They should have included a few paragraphs on basic lore for a number of worlds not just FR in the Spelljammer release. I mean they are charging premium prices so should provide a premium product. At the end of the day they took the original rules and just copied and pasted some info about ships. Copied a few sentences about rules but missed out the bits that made the rules make sense, and then stuck them in a 'book' saying the DM can make up all the bits in between. It is shockingly bad, and the writers all deserve getting kicked to the curb for it. Even the races - like Astral Elf - is a pathetic attempt. The copied some bits from High Elf, added some bits from Eladrin, and stuck the word Astral in front of the name. Nothing is original, or new, or exciting. It is just m'eh at best. There are so many things that they could and should be publishing, like books on Greyhawk, or Darksun or any of a number of other worlds that haven't yet been created.
So you want Wizards to give up on ever producing any non-Forgotten Realms books ever again because you need every single book in their yearly release cadence to be a new FR lore tome, or you want the company to increase its release cadence back to 3.5 levels and release several dozen books a year? is that correct?
Kalimar isn't FR. It was its own setting. I think OGL via Kenzer and Company. I'm not sure if Hasbro/WotC picked it up yet as it has Dragonlance from Margerate Weis Production who made the 3e setting for it.
----
Yurei; I think you are mixing up what is a square and what is a rectangle in the analogy of "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares."
Most of this lore for us (grognards?) is NOT Forgotten Realms Lore - It's Dungeons and Dragons Lore. It's core lore that in many cases stems from Greyhawk and the world of Oerth first and applies also in the Forgotten Realms and in several other settings besides. It is the base cornerstone/keystone lore of the dungeons and dragons experience as a whole and isn't as setting specific in the first place as you think it is. It is the common lore and meant for people who are not into worldbuiling on their own, or who are not already fans of newer worlds with their own lore and cannon.
-raises eyebrow.
I have the entire 3rd edition collection from Aug 2000 - 2008: every single book. I would have gotten pathfinder too, but 2008 was a bad year fiscally... along with every year since :P
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Where, in the multi-verse is this obsession with "you only want Forgotten Realms content!!!" coming from!? Nobody has said that; you are arguing against a point nobody has argued for. The "these books are thin on the ground as far as lore, worldbuilding and story goes" complaint applies more or less across the board: to every setting. If WotC brings out a Dragonlance book; then fill it with lore for the Dragonlance setting; ditto Dark Sun, Eberon, Greyhawk or Planescape!
All right.
Let's say people got what they're asking for in Spelljammer, and the majority of the book was an Epic Tale of a particular Spelljamming crew having a High stars Adventure. effectively a Spelljammer novel, just with more art and the occasional interjection to point out what the mechanics behind the group are so players can follow the story. You get information on the Starry Crown, the band's ship, and dossiers on each of the 'jammer's crew. At the end of the book you have read a splendid D&D themed High Stars Adventure, but there's absolutely nothing in that book insofar as ship stats, bestiary, rules plug-ins, the mechanics of Wildspace, or anything else. You get a stirring tale of a band of Heroes adventuring in the spaceways and nothing else.
Query: how well do you think that book would sell? How well do you think it'd work as a gaming manual?
Where, in the multi-verse is this obsession with "you only want Forgotten Realms content!!!" coming from!? Nobody has said that; you are arguing against a point nobody has argued for. The "these books are thin on the ground as far as lore, worldbuilding and story goes" complaint applies more or less across the board: to every setting. If WotC brings out a Dragonlance book; then fill it with lore for the Dragonlance setting; ditto Dark Sun, Eberon, Greyhawk or Planescape!
All right.
Let's say people got what they're asking for in Spelljammer, and the majority of the book was an Epic Tale of a particular Spelljamming crew having a High stars Adventure. effectively a Spelljammer novel, just with more art and the occasional interjection to point out what the mechanics behind the group are so players can follow the story. You get information on the Starry Crown, the band's ship, and dossiers on each of the 'jammer's crew. At the end of the book you have read a splendid D&D themed High Stars Adventure, but there's absolutely nothing in that book insofar as ship stats, bestiary, rules plug-ins, the mechanics of Wildspace, or anything else. You get a stirring tale of a band of Heroes adventuring in the spaceways and nothing else.
Query: how well do you think that book would sell? How well do you think it'd work as a gaming manual?
