As for what I want out of the 5e improvements: .... - This is more of a formatting and presentation issue than any change in mechanics, but I think it would be nice if monster statblocks and character sheets are formatted ideally the same way, or at least more similarly. I think the familiarity would better help players transition to being a GM. I also think having a unified streamlined format on NPCs and PCs will make it easier on digital companies to implement homebrew. Right now, some people on Beyond want a tool to convert character sheets to statblocks, and that whole issue can be avoided in the first place if statblocks and character sheets have the same format foundation, so instead of Beyond having to develop a character sheet, monster statblock, and eventually a sidekick system, Beyond would just be implementing one statsheet or whatever you want to call it, and the player version of the statsheet would basically be just a variation of what the GM has access to.
The issue with this is that a character sheet has a lot of information on it that a DM simply doesn't need in order to run a monster/NPC. Like, a lot a lot. The average character sheet takes up several pages; a properly concise monster block can be written out on a single 3x5 index card. The players need all that extra information to play their characters; the DM needs all of none of it to run a critter. That's why the distinction arose in the first place. The only reason people want a "Character to NPC" tool is because Beyond made it much easier to create character sheets than to create monster stat blocks, and frankly even that's not really true. The monster creator is actually by far the easiest of the various homebrew tools on DDB to use, it takes only an hour or two of practice to figure out how it all works and get to cranking out critters to vex your murderhobos with. I've stopped using character sheets as NPC stand-ins entirely; if the NPC needs a statblock at all for my games (tip for DMs: most NPCs do not, at all, need a statblock of any sort) it gets a monster block, not a character sheet.
- I am not a fan of the class system, so I want a progression system more free form and flexible. One of the perks of being a GM is that you have complete freedom in designing your NPCs, and one of the factors that discourages me from being a player is the rigid class system and level limit.
D&D is class-based. Always has been, likely always will be. For me at least it won't be D&D anymore if that's no longer true. I see the downsides too, I understand why people prefer other progression systems, I enjoy those myself - but for D&D to be D&D, it has to be class-based.
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I feel like the roleplaying devotees of D and D have not only seized control of the game I love so much, but they have also grabbed control of the narrative of its history and warped it to support their emphasis on roleplaying and eschewing of combat focus - posts like "well, D and D IS a roleplaying game after all" and "maybe you should play a dungeon crawl board game instead." For many of us that grew up along with D and D, that is just NOT paying homage to the traditions of D and D.
Let me start with: I've been playing since 1979, so I too played with the little brown books.
And with those little brown books we still had roleplaying and story. There were relationships and complex plots. There was exploration, which seems to be forgotten by everyone. Plus plenty of killing, of course.
Don't mistake your style of play for the only style of play in D&D's deep past. D&D's role players came from somewhere. They didn't just spring into existence with the publication of 5e.
Personally, I want all three pillars of D&D (combat, exploration, roleplaying) to be important to D&D again. If all three are well supported, each group is free to include as much or as little as they want, without feeling that they've been left out.
As for what I want out of the 5e improvements: .... - This is more of a formatting and presentation issue than any change in mechanics, but I think it would be nice if monster statblocks and character sheets are formatted ideally the same way, or at least more similarly. I think the familiarity would better help players transition to being a GM. I also think having a unified streamlined format on NPCs and PCs will make it easier on digital companies to implement homebrew. Right now, some people on Beyond want a tool to convert character sheets to statblocks, and that whole issue can be avoided in the first place if statblocks and character sheets have the same format foundation, so instead of Beyond having to develop a character sheet, monster statblock, and eventually a sidekick system, Beyond would just be implementing one statsheet or whatever you want to call it, and the player version of the statsheet would basically be just a variation of what the GM has access to.
The issue with this is that a character sheet has a lot of information on it that a DM simply doesn't need in order to run a monster/NPC. Like, a lot a lot. The average character sheet takes up several pages; a properly concise monster block can be written out on a single 3x5 index card. The players need all that extra information to play their characters; the DM needs all of none of it to run a critter. That's why the distinction arose in the first place. The only reason people want a "Character to NPC" tool is because Beyond made it much easier to create character sheets than to create monster stat blocks, and frankly even that's not really true. The monster creator is actually by far the easiest of the various homebrew tools on DDB to use, it takes only an hour or two of practice to figure out how it all works and get to cranking out critters to vex your murderhobos with. I've stopped using character sheets as NPC stand-ins entirely; if the NPC needs a statblock at all for my games (tip for DMs: most NPCs do not, at all, need a statblock of any sort) it gets a monster block, not a character sheet.
It has different info too. PCs don't have lair actions for instance, and monsters can have standard tactics they'll usually employ or specific behaviours that you wouldn't want to restrict a PC with. And I certainly don't need DDB's character sheet rules implementations for my monsters and NPCs, I want to just be able to give those what I want them to have without any fuss or having to work around technicalities. It's much more easy and convenient to treat PCs and NPCs/monsters as completely different entities.
