At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
Anyone want to explain why one wouldn't want to choose Slight of Hand over Thieves Tools? Your going to be making a Slight of Hand check to use the Thieves tools anyway so. Any ideas?
Would you? I wouldn’t say they would. You are using a tool. How well you do the task is based on how well you use the tools.
id be asking for a thieves tools check rather than anything else when the tools are being used. I may allow slight of hand in very specific situations (a lot someone can get a hand into). I MIGHT allow a slight of hand check if someone is using something improvised as a lock picking tool provided it makes sense and isn’t abusable (ie their slight of hand is higher than the thieves tools). I’d rule the same for the other tools too.
but as far as I am concerned if you are using a tool, you make a check with that tool. Multiple weapons may use strength but you may have proficiency with one and not another.
Sleight of Hand does not apply to thieves' tools checks.
Hell, half the time Dexterity doesn't/shouldn't apply to thieves' tools checks. Virtually every check to disarm a mechanical trap with thieves' tools has at least an even chance of being Intelligence, and frankly the more complex the trap the more it should be an Intelligence check to puzzle out the mechanism well enough to safely disable it, not a Dex check to see if you can magic-fingers massage it into liking you enough to leave you be.
Sleight of Hand does not apply to thieves' tools checks.
Hell, half the time Dexterity doesn't/shouldn't apply to thieves' tools checks. Virtually every check to disarm a mechanical trap with thieves' tools has at least an even chance of being Intelligence, and frankly the more complex the trap the more it should be an Intelligence check to puzzle out the mechanism well enough to safely disable it, not a Dex check to see if you can magic-fingers massage it into liking you enough to leave you be.
Well, more than half of my thieves' tools checks are to pick locks, which should most likely be wisdom actually as it's more about sensing the current status of the lock than it is about your own precision. (not to mention, most of the ones I end up rolling shouldn't be rolled since it doesn't matter if it takes 6 seconds or 10 minutes) But yea, int is more likely to be the relevant stat for traps.
Your going to be making a Slight of Hand check to use the Thieves tools anyway so. Any ideas?
This part is incorrect. Sleight of hand is for things that involve dexterous hand movements such as pickpocketing, palming an object to conceal it, possibly cheating at cards or dice (e.g. hidden card up the sleeve) and so on. But thieves' tools uses its own proficiency modifier for picking locks or disarming traps. They are two separate things.
To expand on this further for people.
Thieves tools are a tool, therefore without having said tool listed as proficiency you have ZERO experience in using them. It's the same as any tool, jeweler's, leatherworker's, etc. If you dont have it listed, then you have ZERO knowledge in how to use them.
Spotting a trap falls under Perception (WIS) - Passive and/or Active and has zero to do with Thieves' Tools, they dont help you find them.
The Thieves' Tool roll you make as a Rogue, or Background that gets said Proficiency such as Urchin, is your normal D20 + Proficiency + Bonuses roll. Those Bonuses can vary wildly, it can come from Expertise in Thieves' Tools at 6th level. Or as listed by OP at 1st level. Reliable Talent and Stroke of Luck abilities also applies when you are using Thieves tools since you are making an ability check roll by rolling when using your Tools.
As has been said, Sleight of Hand has zero to do with your knowledge to use Thieves' Tools. Now I know some DMs do include it in such a roll, that is because of their understanding on how they work. However both Sleight of Hand and the use of Thieves' Tools have been a separate roll for such since I believe the dawn of D&D. I remember it even being different back in 2nd where Thieves Tools didnt exist, you had three separate rolls for such things. Sleight of Hand (known as Pick Pockets back then), Lockpicking and Disarming Traps (Find and Remove Traps).
Edit to add this: Whenever I make a rogue, or any character for that matter, I customize the character sheet Skills section to also include the Tool Proficiencies in to make it easier to roll such should they ever be needed.
I think for traps the DMG suggests Wisdom (Perception) to detect traps, Intelligence (Investigation) to figure out how to deal with them, and Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) to disarm mechanical or Intelligence (Arcana) for magical. Something like a mechanical lock with a magical trap could involve all of the above. Although, I'm wary of making people roll tons of checks for the same thing, and might reduce it to one or two, unless it was trivial for that character in which case, no checks.
