue.) It was actually clearer and more polished than I remembered, and certainly better than some of what's made it into actual 5e books.
Also, I've got to say that the whole "what you want is unclear" schtick is getting increasing amounts of side-eye from me. Yurei may have a distinctive style, but she's actually a pretty clear communicator. Lia_Black is literally trying to build a class in front of you. If you can't understand, I gotta say that's on you.
Huh. That's actually a completely different thing than I thought you were reacting to. That's significantly more implementable.
There is something I'd like to address here Lydia_black: of all the psi proponents that I've seen in this thread going all the way back to page one, you are the only one that I think has made a real case for psion as a class. You've done this by working within the framework of 5e's mechanics, looked at other classes to try and create a template and while I may not agree with the implementation thereof, Rest assured you have my respect.
I think it's structured upside-down. The base power of TK is manipulating objects. Establish that, and its limitations, first. (Range, concentration or not, carrying capacity, how many objects you can manipulate at once, whether you can do fine manipulation, whether you can attack, etc.)
Establish a baseline for adjudicating skill checks done with TK. (Int=Str, Wis=Dex?)
Then go into the specifics (shove and grapple). You may want to level-gate them, so shoving comes before grappling, and moving the grapplee might come later. If level-gated, it may be best to structure them as separate abilities.
Edit: There's also a particular "move the grapplee" question to keep in mind: dropping. I don't think it's an actual problem, as the level of damage you can get by classic "pick up and drop" isn't that high, and pit drops come into play once shoving is on the table.
No. We're (or at least I am) discussing how to design a class, and why one shouldn't start by making firm decisions on fairly specific potential balancing details.
I assure you, nobody has ever started envisioning their character by saying "I don't want to need VSM components".
The class fantasy is the big picture. The character concept writ large. The archetypes that this class is supposed to allow one to play. One might start with a big pool and narrow it down, or one archetype and build it out. You aren't even touching game mechanics at this point.
For instance, here's a class fantasy for a psi class:
Jedi
It's actually too narrow for a 5e class; it's more of a subclass fantasy -- the Gish subclass of a broader psi class.
But it's a starting point. It gives you some ideas about what the class might be able to do. You'd look at other archetypes and see how they overlap. And also file off some serial numbers so Disney doesn't sue your ass.
(And yes, you could also try to build Jedi as a monk subclass, and it's probably where they started when they built the psi warrior. (But they discarded all the telepathic and precognitive stuff in the process.))
As a side note, failure of class fantasy is the fundamental sorcerer problem.