Because using spells locks you into the model that spells are built into, where every power is self-contained. If you think that's good enough, then yes, every psi class is going to look redundant to other casters. If you want any other model, spells often don't fit. (Also, that spell list is very much a small subset of the scope of psi powers as portrayed in the literature.)
Every power in the game is self-contained; D&D has never gone for a prerequisite tree system, other than 3rd edition feat trees,
They've got prerequisite feats in Strixhaven, Dragonlance, and Planescape. The last playtest warlock had some too, by turning the pacts into invocations. I don't remember 4e character gen that well, since I only DMed it, but IIRC there was some of that going on. (Or maybe only at the larger scale of paragon paths and epic destinies.)
(And anything pre-3e, you didn't really have any choices to make in terms of powers. Weapon specialization requiring proficiency in 2e doesn't really count. (I also never used kits, so remember no details about them.))
But yes, they mostly work by level-gating features in 5e. But that doesn't make it anathema.
A system like that would be interesting... but you'd want to replace the existing spell system, not try to have them coexist.
A system like that would be interesting... but you'd want to replace the existing spell system, not try to have them coexist.
I don't see why.
A lot of the problem with psi is that magic doesn't have enough limitations, so you wind up being "I'm like a wizard, only worse". Fix the extreme jack-of-all-trades of current spellcasters, and a lot of the issues vanish.
A system like that would be interesting... but you'd want to replace the existing spell system, not try to have them coexist.
I don't see why.
A lot of the problem with psi is that magic doesn't have enough limitations, so you wind up being "I'm like a wizard, only worse". Fix the extreme jack-of-all-trades of current spellcasters, and a lot of the issues vanish.
Eh, you’re still somewhere between reinventing the wheel and building a better mousetrap. Truly alternative magic systems are good for stories where the pros and cons are plot points, but for games that desire more or less parity of utility it’s a particularly circuitous route to what would at best be near identical results, imo.
Theres also the fact that you can easily reflavor just about any class to be psionic:
Barbarian: literally mind over matter as you will yourself to ignore injury by tapping into vast amounts of anger.
Bard: you telepathically manipulate those around you.
Druid: You have the ability to telepathically interact with natural elements around you.
Cleric: Your god is an abstract concept that your complete belief in allows you manifest "miracles" from by force of will.
Fighter: years of discipline and intuition have given you a preternatual understanding of those around you as well as tapping into greater levels of innate instinct thus affording you an edge in combat.
Monk: Chi was literally the inspiration for the force which is basically psionics.
Paladin: you literally draw strength from a codified ideal.
Ranger: You are telepathically in tune with the natural world.
Rogue: your telepathic abilities make you better at sneaking around and manipulating others.
Sorcerer: you are literally tapping into your own mind to manifest raw psychic energy.
Warlock: an extradimensional entity has untapped a portion of your psychic abilities.
Wizard: you have studied how to utilize psionic abilties.
Like this isn't nearly as hard or convoluted as the people who want a treehouse magic system think it needs to be.
i could see a feat for certain (classes of) characters that develop psionics later: [level 4 barbarian, monk, sorcerer, warlock, or fighter] - as an Action begin concentrating. roll 1d4: while concentrating, add the number rolled + INT mod to your next skill check. if the number rolled is greater than the user's INT mod, then this action requires a rest to recharge.
if i had more time (and a bigger screen) I'd split this into different feats grouping certain skills based on separate disciplines: body augmentation (athletics, stealth), information gathering (survival, history), mind stuff (persuade, intimidate), etc. psionics isn't complete with only telepathy and telekinetics.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Eh, you’re still somewhere between reinventing the wheel and building a better mousetrap. Truly alternative magic systems are good for stories where the pros and cons are plot points, but for games that desire more or less parity of utility it’s a particularly circuitous route to what would at best be near identical results, imo.
For games that desire more or less parity of utility the existing magic system is utterly horrible and a large component of the martial/caster disparity.
Theres also the fact that you can easily reflavor just about any class to be psionic:
Barbarian: literally mind over matter as you will yourself to ignore injury by tapping into vast amounts of anger.
Bard: you telepathically manipulate those around you.
Druid: You have the ability to telepathically interact with natural elements around you.
Cleric: Your god is an abstract concept that your complete belief in allows you manifest "miracles" from by force of will.
