There are only arcane and divine casters. Primal casters aren't a part of the game.
Eh, Primal is a spell list in One D&D, and it's useful to distinguish between 'mostly pulls from the Cleric list' and 'mostly pulls from the Druid list'.
Right, I'm looking ahead when I'm talking about Divine, Primal, and Arcane, and for how those classes will look in 1DnD. Ranger is a half caster with spells starting at level 1, and I imagine Paladin will be too. They'll probably look a lot alike.
Okay, I get it now. If that's the framework, then I think my preferred breakdown would be something like: Ranger powers involve places, Paladin powers involve people, and Gish powers involve things. Ranger would have subclasses based on what types of territories they defend, navigate, or conquer. The powers would simply reflect these regions, not require you to be in them. Paladin would have subclasses based on what groups of people they fight for, against, and alongside. Again, reflect, not require. And Gish would have subclasses based on what kinds of things they master, create, or collect.
I dunno, it's a little loose. A little weak. I tried to come up with some example ideas but I can tell I'm reaching.
I think those are pretty cool beginnings of ideas really! It definitely got my imagination going. Hmmm....
As a DM, Artificer is ok. I don't have a problem fitting it into the world or a campaign.
BUT
As a Player, I HATE Artificier. It is by far my least favorite class. It does nothing that I would want from a Gish class. I want to do Melee, but I don't want a robot dog and I don't want power armor. The crafting aspect is wasted on me as well.
Stegodorkus has summed up my desires for a Gish class pretty well.
If you don't want the robot dog, then... just... don't craft the robot dog? Same statement goes for Stegodorkus. It's not like you stop being a Battle Smith, once you lose your Steel Defender. As for the D10 hit die and fighting styles, don't forget that the trade-off is that you become a magical Fighter. Specifically, one whose AC far exceeds that of a standard Fighter (especially thanks to the Enhanced Defense and Repulsion Shield Infusions, and the Shield spell), and whose combat versatility is far more Gish in nature than what most Eldritch Knights can even dream of possessing (especially due to its multiclass synergy with Wizards). Now, if you're really jonesing for a fighting style, there's no saying that you can't dip into a class that provides them, or simply pick up Fighting Initiate.
Besides, if you're still worried about your sturdiness, just go Battle Smith 3-5/Abjuration Wizard X, and pick up Armor of Agathys through whatever means you desire, like I've stated before. Who needs a d10 hit die, when you can be walking around with a refillable Arcane Ward, layered over up to 45 points of "thorns-esque" Temp HP? Slap on a Mirror Image or two, and it'll be a wonder if your "squishy mage" ever even takes more than a few legit scratches per combat. Bonus points for the fact that Artificers round up when considering multiclass spell slots, rather than round down. As such, even if you go Battle Smith 5/Wizard 15, you'll still only be about two levels shy of having the same spell slots as a level 20 Wizard, which is something that most other martial Gishes can only be jealous of.
Also, no saying you can't reflavor Artificers, and make them a more "magical" class because of it. For example, maybe your character's a Runecrafter, who bestows his armor and weapons with magical sigils that grant them arcane power. Maybe your character's an Animist, who "awakens the soul" dwelling deep within the items he carries. The traditional Enchanter's always a classic mage-esque method of granting unique arcane effects to your gear. Hell, I've even got a Luxcrafter who utilizes a jeweler's kit, in order to craft enchanted gems that power his equipment. How you flavor your character is entirely up to you as the player. "Flavor-brew" is a legit feature of the game, thanks to Tasha's Guide, so it's your own fault if your character isn't "magical" enough for you.
Hell, if all else fails, here's another Arcane Martial Gish for you: Hexblade/Sorcerer Multiclass. Want more Arcane? Level up your Sorcerer side, for more Metamagics and spell slots. Want more Martial? Level up the Hexblade side, for more melee Invocations, through Pact of the Blade. Just like Artificer, you get access to Half Plate and a weapon or two that can smack people around via your caster stat. Yeah, you're slightly squishier than the Artificer/Wizard multiclass I mentioned earlier, but Sorlocks are the ultimate in caster versatility, due to being able to constantly convert Warlock spell slots into Sorcery Points, to fuel your Metamagic. Since you get your Warlock slots back on a Short Rest, you can essentially gain dozens of Sorcery Points this way, within the first several hours of being awake. Not enough spells per day, due to burning them all on Sorcery Points? Convert those points back into Sorcerer spell slots, and let the Fireballs fly.
You also don't lose out on too much of the martial prowess, thanks to Hexblade's Curse, Hex Warrior, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker (which is essentially a second Hex Warrior for your Pact Weapon), and even the ability to Eldritch Smite with a crossbow, thanks to being able to go CBE/SS with an Improved Pact Weapon. Also, kinda hard to worry about your squishy nature, when you can constantly "Subtle Spell Forcecage" any major threat you come across. Hell, if you go Shadow Sorcerer, you can keep spending two of your nigh-infinite Sorcery Points, in order to constantly slap Darkness onto your sword or armor. Since you're the only one who can see within your magical Darkness, you get constant Advantage to all attacks, while your opponents are constantly attacking at Disadvantage. Add on another cast or two of Mirror Image, and your enemies might as well not even bother swinging.