I mean the original Spelljammer books had both… so there’s no need for being so dramatic.
Ahh yes, the infamous lore vs. mechanics debate. This is an oldy but a goody. Lets take a look at Elves. Simple enough right? Wrong. The mechanics of elves are such that they appear to be just better humans with pointy ears. This is lore disguised as mechanics.. or is it mechanics disguised as lore. Too convoluted? Alright let me try this again. Humans simple right? Wrong they are just worse Elves with rounded ears.. simple yes? No, that is assuming much about both the humans, and the elves in my mileu. Oh I do love that word thank you Gary. What is the point of D&D? Is it to read book after book of rules er lore .. ohh geeze how can you tell them apart? No, the purpose of D&D is to give people a chance to hang out have fun and throw some dice... or don't throw dice.... hmm experience a shared delusion.. er fantasy? that sounds right. Than what is the point of Wizards of the Coast.. oh that's right to make money and create stuff, perhaps. Well, that can't be right they are Wizards after all! No their purpose must be to create magic for the world! OK enough talking like a lunatic. Everything past rule 1 is lore. EVERYTHING. The "rules" dictate how the mileu works. They dictate how all the Mileu work. This is why homebrewing is just a fact at nearly all tables. Because my Elves don't have to have darkvision, heck they don't even have to exist at all. So this argument that lore or rules keep one another from being printed is silly. They are just different ways of delivering lore. One is mechanical in nature with numbers etc. the other is less structured.. kind of. I would like to say the amount of "rules" and "lore" in mercers book is extensive on both counts. It's not his fault you can't see it. Also please for the love of god get your real world politics out of this beautiful space.
It shouldn't be a decision between lore and mechanics...
I cannot build a story without either, I choose to play D&D because there is well defined worlds, which I don't have the time in energy to make myself... D&D is not GURPS
I won't now be ordering Dragonlance because I'm expecting disappointment, I want there to Dragonlance in the Dragonlance setting book after the hack job of Spelljammer I don't think that WOTC deserve the trust of the community...
It’s a real shame because I loved Dragonlance. I got into it when I was working in London and bought a new novel every Monday as a treat for it being a Monday. But the last few releases here as well as the nonsense that one D&D appears has put me right off.
It’s a real shame because I loved Dragonlance. I got into it when I was working in London and bought a new novel every Monday as a treat for it being a Monday. But the last few releases here as well as the nonsense that one D&D appears has put me right off.
I've got similar feeling about the Planescape, after the lack of lore in the last few releases (spelljammer, fizzban), I really can't se how can it be good...
It’s a real shame because I loved Dragonlance. I got into it when I was working in London and bought a new novel every Monday as a treat for it being a Monday. But the last few releases here as well as the nonsense that one D&D appears has put me right off.
I'm still excited for Dragonlance. I will take whatever the new book offers for lore and then supplement it with the already-existing plethora of lore from the novels and earlier versions of the game.
I won't now be ordering Dragonlance because I'm expecting disappointment, I want there to Dragonlance in the Dragonlance setting book after the hack job of Spelljammer I don't think that WOTC deserve the trust of the community...
You could always just wait until it comes out, then look through it and make your decision at that time. I'm all for voting with your wallet.
Yeah, I preordered almost anything that isn't an adventurer even settings I don't plan to use but I'm not going to bother preordering dragonlance due to quality issues on the setting I actually like.
With Spelljammer and Planescape, one thing I just desperately wanted were more Stories, Lore, World-Building, etc. These are awesomely crazy settings that break away from the typical village leading to a Dungeon with Dragon. I don't want to have to purchase 5 different adventures to have a clear picture of the societies, politics, and potential for adventures. I get that a relative blank slate allows for creativity, but I am not JRR Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Lloyd Alexander, George RR Martin, Patrick Rothfuss, etc. I need a lot more than a blank slate to start with.
I'm getting worried that in their fear of problematic lore, Wizards gave up on the whole thing and can only create a wholly homegenized tub of curd.
Blank slates are difficult to work upon at first but can be freeing.
Extensive lore can be fun at first but can also be restricting.
Trying the find the balance is tricky. How much freedom to create do you want? How much predetermined foundation do you want? When digging for lore, how far do you need to go to get your footing before you land in concrete information?
