My previous thread was mostly a PSA telling people that the blue banner ad at the top of the website that DDB throws at us seventeen times a second actually had some neat claimables in it this time. Discussion broke out concerning people's concerns with the new M3-style stat block employed by ol' Shrekna in that claimable, but it was promptly quashed.
Here's me un-quashing it.
Two main concerns arose in the pre-quashing discussion: 1.) New caster stat blocks do not use spells for their primary damage, and thus their primary damage cannot be Counterspelled. 2.) New caster stat blocks do not give a spellcasting class, a spellcasting level, or spell slots for the critter, making it harder to rejigger their spell lists.
As part of the discussion, and because I'm starting the thread so I get to have my say first nyah, my answer to these is as follows.
1.) Good. Counterspell is awful toxic garbage that should never, ever, EVER have seen print in its current form. A high-level party bullying Vecna senseless by Counterspelling his every single god damned play with a basic ***** third-level pick and turning the entire fight into "Park on this lich and Statler & Waldorf him until he cries and gives up" is not Tense, Thrilling Climactic Gameplay. It's moose piss. Counterspell should not be 100% always-works reliable, and it should not be nearly as widely available as it is. Players can enjoy bullying the DM and effectively removing the DM's ability to play spellcasters in combat all they like; that doesn't mean it's good for the game. Counterspell should be a class feature of the School of Abjuration, not a spell, and if it has to be a spell then it should always involve a roll to see if your magic jazz handsing can disrupt the enemy.
Also, if you've ever once in your life complained about the DM using Counterspell to turn off your cool plan and disrupt your play? Snap yourself with a rubber band, do twenty Hail Mary's, and take Counterspell off every single god damn character sheet you have because now you know what you've been doing to the DM every single time they try and present the party with a cool encounter against a powerful spellcasting enemy.
Regardless. Spellcasting enemies having basic damage options that can't be turned off by a player [REDACTED] every single round is a feature, not a bug. it's an improvement to the game, and maybe now players will actually respect enemy spellcasters the way the respect punchy martials or nasty monsters whose turns they can't turn off with one single [...] reaction that EVERY [...] BODY in the party always has.
2.) The issue I see is that people are trying to obey the PC generation rules for their monsters. An example given in the previous thread was the Evoker, which has two daily uses of Mage Armor per its new M3 stat block as well as an 'Arcane Burst' action that semi-simulates a Sculpted Fireball. The complaint was that previously a DM could alter the character's spell list on the fly, swapping spells around as was proper for a whateverth-level whichever. Twelfth-level wizard? No problem - switch spells around until you have a better spell list. Don't like 2/day Mage Armor because MA lasts eight hours and nobody would ever Dispel a caster's Mage Armor and force him to have to burn a turn re-upping it? Switch it to something else.
My take: DMs have no need to limit themselves to PC generation rules and the sooner they realize that the better they'll be as DMs. If you decide your Evoker knows Globe of Invulnerability because she's learned to protect herself from weenies whilst doing her job of Blowing Up Infantry? Just have her cast GoI. Decide on the spot that she gets one of them a day and don't worry about what else on her spell list you're replacing to do it. If that matters, it's something you can sort after the encounter if your Evoker is still alive, and if she's not then the players aren't really going to care if she cast an extra spell that didn't end up helping her in the end. If you-the-DM want to give a casty critter certain spells, give them those spells. Trust your judgment, remind yourself that you're not trying to screw your players over (unless you are, in which case stop it), and that whatever you're planning on will be fine. Actual game-ruining disasters of bad judgment are vanishingly rare, and casters' CRs in M3 don't take their innate casting into account anyways. All of a caster's Innate Casting stuff is basically side jobbies, their CR is calculated using their spell-like actions. So long as you're still primarily using those actions in a stand-up fight, you're golden. And if you're not? Well hell, you're the DM. Try shit, break stuff, and fix it in post. You don't have to run a perfect game, just a good one.
[REDACTED]
Notes: Please remember to remain courteous and respectful in your discussion. Thank you
Overall, I love the new Vecna. He’s exactly what I would want from the Lich - powerful when fighting, able to do some tricks to get out of the fight (since he is more a puppet master than fighter), and with some unique, powerful abilities that feel flavourful for the character.
I also agree with everything you said on Counterspell - and have banned it for both my players and NPCs as it does nothing but make people feel bad and lengthen fights (I’ll admit I play Counterspell tribal in MTG).
I have similar concerns about Dread Counterspell, and would probably make it have a recharge ability that triggers every time someone casts a spell (I do something similar with legendary resistances, since they’re a lazy game mechanic to make bosses artificially harder and feel bad to player characters). Vecna is an exception I think my players would allow to the “counterspells are banned for NPCs also” homerule, provided he wasn’t being played “I nope all three spellcasters each round.”
