I needed a few days away but I’m back. So to cover some things in the 5+ pages since my last post. 1) as some one else pointed out Eddings “sorcery” is not D&D magic. It is manipulation of ( the fictional) reality through direct conscious will and word and to me that is psy not D&D’s weave or world spanning magic field that is being manipulated to create an effect. Nor are the abilities tiered like in D&D so trying to call it “D&D magic is nonsense. 2) in an earlier post I made the point that in English (at least) “magic” is the generic term for all supernatural/extranatural manipulations of reality. Yes, by that definition Psi is magic, but again it’s not D&D specific magic - lets drop that argument. 3) I think that everyone on the pro-psi side is in agreement that psi should not have material components. That doesn’t mean we are against verbal and somatic components and even foci. Far too many arguments seem to jump to extreme positions instead of what was actually being said (on both sides). 4) Lia, Ashla and Yurei - thank you for posting write ups for pieces of an actual psion class that we could discuss. Thank you to everyone who has been part of the civil discussion on their pieces. 5) did anyone bother to read through the class description I posted in the spoiler back on p44? I got a few comments on the clear text of the post but nothing on the spoiler and several folks have been asking for exactly that to comment on. 6) in her description Yurei used the mage hand spell as a base but made very clear that doing so was anathema to her and she was doing it because it was a quick base to work from in a system that doesn’t have what she wants - it was not proof that psi can be adequately described by the D&D magic system of spell slots. 7) the 2 core pieces which any psi system has to have to fit into D&D (IMHO) are that that it use actions/bonus actions&reactions as well as short and long rests and that the abilities can be fitted into a 10 level power structure equivalent to the power of cantrips through Level 9 spells. ( a side note for a different discussion elsewhere is that this is a major piece of the martial magic divide - magic has 10 levels martials at best have the lower 5-6 and at worst 2-3). 8) to get the sort of natural continuous use Yurei (especially) wants the spell slot system doesn’t provide the right feel while a mix of class/subclass abilities and psi points probably would as it lets you add abilities and scale damage. Probably with at means of restoring psi points to some extent on a short rest (maybe expending hit dice to restore psi points rather than hit points in some way)
This is easy to answer, since I wrote it yesterday.
First: what is the class fantasy?
Next, make some decisions about the big questions, such as:
What does their resource cycle look like?
What should their power acquisition be like?
What should be base class and what should be subclass?
Are the subclasses power-based or activity-based?
Then develop, test, iterate, test, possibly back off and try something else, etc. Your supposedly critical questions will probably be decided by chrome decisions, and the mechanics may be adjusted slightly to balance them out, or to achieve similar goals in different ways.
Were you going to attempt to answer any of these?
No. We're (or at least I am) discussing how to design a class, and why one shouldn't start by making firm decisions on fairly specific potential balancing details.
The irony is that Wren, Ashla, Pantagruel and I actually have been. The class fantasy is that they cast without needing VSM components;
I assure you, nobody has ever started envisioning their character by saying "I don't want to need VSM components".
The class fantasy is the big picture. The character concept writ large. The archetypes that this class is supposed to allow one to play. One might start with a big pool and narrow it down, or one archetype and build it out. You aren't even touching game mechanics at this point.
For instance, here's a class fantasy for a psi class:
Jedi
It's actually too narrow for a 5e class; it's more of a subclass fantasy -- the Gish subclass of a broader psi class.
But it's a starting point. It gives you some ideas about what the class might be able to do. You'd look at other archetypes and see how they overlap. And also file off some serial numbers so Disney doesn't sue your ass.
(And yes, you could also try to build Jedi as a monk subclass, and it's probably where they started when they built the psi warrior. (But they discarded all the telepathic and precognitive stuff in the process.))
As a side note, failure of class fantasy is the fundamental sorcerer problem.
Actually, I don't agree that V,S,M components shouldn't be part of the class because the mentalist with his hand to his head shouting out "open your mind" is using his powers with V and S and a focusing crystal is a type of spell focus.