I'm a big fan of reflavoring things in DnD. I'll stretch the idea to the limits and encourage my players to. And sure, I could just not build a robot pet, but I paid for it already. It cost a class feature. A pretty big one. There's no trading that for something I wanted more.
And like I've said, every time someone mentions how an actual Class would be nice, everyone comes out with a dozen subclasses or multiclass combos that they think are the same thing, or better. But why should a subclass that isn't what I want be considered equal? Why should I have to multiclass to get something just close to what the Paladin and Ranger do perfectly already? There's a template right there for a better Class, one that could gather up all of the subclasses that don't really fit where they are.
I don't want to play Iron Man, no matter how it's flavored. I don't want to play a Warlock/Sorcerer with all the baggage they have, just to get a character that is nothing like what I imagined. It might be strong, but it's not what I wanted. In fact, I've personally said many times that I don't care if it's strong. I don't want smites or metamagic or invocations. I want an Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, or Bladesinger that fulfills the fantasy they were trying to but didn't have the tools for.
It's strange how much pushback there is on this concept. It seems like an obvious addition to the Classes to me. There's a gap there that they keep trying to fill by wedging it into classes that weren't made for it. To me, it seems like better design to just make the actual Class. But as soon as someone asks for it, people stumble over themselves to throw out the most options that aren't it.
It's not like the existence of a new class would ruin anyone else's fun. No one would have to play it. Just like I don't want to play a Sorcerer. But I don't want them to get rid of it either. I know other people like it and that's good enough for me. But hey, I'm not going to convince WotC to add a new Class anyway. I'm just wishing out loud.
<snip> And sure, I could just not build a robot pet, but I paid for it already. It cost a class feature. A pretty big one. There's no trading that for something I wanted more. <snip>
100% This right here.
Plus, all the reflavoring in the world can't change the mechanics of Artificier into a class I want to play.
Reflecting on my hypothetical Gish (which clearly isn't the original Gish, so I'm going to call it the Gist, as in "-ologist," and you can't stop me), there's really only two strong concepts in there that I could see.
Gist subclass 1: Curse Breaker. These Gists train to disable dangerous artifacts, undo harmful magical effects, and hide away anything that can't be undone. Some of them make a living solving magical problems for coin. Others are employed by nations and factions to counteract enemy arcana. Their powers allow them to shield allies and shut down enemies, particularly when it comes to magical effects. Their martial training is necessary to remain flexible and to operate under antimagic, which is one of their defining abilities, but they also use magic because they're pragmatic and knowledgeable about it.
Gist subclass 2: Destiny Shaper. These Gists study prophecy, past and future. They are diverse in their ambitions, some choosing to defy fate, others to ensure certain projected outcomes, and some seeking only to use gathered knowledge of these events to further inform their understanding of prophecy itself. Their powers let them divine information, as well as influence hearts and minds. They use martial tactics and spells learned from history, allowing them to blend in or stand out as befits their mission.
That would be sufficient for the core rules, but I don't think there's enough meat on these bones to make up many more subclasses. Also, I'm not fully convinced I didn't just describe a Wizard and a Bard.
I mean it's not just pattern completion, battlemages are extremely common in other forms of fiction. Outside the unique space D&D occupies, it's almost more the norm to see characters like that, as opposed to WOTC's hard lines between magic and not-magic.
Completely disagree that this is just a matter of checking boxes.
I don't want to play Iron Man, no matter how it's flavored. I don't want to play a Warlock/Sorcerer with all the baggage they have, just to get a character that is nothing like what I imagined. It might be strong, but it's not what I wanted. In fact, I've personally said many times that I don't care if it's strong. I don't want smites or metamagic or invocations. I want an Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, or Bladesinger that fulfills the fantasy they were trying to but didn't have the tools for.
<Snip>
Okay, so you want a Bladesinger that deals elemental damage with its magical attacks, and you don't care about the build's power. Sooo... Why not go with a Bladesinger, who is equipped with a Flametongue? Why not play an Eldritch Knight, that's wielding an Ice Brand, and/or chucks a few Lightning Javelins? Why not an Arcane Archer multiclass, that casts Flame Arrows? Why not ask your DM for a homebrew weapon that uses you caster stat for attack/damage rolls? You can even go Arcane Domain Cleric, and simply believe in Magic. You don't need anything divinely flavored, to play Cleric nowadays.
The reason why people keep recommending what you don't like, is because what you don't like is capable of providing you with everything that you want, so long as you work with what's provided. You're asking for everything that the Paladin can provide, but minus the oath. Everything that the Artificer provides, but without the gadgets and equipment. All the elemental prowess the Wizard can provide, but it has to come naturally to him, without even studying. Everything that the tools at your disposal can provide, but minus the tools at your disposal.
Hell, I got one more pair of recommendations, to help appease you: Ranger or Druid. No subclass. No frills. Ranger. Or. Druid. You want elemental attacks? Flame Blade. Lightning Arrow. Elemental spells out the wazoo. Want that Gish feel, when it comes to using your caster stat for melee damage? Shillelagh. Both have ways to gain easy access to it. Ranger even has that d10 hit die and Fighting Style you so desperately crave. Worried about armor for Druid? Serpent Scale Armor, from Candlekeep Mysteries, paired with a wooden shield. Want it to not be "nature based?" Reflavor the Ranger into being a wandering spellsword, who just naturally channels the arcane elements into his attacks and techniques. Flavor is free, so rework the flavor to fit your needs. What subclass are you going with? Whatever the heck you decide, my man. Multiclass or solo class. It's up to you.