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I wlll say, Gamma, that while Pangurjan is right in that D&D is a class-based system and always will be, I wouldn't at all mind them backing off on trying to excise feats from the game and introducing more points in all classes where you could make non-class decisions for your character. Ways and means to make your character yours, rather than every single goblin rogue in all of D&D being exactly and completely identical in every respect. if Pathfinder can do it, so can D&D.
- I think it is impossible to get rid of the fuzziness of CR and baseline balance, but having it be less fuzzy would be nice for GMs who prefer something more tight and snug. I do not think it is super important since you can always adjust difficulty mid combat with reinforcements, fudging rolls, deus ex machina, and various other tools at the GM's disposal, but in terms of homebrew, it is a good idea to know how far you are diverging from the baseline.
I've been thinking about this and I'm not convinced that there is much that can be done. Low levels are highly dependent on rolls, and high levels are highly dependent on optimisation. A few recent examples of my experience:
Yeah, I am not sure how you would even begin to balance things without making it too complicated for casual GMs to use. Factoring damage and bulk is a nice start from the CR rules, but it feels woefully inadequate when you account for stuff like mobility, engagement range, stealth, various ways of neutralizing targets before they die, etc. that kind of make damage and bulk irrelevant to gauge difficulty. For example, if you can engage at a distance that the enemy cannot counter attack and you are fast enough to maintain that distance, the damage of the enemy is irrelevant and their bulk is as meaningful as a punching bag, and your own bulk is completely irrelevant and your damage output only matters if you need to kill something quickly.
I wlll say, Gamma, that while Pangurjan is right in that D&D is a class-based system and always will be, I wouldn't at all mind them backing off on trying to excise feats from the game and introducing more points in all classes where you could make non-class decisions for your character. Ways and means to make your character yours, rather than every single goblin rogue in all of D&D being exactly and completely identical in every respect. if Pathfinder can do it, so can D&D.
Pathfinder is also class-based, after all, and really still D&D under another name. ;-) I'm certainly not against have more creative choices and options all throughout a character's lifespan - on the contrary, bring them on - but the class structure has to stay.
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"Minsc's Guide to Baldur's Gate", basically Minsc's hometown now. Plus, it would be a "return to a setting we've seen before" or a "return to a classic setting", and as there's both Baldur's Gate III and a MtG Commander set known as "Battle for Baldur's Gate" (coincidence that it shares its name with an expansion for the other game Dungeon Madness? I think not) coming out next year, this could be a thing, and if so it would be a very different book "format" for WotC. However, it's still a stretch. BUT I WANT THE STRETCH TO BE TAKEN! FIND ME A BALDUR'S GATE BEHOLDER! Gimme just that city! I'd be happy forever.... Well, no, but...
Is the Gazeteer in Descent into Avernus not good enough for you? I mean that book has a pretty comprehensive map of the city, and the gazetteer is actually richer more immersive I'd argue than the info it provides on Avernus. I've had whole campaign arcs build out of the random encounter tables for the different parts of the city. It's probably the most enriched setting outside of maybe Waterdeep in 5e, though I feel BG is presented in DiA in a way that gives even first level parties a vision that they can actually make "the big time" there. It's a great setting already published.
Anyway because of BG:DitA I just don't see Baldur's Gate getting a book on its own, too redundant. Maybe if Minsc's planar adventures use BG as a starting point, they might give some new update to the setting post Ravengard's presumed return from Hell, it's geopolitical place after the Elturel crisis etc.
"Minsc's Guide to Baldur's Gate", basically Minsc's hometown now. Plus, it would be a "return to a setting we've seen before" or a "return to a classic setting", and as there's both Baldur's Gate III and a MtG Commander set known as "Battle for Baldur's Gate" (coincidence that it shares its name with an expansion for the other game Dungeon Madness? I think not) coming out next year, this could be a thing, and if so it would be a very different book "format" for WotC. However, it's still a stretch. BUT I WANT THE STRETCH TO BE TAKEN! FIND ME A BALDUR'S GATE BEHOLDER! Gimme just that city! I'd be happy forever.... Well, no, but...
Is the Gazeteer in Descent into Avernus not good enough for you? I mean that book has a pretty comprehensive map of the city, and the gazetteer is actually richer more immersive I'd argue than the info it provides on Avernus. I've had whole campaign arcs build out of the random encounter tables for the different parts of the city.
Anyway because of BG:DitA I just don't see Baldur's Gate getting a book on its own, too redundant. Maybe if Minsc's planar adventures use BG as a starting point, they might give some new update to the setting post Ravengard's presumed return from Hell, it's geopolitical place after the Elturel crisis etc.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
- I like having more optional rules that you can tack on or off so groups more easily make things more complex if they wish.
- I do not like how the DMG deemphasizes downtime activities and treats them as something that does not deserve the same amount of attention as "real adventures", and I think that is a HUGE missed opportunity. In my opininion, D&D has an issue with overwhelming focus on combat, and many downtime activities are not only great hooks, they can be full on adventures and fun diversions in their own right where there is little to no combat.