I've said that a psion's signature powers should be telekinesis and telepathy and that other powers include clairvoyance (danger sense, astral projection, object reading, far viewing, etc.) and a _little_ bit of psychometabolism (temp hit points,, energy reduction, etc.).
I'm not familiar with any mentalists in fantasy. The Belgariad and Lensmen are allegedly two such examples, but I've not read them. Star Wars is sci fi, not fantasy, so is Dune.
I'm not familiar with any mentalists in fantasy. The Belgariad and Lensmen are allegedly two such examples, but I've not read them. Star Wars is sci fi, not fantasy, so is Dune.
There's a fair amount of fantasy with several types of magic, one of which more or less corresponds to psi, but they're generally divided by effect types -- I can't think of a setting where, say, both psionic telepathy and wizardly telepathy exists, and the two don't work the same way under the hood.
Slow Flight Speed like 15ft or so, I just really want my psion to be able to float and Levitation is not it. Most abilities based on Concentration, with later base kit enhancing Concentration, maybe by allowing concentration on multiple things or hardening concentration saves or maybe stuff like burning a Hit Die to prevent losing concentration.
It's pretty sketchy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Strangely the place that I think of that comes closest to having both D&D style magic and Psi is Marvel comics. Dr. Strange is pretty much a straight up D&D Wizard ( of epic levels) while Jean Grey is a pure psi and scarlet witch combines both. Of course the marvel universe has no hard and fast rules so extrapolating from there is difficult.
Strangely the place that I think of that comes closest to having both D&D style magic and Psi is Marvel comics.
Superhero comics are among the most kitchen-sink of all genres, which is why a lot of superhero games work as generic games. None of the stuff in this thread would be a challenge for, say, Fantasy Hero, because it's really a fantasy skin on Champions.
No. We're (or at least I am) discussing how to design a class, and why one shouldn't start by making firm decisions on fairly specific potential balancing details.
Got it, they're koans to be silently contemplated/admired rather than questions to be answered.
I assure you, nobody has ever started envisioning their character by saying "I don't want to need VSM components".
You might want to tell that to Yurei then, as one of her chief objections to spellcasting was, and I quote, "Woo-Woo Finger-Waggling." Which I took to mean opposition to verbal and somatic components.
The class fantasy is the big picture. The character concept writ large. The archetypes that this class is supposed to allow one to play. One might start with a big pool and narrow it down, or one archetype and build it out. You aren't even touching game mechanics at this point.
For instance, here's a class fantasy for a psi class:
Jedi
It's actually too narrow for a 5e class; it's more of a subclass fantasy -- the Gish subclass of a broader psi class.
But it's a starting point. It gives you some ideas about what the class might be able to do. You'd look at other archetypes and see how they overlap. And also file off some serial numbers so Disney doesn't sue your ass.
(And yes, you could also try to build Jedi as a monk subclass, and it's probably where they started when they built the psi warrior. (But they discarded all the telepathic and precognitive stuff in the process.))
As a side note, failure of class fantasy is the fundamental sorcerer problem.
I'm totally fine with starting from broad concept/fictional precedent like this. But we keep ending up stagnating because your rigidity gets in the way when it comes to actually making something that is balanced within the game system, followed by you getting angry with us whenever we suggest you might be better off with a different system.
For example, you say Psi Warrior is close to realizing "Jedi" but fails because it's not telepathic or precognitive. And yet, Telepathic and Alert/Lucky are all feats the Psi Warrior can take that do provide such abilities. I would feel like a Jedi with those things AND be balanced with the rest of the game.
It's also a case of if you want to play as a Jedi and do all the Jedi things then you are better off with any of the three different star wars RPGs that have been made in the past then trying to implement it in D&D.
The Belgariad is definitely mentalist fantasy. The Lensman series really isn’t until you get to the last couple of books with the second and third stage lensmen. The lens is the “mentalist” until then. Doc Smith does have a pure mentalist/ psi sci if story however it’s called Galaxy Primes.
