For no other reason but to ramble about wisdom. I just recently finished rereading the Bible's book of Proverbs and I just want to compare how that book describes wisdom to how it is used in dnd. Proverbs have a wide definition of wisdom: varying between being industrious, self control, discipline, knowledge, humility, and avoiding self destructive behavior. And yet in dnd it means how well you notice the world. So, according to dnd stats what Proverbs is basically is a combination Int and charisma.
But this is only one book's way of describing wisdom. How do you describe wisdom and how does it compare to dnd or book of proverbs?
I always explain wisdom as your "street smarts"--your instinctive ability to read the world around you--while intelligence is your "book smarts"--your knowledge gained through study. This explanation tracks fairly well with how Wisdom and Intelligence are presented in-game.
If we move beyond D&D, any number of sources are going to have different definitions of wisdom. From the Proverbs you mention, to the Socrates of the Dialogues defining Wisdom as the knowledge of what you do not know, to the Norse belief that wisdom is gained through experience and hardship, to countless other definitions in countless different cultures, you will find different definitions of what constitutes the esoteric concept "wisdom".
There are many different types of neurological skills that mankind has. Several, such as short term, medium term, and long term memory capacity are helpful, but not significant. Speed of loading and recalling data is again, not significant.
The true difference between us and chimpanzees appears to me to be compare one or more patterns with those previously seen, i.e. variations of pattern recognition. The ability to recognize specific, exact patterns is math, logic, etc. The ability to recognize more generic patterns is less logical and close to an artistic ability.
In my personal experience, 'book learning' (aka "Intelligence") tends to focus more on the exact patterns. Also as it is learned in a more formal situation you are told specifically what to remember and 'learn', rather than paying attention to other things in that room, such as the window, table, air-conditioner etc. Remember X history, when they did Y, because of Z. Learn theorem A, B and C, then apply them. No need to learn anything about your teach's black eye, that is not relevant.
Wisdom however, tends to be applied to the more artistic end of less specific patterns. The patterns are not identical to what you learned previously, but merely similar. It comes without warning about what is important vs non-important. You need to pay attention to everything and file it away. For example, examining a street and realizing it is a rough neighborhood, and knowing whom you can talk to on that street and whom to avoid. Those are less specific things, more generic patterns. These are not things you were necessarily pointed at told to learn, you had to figure out what was important on your own AND learn it. Then later on, you had to realize when to apply what you learned on your own again, there is never a sign indicating that it is time to apply for example "man trying to use my greed to convince me to give him money" or "Man running from his life, so start running yourself without waiting to figure out what is going on."
To simplify, Intelligence is about learning specific clearly presented facts, remembering them and applying them when needed. Wisdom is about figuring out which qualities of current circumstances are important, remembering them and looking for those qualities in radically different circumstances.
P.S. Most real world religious books are intended as an instruction manual about how that religion wants you to act, not a reasonable description of the actual world. So biblical books tend to define things like 'wisdom' not about what wisdom truly is, but instead how they WANT you to act. The book of proverbs wants people to be industrious, self controlled, disciplined, humble etc. so they ascribe those qualities to 'wisdom'. For example, in my personal experience many foolish people can be industrious and humble.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, "D&D is a game with the worst names." It is a game with a ton of rules which are made harder to understand because important words have bad names.
"Dextertity" means "Right Handed" or how accurately you can use your hands. This is great for sleight of hand and using a bow... but it has absolutely 0 to do with foot based balance, dodging, stealth, nor acrobatics.
Wisdom typically means "doable knowledge". Viziers (who's name comes from Wise, or Wiser) tell you what the outcome of your actions will be. It's foreknowledge of what you'll do (which was also the main power of IRL Druids). Here in D&D it's how bull headed you are, how well you can see, how well you can paycho-analyze, tame lions, go camping, and practice medicine... and somehow old people tend to get it, but Elves who are ancient by human standards before they "become an adult" don't focus on this stat because they spend hundreds of years focused on dancing and looking for their keys, I guess... and lastly, Wizards get their name for being the Wisest around, and they don't use Wisdom.
Armor Class doesn't make sense as a term. Saving throws is a level or two of extracting (because you're throwing dice to save yourself, so you could just as easily call them Saving Casts.) Attack rolls don't do damage when they could be Accuracy rolls. There's a lot more, but there's a start of D&D using the wrong term for pretty important game stuff.