- I think it is impossible to get rid of the fuzziness of CR and baseline balance, but having it be less fuzzy would be nice for GMs who prefer something more tight and snug. I do not think it is super important since you can always adjust difficulty mid combat with reinforcements, fudging rolls, deus ex machina, and various other tools at the GM's disposal, but in terms of homebrew, it is a good idea to know how far you are diverging from the baseline.
- I am not a fan of the class system, so I want a progression system more free form and flexible. One of the perks of being a GM is that you have complete freedom in designing your NPCs, and one of the factors that discourages me from being a player is the rigid class system and level limit.
- This is more of a formatting and presentation issue than any change in mechanics, but I think it would be nice if monster statblocks and character sheets are formatted ideally the same way, or at least more similarly. I think the familiarity would better help players transition to being a GM. I also think having a unified streamlined format on NPCs and PCs will make it easier on digital companies to implement homebrew. Right now, some people on Beyond want a tool to convert character sheets to statblocks, and that whole issue can be avoided in the first place if statblocks and character sheets have the same format foundation, so instead of Beyond having to develop a character sheet, monster statblock, and eventually a sidekick system, Beyond would just be implementing one statsheet or whatever you want to call it, and the player version of the statsheet would basically be just a variation of what the GM has access to.
I could see some of that happening, like expanding on downtime and more optional rules etc.
I don't think the class structure is going to change though. That would be too big of a change for an update to 5E. That would have to be a full on 6E, if they ever went that direction at all.
I feel like it's more important to have that structure on the player end than the npc end. The DM controls everything but the players, they can mold encounter difficulty etc. They can add an NPC that does whatever that NPC needs to for the story etc. But if you allow that freedom on the PC end, the game starts to lose cohesion as an actual game. In a freeform RP deciding what your character can and can't do freely is fine, so long as everyone infolved is a team player and on the same wavelength. If you gave players anywhere near the level of freedom a DM has in building an NPC, I feel like the game part of D&D would start to fall apart fast. Multiclassing is probably the most you can really go in that direction without losing too much structure.
For me, if they have an optional rule to remove the level limit and restrictions on "multiclassing" into the same class and subclass (e.g.: Chronurgy divination wizard, undying undead warlock, genie warlock with all four genie patrons, draconic bloodlinie sorcerer with ancestry from all ten types of dragons), I think I would be satisfied and feel free enough that I do not have to bend over backwards to fit a character concept into narrowly defined subclass boxes.
- I am not a fan of the class system, so I want a progression system more free form and flexible. One of the perks of being a GM is that you have complete freedom in designing your NPCs, and one of the factors that discourages me from being a player is the rigid class system and level limit.
D&D is class-based. Always has been, likely always will be. For me at least it won't be D&D anymore if that's no longer true. I see the downsides too, I understand why people prefer other progression systems, I enjoy those myself - but for D&D to be D&D, it has to be class-based.
..whereas I would prefer a more rigid class system. :) I'm not a huge fan of how, in 5E, so many classes/subclasses get spellcasting. How many variants there are of being a healer. And so forth. With my background as an old school gamer, so much of 5E's class system seems designed to minimize the differences between the classes, up to and including feats (which, yes, are optional) that allow for even more bleedover.
However, I know I'm most definitely in the minority in this, and it's just not the way the game or audience is going.
As for what I want out of the 5e improvements: .... - This is more of a formatting and presentation issue than any change in mechanics, but I think it would be nice if monster statblocks and character sheets are formatted ideally the same way, or at least more similarly. I think the familiarity would better help players transition to being a GM. I also think having a unified streamlined format on NPCs and PCs will make it easier on digital companies to implement homebrew. Right now, some people on Beyond want a tool to convert character sheets to statblocks, and that whole issue can be avoided in the first place if statblocks and character sheets have the same format foundation, so instead of Beyond having to develop a character sheet, monster statblock, and eventually a sidekick system, Beyond would just be implementing one statsheet or whatever you want to call it, and the player version of the statsheet would basically be just a variation of what the GM has access to.
The issue with this is that a character sheet has a lot of information on it that a DM simply doesn't need in order to run a monster/NPC. Like, a lot a lot. The average character sheet takes up several pages; a properly concise monster block can be written out on a single 3x5 index card. The players need all that extra information to play their characters; the DM needs all of none of it to run a critter. That's why the distinction arose in the first place. The only reason people want a "Character to NPC" tool is because Beyond made it much easier to create character sheets than to create monster stat blocks, and frankly even that's not really true. The monster creator is actually by far the easiest of the various homebrew tools on DDB to use, it takes only an hour or two of practice to figure out how it all works and get to cranking out critters to vex your murderhobos with. I've stopped using character sheets as NPC stand-ins entirely; if the NPC needs a statblock at all for my games (tip for DMs: most NPCs do not, at all, need a statblock of any sort) it gets a monster block, not a character sheet.
Monster stat blocks and character sheets share a lot in common: - AC, HP, Speed - Six core stats - Skills - Resistance and Immunity - Senses - Languages - Proficiency Bonus The presentation of these things should be presented in a common unified format in my opinion.