Vecna is a hundred thousand year old god of magic, secrets, and hatred/spite. Counterspell or Counterspell-like abilities make perfect sense for him, I have no issue with Vecna being able to foil the magic of mayfly mortal dabblers who think their arts are the equal of a true master of the arcane. The idea that somebody who's studied magic for two or three decades can just snap their fingers and autocounter frogmortoning Vecna's spellcasting, on the other hand? Significantly less believable.
That said, I kinda dig the idea of the recharge-on-doing thing. I knopw why Legendary Resistance exists, too many hard-CC effects in 5e to not give bosses a way to avoid being locked down and turned to haggis on the word 'Go', but Counterspell reactions only being available on every other cast is a neat notion. Gamey with no real in-world justification, but sometimes that's just how the role playing game gotta do, heh.
At first I thought the stat block was a little underwhelming, but still seemed like a fun villain to play that wasnt too complicated. Then I noticed that he could regain 80 hit points as a bonus action and take 3 reactions per round and now I am fully on board. This seems bonkers.
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A. If they want to remove Counterspell from the game, they should just remove Counterspell from the game. What they're doing now is:
- screwing over Wizards by denying them new spells to learn
- screwing over characters with Mage Slayer, as if they needed the nerf
- screwing over Ancients Paladins
- encouraging players to think of monsters as stat blocks instead of as creatures that exist in the world.
B. And while I'm here, the text about how Vecna's magic dagger only does cool stuff for Vecna, and if you try to use it, you don't get the cool stuff, is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard. Are we really concerned that a Vecna-level party might get a magic dagger that's too strong? Come on. It makes no sense, feels bad, and isn't needed. I hate that crap.
C. Oh, and the Book of Vile Darkness in his chest that he's just too much of a good sport to use in combat? Come on. Now, I looked it up, and honestly it doesn't help him. Nothing it can do is stronger than his normal stuff. But the way it's phrased makes it sound like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back for absolutely no reason.
D. I also really think that when a monster is making 2 weapon attacks AND casting a spell AND teleporting AND countering 3 spells, all in one round, maybe there should be some flavor text about him being very fast. Maybe there should be something you can tell your players that will indicate that he gets a lot of actions. Just a thought.
C. Oh, and the Book of Vile Darkness in his chest that he's just too much of a good sport to use in combat? Come on. Now, I looked it up, and honestly it doesn't help him. Nothing it can do is stronger than his normal stuff. But the way it's phrased makes it sound like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back for absolutely no reason.
Probably for the best that he gets used to that.
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C. Oh, and the Book of Vile Darkness in his chest that he's just too much of a good sport to use in combat? Come on. Now, I looked it up, and honestly it doesn't help him. Nothing it can do is stronger than his normal stuff. But the way it's phrased makes it sound like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back for absolutely no reason.
Probably for the best that he gets used to that.
Legit bust out laughing at that one. Well played, Kaboom. Well played.
I agree on the counterspell point and feel like it should be tweaked. A third level spell slot countering a 9th level spell with a lucky roll is silly. I think countering higher level spells should require upcasting counterspell. I don't know w hat exactly the best way to change it would be. Maybe require upcasting to the original spell's level AND require a roll if it's a high enough level slot. Maybe just require the upcasting. But I feel it should be a bit more restrictive than it is. But, it's unlikely to be changing anytime soon. So giving spell casting enemies some non spell magical actions to use is good imo, just so long as they don't phase out spells 'too' much from stat blocks and make counterspell worthless.
I suppose I should also add that I drastically increase monster hit points, so the lower efficacy of legendary resistance and non-existence of counterspells do not result in a high level party just steamrolling a monster. 5e’s player damage output to monster HP totals can be a bit questionable, particularly at high player levels.
I also have one additional problem with the monster stat block - the free level 20 adventure they published has lair actions for Vecna; the monster stat block does not. Seems a bit silly to have made lair actions for the creature but not actually have them included in the stat block.
The idea that somebody who's studied magic for two or three decades can just snap their fingers and autocounter frogmortoning Vecna's spellcasting, on the other hand? Significantly less believable.
Well, he could just Dread Counterspell their Counterspell.
He shouldn't have to. Somebody trying to stop one of Vecna's spells with a third-level spell slot should be like a five year old with a Super Soaker trying to stop a SWAT trooper in full riot armor - as adorable as it is futile. This is a millenias-old archlich, breaking his concentration requires more than hucking magic spitballs at him.