As with most things, it's likely going to come down to practice to find what works for you.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
why do i want lore books or lore in the other books? put simply, i run a campaign based in a modified (heavily in some areas) FR setting. Yes I can create New Lore for my world without too much problem - I do somewhat regularly. However, I use a FR setting base because I don't have the time or interest to go whole cloth. I tried that and decided to move away from it years ago. To keep my campaign going however I need some sort of fairly regular updates on the general setting of the FRs so I can make my modifications. If everything is setting agnostic I'm forced to turn my version into a "whole Cloth" setting which is not what I want. Do I need huge amounts of lore generally? no. but I do need something more than the wiki's generally provide based on folks updates from the novels. Because the updated lore/history/ongoing events for the Realms is so skimpy (let alone what it is for other older campaign worlds) I'm one of the folks calling for some sort of increase in "lore" I understand why Spelljammer was relatively FR centric. After reading through some of the spelljammer wiki it was clear that that was the most fleshed out part of the Spell Jammer "universe" so it was a good place to start. I'm happy to see Mirt show up in the Academy piece as it gives me a tii\ny bit of lore to work with. I'm happy for the Dragonlancers out their since they have to be feeling this even more than I do as well as all those folks that like the various other settings D&D came out with in earlier versions. I know I'm not going to see the sorts of Faerunian update books we saw in 3e-4e but, especially now with Spelljammer to connect them is it really so much to ask for a book every year or 3 that updates what is happening in the various settings being supported? I can't speak for other lorehounds but for me that would be a gift from heaven.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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They should have included a few paragraphs on basic lore for a number of worlds not just FR in the Spelljammer release. I mean they are charging premium prices so should provide a premium product. At the end of the day they took the original rules and just copied and pasted some info about ships. Copied a few sentences about rules but missed out the bits that made the rules make sense, and then stuck them in a 'book' saying the DM can make up all the bits in between. It is shockingly bad, and the writers all deserve getting kicked to the curb for it. Even the races - like Astral Elf - is a pathetic attempt. The copied some bits from High Elf, added some bits from Eladrin, and stuck the word Astral in front of the name. Nothing is original, or new, or exciting. It is just m'eh at best. There are so many things that they could and should be publishing, like books on Greyhawk, or Darksun or any of a number of other worlds that haven't yet been created.
Kalimar isn't FR. It was its own setting. I think OGL via Kenzer and Company. I'm not sure if Hasbro/WotC picked it up yet as it has Dragonlance from Margerate Weis Production who made the 3e setting for it.
----
Yurei; I think you are mixing up what is a square and what is a rectangle in the analogy of "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares."
Most of this lore for us (grognards?) is NOT Forgotten Realms Lore - It's Dungeons and Dragons Lore. It's core lore that in many cases stems from Greyhawk and the world of Oerth first and applies also in the Forgotten Realms and in several other settings besides. It is the base cornerstone/keystone lore of the dungeons and dragons experience as a whole and isn't as setting specific in the first place as you think it is. It is the common lore and meant for people who are not into worldbuiling on their own, or who are not already fans of newer worlds with their own lore and cannon.
-raises eyebrow.
I have the entire 3rd edition collection from Aug 2000 - 2008: every single book. I would have gotten pathfinder too, but 2008 was a bad year fiscally... along with every year since :P
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
All right.
Let's say people got what they're asking for in Spelljammer, and the majority of the book was an Epic Tale of a particular Spelljamming crew having a High stars Adventure. effectively a Spelljammer novel, just with more art and the occasional interjection to point out what the mechanics behind the group are so players can follow the story. You get information on the Starry Crown, the band's ship, and dossiers on each of the 'jammer's crew. At the end of the book you have read a splendid D&D themed High Stars Adventure, but there's absolutely nothing in that book insofar as ship stats, bestiary, rules plug-ins, the mechanics of Wildspace, or anything else. You get a stirring tale of a band of Heroes adventuring in the spaceways and nothing else.
Query: how well do you think that book would sell? How well do you think it'd work as a gaming manual?
Please do not contact or message me.
Once again; you're arguing against something that nobody has asked for. Try again.
I mean the original Spelljammer books had both… so there’s no need for being so dramatic.
Ahh yes, the infamous lore vs. mechanics debate. This is an oldy but a goody.
Lets take a look at Elves. Simple enough right? Wrong. The mechanics of elves are such that they appear to be just better humans with pointy ears. This is lore disguised as mechanics.. or is it mechanics disguised as lore. Too convoluted? Alright let me try this again.