Features and actions between monsters and PCs are not that much different each other either, and the main difference is that PCs have a lot more features and actions. This can easily be accounted for by just having additional pages, which should not affect the overall format.
The only other difference is that PCs have inventory and backstory pages, which again should not affect the overall format if you just put it at the back. While I do not think GMs will need an inventory page for their NPCs, I can certainly see GMs wanting a backstory page for more unique and special NPCs.
- I am not a fan of the class system, so I want a progression system more free form and flexible. One of the perks of being a GM is that you have complete freedom in designing your NPCs, and one of the factors that discourages me from being a player is the rigid class system and level limit.
D&D is class-based. Always has been, likely always will be. For me at least it won't be D&D anymore if that's no longer true. I see the downsides too, I understand why people prefer other progression systems, I enjoy those myself - but for D&D to be D&D, it has to be class-based.
I just want an optional rule or some kind mechanic to recognize that there are people want a more free form system. It does not have to be perfect, as Custom Lineage is far from that, but having those kinds of free form options available is what makes customization fun, and it makes D&D more personal. People do not have to bend and twist their vision of their characters as much to fit them into preset race-subclass molds.
For me, the easiest way to do implement that is to have an optional rule that removes level limits and allowing multiclassing into the same class and subclass.
As for what I want out of the 5e improvements: .... - This is more of a formatting and presentation issue than any change in mechanics, but I think it would be nice if monster statblocks and character sheets are formatted ideally the same way, or at least more similarly. I think the familiarity would better help players transition to being a GM. I also think having a unified streamlined format on NPCs and PCs will make it easier on digital companies to implement homebrew. Right now, some people on Beyond want a tool to convert character sheets to statblocks, and that whole issue can be avoided in the first place if statblocks and character sheets have the same format foundation, so instead of Beyond having to develop a character sheet, monster statblock, and eventually a sidekick system, Beyond would just be implementing one statsheet or whatever you want to call it, and the player version of the statsheet would basically be just a variation of what the GM has access to.
The issue with this is that a character sheet has a lot of information on it that a DM simply doesn't need in order to run a monster/NPC. Like, a lot a lot. The average character sheet takes up several pages; a properly concise monster block can be written out on a single 3x5 index card. The players need all that extra information to play their characters; the DM needs all of none of it to run a critter. That's why the distinction arose in the first place. The only reason people want a "Character to NPC" tool is because Beyond made it much easier to create character sheets than to create monster stat blocks, and frankly even that's not really true. The monster creator is actually by far the easiest of the various homebrew tools on DDB to use, it takes only an hour or two of practice to figure out how it all works and get to cranking out critters to vex your murderhobos with. I've stopped using character sheets as NPC stand-ins entirely; if the NPC needs a statblock at all for my games (tip for DMs: most NPCs do not, at all, need a statblock of any sort) it gets a monster block, not a character sheet.
It has different info too. PCs don't have lair actions for instance, and monsters can have standard tactics they'll usually employ or specific behaviours that you wouldn't want to restrict a PC with. And I certainly don't need DDB's character sheet rules implementations for my monsters and NPCs, I want to just be able to give those what I want them to have without any fuss or having to work around technicalities. It's much more easy and convenient to treat PCs and NPCs/monsters as completely different entities.
I do not think it is too difficult to have a unified format that can account for the differences. Creatures with Lair or Legendary Actions already would not easily fit in a 3 by 5 card anyways, and you can just put that stuff in the space where PCs would put their class features, feats, and all that other stuff.
Monster stat blocks and character sheets share a lot in common: - AC, HP, Speed - Six core stats - Skills - Resistance and Immunity - Senses - Languages - Proficiency Bonus The presentation of these things should be presented in a common unified format in my opinion.
Features and actions between monsters and PCs are not that much different each other either, and the main difference is that PCs have a lot more features and actions. This can easily be accounted for by just having additional pages, which should not affect the overall format.
The only other difference is that PCs have inventory and backstory pages, which again should not affect the overall format if you just put it at the back. While I do not think GMs will need an inventory page for their NPCs, I can certainly see GMs wanting a backstory page for more unique and special NPCs.
You're trying to make data/information dictate form, but you're forgetting function. The use of data and information differs greatly, I'd even say literally dramatically, between a PC a monster/npc, and thus are organized differently. A PC character sheet is designed to manage a character during encounters and facilitate the player developing the character over the course of the game, the nature of its use is inherently dynamic. A stat block has the static duty of DMs reference for an encounter. It encapsulates the monster (and NPCs mechanically speaking are monsters) for an instance within the game. I know a lot of folks take their favorite NPCs and de facto DMPC them by tracking their level development etc. ... and I mean if a DM wants NPC building to be their own mini game hobby, fill out those character sheets, though there are better ways for a DM to spend their time for the their game's benefit. Realistically though, and on the frankly work smarter not harder level, it's just more efficient and enabling for the DM to just develop another stat block for the next iteration of the NPC/monster if enough has occurred in game warranting such growth. Building encounters out character sheets shifts the focus to working with the sheet and not the monster builder that shifts the focus to the game.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Monster stat blocks and character sheets share a lot in common: - AC, HP, Speed - Six core stats - Skills - Resistance and Immunity - Senses - Languages - Proficiency Bonus The presentation of these things should be presented in a common unified format in my opinion.