He shouldn't have to. Somebody trying to stop one of Vecna's spells with a third-level spell slot should be like a five year old with a Super Soaker trying to stop a SWAT trooper in full riot armor - as adorable as it is futile. This is a millenias-old archlich, breaking his concentration requires more than hucking magic spitballs at him.
And yet, they can, provided he chooses to cast one of his actual spells instead of his totally-not-Finger-of-Death.
My previous thread was mostly a PSA telling people that the blue banner ad at the top of the website that DDB throws at us seventeen times a second actually had some neat claimables in it this time. Discussion broke out concerning people's concerns with the new M3-style stat block employed by ol' Shrekna in that claimable, but it was promptly quashed.
Here's me un-quashing it.
Two main concerns arose in the pre-quashing discussion: 1.) New caster stat blocks do not use spells for their primary damage, and thus their primary damage cannot be Counterspelled. 2.) New caster stat blocks do not give a spellcasting class, a spellcasting level, or spell slots for the critter, making it harder to rejigger their spell lists.
As part of the discussion, and because I'm starting the thread so I get to have my say first nyah, my answer to these is as follows.
1.) Good. Counterspell is awful toxic garbage that should never, ever, EVER have seen print in its current form. A high-level party bullying Vecna senseless by Counterspelling his every single god damned play with a basic ***** third-level pick and turning the entire fight into "Park on this lich and Statler & Waldorf him until he cries and gives up" is not Tense, Thrilling Climactic Gameplay. It's moose piss. Counterspell should not be 100% always-works reliable, and it should not be nearly as widely available as it is. Players can enjoy bullying the DM and effectively removing the DM's ability to play spellcasters in combat all they like; that doesn't mean it's good for the game. Counterspell should be a class feature of the School of Abjuration, not a spell, and if it has to be a spell then it should always involve a roll to see if your magic jazz handsing can disrupt the enemy.
Also, if you've ever once in your life complained about the DM using Counterspell to turn off your cool plan and disrupt your play? Snap yourself with a rubber band, do twenty Hail Mary's, and take Counterspell off every single god damn character sheet you have because now you know what you've been doing to the DM every single time they try and present the party with a cool encounter against a powerful spellcasting enemy.
Regardless. Spellcasting enemies having basic damage options that can't be turned off by a player [REDACTED] every single round is a feature, not a bug. it's an improvement to the game, and maybe now players will actually respect enemy spellcasters the way the respect punchy martials or nasty monsters whose turns they can't turn off with one single [...] reaction that EVERY [...] BODY in the party always has.
2.) The issue I see is that people are trying to obey the PC generation rules for their monsters. An example given in the previous thread was the Evoker, which has two daily uses of Mage Armor per its new M3 stat block as well as an 'Arcane Burst' action that semi-simulates a Sculpted Fireball. The complaint was that previously a DM could alter the character's spell list on the fly, swapping spells around as was proper for a whateverth-level whichever. Twelfth-level wizard? No problem - switch spells around until you have a better spell list. Don't like 2/day Mage Armor because MA lasts eight hours and nobody would ever Dispel a caster's Mage Armor and force him to have to burn a turn re-upping it? Switch it to something else.
My take: DMs have no need to limit themselves to PC generation rules and the sooner they realize that the better they'll be as DMs. If you decide your Evoker knows Globe of Invulnerability because she's learned to protect herself from weenies whilst doing her job of Blowing Up Infantry? Just have her cast GoI. Decide on the spot that she gets one of them a day and don't worry about what else on her spell list you're replacing to do it. If that matters, it's something you can sort after the encounter if your Evoker is still alive, and if she's not then the players aren't really going to care if she cast an extra spell that didn't end up helping her in the end. If you-the-DM want to give a casty critter certain spells, give them those spells. Trust your judgment, remind yourself that you're not trying to screw your players over (unless you are, in which case stop it), and that whatever you're planning on will be fine. Actual game-ruining disasters of bad judgment are vanishingly rare, and casters' CRs in M3 don't take their innate casting into account anyways. All of a caster's Innate Casting stuff is basically side jobbies, their CR is calculated using their spell-like actions. So long as you're still primarily using those actions in a stand-up fight, you're golden. And if you're not? Well hell, you're the DM. Try shit, break stuff, and fix it in post. You don't have to run a perfect game, just a good one.
[REDACTED]
So as I'm still refusing not able to learn how to use this antiquated quoting system, you give two reasons that people oppose statblocks without spells, I have a third, it makes important NPC's empty husks. I don't have a problem with the special powers Vecna has that are not able to be countered, but taking away true spellcasting of high level spells is a net nerf to it.
Also, as in the description, this is Vecna before it became a God of Undeath.