For no other reason but to ramble about wisdom. I just recently finished rereading the Bible's book of Proverbs and I just want to compare how that book describes wisdom to how it is used in dnd. Proverbs have a wide definition of wisdom: varying between being industrious, self control, discipline, knowledge, humility, and avoiding self destructive behavior. And yet in dnd it means how well you notice the world. So, according to dnd stats what Proverbs is basically is a combination Int and charisma.
But this is only one book's way of describing wisdom. How do you describe wisdom and how does it compare to dnd or book of proverbs?
This has been mentioned, but I think it needs to be emphasised.
Proverbs doesn't define wisdom as those things. Instead, they are the fruits of wisdom. There is a saying, "knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing that it doesn't belong in a fruit salad". That doesn't mean that if you're unaware that a tomato is a fruit, you have no knowledge and if you don't know that tomatoes don't belong in a fruit salad, you are unwise. Being industrious doesn't mean that you are wise, or vice versa. Instead, Proverbs is to tell you that if you are wise, you'll be industrious. It is wise to be industrious. It's not trying to define wisdom as, in part at least, industriousness, instead that being industrious is a consequence of being wise.
Wisdom is the ability to interpret the world around us (or, indeed, inside of us) and understand what an appropriate course of action would be in response to it.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Int is your ability to learn, intellectually analyze and remember stuff. Wis is your ability to draw good and meaningful conclusions from what you know and the world around you. At my table.
With that said, imho it's not a fruitful idea to try to make sense of the D&D stats from a real world standpoint, and even less so from real world religious books. As long as it works for the game, all is fine, in D&D and other game systems.
This is a very complete thorough reply! But if I may add know what is and is not useful does seem to be wise.
I agree. But I divide it such that when you can value what's useful from evidence, fact and prior knowledge, it's Int. When it's more about intuition, connecting far away dots and perceive vague but important anomalies, it's Wis. Sort of :-)
I remember the description in the 1e books being something like: If you’re outside walking and feel water drops on your skin, your int will tell you it’s raining, your wis will tell you to go inside. That distinction has stuck with me, similar to funkbas’ table, I think. Int is about knowing things, wis is about making good choices.
Wisdom is awareness, both of external things and of oneself. That helps resist mind affecting effects by realizing what's happening, hence wisdom saves often being used against enchantments. For casters that use it like Clerics and Druids, that awareness facilitates their connection to their deity or the forces of nature from which they draw their power.
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For no other reason but to ramble about wisdom. I just recently finished rereading the Bible's book of Proverbs and I just want to compare how that book describes wisdom to how it is used in dnd. Proverbs have a wide definition of wisdom: varying between being industrious, self control, discipline, knowledge, humility, and avoiding self destructive behavior. And yet in dnd it means how well you notice the world. So, according to dnd stats what Proverbs is basically is a combination Int and charisma.
But this is only one book's way of describing wisdom. How do you describe wisdom and how does it compare to dnd or book of proverbs?
Outside the Lines Fantasy – A collection of self published fiction stories.
I always explain wisdom as your "street smarts"--your instinctive ability to read the world around you--while intelligence is your "book smarts"--your knowledge gained through study. This explanation tracks fairly well with how Wisdom and Intelligence are presented in-game.
If we move beyond D&D, any number of sources are going to have different definitions of wisdom. From the Proverbs you mention, to the Socrates of the Dialogues defining Wisdom as the knowledge of what you do not know, to the Norse belief that wisdom is gained through experience and hardship, to countless other definitions in countless different cultures, you will find different definitions of what constitutes the esoteric concept "wisdom".
There are many different types of neurological skills that mankind has. Several, such as short term, medium term, and long term memory capacity are helpful, but not significant. Speed of loading and recalling data is again, not significant.
The true difference between us and chimpanzees appears to me to be compare one or more patterns with those previously seen, i.e. variations of pattern recognition. The ability to recognize specific, exact patterns is math, logic, etc. The ability to recognize more generic patterns is less logical and close to an artistic ability.
In my personal experience, 'book learning' (aka "Intelligence") tends to focus more on the exact patterns. Also as it is learned in a more formal situation you are told specifically what to remember and 'learn', rather than paying attention to other things in that room, such as the window, table, air-conditioner etc. Remember X history, when they did Y, because of Z. Learn theorem A, B and C, then apply them. No need to learn anything about your teach's black eye, that is not relevant.