At the very least, you need to ask for something that can't be provided by the current system. Ask for a trap-based class, or a character who gains strength by being literally possessed by demons. Ask for a class that's specifically designed around its culinary expertise, and their ability to destroy their enemies with just the right amount of nutmeg and coriander. If all you're asking for is a Gish, and you're provided with about a half-dozen different flavors of Gish, in a system where it's surprisingly easy to build and/or flavor a Gish into existence, then maybe it's time to realize that maybe, just maybe, there's a chance that what you're looking for is already there, if you're willing to accept what you see.
I don't want to play Iron Man, no matter how it's flavored. I don't want to play a Warlock/Sorcerer with all the baggage they have, just to get a character that is nothing like what I imagined. It might be strong, but it's not what I wanted. In fact, I've personally said many times that I don't care if it's strong. I don't want smites or metamagic or invocations. I want an Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, or Bladesinger that fulfills the fantasy they were trying to but didn't have the tools for.
<Snip>
Okay, so you want a Bladesinger that deals elemental damage with its magical attacks, and you don't care about the build's power. Sooo... Why not go with a Bladesinger, who is equipped with a Flametongue? Why not play an Eldritch Knight, that's wielding an Ice Brand, and/or chucks a few Lightning Javelins? Why not an Arcane Archer multiclass, that casts Flame Arrows? Why not ask your DM for a homebrew weapon that uses you caster stat for attack/damage rolls? You can even go Arcane Domain Cleric, and simply believe in Magic. You don't need anything divinely flavored, to play Cleric nowadays.
The reason why people keep recommending what you don't like, is because what you don't like is capable of providing you with everything that you want, so long as you work with what's provided. You're asking for everything that the Paladin can provide, but minus the oath. Everything that the Artificer provides, but without the gadgets and equipment. All the elemental prowess the Wizard can provide, but it has to come naturally to him, without even studying. Everything that the tools at your disposal can provide, but minus the tools at your disposal.
Hell, I got one more pair of recommendations, to help appease you: Ranger or Druid. No subclass. No frills. Ranger. Or. Druid. You want elemental attacks? Flame Blade. Lightning Arrow. Elemental spells out the wazoo. Want that Gish feel, when it comes to using your caster stat for melee damage? Shillelagh. Both have ways to gain easy access to it. Ranger even has that d10 hit die and Fighting Style you so desperately crave. Worried about armor for Druid? Serpent Scale Armor, from Candlekeep Mysteries, paired with a wooden shield. Want it to not be "nature based?" Reflavor the Ranger into being a wandering spellsword, who just naturally channels the arcane elements into his attacks and techniques. Flavor is free, so rework the flavor to fit your needs. What subclass are you going with? Whatever the heck you decide, my man. Multiclass or solo class. It's up to you.
At the very least, you need to ask for something that can't be provided by the current system. Ask for a trap-based class, or a character who gains strength by being literally possessed by demons. Ask for a class that's specifically designed around its culinary expertise, and their ability to destroy their enemies with just the right amount of nutmeg and coriander. If all you're asking for is a Gish, and you're provided with about a half-dozen different flavors of Gish, in a system where it's surprisingly easy to build and/or flavor a Gish into existence, then maybe it's time to realize that maybe, just maybe, there's a chance that what you're looking for is already there, if you're willing to accept what you see.
But I didn't ask for any of those things you listed. I never mentioned my own character concepts at all. Everyone keeps guessing what I want to play, but I haven't said any specifics because it's not about that. I don't need advice on how to create one character concept with what we have. I'm capable of doing that.
I'm trying to focus on the basic template of a broad Class that could make a million character concepts. A Class where some of the current subclasses would function better for what they are trying to do. One that would be the natural choice for anyone with a gish idea. That is much more useful to the community as a whole than helping me with a handful of character concepts
All I've been talking about is a Class with the basic design template that Ranger and Paladin has. Not any of their unique abilities, just a template of progression. One that is proven to be balanced because it exists with two other spell lists. I'm only asking for the same design pattern to exist for the Arcane spells. Which is the one thing that none of the current classes or subclasses provide. That class does not exist. But it easily could. And it would be useful to not just me, but millions of players.
Someone could probably come up with a bunch of ways to make a trap character, or a demon powered character, or a chef character with the tools that already exist too. If someone asked for help creating one with what is available, I would be happy to help them with ideas. But if they asked for a new Class to exist for them, I would support that too. Especially if it fills a gap in the templates we have. There's nothing to lose but options.
I know that tone is hard to read in text posts. But it feels like something I've said is aggravating you with this. It wasn't my intent at all. I honestly can't figure out why this class concept in particular would bother anyone. It's a very common fantasy theme people want. And there is no class template for it even though we have one for the Divine and Primal spell lists (as they will be in 1DnD). I genuinely don't understand why it's so contentious.
When I consider this question, what pops in my mind is: We want a Gish to basically be Vilgefortz. Right? Fast, deadly, cool, powerful.
The problem, of course, is that Vilgefortz is a full mage - but fights as a fighter, and does so better than (basically) any fighter could.