As an aside, I love counterspell. As a player and as a DM. And the Dread Counterspell is a 100 times more strong than what a PC is able to do, so your remark about snapping yourself with a rubber band is an odd choice as this guarantees this happening as it's an unstoppable counterspell. Making counter spelled lifesaving spells a guarantee.
This statblock is a powerful but empty, illogical farce. No access to Wish, and this is the strongest Archlich in existence? Even before it became a God? Please no.
B. And while I'm here, the text about how Vecna's magic dagger only does cool stuff for Vecna, and if you try to use it, you don't get the cool stuff, is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard. Are we really concerned that a Vecna-level party might get a magic dagger that's too strong? Come on. It makes no sense, feels bad, and isn't needed. I hate that crap.
Seems like a pretty reasonable security measure from someone who's top lieutenant betrayed him and cut out his hand and eye. Its Vecna's own paranoia that he doesn't allow his dagger to be used by someone else.
B. And while I'm here, the text about how Vecna's magic dagger only does cool stuff for Vecna, and if you try to use it, you don't get the cool stuff, is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard. Are we really concerned that a Vecna-level party might get a magic dagger that's too strong? Come on. It makes no sense, feels bad, and isn't needed. I hate that crap.
Seems like a pretty reasonable security measure from someone who's top lieutenant betrayed him and cut out his hand and eye. Its Vecna's own paranoia that he doesn't allow his dagger to be used by someone else.
Well, first of all, I believe this stat block is pre-betrayal. Second, okay, let's say it does make sense -- still feels bad and isn't necessary. Third, it does allow others to use it, it just doesn't do its entropic decay thing.
So as I'm still refusing not able to learn how to use this antiquated quoting system, you give two reasons that people oppose statblocks without spells, I have a third, it makes important NPC's empty husks. I don't have a problem with the special powers Vecna has that are not able to be countered, but taking away true spellcasting of high level spells is a net nerf to it.
Also, as in the description, this is Vecna before it became a God of Undeath.
As an aside, I love counterspell. As a player and as a DM. And the Dread Counterspell is a 100 times more strong than what a PC is able to do, so your remark about snapping yourself with a rubber band is an odd choice as this guarantees this happening as it's an unstoppable counterspell. Making counter spelled lifesaving spells a guarantee.
This statblock is a powerful but empty, illogical farce. No access to Wish, and this is the strongest Archlich in existence? Even before it became a God? Please no.
A demonstration of quote snipping for you, Nech. Heh.
Vecna doesn't have Wish because giving a CR 26 archlich Wish is telling the DM "give your players the middle finger then defecate on their sheets". You simply cannot defeat a spellcaster that powerful who has unfettered access to Wish. My presumption is that Vecna used Wish and flubbed the roll sometime in the past, his days of Wishing are behind him. But if you want Vecna to cast the 'regular' version of the spell? Congrats - you now have a perfect justification for Vecna casting any eighth or lower spell you wish.
Again, Vecna has spells. He also has magical abilities that go beyond spellcasting because he's an ancient archlich and his magic is not going to be limited to what a doofus hedge apprentice can learn in six-odd months of adventuring. This idea that he's not a spellcaster because he doesn't have the word "twentieth-level wizard" on his statblock is bizarre and nonsensical. He's moved beyond the need to cast the way mortal adventurers do, and frankly the stuff in his statblock is basically there for combat purposes only. Outside of combat he can do whatever he bloody feels like because he's Vecna. "Oh no, Vecna doesn't have Scrying in his statblock! How will he keep tabs on the party?!"...said no DM ever. If Vecna cares enough about what you're doing to want to know, he'll know. And there's not all that bloody much you can do to stop him.
Really. I'm not seeing the fuss. If you want Vecna to cast a given spell, he casts the spell. What are your players gonna do, pull open this Vecna docket on DDB and complain you're not running him RAW? Throw a Cheetoh at that player, tell them to get their nose out of DM source material and back into their character sheet, and remind them who's running the game. if they want to run a campaign to the heights of PC power and build up to a climactic Vecna encounter, then they can decide how to run the big man themself. Until then, run Vecna the way you want to run him and hang the specifics.
Vecna explicitly has a spellcasting class in his statblock, so he is a wizard.
He doesn't ship with any damaging cantrips, which is the only reason I can think of to need to know his pseudolevel. As he's described as an archlich, liches are caster level 18, and he has access to an L8 spell 1/day, if you change his spell list to give him a damaging cantrip, treating him as being level 17+ should be accurate. That said, it's pretty clearly WOTC being epically lazy that we aren't told the level-equivalent of an entity with cantrips.