Features and actions between monsters and PCs are not that much different each other either, and the main difference is that PCs have a lot more features and actions. This can easily be accounted for by just having additional pages, which should not affect the overall format.
The only other difference is that PCs have inventory and backstory pages, which again should not affect the overall format if you just put it at the back. While I do not think GMs will need an inventory page for their NPCs, I can certainly see GMs wanting a backstory page for more unique and special NPCs.
You're trying to make data/information dictate form, but you're forgetting function. The use of data and information differs greatly, I'd even say literally dramatically, between a PC a monster/npc, and thus are organized differently. A PC character sheet is designed to manage a character during encounters and facilitate the player developing the character over the course of the game, the nature of its use is inherently dynamic. A stat block has the static duty of DMs reference for an encounter. It encapsulates the monster (and NPCs mechanically speaking are monsters) for an instance within the game. I know a lot of folks take their favorite NPCs and de facto DMPC them by tracking their level development etc. ... and I mean if a DM wants NPC building to be their own mini game hobby, fill out those character sheets, though there are better ways for a DM to spend their time for the their game's benefit. Realistically though, and on the frankly work smarter not harder level, it's just more efficient and enabling for the DM to just develop another stat block for the next iteration of the NPC/monster if enough has occurred in game warranting such growth. Building encounters out character sheets shifts the focus to working with the sheet and not the monster builder that shifts the focus to the game.
I do not think GMs and players use their character sheets and statblocks that differently. Players have no issue running statblocks as their characters, with the only minor change that might be necessary is to expand the skill section to list all proficiencies. The only issue with GMs running current character sheets is that there is not enough room on the table or screen due to how things are spaced apart.
- I do not like how the DMG deemphasizes downtime activities and treats them as something that does not deserve the same amount of attention as "real adventures", and I think that is a HUGE missed opportunity. In my opininion, D&D has an issue with overwhelming focus on combat, and many downtime activities are not only great hooks, they can be full on adventures and fun diversions in their own right where there is little to no combat.
I absolutely agree with you but I think that DMs can actually make their adventures more focused on downtime activities if they want and even with this 5e, they can make a great adventure that's not centred around combat.
I think whatever comes out in 2024 will be minor changes/updates at most. With the current edition, WOTC got what they wanted with 4th Ed., a subscription supported rpg system. Right now, they have licensing agreements with fandom, roll20, and fantasy grounds for full content. They get some percentage of each product sale, too.
New editions come out when sales need to be juiced. With a consistent revenue steam, why risk alienating a player base that put out over $800 for content plus subscription revenues? As far as an in house vtt, why outlay internal cost to reinvent the wheel when you can just collect licensing fees? The more likely thing to happen over the next two years is moving from in house development to contractors. That will probably begin to happen as WOTC misses Hasbro targets tied to matching pandemic performance.
I don’t mean to paint a bleak picture, but this is the most likely scenario to play out. Of course, this assumes Hasbro/WOTC does the smartest thing and history has shown that doesn’t always happen.
I do not think GMs and players use their character sheets and statblocks that differently. Players have no issue running statblocks as their characters, with the only minor change that might be necessary is to expand the skill section to list all proficiencies. The only issue with GMs running current character sheets is that there is not enough room on the table or screen due to how things are spaced apart.
As someone who's a player and a GM, I absolutely use the sheets in different ways. I want and need my character sheet to be complete and fully detailed. I want to understand and be able to find all of my options - because I am only running that one character.
As a GM, I am running MULTIPLE monsters (meant inclusively, including NPCs) throughout the gaming session, and therefore need something more streamlined, something that can be skimmed and consistently formatted, so I can make multiple decisions on the fly throughout encounters, combat or otherwise.
I am very much against making player and monster stat blocks the same. I don't use them the same way or need them to give me the same amount of information.
I do not think GMs and players use their character sheets and statblocks that differently. Players have no issue running statblocks as their characters, with the only minor change that might be necessary is to expand the skill section to list all proficiencies. The only issue with GMs running current character sheets is that there is not enough room on the table or screen due to how things are spaced apart.
As someone who's a player and a GM, I absolutely use the sheets in different ways. I want and need my character sheet to be complete and fully detailed. I want to understand and be able to find all of my options - because I am only running that one character.
As a GM, I am running MULTIPLE monsters (meant inclusively, including NPCs) throughout the gaming session, and therefore need something more streamlined, something that can be skimmed and consistently formatted, so I can make multiple decisions on the fly throughout encounters, combat or otherwise.
I am very much against making player and monster stat blocks the same. I don't use them the same way or need them to give me the same amount of information.
I use them the same way, and I pay attention to the same exact key stats as the players. I think it is possible to create a format that is streamlined and detailed with better organization and page modularity.