DMs should do as much as they can to avoid demanding multiple checks for one action. The best advice I've been given is to look for the lynchpin ability, the thing where a low roll/failure would stop everything else or render it moot. With trap disarming? If you can't figure out what to do to it, if you can't figure out how it works and what specific action you need to take to make it not blow up? Nothing else is gonna matter. Ergo, the lynchpin skill is Intelligence (Thieves' Tools).
I handle this the same way I handle proficiency with an instrument vs performance.
If you do a dance, or sing a song, or tell a story etc, based on just you, that's performance. If you're playing a song on an instrument, that doesn't use performance proficiency, it uses that instrument's proficiency.
If you're using thieves tools, sleight of hand proficiency is irrelevant. The DM picks the ability check and if you're using thieves tools, add your proficiency if you have it.
On the topic of using intelligence etc, I would probably make that a separate check. Maybe an investigation check to decipher how the mechanism works, and then dexterity thieves tools to actually disarm it without setting it off.
For trap disarmament my DM typically allows for a Sleight of Hand check because none of my group really plays rogues, or happens to have Thieves' Tools on their person. If ever we do, I'll bring it up and see what happens. I mostly choose it for flavour, given that - if I'm reading the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG) correctly - I'd get the same bonus to Sleight of Hand as I would Thieves' Tools, a +2, and chances are my character already has proficiency in Sleight of Hand anyway. For me it's a safety net in case Thieves' Tools is called for instead of Sleight of Hand.
Given how much debate there is on the subject, in and out of this thread, it tells me the rules are either unclear, unwritten, or unread. I recently purchased the DMG so apologies if I'm not overly familiar with how it words things, but quote,
If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves’ tools to perform the necessary sabotage.
So I take it the check is a DEX check and add plus two/four depending on proficiency/expertise? I don't know. I would like for the books to provide more examples on how to calculate these things, as it often does with spellcasting ability and so forth. The word 'might' doesn't help much either, leaving it up in the air for different DMs to interpret how they want to. And that's good because traps don't all work the same; see the next part about magical traps, quote,
Any character can attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check to detect or disarm a magic trap, in addition to any other checks noted in the trap’s description. The DCs are the same regardless of the check used. In addition, dispel magic has a chance of disabling most magic traps. A magic trap’s description provides the DC for the ability check made when you use dispel magic.
Ultimately, it depends on the Dungeon Master to decide what this trap requires. They might call for any number of checks, including zero, as they might prefer clever play or interact with the object with an item rather than with stats and dice. My current DM calls for Sleight of Hand, but my group's upcoming DM might call for Thieves' Tools, acrobatics, or a 10ft. pole.
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"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
For trap disarmament my DM typically allows for a Sleight of Hand check because none of my group really plays rogues, or happens to have Thieves' Tools on their person. If ever we do, I'll bring it up and see what happens. I mostly choose it for flavour, given that - if I'm reading the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG) correctly - I'd get the same bonus to Sleight of Hand as I would Thieves' Tools, a +2, and chances are my character already has proficiency in Sleight of Hand anyway. For me it's a safety net in case Thieves' Tools is called for instead of Sleight of Hand.
Given how much debate there is on the subject, in and out of this thread, it tells me the rules are either unclear, unwritten, or unread. I recently purchased the DMG so apologies if I'm not overly familiar with how it words things, but quote,
If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves’ tools to perform the necessary sabotage.
So I take it the check is a DEX check and add plus two/four depending on proficiency/expertise? I don't know. I would like for the books to provide more examples on how to calculate these things, as it often does with spellcasting ability and so forth. The word 'might' doesn't help much either, leaving it up in the air for different DMs to interpret how they want to. And that's good because traps don't all work the same; see the next part about magical traps, quote,
Any character can attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check to detect or disarm a magic trap, in addition to any other checks noted in the trap’s description. The DCs are the same regardless of the check used. In addition, dispel magic has a chance of disabling most magic traps. A magic trap’s description provides the DC for the ability check made when you use dispel magic.
Ultimately, it depends on the Dungeon Master to decide what this trap requires. They might call for any number of checks, including zero, as they might prefer clever play or interact with the object with an item rather than with stats and dice. My current DM calls for Sleight of Hand, but my group's upcoming DM might call for Thieves' Tools, acrobatics, or a 10ft. pole.