He doesn't have spell slots, instead acting like a Warlock with spell access via invocation, or equivalently, someone who acquired all their spells via feats. This is a combination of nerfs and buffs, but mostly nerfs. Here's his loadout (counts are per distinct spell):
At will:
Cantrip x2 (weaker than an L1 wizard)
L1 x1 (all L18 wizards have this, and if you don't mind a long casting time, all L1 wizards do, because his at-will L1 spell is a ritual spell)
L3 x4, and one of them has an upgraded casting time of 1 minute -> 1 action
All 4 spells have spell scaling Vecna can't access.
2/day:
L2 x1 (this is weaker than an L18 wizard)
This spell has spell scaling Vecna can't access; because of this, Vecna is highly unlikely to cast this spell in practice, as Rotten Fate gives him minions he doesn't have to spend time each day maintaining control over, and in battle, RF's minions will reliably act on the turn they spawn, unlike Animate Dead's.
L4 x1
L5 x1, and it has upgraded casting time 10 minutes -> 1 action
1/day:
L6 x1
This spell has spell scaling Vecna can't access.
L7 x1 and it has nerfed range Touch -> Self
L8 x1
This spell has spell scaling Vecna can't access.
Vecna has the following abilities which amount to being spell-like:
Rotten Fate: Vecna casts Finger of Death which has been scaled up to be slightly worse than you'd expect L9 Finger of Death to be scaled for damage, and the zombie raised has upgraded initiative.
Flight of the Damned (Recharge 5-6): Vecna casts Cone of Cold with the damage type changed to Necrotic, the range doubled, and frightened added in as a rider (continuous save to resist - yes, this is a mental condition resisted with a physical save). Of particularly note is that this will ignore total cover, as written. In terms of power level, this is remarkably similar to Illusory Dragon and can be reasonably approximated as a level 9 spell as a result, because it is Concentrationless.
Vile Teleport: Vecna casts Misty Step with a punch after the teleport approximately bringing the spell up to third level (it has notable similarities to and differences from Thunder Step) and a healing rider approximately on par with level 7 Heal (self only and doesn't cure conditions and requires the damage to hurt a creature; if Vecna hurts himself with the teleport damage to guarantee the healing happens, the total healing is about level 6 (i.e. standard) Heal).
Dread Counterspell: the funniest one here, because if Vecna fights Vecna, it has some weird interactions, let me tell you. Vecna casts [spell]Counterspell] as a level 5 spell with a psychic damage rider if he succeeds in Counterspelling.
Fell Rebuke: This is genuinely, meaningfully distinct from spells we actually have in the game, and is more like an overpowered subclass ability than a spell.
Additionally, it is highly specious to focus solely on Counterspell in terms of Vecna interactions - in fact, both in Vecna vs. Vecna and Vecna vs. Liches matchups, the primary way it will come up when Vecna uses a spell-like is that he will completely ignore Globe of Invulnerability. Other issues can come up; for example, Flight of the Damned, Vile Teleport, Fell Rebuke, and Dread Counterspell all work completely fine while inside an Antimagic Field, as none of them are magical. This also means Dispel Magic won't do anything at all against Flight of the Damned's fear rider. In general, PCs have absolutely no way to know any of this, as all of these abilities genuinely appear to be magical (and for all they know, Vecna is casting all of his spells with Subtle Spell on and an ability to ignore M components, as NPCs often have). If I wrapped Vecna in an AMF and he, while still inside it, counterspelled my Revivify, I'd be rightfully frustrated as a player.
As a final note, he costs Orcus about as many hit points as 2 liches (very slightly more) to summon as a minion.
Using Vecna vs. Vecna match-ups to poke holes in the statblock is as sensible as getting invested in Goku vs. Superman nerd fights on the Internet. Vecna fighting himself is never going to happen, and if it does it's a case of the DM jacking off at the table and making everybody else watch. There's no reason to even consider it.
Do Vecna's spell-like abilities get past Globe of Invulnerability? Maybe! The DM can decide which spell protection measures work against what of Vecna's abilities. Personally I'd say Vile Teleport, Dread Counterspell and Fell Rebuke are all too flimsy to get past a Globe of Invulnerability, but unless you upcast the shit out of your Globe, you're not blocking Rotten Fate or Flight of the Damned. And if my players start giving me guff about how I'm twisting RAW to make my Vecna fight happen properly, they can suck eggs and/or zombies.
Again - this is Vecna. This isn't something you bust out on a whim one night against your fourth-level party of local kneebreakers. If you're fighting Vecna in a campaign, it's at the end of it as a climactic Final Battle where the DM will be returning everything to hell and back to suit their particular party anyways, and if you're fighting Vecna as a high-level one-shot one night then nobody cares because it's a one-shot. Do whatever's fun and tell stories about it later.