Wisdom however, tends to be applied to the more artistic end of less specific patterns. The patterns are not identical to what you learned previously, but merely similar. It comes without warning about what is important vs non-important. You need to pay attention to everything and file it away. For example, examining a street and realizing it is a rough neighborhood, and knowing whom you can talk to on that street and whom to avoid. Those are less specific things, more generic patterns. These are not things you were necessarily pointed at told to learn, you had to figure out what was important on your own AND learn it. Then later on, you had to realize when to apply what you learned on your own again, there is never a sign indicating that it is time to apply for example "man trying to use my greed to convince me to give him money" or "Man running from his life, so start running yourself without waiting to figure out what is going on."
To simplify, Intelligence is about learning specific clearly presented facts, remembering them and applying them when needed. Wisdom is about figuring out which qualities of current circumstances are important, remembering them and looking for those qualities in radically different circumstances.
P.S. Most real world religious books are intended as an instruction manual about how that religion wants you to act, not a reasonable description of the actual world. So biblical books tend to define things like 'wisdom' not about what wisdom truly is, but instead how they WANT you to act. The book of proverbs wants people to be industrious, self controlled, disciplined, humble etc. so they ascribe those qualities to 'wisdom'. For example, in my personal experience many foolish people can be industrious and humble.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, "D&D is a game with the worst names." It is a game with a ton of rules which are made harder to understand because important words have bad names.
"Dextertity" means "Right Handed" or how accurately you can use your hands. This is great for sleight of hand and using a bow... but it has absolutely 0 to do with foot based balance, dodging, stealth, nor acrobatics.
Wisdom typically means "doable knowledge". Viziers (who's name comes from Wise, or Wiser) tell you what the outcome of your actions will be. It's foreknowledge of what you'll do (which was also the main power of IRL Druids). Here in D&D it's how bull headed you are, how well you can see, how well you can paycho-analyze, tame lions, go camping, and practice medicine... and somehow old people tend to get it, but Elves who are ancient by human standards before they "become an adult" don't focus on this stat because they spend hundreds of years focused on dancing and looking for their keys, I guess... and lastly, Wizards get their name for being the Wisest around, and they don't use Wisdom.
Armor Class doesn't make sense as a term. Saving throws is a level or two of extracting (because you're throwing dice to save yourself, so you could just as easily call them Saving Casts.) Attack rolls don't do damage when they could be Accuracy rolls. There's a lot more, but there's a start of D&D using the wrong term for pretty important game stuff.
This has been mentioned, but I think it needs to be emphasised.
Proverbs doesn't define wisdom as those things. Instead, they are the fruits of wisdom. There is a saying, "knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing that it doesn't belong in a fruit salad". That doesn't mean that if you're unaware that a tomato is a fruit, you have no knowledge and if you don't know that tomatoes don't belong in a fruit salad, you are unwise. Being industrious doesn't mean that you are wise, or vice versa. Instead, Proverbs is to tell you that if you are wise, you'll be industrious. It is wise to be industrious. It's not trying to define wisdom as, in part at least, industriousness, instead that being industrious is a consequence of being wise.
Wisdom is the ability to interpret the world around us (or, indeed, inside of us) and understand what an appropriate course of action would be in response to it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Int is your ability to learn, intellectually analyze and remember stuff. Wis is your ability to draw good and meaningful conclusions from what you know and the world around you. At my table.
With that said, imho it's not a fruitful idea to try to make sense of the D&D stats from a real world standpoint, and even less so from real world religious books. As long as it works for the game, all is fine, in D&D and other game systems.
This is a very complete thorough reply! But if I may add know what is and is not useful does seem to be wise.
Outside the Lines Fantasy – A collection of self published fiction stories.
I agree. But I divide it such that when you can value what's useful from evidence, fact and prior knowledge, it's Int. When it's more about intuition, connecting far away dots and perceive vague but important anomalies, it's Wis. Sort of :-)
I remember the description in the 1e books being something like: If you’re outside walking and feel water drops on your skin, your int will tell you it’s raining, your wis will tell you to go inside.
That distinction has stuck with me, similar to funkbas’ table, I think. Int is about knowing things, wis is about making good choices.
Wisdom is awareness, both of external things and of oneself. That helps resist mind affecting effects by realizing what's happening, hence wisdom saves often being used against enchantments. For casters that use it like Clerics and Druids, that awareness facilitates their connection to their deity or the forces of nature from which they draw their power.