Monster stat blocks already present the following key statistics in a compact format that PCs can use too: - AC, HP, Speed (this can be expanded out a bit to include temp HP and death saves) - Six core stats - Skills and Saving Throws (PCs can just expand this out to include everything) - Resistance and Immunity - Senses - Languages (PCs can shove tools into this section too) - Proficiency Bonus Even when you expand certain sections out for PCs, it will still take up less than a quarter of a page, and the rest of the page can be filled with actions and features.
Compared to the real character sheet, that leaves equipment and personality-bonds-ideals-flaws, and honestly those things can move to a different page. Personality-bonds-ideals-flaws should be moved to a different page since I do not think players need constant reminders on what how their characters act and think, and on the real character sheet itself, removal of that section gives more room to features and traits, and that section right not is so sorely small for high level characters who may have multiclassed and have several feats under their belt.
The second page would be for spells, maneuvers, elemental disciplines, and other features that have a lot of suboptions. I do not think most NPCs need this page as even the highest level NPC spellcaster can fit all their spells with their other features on the first page, and NPCs certainly do not have to deal with and keep track of maneuvers or meta magic options.
The third page could be for equipment and inventory. Most NPCs can skip this page too since I do not think most GMs have their monsters lug around large piles of loot, but party controlled sidekicks and beasts of burden might want one to serve as the party mule.
The fourth page could be for lore and fluff, so appearance, personality-bonds-ideals-flaws, backstory, allies & organizations, and all that juicy role playing stuff can fit here. Most NPCs do not need this either, but GMs would certainly want this section for more unique and special NPCs, like sidekicks and villains.
5e, on the other hand, has unquestionably been hijacked and seized by the rpgers
Again, you're treating the game like some kind of holy writ that should be inviolate and, if changed, was done so by heretical forces - rather than an actual game that's ultimately produced to make a profit, and thereby needs to adapt to changing audience wants and needs.
The game is a living game. It changes and evolves with the times and players' wants and expectations. Again, I come from old school roots: I started playing AD&D in 1981. I'm not at all unaware or blind to the changes in the game since then. But that's all they are: changes. It's not a perversion or harmful mutating of the game. Just as the way films and television shows have changed how they tell stories since the 1970s, other forms of entertainment have also adapted and changed with the audience/targeted consumer.
It's pretty funny to read your wail of dismay at the corruption of the game at the hands of RPers while also having read for the last several years other people across the Web bemoaning how heavily 5E is weighted towards combat in terms of gameplay and encounter resolution. I wrote above and repeat: 5E is a remarkably flexible and malleable system. It would be very easy to houserule/adjust for the kind of game you want it to be. Heck, I've thought about imposing 1E-like racial class restrictions and even ability score limits (I personally find the idea of a halfling with an 18 strength, let alone a 20, fairly ridiculous).
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The issue with this is that a character sheet has a lot of information on it that a DM simply doesn't need in order to run a monster/NPC. Like, a lot a lot. The average character sheet takes up several pages; a properly concise monster block can be written out on a single 3x5 index card. The players need all that extra information to play their characters; the DM needs all of none of it to run a critter. That's why the distinction arose in the first place. The only reason people want a "Character to NPC" tool is because Beyond made it much easier to create character sheets than to create monster stat blocks, and frankly even that's not really true. The monster creator is actually by far the easiest of the various homebrew tools on DDB to use, it takes only an hour or two of practice to figure out how it all works and get to cranking out critters to vex your murderhobos with. I've stopped using character sheets as NPC stand-ins entirely; if the NPC needs a statblock at all for my games (tip for DMs: most NPCs do not, at all, need a statblock of any sort) it gets a monster block, not a character sheet.
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D&D is class-based. Always has been, likely always will be. For me at least it won't be D&D anymore if that's no longer true. I see the downsides too, I understand why people prefer other progression systems, I enjoy those myself - but for D&D to be D&D, it has to be class-based.
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Let me start with: I've been playing since 1979, so I too played with the little brown books.
And with those little brown books we still had roleplaying and story. There were relationships and complex plots. There was exploration, which seems to be forgotten by everyone. Plus plenty of killing, of course.
Don't mistake your style of play for the only style of play in D&D's deep past. D&D's role players came from somewhere. They didn't just spring into existence with the publication of 5e.
Personally, I want all three pillars of D&D (combat, exploration, roleplaying) to be important to D&D again. If all three are well supported, each group is free to include as much or as little as they want, without feeling that they've been left out.
It has different info too. PCs don't have lair actions for instance, and monsters can have standard tactics they'll usually employ or specific behaviours that you wouldn't want to restrict a PC with. And I certainly don't need DDB's character sheet rules implementations for my monsters and NPCs, I want to just be able to give those what I want them to have without any fuss or having to work around technicalities. It's much more easy and convenient to treat PCs and NPCs/monsters as completely different entities.
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I wlll say, Gamma, that while Pangurjan is right in that D&D is a class-based system and always will be, I wouldn't at all mind them backing off on trying to excise feats from the game and introducing more points in all classes where you could make non-class decisions for your character. Ways and means to make your character yours, rather than every single goblin rogue in all of D&D being exactly and completely identical in every respect. if Pathfinder can do it, so can D&D.