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My previous thread was mostly a PSA telling people that the blue banner ad at the top of the website that DDB throws at us seventeen times a second actually had some neat claimables in it this time. Discussion broke out concerning people's concerns with the new M3-style stat block employed by ol' Shrekna in that claimable, but it was promptly quashed.
Here's me un-quashing it.
Two main concerns arose in the pre-quashing discussion:
1.) New caster stat blocks do not use spells for their primary damage, and thus their primary damage cannot be Counterspelled.
2.) New caster stat blocks do not give a spellcasting class, a spellcasting level, or spell slots for the critter, making it harder to rejigger their spell lists.
As part of the discussion, and because I'm starting the thread so I get to have my say first nyah, my answer to these is as follows.
1.) Good. Counterspell is awful toxic garbage that should never, ever, EVER have seen print in its current form. A high-level party bullying Vecna senseless by Counterspelling his every single god damned play with a basic ***** third-level pick and turning the entire fight into "Park on this lich and Statler & Waldorf him until he cries and gives up" is not Tense, Thrilling Climactic Gameplay. It's moose piss. Counterspell should not be 100% always-works reliable, and it should not be nearly as widely available as it is. Players can enjoy bullying the DM and effectively removing the DM's ability to play spellcasters in combat all they like; that doesn't mean it's good for the game. Counterspell should be a class feature of the School of Abjuration, not a spell, and if it has to be a spell then it should always involve a roll to see if your magic jazz handsing can disrupt the enemy.
Also, if you've ever once in your life complained about the DM using Counterspell to turn off your cool plan and disrupt your play? Snap yourself with a rubber band, do twenty Hail Mary's, and take Counterspell off every single god damn character sheet you have because now you know what you've been doing to the DM every single time they try and present the party with a cool encounter against a powerful spellcasting enemy.
Regardless. Spellcasting enemies having basic damage options that can't be turned off by a player [REDACTED] every single round is a feature, not a bug. it's an improvement to the game, and maybe now players will actually respect enemy spellcasters the way the respect punchy martials or nasty monsters whose turns they can't turn off with one single [...] reaction that EVERY [...] BODY in the party always has.
2.) The issue I see is that people are trying to obey the PC generation rules for their monsters. An example given in the previous thread was the Evoker, which has two daily uses of Mage Armor per its new M3 stat block as well as an 'Arcane Burst' action that semi-simulates a Sculpted Fireball. The complaint was that previously a DM could alter the character's spell list on the fly, swapping spells around as was proper for a whateverth-level whichever. Twelfth-level wizard? No problem - switch spells around until you have a better spell list. Don't like 2/day Mage Armor because MA lasts eight hours and nobody would ever Dispel a caster's Mage Armor and force him to have to burn a turn re-upping it? Switch it to something else.
My take: DMs have no need to limit themselves to PC generation rules and the sooner they realize that the better they'll be as DMs. If you decide your Evoker knows Globe of Invulnerability because she's learned to protect herself from weenies whilst doing her job of Blowing Up Infantry? Just have her cast GoI. Decide on the spot that she gets one of them a day and don't worry about what else on her spell list you're replacing to do it. If that matters, it's something you can sort after the encounter if your Evoker is still alive, and if she's not then the players aren't really going to care if she cast an extra spell that didn't end up helping her in the end. If you-the-DM want to give a casty critter certain spells, give them those spells. Trust your judgment, remind yourself that you're not trying to screw your players over (unless you are, in which case stop it), and that whatever you're planning on will be fine. Actual game-ruining disasters of bad judgment are vanishingly rare, and casters' CRs in M3 don't take their innate casting into account anyways. All of a caster's Innate Casting stuff is basically side jobbies, their CR is calculated using their spell-like actions. So long as you're still primarily using those actions in a stand-up fight, you're golden. And if you're not? Well hell, you're the DM. Try shit, break stuff, and fix it in post. You don't have to run a perfect game, just a good one.
[REDACTED]
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Not discussing, just holding my thumbs up in agreement, Yurei. :)
Overall, I love the new Vecna. He’s exactly what I would want from the Lich - powerful when fighting, able to do some tricks to get out of the fight (since he is more a puppet master than fighter), and with some unique, powerful abilities that feel flavourful for the character.
I also agree with everything you said on Counterspell - and have banned it for both my players and NPCs as it does nothing but make people feel bad and lengthen fights (I’ll admit I play Counterspell tribal in MTG).