Ability checks can depend a lot on the situation and on the technical details of the challenge. You may have an "Operation" type trap where it's obvious what need to be done, but the challenge is having steady enough hands. Others could be like defusing a bomb: cutting a wire is easy, figuring out which wire is the hard part. If dodging the trap is a matter of timing, a DM might allow a choice of Dex or Wis. And, like in the example from the DMG, the DM can call for a combination of checks. I'm not really a fan of this: it's like applying disadvantage for no reason, because multiple checks essentially comes down to having multiple chances to fail, and while I like dice as much as the next person I don't think adding more rolls makes a situation more interesting (though the occasional convoluted puzzle involving a multistep solution process can be fun, and skill challenges are a great mechanic for condensing complex and lengthy situations). So it's not that the rules are unclear, it's that they're open-ended, flexible tools rather than rigid restrictions that leave no room for variety or creativity.
And to clarify: yes, that check is a Dex check adding proficiency bonus is proficient with thieves' tools, or twice PB if having expertise in them.
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So I take it the check is a DEX check and add plus two/four depending on proficiency/expertise? I don't know. I would like for the books to provide more examples on how to calculate these things, as it often does with spellcasting ability and so forth. The word 'might' doesn't help much either, leaving it up in the air for different DMs to interpret how they want to.
The game doesn't do a good job of explaining it, but all ability checks are the same. You get d20+the stat chosen by the DM+proficiency/expertise if the DM decides that something you're proficient in applies. There aren't actually any skill checks, just ability checks where a skill applies.
I think for traps the DMG suggests Wisdom (Perception) to detect traps, Intelligence (Investigation) to figure out how to deal with them, and Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) to disarm mechanical or Intelligence (Arcana) for magical. Something like a mechanical lock with a magical trap could involve all of the above. Although, I'm wary of making people roll tons of checks for the same thing, and might reduce it to one or two, unless it was trivial for that character in which case, no checks.
For a case where it's a mechanical lock with a magical trap, I would probably either use help action or taking the average of the two independent checks (Like a group skill check, but for two people) against a DC.
This would support the fact that someone with magical expertise and someone with either brute force or thieves tools are working together to circumvent both defenses together. That being said, if there is no penalty for failure, no check is needed.
If there are two entirely separate traps, two separate rolls would be warranted - a player disarms each trap one at a time. If a trap has both mechanical and arcane elements, one could either decide on which the trap is more of and use that as the base roll, or they could call for either Thieves' Tools or Arcana at an increased DC, to account for the character having imperfect knowledge of the trap/the trap being more complex to safely disarm.
Frankly I don't care much for Arcana by itself as a disarming mechanism - what are you Arcana-ing with? - but eh. It works well enough for most tables. The whole issue just butts up against my intense dislike for how badly 5e handles tools/items/gear in general.
Manipulating mystical energies or some such, I assume. Disturbing the eldritch pattern, breaking the arcane connection, removing the mojo from the juju.
"...While wearing them, you gain a +5 bonus to Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) checks and Dexterity checks made to pick locks."
As in this example, the word "and" makes it clear that the two things are in fact different things. As Lunali pointed out, 5e rules for this kind of thing are based on the principle that every "skill check" is actually an ability check with the appropriate ability selected by the DM who then allows a character's proficiency bonus to be added to it if the character has a skill or tool proficiency that can apply to the task. From the rules description of thieves tools: Proficiency with these tools lets you add your Proficiency Bonus to any Ability Checks you make to Disarm traps or open locks. Sleight of Hand, a different proficiency, does not apply to these checks because it specifically deals with other tasks. With the above quote stating that picking a lock is a Dex check, proficiency with thieves tools allows a character to add their proficiency bonus to that Dex check.
You do not use thieves tools to pick somebody's pocket. You do not use sleight of hand to pick a lock.
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Expertise
At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies.
Anyone want to explain why one wouldn't want to choose Slight of Hand over Thieves Tools? Your going to be making a Slight of Hand check to use the Thieves tools anyway so. Any ideas?