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Yeah, I am not sure how you would even begin to balance things without making it too complicated for casual GMs to use. Factoring damage and bulk is a nice start from the CR rules, but it feels woefully inadequate when you account for stuff like mobility, engagement range, stealth, various ways of neutralizing targets before they die, etc. that kind of make damage and bulk irrelevant to gauge difficulty. For example, if you can engage at a distance that the enemy cannot counter attack and you are fast enough to maintain that distance, the damage of the enemy is irrelevant and their bulk is as meaningful as a punching bag, and your own bulk is completely irrelevant and your damage output only matters if you need to kill something quickly.
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Pathfinder is also class-based, after all, and really still D&D under another name. ;-) I'm certainly not against have more creative choices and options all throughout a character's lifespan - on the contrary, bring them on - but the class structure has to stay.
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Is the Gazeteer in Descent into Avernus not good enough for you? I mean that book has a pretty comprehensive map of the city, and the gazetteer is actually richer more immersive I'd argue than the info it provides on Avernus. I've had whole campaign arcs build out of the random encounter tables for the different parts of the city. It's probably the most enriched setting outside of maybe Waterdeep in 5e, though I feel BG is presented in DiA in a way that gives even first level parties a vision that they can actually make "the big time" there. It's a great setting already published.
Anyway because of BG:DitA I just don't see Baldur's Gate getting a book on its own, too redundant. Maybe if Minsc's planar adventures use BG as a starting point, they might give some new update to the setting post Ravengard's presumed return from Hell, it's geopolitical place after the Elturel crisis etc.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Is the Gazeteer in Descent into Avernus not good enough for you? I mean that book has a pretty comprehensive map of the city, and the gazetteer is actually richer more immersive I'd argue than the info it provides on Avernus. I've had whole campaign arcs build out of the random encounter tables for the different parts of the city.
Anyway because of BG:DitA I just don't see Baldur's Gate getting a book on its own, too redundant. Maybe if Minsc's planar adventures use BG as a starting point, they might give some new update to the setting post Ravengard's presumed return from Hell, it's geopolitical place after the Elturel crisis etc.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
For me, if they have an optional rule to remove the level limit and restrictions on "multiclassing" into the same class and subclass (e.g.: Chronurgy divination wizard, undying undead warlock, genie warlock with all four genie patrons, draconic bloodlinie sorcerer with ancestry from all ten types of dragons), I think I would be satisfied and feel free enough that I do not have to bend over backwards to fit a character concept into narrowly defined subclass boxes.
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..whereas I would prefer a more rigid class system. :) I'm not a huge fan of how, in 5E, so many classes/subclasses get spellcasting. How many variants there are of being a healer. And so forth. With my background as an old school gamer, so much of 5E's class system seems designed to minimize the differences between the classes, up to and including feats (which, yes, are optional) that allow for even more bleedover.
However, I know I'm most definitely in the minority in this, and it's just not the way the game or audience is going.
Monster stat blocks and character sheets share a lot in common:
- AC, HP, Speed
- Six core stats
- Skills
- Resistance and Immunity
- Senses
- Languages
- Proficiency Bonus
The presentation of these things should be presented in a common unified format in my opinion.
Features and actions between monsters and PCs are not that much different each other either, and the main difference is that PCs have a lot more features and actions. This can easily be accounted for by just having additional pages, which should not affect the overall format.
The only other difference is that PCs have inventory and backstory pages, which again should not affect the overall format if you just put it at the back. While I do not think GMs will need an inventory page for their NPCs, I can certainly see GMs wanting a backstory page for more unique and special NPCs.
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I just want an optional rule or some kind mechanic to recognize that there are people want a more free form system. It does not have to be perfect, as Custom Lineage is far from that, but having those kinds of free form options available is what makes customization fun, and it makes D&D more personal. People do not have to bend and twist their vision of their characters as much to fit them into preset race-subclass molds.
For me, the easiest way to do implement that is to have an optional rule that removes level limits and allowing multiclassing into the same class and subclass.
I do not think it is too difficult to have a unified format that can account for the differences. Creatures with Lair or Legendary Actions already would not easily fit in a 3 by 5 card anyways, and you can just put that stuff in the space where PCs would put their class features, feats, and all that other stuff.
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D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
You're trying to make data/information dictate form, but you're forgetting function. The use of data and information differs greatly, I'd even say literally dramatically, between a PC a monster/npc, and thus are organized differently. A PC character sheet is designed to manage a character during encounters and facilitate the player developing the character over the course of the game, the nature of its use is inherently dynamic. A stat block has the static duty of DMs reference for an encounter. It encapsulates the monster (and NPCs mechanically speaking are monsters) for an instance within the game. I know a lot of folks take their favorite NPCs and de facto DMPC them by tracking their level development etc. ... and I mean if a DM wants NPC building to be their own mini game hobby, fill out those character sheets, though there are better ways for a DM to spend their time for the their game's benefit. Realistically though, and on the frankly work smarter not harder level, it's just more efficient and enabling for the DM to just develop another stat block for the next iteration of the NPC/monster if enough has occurred in game warranting such growth. Building encounters out character sheets shifts the focus to working with the sheet and not the monster builder that shifts the focus to the game.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I do not think GMs and players use their character sheets and statblocks that differently. Players have no issue running statblocks as their characters, with the only minor change that might be necessary is to expand the skill section to list all proficiencies. The only issue with GMs running current character sheets is that there is not enough room on the table or screen due to how things are spaced apart.