I play an eldritch knight, and she's hella cool, but she runs out of spell slots, and then she's just a less-powerful fighter. On the other hand, of course, if the didn't run out of spell slots, she'd instead be just a more-powerful fighter.
I think - using eldritch knight as a template - the problem could be solved with a couple more spell slots, and some additional custom built spells for the eldritch knight to play around with. A few buffs with duration rather than concentration, a few more bonus or reaction spells. To me, that would be all it takes.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Pain for the DM's carefully crafted boss battle maybe?
Suddenly, the boss is surrounded by an army of minions. Can't smite them all, now can ya?
...But yeah. Playing a non-multiclass Paladin can be a pain, when it comes to trying to be a Gish with them. Sure, they're decent at dealing damage with a blade, but being a MAD class can suck. Plus, if they cast any spells, they'll be eating away at their "smite slots." Furthermore, if they didn't go with the Blessed Warrior fighting style, they'll likely not be all that powerful at ranged combat.
...Uuuuuuntil they take one whole level of Hexblade.
Suddenly, all that beautiful Gishness just lines right up for them. Who cares about being MAD? All their melee attacks are now done with their Charisma, instead of whatever else they were using. Worried about consuming spell slots? Take a quick nap, and get your spare Smite Slots back in an hour. Ranged Combat? I believe you meant to say "Eldritch Blast Shooting Gallery." Bonus points for the fact that you can pick up the Eldritch Smite Invocation (should you invest more than a level or two in Warlock), cast one of your Smite spells, pair those with your Divine Smite, and unlock the game-shattering potential of the Legendary Triple S M I T E ! ! !
Adding to this, if you get improved pact weapon, and use a spear, with polearm master, and sentinel...
Your Hex-Paladin can have weapon & shield, cast EB, smite, 2 attacks, bonus damage, tank, only need to rely on Chr & Con...
I am kind of annoyed by this thread, The "Arcane Gish" is the most over represented melee caster in the game.
((BTW Kind of hate the term Arcane Gish as it's a Gythyanki specific class from ages ago and was more a "Rogue/Wizard Necromancer" than a true Arcane warrior.))
Using terms from One D&D:
Magic & Melee Classes/Subclasses curranty with main casting stat:
8 No Multi-class required Gish options. ((Not counting the amazing Multi-class builds ie Hexadin, or the Fighter/Rogue/Bladesinger))
And you want more Arcane Warrior builds? I Think we need more Primal & Divine options. I would love to see them bring back the Dwarf Vindicator (past: Priest/fighter, now Barbarian /Bard)
Quote from The Complete Dwarf (AD&D)
Vindicator The Vindicator is imbued with the spiritual power of his deity. When this power is manifested, he becomes a fearless and powerful warrior. He is able to enter a rage similar to that experienced by Battleragers; his face becomes contorted and he grinds his teeth together. See Battlerager for details concerning changes in appearance.A Vindicator must have a minimum Strength of 15, Intelligence no higher than 10, and Wisdom no higher than 14.
Barred: Vindicators cannot belong to any religion that is concerned with peace or love. They worship gods of war, death, elemental forces, lightning, fire, strength, or thunder.
Role: They are often the most potent force of a religion, expected to give their lives for their religion. Most are well aware that their lives are likely to be short, though sometimes glorious.
Secondary Skills: Vindicators may choose any secondary skill.
Weapon Proficiencies: They must be proficient in battle axe (one or two handed) and warhammer, regardless of the restrictions imposed by their religion. They cannot start play with any ranged weapon other than warhammer, and may not have any other ranged weapon proficiency.
Equipment: Vindicators must start play with a battle axe and a warhammer. They may wear any type of armor, but it must be slightly larger in size than normal to accommodate their increased size when in a killing rage (see Battlerager).
Distinctive Appearance: They usually have facial and body tattoos.
Special Benefits: Vindicators gain all the special benefits of Battleragers, but are not allowed to specialize in any weapon.Because of their higher Wisdom, Vindicators are usually able to exert more control over their own actions.
Special Hindrances: Vindicators have the same hindrances as Battleragers, except that members of their own religion do not react to them with a negative penalty.When enraged, Vindicators cannot cast any spells, but may benefit from spells cast prior to becoming enraged.
Wealth Options: Vindicators start with 5d4x10 gp.
Give us more Divine and Primal options, and then maybe arcane gish, but looking at what the OP really wants, They want to cast 2 spells a turn, and not actually make a Arcane Warrior who smites a lot. Which we can already do with a Hexadin Smite build. (My preferred is also a Spear & Shield Tank)
*Critical Role: Blood Hunter Caster option, semi official setting, One D&D may turn it into an official setting or CR might go back to Pathfinder... we will see.
All I've been talking about is a Class with the basic design template that Ranger and Paladin has. Not any of their unique abilities, just a template of progression. One that is proven to be balanced because it exists with two other spell lists. I'm only asking for the same design pattern to exist for the Arcane spells.
The spell lists are far from equal, though. Sure, the Ranger and Paladin spell lists are balanced for a Gish character, but I don't think you're here asking for spells like Speak with Animals or Sanctuary on your character. The arcane spell list is less Beast Bond, and more Shield. Not so much Conjure Barrage, but Fireball instead.
