Maybe, I must have missed it in the initial post - the biggest take away I got was the DM got their knickers in a twist - so just take out most of my post and say the DM should just get over himself - the story moved on.
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Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
Maybe, I must have missed it in the initial post - the biggest take away I got was the DM got their knickers in a twist - so just take out most of my post and say the DM should just get over himself - the story moved on.
Since the campaign moved on, I assume the DM did as well. But sure, rake him over the coals for making a comment.
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It's called "now you know, saddle up". The players don't have to see the solution mapped out right away in order for being presented with massive stakes to be ok. One step at a time can get you across the world eventually. Sometimes "big" is the point.
Solution mapped out? Massive stakes?
If the stakes are that massive, why is suicide by demon such a bad idea? Alternatively, if they do have the destiny of defying and eventually destroying the demon, why wouldn't it make more sense for it to just destroy them then and there? What happens if it simply sends the cultists with them to ensure they carry out its dirty work?
There is a missing caravan and people out there in apparent need of rescue, but that is not 'big' enough for 1st level?
Suicide by demon accomplishes nothing but martyrdom, lets the demon go about its business unhindered by anything other than the temporary inconvenience of of needing to find a couple other mortals to try and make comply, and certainly doesn't further the rescue of that caravan in trouble. Martyrdom aside, I don't expect the deities involved to be all that impressed with the choice made. ...
The demon wouldn't know of any destiny wherein it will inevitably be destroyed, if it would even believe in such a thing. And if the cultists are sent along, the PCs still aren't any worse off - at least they'd have a better idea of what the demon wants exactly, there might be opportunities to turn the tables later, and if push comes to shove attacking 30 cultists probably has a better chance of success than attacking a goristro. A caravan going missing in the same area a goristro is mucking about with a cult is a pretty big coincidence too, could be worth sticking around for nothing more than to see if there's anything more to that as well.
There were ways the DM could have handled this after the players made their choice to attack the demon. An easy way could have been that they were just knocked unconscious after the demon tries to toy with them. They wake up in a holding cell with x amount of cultists guarding them and possibly their weapons. Then they need to plan how to escape and level up so that they can defeat the demon further down the road. (That's just one example of what could have happened without anyone getting all meta-gamey) Now whether after their attack the cultists still try to get them to do what the demon asks is up to the DM and the players based on if they manage to escape.
You realize that's pretty much what happened, and that the game moved on?
... We have a paladin of Pelor, a Cleric of Lathander and a Paladin of Bahamut. ... There is no possibility of escape, because the cultists surround the camp, but we also don't want to help a demon. So my character decides that he will attack the demon. He rather wants to die, then help such a creature. I think this action was in-character, because my guy is a bit overzealous and doesn't have a very high wisdom. I ask the other players if they are on board, and they nod. We don't know how strong of a monster the demon is, but we attack him anyway. ...
Kotath speaks of a possible suicide or a plausibly predestined victory.
The "doesn't have a very high wisdom" paladin "rather wants to die" while the Cleric of the Morming Lord (who "favored those who dispelled the undead and blessed those who planted new life") doesn't seem to have successfully perception, insight or similar checked to have seen how likely it would be for the paladin to get what he wants.
Pangurgan says "Suicide by demon accomplishes nothing but martyrdom, [and leaves the demon just] needing to find a couple other mortals to try and make comply" but there's more to it than just that. There were 30 cultists already available and that was before joining any others that may have already have been in the leader's camp. They all seem to have been quite compliant and yet something more was needed.
A death or glory paladin might hope that other (paste criteria here) mortals might be just as unwilling to be railroaded by their DMs, sorry, just as unwilling to make a deal with a demon, as he is.
I googled "don't make a deal with the devil" which raised "About 1,550,000 results". There are certainly people that think in this kind of way.
..., there might be opportunities to turn the tables later, ...
and there might not. Even if we just considered a non-metagamed scenario in which could not be banked on DM to give players every chance of victory, a demon, having got the characters into the camp surrounded by the 30 original cultists + any cultists previously in the camp + the demon, could have ordered the group stripped of their possessions etc up at least to the point of throwing Luke Skywalker to the Sarlacc.
And how would the characters get to the "later on" bit. Do they have to say "yes" to the demon? Would there be consequences in making a demonic agreement? Would the characters be able to evaluate the risks?
The bible makes claims like "resist the devil, and he will flee from you" and I'd imagine that other dispel the undead type religions might make similar claims.
So does "Suicide ... accomplish... nothing but martyrdom"?
At one end of the scale, the Japanese suicide bombers in the WWII got the chance to take out a ship. The party "don't know how strong of a monster the demon is" and may, perhaps optimistically, have hoped to have taken out a goristro. And even if they failed leaving "the demon ... needing to find a couple other mortals to try and make comply", maybe they won't be the kind of first level schmucks who, after the fact, we know might "get immediately downed, in the first round of combat".