Fighter: years of discipline and intuition have given you a preternatual understanding of those around you as well as tapping into greater levels of innate instinct thus affording you an edge in combat.
Monk: Chi was literally the inspiration for the force which is basically psionics.
Paladin: you literally draw strength from a codified ideal.
Ranger: You are telepathically in tune with the natural world.
Rogue: your telepathic abilities make you better at sneaking around and manipulating others.
Sorcerer: you are literally tapping into your own mind to manifest raw psychic energy.
Warlock: an extradimensional entity has untapped a portion of your psychic abilities.
Wizard: you have studied how to utilize psionic abilties.
Like this isn't nearly as hard or convoluted as the people who want a treehouse magic system think it needs to be.
i could see a feat for certain (classes of) characters that develop psionics later: [level 4 barbarian, monk, sorcerer, warlock, or fighter] - as an Action begin concentrating. roll 1d4: while concentrating, add the number rolled + INT mod to your next skill check. if the number rolled is greater than the user's INT mod, then this action requires a rest to recharge.
if i had more time (and a bigger screen) I'd split this into different feats grouping certain skills based on separate disciplines: body augmentation (athletics, stealth), information gathering (survival, history), mind stuff (persuade, intimidate), etc. psionics isn't complete with only telepathy and telekinetics.
You don't need to add anything to it. There is no need to create a new system or argue for int or any of that you just say that it's psionics if you want to make psionics a thing.
Eh, you’re still somewhere between reinventing the wheel and building a better mousetrap. Truly alternative magic systems are good for stories where the pros and cons are plot points, but for games that desire more or less parity of utility it’s a particularly circuitous route to what would at best be near identical results, imo.
For games that desire more or less parity of utility the existing magic system is utterly horrible and a large component of the martial/caster disparity.
I wasn’t speaking in terms of martials and casters, I was speaking in terms of Magic A and Magic B.
I wasn’t speaking in terms of martials and casters, I was speaking in terms of Magic A and Magic B.
My point is that you can't introduce a new system while leaving the old one in place; you have to remove the old one, because most of the problems are caused by the old system.
I hated psionics in 2e. it was just magic but better because you couldn't detect it or dispel it. The limited classes of the 3/3.5e soul knife and psi warrior, IMO, were better. I would be hesitant to include psionics that was treated different than other magic in any game I was in.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I started playing D&D from the basic box set in 1979.
So now we're overhauling the extent magic system and creating a whole new one on top of it?
No, we're cramming psionics into the extant magic system. The point is, if you want a new system... it's gotta be a new system that applies to everything, because otherwise it's just going to be a poor second fiddle to the extant magic system.
I wasn’t speaking in terms of martials and casters, I was speaking in terms of Magic A and Magic B.
My point is that you can't introduce a new system while leaving the old one in place; you have to remove the old one, because most of the problems are caused by the old system.
even some out of the blue AD&D5e magic overhaul wouldn't bring back 2e psionics as a single class. are we really holding out for that or would a splat book with some "new" spells based on old psionic powers be enough?
as it is, they'll continue to handle 5e psionics in subclasses and feats because there's no overhauling the magic system that way. no upsetting the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Doesn’t the Sorcerer fill the need for a character whose powers are all mental? Just select the right spells and cantrips; Telekinesis, Mage Hand, Detect Thoughts, Jump, Magic Missile, etc. and use the Metamagics which free you from needing spell components.
The one thing I miss is the Psionic Warrior from 3e. I feel that that’s how Monks should be done.
There is a psi warrior in 5e. It's not going to be 1:1 with it's predecessor but that's honestly a good thing given how 3rd was honestly terrible from a class design/balance standpoint.
Also You can just as easily argue that the paladin or hexblade is psionic if you need a MIND POWERZ MAN1!1 swinging a sword around.
I should have prefaced my statement with “that’s like saying, Fighters were awful in 1E” but I was in a hurry.
Awful, yes, but so was every class in it's own way. 1st, 2nd, AD&D the whole era was filled with inconsistent bad mechanics and gameplay. Every class had it's own XP table, Humans could do anything, everyone else was limited in both level and classes.
Theres also the fact that you can easily reflavor just about any class to be psionic:
Barbarian: literally mind over matter as you will yourself to ignore injury by tapping into vast amounts of anger.
Bard: you telepathically manipulate those around you.