I disagree that the much better spell list should be made easier to access on a martial character. To do that, you've got to deal with multiclassing (what is it for, anyway?), or a slower spell progression in the EK, or being limited to Pact Magic, or any of the other existing ways to fulfill that character fantasy, but with some drawback. I think that's fine.
When I consider this question, what pops in my mind is: We want a Gish to basically be Vilgefortz. Right? Fast, deadly, cool, powerful.
The problem, of course, is that Vilgefortz is a full mage - but fights as a fighter, and does so better than (basically) any fighter could.
You're talking about the guy from The Witcher who kept throwing his sword? He was very cool, but like... He was using magic, and then he ran out of spell slots and got curb stomped by a dedicated swordsman. I don't think your comparison quite works.
I am kind of annoyed by this thread, The "Arcane Gish" is the most over represented melee caster in the game.
((BTW Kind of hate the term Arcane Gish as it's a Gythyanki specific class from ages ago and was more a "Rogue/Wizard Necromancer" than a true Arcane warrior.))
Using terms from One D&D:
Magic & Melee Classes/Subclasses curranty with main casting stat:
Again, I'm not talking about the various ways you could play an arcane martial/caster currently. I'm just saying it would make more sense, give more versatility, and work cleaner if there was one Class that is built like the Ranger or Paladin. Then most of those Subclasses you listed can all go under the new class instead.
The Paladin has 9 subclasses to make a divine martial caster. And the Cleric has more subclasses to do it too.
The Ranger has 8 subclasses to make a primal martial caster. And some druids fit the bill too.
You could probably come up with a number of more complex ways to do it too. Any character concept can find a build that somewhat works.
All I'm saying is that many of the subclasses that somewhat work for an arcane martial caster would work better under an actual Class like the Paladin and Ranger have. So they aren't scattered all over the place, and they could be more consistent. I genuinely don't understand why this actually annoys people to just talk about restructuring classes and their subclasses into a configuration that makes more sense.
(I'm sorry I don't know why it formatted like that or how to fix it)
All I've been talking about is a Class with the basic design template that Ranger and Paladin has. Not any of their unique abilities, just a template of progression. One that is proven to be balanced because it exists with two other spell lists. I'm only asking for the same design pattern to exist for the Arcane spells.
The spell lists are far from equal, though. Sure, the Ranger and Paladin spell lists are balanced for a Gish character, but I don't think you're here asking for spells like Speak with Animals or Sanctuary on your character. The arcane spell list is less Beast Bond, and more Shield. Not so much Conjure Barrage, but Fireball instead.
I disagree that the much better spell list should be made easier to access on a martial character. To do that, you've got to deal with multiclassing (what is it for, anyway?), or a slower spell progression in the EK, or being limited to Pact Magic, or any of the other existing ways to fulfill that character fantasy, but with some drawback. I think that's fine.
Then limit the school selection. They did that with the 1DnD Ranger. It has access to all but one school of Primal spells. The Eldritch Knight is limited to only a couple schools. We are used to that. A hypothetical arcane martial caster built like a Ranger or Paladin would also be limited to a half caster progression and level 5 spells max.
When I consider this question, what pops in my mind is: We want a Gish to basically be Vilgefortz. Right? Fast, deadly, cool, powerful.
The problem, of course, is that Vilgefortz is a full mage - but fights as a fighter, and does so better than (basically) any fighter could.
I play an eldritch knight, and she's hella cool, but she runs out of spell slots, and then she's just a less-powerful fighter. On the other hand, of course, if the didn't run out of spell slots, she'd instead be just a more-powerful fighter.
I think - using eldritch knight as a template - the problem could be solved with a couple more spell slots, and some additional custom built spells for the eldritch knight to play around with. A few buffs with duration rather than concentration, a few more bonus or reaction spells. To me, that would be all it takes.
If you want a full mage that fights like a fighter, go Battle Smith 3-5/Abjuration Wizard X. You'll essentially be a full caster, but you can fight like a martial. Slap on Armor of Agathys from either a racial feature or Magic Initiate, and you'll be able to add even more tank to your tankiness. The only cost is that you'll be one or two levels behind a full-on Wizard, when it comes to spell slots. In exchange, well... who's gonna be able to land a decent hit?
And before you ask, the Steel Defender's optional. You don't have to build it, if you don't want to. It's just a nice little bonus to keep around.
You're talking about the guy from The Witcher who kept throwing his sword? He was very cool, but like... He was using magic, and then he ran out of spell slots and got curb stomped by a dedicated swordsman. I don't think your comparison quite works.
Whaddaya mean? He works perfectly.
Vilgefortz' defeat by ... um, that guy, I forget his name ... is meant to show us his weakness - which isn't running out of spell slots, but arrogance.
But anyways, it's not about that fight, it's about the fighting style: Being a mage who channels magic to be all but invincible in melee.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I am kind of annoyed by this thread, The "Arcane Gish" is the most over represented melee caster in the game.
((BTW Kind of hate the term Arcane Gish as it's a Gythyanki specific class from ages ago and was more a "Rogue/Wizard Necromancer" than a true Arcane warrior.))