DruidVSAdventure
Check out my Homebrew Class The Evoker
Those are actually two separate checks.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Would you? I wouldn’t say they would. You are using a tool. How well you do the task is based on how well you use the tools.
id be asking for a thieves tools check rather than anything else when the tools are being used. I may allow slight of hand in very specific situations (a lot someone can get a hand into). I MIGHT allow a slight of hand check if someone is using something improvised as a lock picking tool provided it makes sense and isn’t abusable (ie their slight of hand is higher than the thieves tools). I’d rule the same for the other tools too.
but as far as I am concerned if you are using a tool, you make a check with that tool. Multiple weapons may use strength but you may have proficiency with one and not another.
For reference: Gloves of Thievery
Sleight of Hand does not apply to thieves' tools checks.
Hell, half the time Dexterity doesn't/shouldn't apply to thieves' tools checks. Virtually every check to disarm a mechanical trap with thieves' tools has at least an even chance of being Intelligence, and frankly the more complex the trap the more it should be an Intelligence check to puzzle out the mechanism well enough to safely disable it, not a Dex check to see if you can magic-fingers massage it into liking you enough to leave you be.
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Well, more than half of my thieves' tools checks are to pick locks, which should most likely be wisdom actually as it's more about sensing the current status of the lock than it is about your own precision. (not to mention, most of the ones I end up rolling shouldn't be rolled since it doesn't matter if it takes 6 seconds or 10 minutes) But yea, int is more likely to be the relevant stat for traps.
To expand on this further for people.
Thieves tools are a tool, therefore without having said tool listed as proficiency you have ZERO experience in using them. It's the same as any tool, jeweler's, leatherworker's, etc. If you dont have it listed, then you have ZERO knowledge in how to use them.
Spotting a trap falls under Perception (WIS) - Passive and/or Active and has zero to do with Thieves' Tools, they dont help you find them.
The Thieves' Tool roll you make as a Rogue, or Background that gets said Proficiency such as Urchin, is your normal D20 + Proficiency + Bonuses roll. Those Bonuses can vary wildly, it can come from Expertise in Thieves' Tools at 6th level. Or as listed by OP at 1st level. Reliable Talent and Stroke of Luck abilities also applies when you are using Thieves tools since you are making an ability check roll by rolling when using your Tools.
As has been said, Sleight of Hand has zero to do with your knowledge to use Thieves' Tools. Now I know some DMs do include it in such a roll, that is because of their understanding on how they work. However both Sleight of Hand and the use of Thieves' Tools have been a separate roll for such since I believe the dawn of D&D. I remember it even being different back in 2nd where Thieves Tools didnt exist, you had three separate rolls for such things. Sleight of Hand (known as Pick Pockets back then), Lockpicking and Disarming Traps (Find and Remove Traps).
Edit to add this:
Whenever I make a rogue, or any character for that matter, I customize the character sheet Skills section to also include the Tool Proficiencies in to make it easier to roll such should they ever be needed.
DMs should do as much as they can to avoid demanding multiple checks for one action. The best advice I've been given is to look for the lynchpin ability, the thing where a low roll/failure would stop everything else or render it moot. With trap disarming? If you can't figure out what to do to it, if you can't figure out how it works and what specific action you need to take to make it not blow up? Nothing else is gonna matter. Ergo, the lynchpin skill is Intelligence (Thieves' Tools).
Please do not contact or message me.
I handle this the same way I handle proficiency with an instrument vs performance.
If you do a dance, or sing a song, or tell a story etc, based on just you, that's performance. If you're playing a song on an instrument, that doesn't use performance proficiency, it uses that instrument's proficiency.
If you're using thieves tools, sleight of hand proficiency is irrelevant. The DM picks the ability check and if you're using thieves tools, add your proficiency if you have it.
On the topic of using intelligence etc, I would probably make that a separate check. Maybe an investigation check to decipher how the mechanism works, and then dexterity thieves tools to actually disarm it without setting it off.
For trap disarmament my DM typically allows for a Sleight of Hand check because none of my group really plays rogues, or happens to have Thieves' Tools on their person. If ever we do, I'll bring it up and see what happens. I mostly choose it for flavour, given that - if I'm reading the Dungeon Master's Guide (DMG) correctly - I'd get the same bonus to Sleight of Hand as I would Thieves' Tools, a +2, and chances are my character already has proficiency in Sleight of Hand anyway. For me it's a safety net in case Thieves' Tools is called for instead of Sleight of Hand.