I have similar concerns about Dread Counterspell, and would probably make it have a recharge ability that triggers every time someone casts a spell (I do something similar with legendary resistances, since they’re a lazy game mechanic to make bosses artificially harder and feel bad to player characters). Vecna is an exception I think my players would allow to the “counterspells are banned for NPCs also” homerule, provided he wasn’t being played “I nope all three spellcasters each round.”
Vecna is a hundred thousand year old god of magic, secrets, and hatred/spite. Counterspell or Counterspell-like abilities make perfect sense for him, I have no issue with Vecna being able to foil the magic of mayfly mortal dabblers who think their arts are the equal of a true master of the arcane. The idea that somebody who's studied magic for two or three decades can just snap their fingers and autocounter frogmortoning Vecna's spellcasting, on the other hand? Significantly less believable.
That said, I kinda dig the idea of the recharge-on-doing thing. I knopw why Legendary Resistance exists, too many hard-CC effects in 5e to not give bosses a way to avoid being locked down and turned to haggis on the word 'Go', but Counterspell reactions only being available on every other cast is a neat notion. Gamey with no real in-world justification, but sometimes that's just how the role playing game gotta do, heh.
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At first I thought the stat block was a little underwhelming, but still seemed like a fun villain to play that wasnt too complicated. Then I noticed that he could regain 80 hit points as a bonus action and take 3 reactions per round and now I am fully on board. This seems bonkers.
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A. If they want to remove Counterspell from the game, they should just remove Counterspell from the game. What they're doing now is:
- screwing over Wizards by denying them new spells to learn
- screwing over characters with Mage Slayer, as if they needed the nerf
- screwing over Ancients Paladins
- encouraging players to think of monsters as stat blocks instead of as creatures that exist in the world.
B. And while I'm here, the text about how Vecna's magic dagger only does cool stuff for Vecna, and if you try to use it, you don't get the cool stuff, is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard. Are we really concerned that a Vecna-level party might get a magic dagger that's too strong? Come on. It makes no sense, feels bad, and isn't needed. I hate that crap.
C. Oh, and the Book of Vile Darkness in his chest that he's just too much of a good sport to use in combat? Come on. Now, I looked it up, and honestly it doesn't help him. Nothing it can do is stronger than his normal stuff. But the way it's phrased makes it sound like he's playing with one hand tied behind his back for absolutely no reason.
D. I also really think that when a monster is making 2 weapon attacks AND casting a spell AND teleporting AND countering 3 spells, all in one round, maybe there should be some flavor text about him being very fast. Maybe there should be something you can tell your players that will indicate that he gets a lot of actions. Just a thought.
Probably for the best that he gets used to that.
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Legit bust out laughing at that one. Well played, Kaboom. Well played.
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@yurei1453 @caerwyn_glyndwr I totally agree with you guys.
I agree on the counterspell point and feel like it should be tweaked. A third level spell slot countering a 9th level spell with a lucky roll is silly. I think countering higher level spells should require upcasting counterspell. I don't know w hat exactly the best way to change it would be. Maybe require upcasting to the original spell's level AND require a roll if it's a high enough level slot. Maybe just require the upcasting. But I feel it should be a bit more restrictive than it is. But, it's unlikely to be changing anytime soon. So giving spell casting enemies some non spell magical actions to use is good imo, just so long as they don't phase out spells 'too' much from stat blocks and make counterspell worthless.
I suppose I should also add that I drastically increase monster hit points, so the lower efficacy of legendary resistance and non-existence of counterspells do not result in a high level party just steamrolling a monster. 5e’s player damage output to monster HP totals can be a bit questionable, particularly at high player levels.
I also have one additional problem with the monster stat block - the free level 20 adventure they published has lair actions for Vecna; the monster stat block does not. Seems a bit silly to have made lair actions for the creature but not actually have them included in the stat block.
Well, he could just Dread Counterspell their Counterspell.
He shouldn't have to. Somebody trying to stop one of Vecna's spells with a third-level spell slot should be like a five year old with a Super Soaker trying to stop a SWAT trooper in full riot armor - as adorable as it is futile. This is a millenias-old archlich, breaking his concentration requires more than hucking magic spitballs at him.
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And yet, they can, provided he chooses to cast one of his actual spells instead of his totally-not-Finger-of-Death.
So as I'm still
refusingnot able to learn how to use this antiquated quoting system, you give two reasons that people oppose statblocks without spells, I have a third, it makes important NPC's empty husks. I don't have a problem with the special powers Vecna has that are not able to be countered, but taking away true spellcasting of high level spells is a net nerf to it.Also, as in the description, this is Vecna before it became a God of Undeath.