Using terms from One D&D:
Magic & Melee Classes/Subclasses curranty with main casting stat:
8 No Multi-class required Gish options. ((Not counting the amazing Multi-class builds ie Hexadin, or the Fighter/Rogue/Bladesinger))
And you want more Arcane Warrior builds? I Think we need more Primal & Divine options. I would love to see them bring back the Dwarf Vindicator (past: Priest/fighter, now Barbarian /Bard)
Give us more Divine and Primal options, and then maybe arcane gish, but looking at what the OP really wants, They want to cast 2 spells a turn, and not actually make a Arcane Warrior who smites a lot. Which we can already do with a Hexadin Smite build. (My preferred is also a Spear & Shield Tank)
You count subclasses for arcane options, but subclasses don't count for primal and divine options?
Divine has every paladin subclass, war cleric, celestial bladelock, and a whole bunch of cleric domains.
Primal has every ranger subclass, ancients paladin, moon druid, and nature domain cleric.
The issue of relying on subclasses in 5e, is that 90% of the class power is coming from the main class, and the subclass is more a bit of flavouring sprinkled on top. A ranger or paladin will always make a better magic warrior than an eldritch knight or bladesinger. Because their magic is actually integrated into what they do. Their spell lists are tailored to their style of gameplay. Meanwhile subclasses like hexblade pose an issue due to being very thematically restricted. A lenient DM will let you rewrite this, but a stricter one won't. Hard to make an elemental themed swordmage using hexblade if the DM says you're not allowed to do that, and you must be shadow themed with a magic weapon from the Raven Queen.
Just giving the eldritch knight the smite/strike spells from paladin and ranger would make me far more satisfied with how it plays. I wouldn't even care is it lost two attacks in the process.
My current character is my attempt at flavouring an artificer armorer into an elemental earth themed swordmage. My DM has let me take thunderous smite despite it not being on the same spell list. And overall I'm enjoying it. However it's pretty clear it's not optimal. I'm having to rely on DM kindness just to get spells which suit a swordmage, and using a class which a chunk of DM's just ban outright for not suiting the setting.
8 No Multi-class required Gish options. ((Not counting the amazing Multi-class builds ie Hexadin, or the Fighter/Rogue/Bladesinger))
LMFAO THANK YOU.
Feels like unless they make a class literally called Gish people won't be happy. And then they still won't be happy because it's too obvious or some irrelevantly annoying non-issue.
Bladesinger alone should be enough to stop this conversation from happening.
8 No Multi-class required Gish options. ((Not counting the amazing Multi-class builds ie Hexadin, or the Fighter/Rogue/Bladesinger))
LMFAO THANK YOU.
Feels like unless they make a class literally called Gish people won't be happy. And then they still won't be happy because it's too obvious or some irrelevantly annoying non-issue.
Bladesinger alone should be enough to stop this conversation from happening.
Completely agree with this. It's kinda why I think that what Stegadorkus is asking for is a bit superfluous. Why would we need more Gish classes/subclasses, when we already have so many? Especially since he seems to be asking for a strictly Arcane Gish, which is currently dominating the Gish market already. I'll admit that we could probably use another official Int-based class in general, to help balance out how few classes there are that rely on Int. However, if you accept Blood Hunter as a playable class, then even that slot is filled nicely enough. Is it a shame that there's no Int-based Paladin or Ranger? Possibly, depending on how you feel about it. Is it a necessary thing to add to the game, considering how many Arcane Gishes there already are, and considering how, whenever someone talks about wanting a "a full spellcaster, but with a sword," or "a mage who is all but invincible in melee," they seem to keep trying to recreate/reinvent the exact same multiclass that I've been mentioning this entire time? Probably not too necessary.
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I think those are pretty cool beginnings of ideas really! It definitely got my imagination going. Hmmm....
If you don't want the robot dog, then... just... don't craft the robot dog? Same statement goes for Stegodorkus. It's not like you stop being a Battle Smith, once you lose your Steel Defender. As for the D10 hit die and fighting styles, don't forget that the trade-off is that you become a magical Fighter. Specifically, one whose AC far exceeds that of a standard Fighter (especially thanks to the Enhanced Defense and Repulsion Shield Infusions, and the Shield spell), and whose combat versatility is far more Gish in nature than what most Eldritch Knights can even dream of possessing (especially due to its multiclass synergy with Wizards). Now, if you're really jonesing for a fighting style, there's no saying that you can't dip into a class that provides them, or simply pick up Fighting Initiate.
Besides, if you're still worried about your sturdiness, just go Battle Smith 3-5/Abjuration Wizard X, and pick up Armor of Agathys through whatever means you desire, like I've stated before. Who needs a d10 hit die, when you can be walking around with a refillable Arcane Ward, layered over up to 45 points of "thorns-esque" Temp HP? Slap on a Mirror Image or two, and it'll be a wonder if your "squishy mage" ever even takes more than a few legit scratches per combat. Bonus points for the fact that Artificers round up when considering multiclass spell slots, rather than round down. As such, even if you go Battle Smith 5/Wizard 15, you'll still only be about two levels shy of having the same spell slots as a level 20 Wizard, which is something that most other martial Gishes can only be jealous of.