Strangely the place that I think of that comes closest to having both D&D style magic and Psi is Marvel comics. Dr. Strange is pretty much a straight up D&D Wizard ( of epic levels) while Jean Grey is a pure psi and scarlet witch combines both. Of course the marvel universe has no hard and fast rules so extrapolating from there is difficult.
Actually, for most of his history, Dr Strange is somewhere between Warlock and Cleric. HIs spells are all invocations calling on the assistance of various higher powers. There was even a storyline where the higher powers all tried to call in their markers at once and he had to renounce all magic to get out of that, ending up learning druidism for a while (which did not work well at all, or at least the writers could not make it non-hokey).
But yes, Jean is Psi. And to correct some comments earlier in the thread, Mutant and Psi are not synonyms either.
It's also a case of if you want to play as a Jedi and do all the Jedi things then you are better off with any of the three different star wars RPGs that have been made in the past then trying to implement it in D&D.
So if you want to play a Jedi that exists in a world where magic also works, fights dragons and other mythical beasts, they should have to go play some other system, even though dragons and other mythical beasts are just as alien to Star Wars as Jedi are to D&D. This does not mean they are de facto completely incompatible.
Harry Potter's books use a very different magic system than D&D but that does not stop Stryxhaven from existing.
So if you want to play a Jedi that exists in a world where magic also works, fights dragons and other mythical beasts, they should have to go play some other system, even though dragons and other mythical beasts are just as alien to Star Wars as Jedi are to D&D. This does not mean they are de facto completely incompatible.
Harry Potter's books use a very different magic system than D&D but that does not stop Stryxhaven from existing.
We literally just told you how you can play a Jedi in D&D. But your response is going to be "I don't think of that as a Jedi" and round and round we go.
I don't believe that Jedi are mentalists. They are using the Force. Mentalists don't rely on an outside power, they rely on the power of their minds. Jedi are paladins of an animist religion.
It's also a case of if you want to play as a Jedi and do all the Jedi things then you are better off with any of the three different star wars RPGs that have been made in the past then trying to implement it in D&D.
So if you want to play a Jedi that exists in a world where magic also works, fights dragons and other mythical beasts, they should have to go play some other system, even though dragons and other mythical beasts are just as alien to Star Wars as Jedi are to D&D. This does not mean they are de facto completely incompatible.
Harry Potter's books use a very different magic system than D&D but that does not stop Stryxhaven from existing.
I'm working under the assumption that if you want to play a Jedi then what you want to do is play a Star wars RPG.
Because that's where you will find Jedi.
As to stryxhaven: I can just about guarantee you that it was a magic set literally created to cash in on harry potter. It may have been late to the party but it absolutely was the intent.
No. We're (or at least I am) discussing how to design a class, and why one shouldn't start by making firm decisions on fairly specific potential balancing details.
Got it, they're koans to be silently contemplated/admired rather than questions to be answered.
They are questions you need to answer if you're designing a class. I'm not. I'm talking about the process.
You know the old joke about how to sculpt an elephant?* They're how you figure out what your elephant looks like.
* Just in case you don't: "Get a block of marble, and chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant."
I assure you, nobody has ever started envisioning their character by saying "I don't want to need VSM components".
You might want to tell that to Yurei then, as one of her chief objections to spellcasting was, and I quote, "Woo-Woo Finger-Waggling." Which I took to mean opposition to verbal and somatic components.
Yes. It doesn't fit the class fantasy, and that's one way how it doesn't. And if you want to know the class fantasy she's working from:
The class fantasy is the big picture. The character concept writ large. The archetypes that this class is supposed to allow one to play. One might start with a big pool and narrow it down, or one archetype and build it out. You aren't even touching game mechanics at this point.
For instance, here's a class fantasy for a psi class:
Jedi
It's actually too narrow for a 5e class; it's more of a subclass fantasy -- the Gish subclass of a broader psi class.
But it's a starting point. It gives you some ideas about what the class might be able to do. You'd look at other archetypes and see how they overlap. And also file off some serial numbers so Disney doesn't sue your ass.
(And yes, you could also try to build Jedi as a monk subclass, and it's probably where they started when they built the psi warrior. (But they discarded all the telepathic and precognitive stuff in the process.))