As an aside, I love counterspell. As a player and as a DM. And the Dread Counterspell is a 100 times more strong than what a PC is able to do, so your remark about snapping yourself with a rubber band is an odd choice as this guarantees this happening as it's an unstoppable counterspell. Making counter spelled lifesaving spells a guarantee.
This statblock is a powerful but empty, illogical farce. No access to Wish, and this is the strongest Archlich in existence? Even before it became a God? Please no.
Seems like a pretty reasonable security measure from someone who's top lieutenant betrayed him and cut out his hand and eye. Its Vecna's own paranoia that he doesn't allow his dagger to be used by someone else.
Well, first of all, I believe this stat block is pre-betrayal. Second, okay, let's say it does make sense -- still feels bad and isn't necessary. Third, it does allow others to use it, it just doesn't do its entropic decay thing.
A demonstration of quote snipping for you, Nech. Heh.
Vecna doesn't have Wish because giving a CR 26 archlich Wish is telling the DM "give your players the middle finger then defecate on their sheets". You simply cannot defeat a spellcaster that powerful who has unfettered access to Wish. My presumption is that Vecna used Wish and flubbed the roll sometime in the past, his days of Wishing are behind him. But if you want Vecna to cast the 'regular' version of the spell? Congrats - you now have a perfect justification for Vecna casting any eighth or lower spell you wish.
Again, Vecna has spells. He also has magical abilities that go beyond spellcasting because he's an ancient archlich and his magic is not going to be limited to what a doofus hedge apprentice can learn in six-odd months of adventuring. This idea that he's not a spellcaster because he doesn't have the word "twentieth-level wizard" on his statblock is bizarre and nonsensical. He's moved beyond the need to cast the way mortal adventurers do, and frankly the stuff in his statblock is basically there for combat purposes only. Outside of combat he can do whatever he bloody feels like because he's Vecna. "Oh no, Vecna doesn't have Scrying in his statblock! How will he keep tabs on the party?!"...said no DM ever. If Vecna cares enough about what you're doing to want to know, he'll know. And there's not all that bloody much you can do to stop him.
Really. I'm not seeing the fuss. If you want Vecna to cast a given spell, he casts the spell. What are your players gonna do, pull open this Vecna docket on DDB and complain you're not running him RAW? Throw a Cheetoh at that player, tell them to get their nose out of DM source material and back into their character sheet, and remind them who's running the game. if they want to run a campaign to the heights of PC power and build up to a climactic Vecna encounter, then they can decide how to run the big man themself. Until then, run Vecna the way you want to run him and hang the specifics.
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Some notes:
Additionally, it is highly specious to focus solely on Counterspell in terms of Vecna interactions - in fact, both in Vecna vs. Vecna and Vecna vs. Liches matchups, the primary way it will come up when Vecna uses a spell-like is that he will completely ignore Globe of Invulnerability. Other issues can come up; for example, Flight of the Damned, Vile Teleport, Fell Rebuke, and Dread Counterspell all work completely fine while inside an Antimagic Field, as none of them are magical. This also means Dispel Magic won't do anything at all against Flight of the Damned's fear rider. In general, PCs have absolutely no way to know any of this, as all of these abilities genuinely appear to be magical (and for all they know, Vecna is casting all of his spells with Subtle Spell on and an ability to ignore M components, as NPCs often have). If I wrapped Vecna in an AMF and he, while still inside it, counterspelled my Revivify, I'd be rightfully frustrated as a player.
As a final note, he costs Orcus about as many hit points as 2 liches (very slightly more) to summon as a minion.
Using Vecna vs. Vecna match-ups to poke holes in the statblock is as sensible as getting invested in Goku vs. Superman nerd fights on the Internet. Vecna fighting himself is never going to happen, and if it does it's a case of the DM jacking off at the table and making everybody else watch. There's no reason to even consider it.
Do Vecna's spell-like abilities get past Globe of Invulnerability? Maybe! The DM can decide which spell protection measures work against what of Vecna's abilities. Personally I'd say Vile Teleport, Dread Counterspell and Fell Rebuke are all too flimsy to get past a Globe of Invulnerability, but unless you upcast the shit out of your Globe, you're not blocking Rotten Fate or Flight of the Damned. And if my players start giving me guff about how I'm twisting RAW to make my Vecna fight happen properly, they can suck eggs and/or zombies.
Again - this is Vecna. This isn't something you bust out on a whim one night against your fourth-level party of local kneebreakers. If you're fighting Vecna in a campaign, it's at the end of it as a climactic Final Battle where the DM will be returning everything to hell and back to suit their particular party anyways, and if you're fighting Vecna as a high-level one-shot one night then nobody cares because it's a one-shot. Do whatever's fun and tell stories about it later.
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