Humans simple right? Wrong they are just worse Elves with rounded ears.. simple yes? No, that is assuming much about both the humans, and the elves in my mileu. Oh I do love that word thank you Gary. What is the point of D&D? Is it to read book after book of rules er lore .. ohh geeze how can you tell them apart? No, the purpose of D&D is to give people a chance to hang out have fun and throw some dice... or don't throw dice.... hmm experience a shared delusion.. er fantasy? that sounds right. Than what is the point of Wizards of the Coast.. oh that's right to make money and create stuff, perhaps. Well, that can't be right they are Wizards after all! No their purpose must be to create magic for the world!
OK enough talking like a lunatic. Everything past rule 1 is lore. EVERYTHING. The "rules" dictate how the mileu works. They dictate how all the Mileu work. This is why homebrewing is just a fact at nearly all tables. Because my Elves don't have to have darkvision, heck they don't even have to exist at all. So this argument that lore or rules keep one another from being printed is silly. They are just different ways of delivering lore. One is mechanical in nature with numbers etc. the other is less structured.. kind of.
I would like to say the amount of "rules" and "lore" in mercers book is extensive on both counts. It's not his fault you can't see it.
Also please for the love of god get your real world politics out of this beautiful space.
It shouldn't be a decision between lore and mechanics...
I cannot build a story without either, I choose to play D&D because there is well defined worlds, which I don't have the time in energy to make myself... D&D is not GURPS
I won't now be ordering Dragonlance because I'm expecting disappointment, I want there to Dragonlance in the Dragonlance setting book after the hack job of Spelljammer I don't think that WOTC deserve the trust of the community...
Wizards of the Coast Feedback/Support
https://support.wizards.com/hc/en-us/requests/new
It’s a real shame because I loved Dragonlance. I got into it when I was working in London and bought a new novel every Monday as a treat for it being a Monday. But the last few releases here as well as the nonsense that one D&D appears has put me right off.
I've got similar feeling about the Planescape, after the lack of lore in the last few releases (spelljammer, fizzban), I really can't se how can it be good...
I'm still excited for Dragonlance. I will take whatever the new book offers for lore and then supplement it with the already-existing plethora of lore from the novels and earlier versions of the game.
You could always just wait until it comes out, then look through it and make your decision at that time. I'm all for voting with your wallet.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, I preordered almost anything that isn't an adventurer even settings I don't plan to use but I'm not going to bother preordering dragonlance due to quality issues on the setting I actually like.
Blank slates are difficult to work upon at first but can be freeing.
Extensive lore can be fun at first but can also be restricting.
Trying the find the balance is tricky. How much freedom to create do you want? How much predetermined foundation do you want? When digging for lore, how far do you need to go to get your footing before you land in concrete information?
As with most things, it's likely going to come down to practice to find what works for you.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
why do i want lore books or lore in the other books? put simply, i run a campaign based in a modified (heavily in some areas) FR setting. Yes I can create New Lore for my world without too much problem - I do somewhat regularly. However, I use a FR setting base because I don't have the time or interest to go whole cloth. I tried that and decided to move away from it years ago. To keep my campaign going however I need some sort of fairly regular updates on the general setting of the FRs so I can make my modifications. If everything is setting agnostic I'm forced to turn my version into a "whole Cloth" setting which is not what I want. Do I need huge amounts of lore generally? no. but I do need something more than the wiki's generally provide based on folks updates from the novels. Because the updated lore/history/ongoing events for the Realms is so skimpy (let alone what it is for other older campaign worlds) I'm one of the folks calling for some sort of increase in "lore" I understand why Spelljammer was relatively FR centric. After reading through some of the spelljammer wiki it was clear that that was the most fleshed out part of the Spell Jammer "universe" so it was a good place to start. I'm happy to see Mirt show up in the Academy piece as it gives me a tii\ny bit of lore to work with. I'm happy for the Dragonlancers out their since they have to be feeling this even more than I do as well as all those folks that like the various other settings D&D came out with in earlier versions. I know I'm not going to see the sorts of Faerunian update books we saw in 3e-4e but, especially now with Spelljammer to connect them is it really so much to ask for a book every year or 3 that updates what is happening in the various settings being supported? I can't speak for other lorehounds but for me that would be a gift from heaven.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.