Druid: You have the ability to telepathically interact with natural elements around you.
Cleric: Your god is an abstract concept that your complete belief in allows you manifest "miracles" from by force of will.
Fighter: years of discipline and intuition have given you a preternatual understanding of those around you as well as tapping into greater levels of innate instinct thus affording you an edge in combat.
Monk: Chi was literally the inspiration for the force which is basically psionics.
Paladin: you literally draw strength from a codified ideal.
Ranger: You are telepathically in tune with the natural world.
Rogue: your telepathic abilities make you better at sneaking around and manipulating others.
Sorcerer: you are literally tapping into your own mind to manifest raw psychic energy.
Warlock: an extradimensional entity has untapped a portion of your psychic abilities.
Wizard: you have studied how to utilize psionic abilties.
Like this isn't nearly as hard or convoluted as the people who want a treehouse magic system think it needs to be.
i could see a feat for certain (classes of) characters that develop psionics later: [level 4 barbarian, monk, sorcerer, warlock, or fighter] - as an Action begin concentrating. roll 1d4: while concentrating, add the number rolled + INT mod to your next skill check. if the number rolled is greater than the user's INT mod, then this action requires a rest to recharge.
if i had more time (and a bigger screen) I'd split this into different feats grouping certain skills based on separate disciplines: body augmentation (athletics, stealth), information gathering (survival, history), mind stuff (persuade, intimidate), etc. psionics isn't complete with only telepathy and telekinetics.
Small list of Psionics already in the game, there is more.
Wild Magic is psionics from AD&D, most of your charm spells, and many of your Force damage type spells.
So Wild Magic Barbarian is technically a Psionic Subclass Monk's Ki points are basically an improved version of the AD&D PSP system, all Monks are Psions
Aberrant Mind is from the Mystic UA the 5e UA for a psionic class.
Warlocks can easily be flavored psionic esp Great Old one. As some people have Systems ie more than one mind occupying the same body, you could RP the Warlock as taking the Pact from the Psionic half of their mind. Kalashtar work well with this.
Psi-Warrior from the Mystic class, Echo-Knight and Eldritch-Knight also work with the psionic theme.
Soul-Knife came from the Mystic, and you can theme a few other Rogues as Psionic.
I hated psionics in 2e. it was just magic but better because you couldn't detect it or dispel it. The limited classes of the 3/3.5e soul knife and psi warrior, IMO, were better. I would be hesitant to include psionics that was treated different than other magic in any game I was in.
AD&D = No, it was not magic back then. It was an overly complicated mess, it was both over powered and self destructive at the same time. It did a few good ideas ie one of the fist Mana systems for table top RPGs. It was however horribly designed, and impossible to build a truly powerful build with it. You also had two Abilities which were both game breaking in wording and could just as easily backfire. Yet most DMs never read the mishap rules on Psionics as they basically created a 10% chance of Total Party Kill if the Psion used Disintegrate or Detonate. Meanwhile the rest of the Abilities basically became situational feats you could buy per fight. Which was honestly great, but everyone focused on the two OP abilities.
3rd era I was running a Game Store back then, and honestly I was more impressed with Star Wars D20 than any of the other 3rd era books. Not to say I disliked the third era, it was fine, just the D20 system of games made Table Top RPGs a lot more interesting than just D&D. Which is why Hasbro has tried repeatedly to kill it, too late Hasbro.
4th ed... meh.
5th ok D&D got gud. Mystic UA was fine, as a DM I would allow it, if you have a decent Backstory.
Or we can just leave psionics in the dutbin of history, like race classes, percentile strength and THAC0.
Dustbin. And sorry to bust your bubble, but psionics has been a major part of D&D lore and gameplay from the Beginning. Also there are plenty of ways to play a psionic in 5e without having to use the Mystic class, or make a new Psionic class. Is there room for a Psionic class, yes, the real issue is, and you see this with the Mystic UA, it can do melee, tank, heal, ranged, and caster roles making it the Jack of all roles Class. And unlike the Druid or Monk it does them all really well.
To be honest few people did the math, they looked at the tables. And it was usually the DM who used the Tables, so that meant the screen was used more for the tables and less about hiding dice rolls.
even some out of the blue AD&D5e magic overhaul wouldn't bring back 2e psionics as a single class. are we really holding out for that or would a splat book with some "new" spells based on old psionic powers be enough?
as it is, they'll continue to handle 5e psionics in subclasses and feats because there's no overhauling the magic system that way. no upsetting the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Mystic was almost a thing, it failed not because it was broken, but because it was a jack of all trades class. Every Subclass of the mystic became a Subclass for the other classes, and the mystic was probably used to create the Artificer Class.