As a side note, failure of class fantasy is the fundamental sorcerer problem.
I'm totally fine with starting from broad concept/fictional precedent like this. But we keep ending up stagnating because your rigidity gets in the way when it comes to actually making something that is balanced within the game system, followed by you getting angry with us whenever we suggest you might be better off with a different system.
For example, you say Psi Warrior is close to realizing "Jedi" but fails because it's not telepathic or precognitive. And yet, Telepathic and Alert/Lucky are all feats the Psi Warrior can take that do provide such abilities. I would feel like a Jedi with those things AND be balanced with the rest of the game.
I cannot help but notice that, whenever presented with a general principle and an example, you immediately start arguing the example.
Jedi is an archetype one might start from when building a class. I used it because it's well-known, and useful for illustrating the point about narrowness and needing multiple archetypes. Whether or not you can make something Jedi-like in D&D already is completely beside the point.
So if you want to play a Jedi that exists in a world where magic also works, fights dragons and other mythical beasts, they should have to go play some other system, even though dragons and other mythical beasts are just as alien to Star Wars as Jedi are to D&D. This does not mean they are de facto completely incompatible.
There are a bunch of ways to do a jedi-approximate character, the problem is just that D&D is a class system and there isn't a class with the exact right combination of features so you'll likely need multiclass shenanigans. The easiest is probably a bladesinger wizard (no need for subtle spell; jedi most certainly use verbal and somatic components).
So if you want to play a Jedi that exists in a world where magic also works, fights dragons and other mythical beasts, they should have to go play some other system, even though dragons and other mythical beasts are just as alien to Star Wars as Jedi are to D&D. This does not mean they are de facto completely incompatible.
There are a bunch of ways to do a jedi-approximate character, the problem is just that D&D is a class system and there isn't a class with the exact right combination of features so you'll likely need multiclass shenanigans. The easiest is probably a bladesinger wizard (no need for subtle spell; jedi most certainly use verbal and somatic components).
Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
The force is absolutely magic. It's divine magic (the Jedi are called a religion in multiple places) so it would be preferable if you could do it with a paladin subclass, but it's definitely magic.
They are questions you need to answer if you're designing a class. I'm not. I'm talking about the process.
So am I; your chosen process is not the only way to approach designing a class. Starting from how you want it to differ mechanically from existing classes (such as no woo-woo finger-waggling components), and how those mechanical differences evoke the fantasy you want, is equally valid.
I cannot help but notice that, whenever presented with a general principle and an example, you immediately start arguing the example.
Jedi is an archetype one might start from when building a class. I used it because it's well-known, and useful for illustrating the point about narrowness and needing multiple archetypes. Whether or not you can make something Jedi-like in D&D already is completely beside the point.
I argue the example because it... exemplifies.... the underlying mindset problem that is holding several of you back. Namely, that if the building blocks we have can't represent a given fictional concept with perfect fidelity, that is somehow a failing of the system rather than the system doing what it was designed to do.
If I did a poll on how to make a Jedi in 5e, I think the vast majority of responses would be to start with a Psi Warrior and then either multiclass or add in feats (or both.) Would that precisely get me everything Luke Skywalker or Ahsoka Tano could do? Probably not, but it would without a doubt be balanced with the rest of 5e's design.
I think I am going to hold off on working on the Psion (if I work on it at all) till after the new books are out. Looks like class power levels are going to shift around and I might as well wait and see where everything lands.
Thanks everyone!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
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I needed a few days away but I’m back. So to cover some things in the 5+ pages since my last post.
1) as some one else pointed out Eddings “sorcery” is not D&D magic. It is manipulation of ( the fictional) reality through direct conscious will and word and to me that is psy not D&D’s weave or world spanning magic field that is being manipulated to create an effect. Nor are the abilities tiered like in D&D so trying to call it “D&D magic is nonsense.
2) in an earlier post I made the point that in English (at least) “magic” is the generic term for all supernatural/extranatural manipulations of reality. Yes, by that definition Psi is magic, but again it’s not D&D specific magic - lets drop that argument.