Also, no saying you can't reflavor Artificers, and make them a more "magical" class because of it. For example, maybe your character's a Runecrafter, who bestows his armor and weapons with magical sigils that grant them arcane power. Maybe your character's an Animist, who "awakens the soul" dwelling deep within the items he carries. The traditional Enchanter's always a classic mage-esque method of granting unique arcane effects to your gear. Hell, I've even got a Luxcrafter who utilizes a jeweler's kit, in order to craft enchanted gems that power his equipment. How you flavor your character is entirely up to you as the player. "Flavor-brew" is a legit feature of the game, thanks to Tasha's Guide, so it's your own fault if your character isn't "magical" enough for you.
Hell, if all else fails, here's another Arcane Martial Gish for you: Hexblade/Sorcerer Multiclass. Want more Arcane? Level up your Sorcerer side, for more Metamagics and spell slots. Want more Martial? Level up the Hexblade side, for more melee Invocations, through Pact of the Blade. Just like Artificer, you get access to Half Plate and a weapon or two that can smack people around via your caster stat. Yeah, you're slightly squishier than the Artificer/Wizard multiclass I mentioned earlier, but Sorlocks are the ultimate in caster versatility, due to being able to constantly convert Warlock spell slots into Sorcery Points, to fuel your Metamagic. Since you get your Warlock slots back on a Short Rest, you can essentially gain dozens of Sorcery Points this way, within the first several hours of being awake. Not enough spells per day, due to burning them all on Sorcery Points? Convert those points back into Sorcerer spell slots, and let the Fireballs fly.
You also don't lose out on too much of the martial prowess, thanks to Hexblade's Curse, Hex Warrior, Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker (which is essentially a second Hex Warrior for your Pact Weapon), and even the ability to Eldritch Smite with a crossbow, thanks to being able to go CBE/SS with an Improved Pact Weapon. Also, kinda hard to worry about your squishy nature, when you can constantly "Subtle Spell Forcecage" any major threat you come across. Hell, if you go Shadow Sorcerer, you can keep spending two of your nigh-infinite Sorcery Points, in order to constantly slap Darkness onto your sword or armor. Since you're the only one who can see within your magical Darkness, you get constant Advantage to all attacks, while your opponents are constantly attacking at Disadvantage. Add on another cast or two of Mirror Image, and your enemies might as well not even bother swinging.
I'm a big fan of reflavoring things in DnD. I'll stretch the idea to the limits and encourage my players to. And sure, I could just not build a robot pet, but I paid for it already. It cost a class feature. A pretty big one. There's no trading that for something I wanted more.
And like I've said, every time someone mentions how an actual Class would be nice, everyone comes out with a dozen subclasses or multiclass combos that they think are the same thing, or better. But why should a subclass that isn't what I want be considered equal? Why should I have to multiclass to get something just close to what the Paladin and Ranger do perfectly already? There's a template right there for a better Class, one that could gather up all of the subclasses that don't really fit where they are.
I don't want to play Iron Man, no matter how it's flavored. I don't want to play a Warlock/Sorcerer with all the baggage they have, just to get a character that is nothing like what I imagined. It might be strong, but it's not what I wanted. In fact, I've personally said many times that I don't care if it's strong. I don't want smites or metamagic or invocations. I want an Eldritch Knight, Arcane Archer, or Bladesinger that fulfills the fantasy they were trying to but didn't have the tools for.
It's strange how much pushback there is on this concept. It seems like an obvious addition to the Classes to me. There's a gap there that they keep trying to fill by wedging it into classes that weren't made for it. To me, it seems like better design to just make the actual Class. But as soon as someone asks for it, people stumble over themselves to throw out the most options that aren't it.
It's not like the existence of a new class would ruin anyone else's fun. No one would have to play it. Just like I don't want to play a Sorcerer. But I don't want them to get rid of it either. I know other people like it and that's good enough for me. But hey, I'm not going to convince WotC to add a new Class anyway. I'm just wishing out loud.
100% This right here.
Plus, all the reflavoring in the world can't change the mechanics of Artificier into a class I want to play.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Reflecting on my hypothetical Gish (which clearly isn't the original Gish, so I'm going to call it the Gist, as in "-ologist," and you can't stop me), there's really only two strong concepts in there that I could see.
Gist subclass 1: Curse Breaker. These Gists train to disable dangerous artifacts, undo harmful magical effects, and hide away anything that can't be undone. Some of them make a living solving magical problems for coin. Others are employed by nations and factions to counteract enemy arcana. Their powers allow them to shield allies and shut down enemies, particularly when it comes to magical effects. Their martial training is necessary to remain flexible and to operate under antimagic, which is one of their defining abilities, but they also use magic because they're pragmatic and knowledgeable about it.
Gist subclass 2: Destiny Shaper. These Gists study prophecy, past and future. They are diverse in their ambitions, some choosing to defy fate, others to ensure certain projected outcomes, and some seeking only to use gathered knowledge of these events to further inform their understanding of prophecy itself. Their powers let them divine information, as well as influence hearts and minds. They use martial tactics and spells learned from history, allowing them to blend in or stand out as befits their mission.
That would be sufficient for the core rules, but I don't think there's enough meat on these bones to make up many more subclasses. Also, I'm not fully convinced I didn't just describe a Wizard and a Bard.
I mean it's not just pattern completion, battlemages are extremely common in other forms of fiction. Outside the unique space D&D occupies, it's almost more the norm to see characters like that, as opposed to WOTC's hard lines between magic and not-magic.