You don't need to overhaul anything to have psionics in 5e, as psionics is already here and playable.
Doesn’t the Sorcerer fill the need for a character whose powers are all mental? Just select the right spells and cantrips; Telekinesis, Mage Hand, Detect Thoughts, Jump, Magic Missile, etc. and use the Metamagics which free you from needing spell components.
The one thing I miss is the Psionic Warrior from 3e. I feel that that’s how Monks should be done.
Aberrant Mind - is the Sorcerer psion
The current also the Monk class uses Ki points, you should read up on PSP (Psionic Strength Points) it's basically the ancient ancestor of the current Ki point system. Yes it should be updated, and 5.5 (D&D 2024) should fix it... hopefully, crosses fingers, prays to Asmodeus and Jeremy Crawford, please make monks gud.
They've got prerequisite feats in Strixhaven, Dragonlance, and Planescape. The last playtest warlock had some too, by turning the pacts into invocations. I don't remember 4e character gen that well, since I only DMed it, but IIRC there was some of that going on. (Or maybe only at the larger scale of paragon paths and epic destinies.)
(And anything pre-3e, you didn't really have any choices to make in terms of powers. Weapon specialization requiring proficiency in 2e doesn't really count. (I also never used kits, so remember no details about them.))
But yes, they mostly work by level-gating features in 5e. But that doesn't make it anathema.
I don't see why.
Literally all of the settings you are citing right now come with inherent power imbalances and/or pigeonholing.
A lot of the problem with psi is that magic doesn't have enough limitations, so you wind up being "I'm like a wizard, only worse". Fix the extreme jack-of-all-trades of current spellcasters, and a lot of the issues vanish.
Eh, you’re still somewhere between reinventing the wheel and building a better mousetrap. Truly alternative magic systems are good for stories where the pros and cons are plot points, but for games that desire more or less parity of utility it’s a particularly circuitous route to what would at best be near identical results, imo.
i could see a feat for certain (classes of) characters that develop psionics later: [level 4 barbarian, monk, sorcerer, warlock, or fighter] - as an Action begin concentrating. roll 1d4: while concentrating, add the number rolled + INT mod to your next skill check. if the number rolled is greater than the user's INT mod, then this action requires a rest to recharge.
if i had more time (and a bigger screen) I'd split this into different feats grouping certain skills based on separate disciplines: body augmentation (athletics, stealth), information gathering (survival, history), mind stuff (persuade, intimidate), etc. psionics isn't complete with only telepathy and telekinetics.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
For games that desire more or less parity of utility the existing magic system is utterly horrible and a large component of the martial/caster disparity.
You don't need to add anything to it. There is no need to create a new system or argue for int or any of that you just say that it's psionics if you want to make psionics a thing.
I wasn’t speaking in terms of martials and casters, I was speaking in terms of Magic A and Magic B.
My point is that you can't introduce a new system while leaving the old one in place; you have to remove the old one, because most of the problems are caused by the old system.
So now we're overhauling the extent magic system and creating a whole new one on top of it?
I hated psionics in 2e. it was just magic but better because you couldn't detect it or dispel it. The limited classes of the 3/3.5e soul knife and psi warrior, IMO, were better. I would be hesitant to include psionics that was treated different than other magic in any game I was in.
I started playing D&D from the basic box set in 1979.
No, we're cramming psionics into the extant magic system. The point is, if you want a new system... it's gotta be a new system that applies to everything, because otherwise it's just going to be a poor second fiddle to the extant magic system.
Or we can just leave psionics in the dutbin of history, like race classes, percentile strength and THAC0.
THAC0 was great. It taught math. ;)
I started playing D&D from the basic box set in 1979.
The funny thing is that THAC0 was actually an improvement over what came before. A necessary step forward, but not one to go back to, ever.
I remember those charts in 1E. Glad that's over.