3) I think that everyone on the pro-psi side is in agreement that psi should not have material components. That doesn’t mean we are against verbal and somatic components and even foci. Far too many arguments seem to jump to extreme positions instead of what was actually being said (on both sides).
4) Lia, Ashla and Yurei - thank you for posting write ups for pieces of an actual psion class that we could discuss. Thank you to everyone who has been part of the civil discussion on their pieces.
5) did anyone bother to read through the class description I posted in the spoiler back on p44? I got a few comments on the clear text of the post but nothing on the spoiler and several folks have been asking for exactly that to comment on.
6) in her description Yurei used the mage hand spell as a base but made very clear that doing so was anathema to her and she was doing it because it was a quick base to work from in a system that doesn’t have what she wants - it was not proof that psi can be adequately described by the D&D magic system of spell slots.
7) the 2 core pieces which any psi system has to have to fit into D&D (IMHO) are that that it use actions/bonus actions&reactions as well as short and long rests and that the abilities can be fitted into a 10 level power structure equivalent to the power of cantrips through Level 9 spells. ( a side note for a different discussion elsewhere is that this is a major piece of the martial magic divide - magic has 10 levels martials at best have the lower 5-6 and at worst 2-3).
8) to get the sort of natural continuous use Yurei (especially) wants the spell slot system doesn’t provide the right feel while a mix of class/subclass abilities and psi points probably would as it lets you add abilities and scale damage. Probably with at means of restoring psi points to some extent on a short rest (maybe expending hit dice to restore psi points rather than hit points in some way)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Actually, I don't agree that V,S,M components shouldn't be part of the class because the mentalist with his hand to his head shouting out "open your mind" is using his powers with V and S and a focusing crystal is a type of spell focus.
I've said that a psion's signature powers should be telekinesis and telepathy and that other powers include clairvoyance (danger sense, astral projection, object reading, far viewing, etc.) and a _little_ bit of psychometabolism (temp hit points,, energy reduction, etc.).
I'm not familiar with any mentalists in fantasy. The Belgariad and Lensmen are allegedly two such examples, but I've not read them. Star Wars is sci fi, not fantasy, so is Dune.
There's a fair amount of fantasy with several types of magic, one of which more or less corresponds to psi, but they're generally divided by effect types -- I can't think of a setting where, say, both psionic telepathy and wizardly telepathy exists, and the two don't work the same way under the hood.
The Psion Class ideas I have are:
Slow Flight Speed like 15ft or so, I just really want my psion to be able to float and Levitation is not it.
Most abilities based on Concentration, with later base kit enhancing Concentration, maybe by allowing concentration on multiple things or hardening concentration saves or maybe stuff like burning a Hit Die to prevent losing concentration.
It's pretty sketchy.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Strangely the place that I think of that comes closest to having both D&D style magic and Psi is Marvel comics. Dr. Strange is pretty much a straight up D&D Wizard ( of epic levels) while Jean Grey is a pure psi and scarlet witch combines both. Of course the marvel universe has no hard and fast rules so extrapolating from there is difficult.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Superhero comics are among the most kitchen-sink of all genres, which is why a lot of superhero games work as generic games. None of the stuff in this thread would be a challenge for, say, Fantasy Hero, because it's really a fantasy skin on Champions.
Got it, they're koans to be silently contemplated/admired rather than questions to be answered.
You might want to tell that to Yurei then, as one of her chief objections to spellcasting was, and I quote, "Woo-Woo Finger-Waggling." Which I took to mean opposition to verbal and somatic components.
I'm totally fine with starting from broad concept/fictional precedent like this. But we keep ending up stagnating because your rigidity gets in the way when it comes to actually making something that is balanced within the game system, followed by you getting angry with us whenever we suggest you might be better off with a different system.
For example, you say Psi Warrior is close to realizing "Jedi" but fails because it's not telepathic or precognitive. And yet, Telepathic and Alert/Lucky are all feats the Psi Warrior can take that do provide such abilities. I would feel like a Jedi with those things AND be balanced with the rest of the game.