Given how much debate there is on the subject, in and out of this thread, it tells me the rules are either unclear, unwritten, or unread. I recently purchased the DMG so apologies if I'm not overly familiar with how it words things, but quote,
So I take it the check is a DEX check and add plus two/four depending on proficiency/expertise? I don't know. I would like for the books to provide more examples on how to calculate these things, as it often does with spellcasting ability and so forth. The word 'might' doesn't help much either, leaving it up in the air for different DMs to interpret how they want to. And that's good because traps don't all work the same; see the next part about magical traps, quote,
Ultimately, it depends on the Dungeon Master to decide what this trap requires. They might call for any number of checks, including zero, as they might prefer clever play or interact with the object with an item rather than with stats and dice. My current DM calls for Sleight of Hand, but my group's upcoming DM might call for Thieves' Tools, acrobatics, or a 10ft. pole.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
Ability checks can depend a lot on the situation and on the technical details of the challenge. You may have an "Operation" type trap where it's obvious what need to be done, but the challenge is having steady enough hands. Others could be like defusing a bomb: cutting a wire is easy, figuring out which wire is the hard part. If dodging the trap is a matter of timing, a DM might allow a choice of Dex or Wis. And, like in the example from the DMG, the DM can call for a combination of checks. I'm not really a fan of this: it's like applying disadvantage for no reason, because multiple checks essentially comes down to having multiple chances to fail, and while I like dice as much as the next person I don't think adding more rolls makes a situation more interesting (though the occasional convoluted puzzle involving a multistep solution process can be fun, and skill challenges are a great mechanic for condensing complex and lengthy situations). So it's not that the rules are unclear, it's that they're open-ended, flexible tools rather than rigid restrictions that leave no room for variety or creativity.
And to clarify: yes, that check is a Dex check adding proficiency bonus is proficient with thieves' tools, or twice PB if having expertise in them.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The game doesn't do a good job of explaining it, but all ability checks are the same. You get d20+the stat chosen by the DM+proficiency/expertise if the DM decides that something you're proficient in applies. There aren't actually any skill checks, just ability checks where a skill applies.
For a case where it's a mechanical lock with a magical trap, I would probably either use help action or taking the average of the two independent checks (Like a group skill check, but for two people) against a DC.
This would support the fact that someone with magical expertise and someone with either brute force or thieves tools are working together to circumvent both defenses together. That being said, if there is no penalty for failure, no check is needed.
If there are two entirely separate traps, two separate rolls would be warranted - a player disarms each trap one at a time. If a trap has both mechanical and arcane elements, one could either decide on which the trap is more of and use that as the base roll, or they could call for either Thieves' Tools or Arcana at an increased DC, to account for the character having imperfect knowledge of the trap/the trap being more complex to safely disarm.
Frankly I don't care much for Arcana by itself as a disarming mechanism - what are you Arcana-ing with? - but eh. It works well enough for most tables. The whole issue just butts up against my intense dislike for how badly 5e handles tools/items/gear in general.
Please do not contact or message me.
Manipulating mystical energies or some such, I assume. Disturbing the eldritch pattern, breaking the arcane connection, removing the mojo from the juju.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Unless a failure could break the lock, disable the ability to unlock, or trigger something unintended. Granted, those should still be rare.
As in this example, the word "and" makes it clear that the two things are in fact different things. As Lunali pointed out, 5e rules for this kind of thing are based on the principle that every "skill check" is actually an ability check with the appropriate ability selected by the DM who then allows a character's proficiency bonus to be added to it if the character has a skill or tool proficiency that can apply to the task. From the rules description of thieves tools: Proficiency with these tools lets you add your Proficiency Bonus to any Ability Checks you make to Disarm traps or open locks. Sleight of Hand, a different proficiency, does not apply to these checks because it specifically deals with other tasks. With the above quote stating that picking a lock is a Dex check, proficiency with thieves tools allows a character to add their proficiency bonus to that Dex check.
You do not use thieves tools to pick somebody's pocket. You do not use sleight of hand to pick a lock.