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D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
I absolutely agree with you but I think that DMs can actually make their adventures more focused on downtime activities if they want and even with this 5e, they can make a great adventure that's not centred around combat.
I think whatever comes out in 2024 will be minor changes/updates at most. With the current edition, WOTC got what they wanted with 4th Ed., a subscription supported rpg system. Right now, they have licensing agreements with fandom, roll20, and fantasy grounds for full content. They get some percentage of each product sale, too.
New editions come out when sales need to be juiced. With a consistent revenue steam, why risk alienating a player base that put out over $800 for content plus subscription revenues? As far as an in house vtt, why outlay internal cost to reinvent the wheel when you can just collect licensing fees?
The more likely thing to happen over the next two years is moving from in house development to contractors. That will probably begin to happen as WOTC misses Hasbro targets tied to matching pandemic performance.
I don’t mean to paint a bleak picture, but this is the most likely scenario to play out. Of course, this assumes Hasbro/WOTC does the smartest thing and history has shown that doesn’t always happen.
As someone who's a player and a GM, I absolutely use the sheets in different ways. I want and need my character sheet to be complete and fully detailed. I want to understand and be able to find all of my options - because I am only running that one character.
As a GM, I am running MULTIPLE monsters (meant inclusively, including NPCs) throughout the gaming session, and therefore need something more streamlined, something that can be skimmed and consistently formatted, so I can make multiple decisions on the fly throughout encounters, combat or otherwise.
I am very much against making player and monster stat blocks the same. I don't use them the same way or need them to give me the same amount of information.
I use them the same way, and I pay attention to the same exact key stats as the players. I think it is possible to create a format that is streamlined and detailed with better organization and page modularity.
Monster stat blocks already present the following key statistics in a compact format that PCs can use too:
- AC, HP, Speed (this can be expanded out a bit to include temp HP and death saves)
- Six core stats
- Skills and Saving Throws (PCs can just expand this out to include everything)
- Resistance and Immunity
- Senses
- Languages (PCs can shove tools into this section too)
- Proficiency Bonus
Even when you expand certain sections out for PCs, it will still take up less than a quarter of a page, and the rest of the page can be filled with actions and features.
Compared to the real character sheet, that leaves equipment and personality-bonds-ideals-flaws, and honestly those things can move to a different page. Personality-bonds-ideals-flaws should be moved to a different page since I do not think players need constant reminders on what how their characters act and think, and on the real character sheet itself, removal of that section gives more room to features and traits, and that section right not is so sorely small for high level characters who may have multiclassed and have several feats under their belt.
The second page would be for spells, maneuvers, elemental disciplines, and other features that have a lot of suboptions. I do not think most NPCs need this page as even the highest level NPC spellcaster can fit all their spells with their other features on the first page, and NPCs certainly do not have to deal with and keep track of maneuvers or meta magic options.
The third page could be for equipment and inventory. Most NPCs can skip this page too since I do not think most GMs have their monsters lug around large piles of loot, but party controlled sidekicks and beasts of burden might want one to serve as the party mule.
The fourth page could be for lore and fluff, so appearance, personality-bonds-ideals-flaws, backstory, allies & organizations, and all that juicy role playing stuff can fit here. Most NPCs do not need this either, but GMs would certainly want this section for more unique and special NPCs, like sidekicks and villains.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
Again, you're treating the game like some kind of holy writ that should be inviolate and, if changed, was done so by heretical forces - rather than an actual game that's ultimately produced to make a profit, and thereby needs to adapt to changing audience wants and needs.
The game is a living game. It changes and evolves with the times and players' wants and expectations. Again, I come from old school roots: I started playing AD&D in 1981. I'm not at all unaware or blind to the changes in the game since then. But that's all they are: changes. It's not a perversion or harmful mutating of the game. Just as the way films and television shows have changed how they tell stories since the 1970s, other forms of entertainment have also adapted and changed with the audience/targeted consumer.
It's pretty funny to read your wail of dismay at the corruption of the game at the hands of RPers while also having read for the last several years other people across the Web bemoaning how heavily 5E is weighted towards combat in terms of gameplay and encounter resolution. I wrote above and repeat: 5E is a remarkably flexible and malleable system. It would be very easy to houserule/adjust for the kind of game you want it to be. Heck, I've thought about imposing 1E-like racial class restrictions and even ability score limits (I personally find the idea of a halfling with an 18 strength, let alone a 20, fairly ridiculous).