It's also a case of if you want to play as a Jedi and do all the Jedi things then you are better off with any of the three different star wars RPGs that have been made in the past then trying to implement it in D&D.
The Belgariad is definitely mentalist fantasy. The Lensman series really isn’t until you get to the last couple of books with the second and third stage lensmen. The lens is the “mentalist” until then. Doc Smith does have a pure mentalist/ psi sci if story however it’s called Galaxy Primes.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Actually, for most of his history, Dr Strange is somewhere between Warlock and Cleric. HIs spells are all invocations calling on the assistance of various higher powers. There was even a storyline where the higher powers all tried to call in their markers at once and he had to renounce all magic to get out of that, ending up learning druidism for a while (which did not work well at all, or at least the writers could not make it non-hokey).
But yes, Jean is Psi. And to correct some comments earlier in the thread, Mutant and Psi are not synonyms either.
So if you want to play a Jedi that exists in a world where magic also works, fights dragons and other mythical beasts, they should have to go play some other system, even though dragons and other mythical beasts are just as alien to Star Wars as Jedi are to D&D. This does not mean they are de facto completely incompatible.
Harry Potter's books use a very different magic system than D&D but that does not stop Stryxhaven from existing.
We literally just told you how you can play a Jedi in D&D. But your response is going to be "I don't think of that as a Jedi" and round and round we go.
I don't believe that Jedi are mentalists. They are using the Force. Mentalists don't rely on an outside power, they rely on the power of their minds. Jedi are paladins of an animist religion.
I'm working under the assumption that if you want to play a Jedi then what you want to do is play a Star wars RPG.
Because that's where you will find Jedi.
As to stryxhaven: I can just about guarantee you that it was a magic set literally created to cash in on harry potter. It may have been late to the party but it absolutely was the intent.
They are questions you need to answer if you're designing a class. I'm not. I'm talking about the process.
You know the old joke about how to sculpt an elephant?* They're how you figure out what your elephant looks like.
* Just in case you don't: "Get a block of marble, and chip away everything that doesn't look like an elephant."
Yes. It doesn't fit the class fantasy, and that's one way how it doesn't. And if you want to know the class fantasy she's working from:
I cannot help but notice that, whenever presented with a general principle and an example, you immediately start arguing the example.
Jedi is an archetype one might start from when building a class. I used it because it's well-known, and useful for illustrating the point about narrowness and needing multiple archetypes. Whether or not you can make something Jedi-like in D&D already is completely beside the point.
There are a bunch of ways to do a jedi-approximate character, the problem is just that D&D is a class system and there isn't a class with the exact right combination of features so you'll likely need multiclass shenanigans. The easiest is probably a bladesinger wizard (no need for subtle spell; jedi most certainly use verbal and somatic components).
Other than the Force being something other than magic and thus not dispel-able or subject to anti-magic effects....
The force is absolutely magic. It's divine magic (the Jedi are called a religion in multiple places) so it would be preferable if you could do it with a paladin subclass, but it's definitely magic.
So am I; your chosen process is not the only way to approach designing a class. Starting from how you want it to differ mechanically from existing classes (such as no woo-woo finger-waggling components), and how those mechanical differences evoke the fantasy you want, is equally valid.
I argue the example because it... exemplifies.... the underlying mindset problem that is holding several of you back. Namely, that if the building blocks we have can't represent a given fictional concept with perfect fidelity, that is somehow a failing of the system rather than the system doing what it was designed to do.
If I did a poll on how to make a Jedi in 5e, I think the vast majority of responses would be to start with a Psi Warrior and then either multiclass or add in feats (or both.) Would that precisely get me everything Luke Skywalker or Ahsoka Tano could do? Probably not, but it would without a doubt be balanced with the rest of 5e's design.
I think I am going to hold off on working on the Psion (if I work on it at all) till after the new books are out. Looks like class power levels are going to shift around and I might as well wait and see where everything lands.
Thanks everyone!
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master