... my character decides that he will attack the demon. He rather wants to die, then help such a creature. ... We get stabilized by the cultists. ... We continued the game after that, ... Should I apologize?
No.
You can do what you like but, in accordance with who your paladin was, you acted in accordance with your character's character.
First, the DM kills your character physically, then he wants to kill his character in expecting him to comply with a demon. It's all wrong.
On another tack, there may have been a lot of things you may have only learned after the fact or that might have played out differently.
We are two paladins and a cleric. We are lvl1. We travelled the desert, in search for a lost caravan, and discovered a camp of cultists. The cultists "insisted" to take us to their leader. There were 30 of them and only 3 of us, so we went along with it. they lead us to the leaders camp, and it turns out the leader is a Goristro, a demon. Our characters are shocked! (We have a paladin of Pelor, a Cleric of Lathander and a Paladin of Bahamut.). The Demon demands, that we retrieve something for him from an ancient crypt, or die. There is no possibility of escape, because the cultists surround the camp, but we also don't want to help a demon. So my character decides that he will attack the demon. He rather wants to die, then help such a creature. I think this action was in-character, because my guy is a bit overzealous and doesn't have a very high wisdom. I ask the other players if they are on board, and they nod. We don't know how strong of a monster the demon is, but we attack him anyway. ...
We strike at the Goristro and the illusion/apparition (of a demon on the material plane) shatters. Mental control over many of the cultists weakens and the group turns on the minority of magickers that had been pulling the strings.
Maybe, I must have missed it in the initial post - the biggest take away I got was the DM got their knickers in a twist - so just take out most of my post and say the DM should just get over himself - the story moved on.
Odo Proudfoot - Lvl 10 Halfling Monk - Princes of the Apocalypse (Campaign Finished)
Orryn Pebblefoot - Lvl 5 Rock Gnome Wizard (Deceased) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (Deceased)
Anerin Ap Tewdr - Lvl 5 Human (Variant) Bard (College of Valor) - Waterdeep: Dragon Heist
Since the campaign moved on, I assume the DM did as well. But sure, rake him over the coals for making a comment.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The OP states:
Kotath speaks of a possible suicide or a plausibly predestined victory.
The "doesn't have a very high wisdom" paladin "rather wants to die" while the Cleric of the Morming Lord (who "favored those who dispelled the undead and blessed those who planted new life") doesn't seem to have successfully perception, insight or similar checked to have seen how likely it would be for the paladin to get what he wants.
Pangurgan says "Suicide by demon accomplishes nothing but martyrdom, [and leaves the demon just] needing to find a couple other mortals to try and make comply" but there's more to it than just that. There were 30 cultists already available and that was before joining any others that may have already have been in the leader's camp. They all seem to have been quite compliant and yet something more was needed.
A death or glory paladin might hope that other (paste criteria here) mortals might be just as unwilling to be railroaded by their DMs, sorry, just as unwilling to make a deal with a demon, as he is.
I googled "don't make a deal with the devil" which raised "About 1,550,000 results". There are certainly people that think in this kind of way.
and there might not. Even if we just considered a non-metagamed scenario in which could not be banked on DM to give players every chance of victory, a demon, having got the characters into the camp surrounded by the 30 original cultists + any cultists previously in the camp + the demon, could have ordered the group stripped of their possessions etc up at least to the point of throwing Luke Skywalker to the Sarlacc.
And how would the characters get to the "later on" bit. Do they have to say "yes" to the demon? Would there be consequences in making a demonic agreement? Would the characters be able to evaluate the risks?
The bible makes claims like "resist the devil, and he will flee from you" and I'd imagine that other dispel the undead type religions might make similar claims.
So does "Suicide ... accomplish... nothing but martyrdom"?
At one end of the scale, the Japanese suicide bombers in the WWII got the chance to take out a ship. The party "don't know how strong of a monster the demon is" and may, perhaps optimistically, have hoped to have taken out a goristro. And even if they failed leaving "the demon ... needing to find a couple other mortals to try and make comply", maybe they won't be the kind of first level schmucks who, after the fact, we know might "get immediately downed, in the first round of combat".
No.
You can do what you like but, in accordance with who your paladin was, you acted in accordance with your character's character.
First, the DM kills your character physically, then he wants to kill his character in expecting him to comply with a demon. It's all wrong.
On another tack, there may have been a lot of things you may have only learned after the fact or that might have played out differently.
We strike at the Goristro and the illusion/apparition (of a demon on the material plane) shatters. Mental control over many of the cultists weakens and the group turns on the minority of magickers that had been pulling the strings.
I don't personally think that your character's actions cast judgments on your play.
For me, if there is an issue, it may be this.