That's what I was saying.
even some out of the blue AD&D5e magic overhaul wouldn't bring back 2e psionics as a single class. are we really holding out for that or would a splat book with some "new" spells based on old psionic powers be enough?
as it is, they'll continue to handle 5e psionics in subclasses and feats because there's no overhauling the magic system that way. no upsetting the goose that lays the golden eggs.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Doesn’t the Sorcerer fill the need for a character whose powers are all mental? Just select the right spells and cantrips; Telekinesis, Mage Hand, Detect Thoughts, Jump, Magic Missile, etc. and use the Metamagics which free you from needing spell components.
The one thing I miss is the Psionic Warrior from 3e. I feel that that’s how Monks should be done.
There is a psi warrior in 5e. It's not going to be 1:1 with it's predecessor but that's honestly a good thing given how 3rd was honestly terrible from a class design/balance standpoint.
Also You can just as easily argue that the paladin or hexblade is psionic if you need a MIND POWERZ MAN1!1 swinging a sword around.
Awful, yes, but so was every class in it's own way. 1st, 2nd, AD&D the whole era was filled with inconsistent bad mechanics and gameplay. Every class had it's own XP table, Humans could do anything, everyone else was limited in both level and classes.
I said this Here: My comments about 5e psionics.
Small list of Psionics already in the game, there is more.
Wild Magic is psionics from AD&D, most of your charm spells, and many of your Force damage type spells.
So Wild Magic Barbarian is technically a Psionic Subclass Monk's Ki points are basically an improved version of the AD&D PSP system, all Monks are Psions
Aberrant Mind is from the Mystic UA the 5e UA for a psionic class.
Warlocks can easily be flavored psionic esp Great Old one. As some people have Systems ie more than one mind occupying the same body, you could RP the Warlock as taking the Pact from the Psionic half of their mind. Kalashtar work well with this.
Psi-Warrior from the Mystic class, Echo-Knight and Eldritch-Knight also work with the psionic theme.
Soul-Knife came from the Mystic, and you can theme a few other Rogues as Psionic.
A bunch of feats... besides the obvious. Telepathic& Telekinetic. The dragon themed feats (Gift of the Gem Dragon, Aberrant Dragonmark), any of the Magic Initiate feats all feel very psionic awaking to me.
AD&D = No, it was not magic back then. It was an overly complicated mess, it was both over powered and self destructive at the same time. It did a few good ideas ie one of the fist Mana systems for table top RPGs. It was however horribly designed, and impossible to build a truly powerful build with it. You also had two Abilities which were both game breaking in wording and could just as easily backfire. Yet most DMs never read the mishap rules on Psionics as they basically created a 10% chance of Total Party Kill if the Psion used Disintegrate or Detonate. Meanwhile the rest of the Abilities basically became situational feats you could buy per fight. Which was honestly great, but everyone focused on the two OP abilities.
3rd era I was running a Game Store back then, and honestly I was more impressed with Star Wars D20 than any of the other 3rd era books. Not to say I disliked the third era, it was fine, just the D20 system of games made Table Top RPGs a lot more interesting than just D&D. Which is why Hasbro has tried repeatedly to kill it, too late Hasbro.
4th ed... meh.
5th ok D&D got gud. Mystic UA was fine, as a DM I would allow it, if you have a decent Backstory.
Dustbin. And sorry to bust your bubble, but psionics has been a major part of D&D lore and gameplay from the Beginning. Also there are plenty of ways to play a psionic in 5e without having to use the Mystic class, or make a new Psionic class. Is there room for a Psionic class, yes, the real issue is, and you see this with the Mystic UA, it can do melee, tank, heal, ranged, and caster roles making it the Jack of all roles Class. And unlike the Druid or Monk it does them all really well.
To be honest few people did the math, they looked at the tables. And it was usually the DM who used the Tables, so that meant the screen was used more for the tables and less about hiding dice rolls.
Mystic was almost a thing, it failed not because it was broken, but because it was a jack of all trades class. Every Subclass of the mystic became a Subclass for the other classes, and the mystic was probably used to create the Artificer Class.
You don't need to overhaul anything to have psionics in 5e, as psionics is already here and playable.
Aberrant Mind - is the Sorcerer psion
The current also the Monk class uses Ki points, you should read up on PSP (Psionic Strength Points) it's basically the ancient ancestor of the current Ki point system. Yes it should be updated, and 5.5 (D&D 2024) should fix it... hopefully, crosses fingers, prays to Asmodeus and Jeremy Crawford, please make monks gud.