Completely disagree that this is just a matter of checking boxes.
Okay, so you want a Bladesinger that deals elemental damage with its magical attacks, and you don't care about the build's power. Sooo... Why not go with a Bladesinger, who is equipped with a Flametongue? Why not play an Eldritch Knight, that's wielding an Ice Brand, and/or chucks a few Lightning Javelins? Why not an Arcane Archer multiclass, that casts Flame Arrows? Why not ask your DM for a homebrew weapon that uses you caster stat for attack/damage rolls? You can even go Arcane Domain Cleric, and simply believe in Magic. You don't need anything divinely flavored, to play Cleric nowadays.
The reason why people keep recommending what you don't like, is because what you don't like is capable of providing you with everything that you want, so long as you work with what's provided. You're asking for everything that the Paladin can provide, but minus the oath. Everything that the Artificer provides, but without the gadgets and equipment. All the elemental prowess the Wizard can provide, but it has to come naturally to him, without even studying. Everything that the tools at your disposal can provide, but minus the tools at your disposal.
Hell, I got one more pair of recommendations, to help appease you: Ranger or Druid. No subclass. No frills. Ranger. Or. Druid. You want elemental attacks? Flame Blade. Lightning Arrow. Elemental spells out the wazoo. Want that Gish feel, when it comes to using your caster stat for melee damage? Shillelagh. Both have ways to gain easy access to it. Ranger even has that d10 hit die and Fighting Style you so desperately crave. Worried about armor for Druid? Serpent Scale Armor, from Candlekeep Mysteries, paired with a wooden shield. Want it to not be "nature based?" Reflavor the Ranger into being a wandering spellsword, who just naturally channels the arcane elements into his attacks and techniques. Flavor is free, so rework the flavor to fit your needs. What subclass are you going with? Whatever the heck you decide, my man. Multiclass or solo class. It's up to you.
At the very least, you need to ask for something that can't be provided by the current system. Ask for a trap-based class, or a character who gains strength by being literally possessed by demons. Ask for a class that's specifically designed around its culinary expertise, and their ability to destroy their enemies with just the right amount of nutmeg and coriander. If all you're asking for is a Gish, and you're provided with about a half-dozen different flavors of Gish, in a system where it's surprisingly easy to build and/or flavor a Gish into existence, then maybe it's time to realize that maybe, just maybe, there's a chance that what you're looking for is already there, if you're willing to accept what you see.
But I didn't ask for any of those things you listed. I never mentioned my own character concepts at all. Everyone keeps guessing what I want to play, but I haven't said any specifics because it's not about that. I don't need advice on how to create one character concept with what we have. I'm capable of doing that.
I'm trying to focus on the basic template of a broad Class that could make a million character concepts. A Class where some of the current subclasses would function better for what they are trying to do. One that would be the natural choice for anyone with a gish idea. That is much more useful to the community as a whole than helping me with a handful of character concepts
All I've been talking about is a Class with the basic design template that Ranger and Paladin has. Not any of their unique abilities, just a template of progression. One that is proven to be balanced because it exists with two other spell lists. I'm only asking for the same design pattern to exist for the Arcane spells. Which is the one thing that none of the current classes or subclasses provide. That class does not exist. But it easily could. And it would be useful to not just me, but millions of players.
Someone could probably come up with a bunch of ways to make a trap character, or a demon powered character, or a chef character with the tools that already exist too. If someone asked for help creating one with what is available, I would be happy to help them with ideas. But if they asked for a new Class to exist for them, I would support that too. Especially if it fills a gap in the templates we have. There's nothing to lose but options.
I know that tone is hard to read in text posts. But it feels like something I've said is aggravating you with this. It wasn't my intent at all. I honestly can't figure out why this class concept in particular would bother anyone. It's a very common fantasy theme people want. And there is no class template for it even though we have one for the Divine and Primal spell lists (as they will be in 1DnD). I genuinely don't understand why it's so contentious.
When I consider this question, what pops in my mind is: We want a Gish to basically be Vilgefortz. Right? Fast, deadly, cool, powerful.
The problem, of course, is that Vilgefortz is a full mage - but fights as a fighter, and does so better than (basically) any fighter could.
I play an eldritch knight, and she's hella cool, but she runs out of spell slots, and then she's just a less-powerful fighter. On the other hand, of course, if the didn't run out of spell slots, she'd instead be just a more-powerful fighter.
I think - using eldritch knight as a template - the problem could be solved with a couple more spell slots, and some additional custom built spells for the eldritch knight to play around with. A few buffs with duration rather than concentration, a few more bonus or reaction spells. To me, that would be all it takes.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Adding to this, if you get improved pact weapon, and use a spear, with polearm master, and sentinel...
Your Hex-Paladin can have weapon & shield, cast EB, smite, 2 attacks, bonus damage, tank, only need to rely on Chr & Con...
Magic & Melee Classes/Subclasses curranty with main casting stat:
Divine - Paladin (Chr)
Primal - Ranger (Wis)
Arcane - Eldritch Knight (Int), Bladesinger (Int), Hexblade (Chr), Bard (Chr), Arcane Trickster (Int), War Magic (Int), Artificer (Int), Profane Soul* (Int or Wis)
8 No Multi-class required Gish options. ((Not counting the amazing Multi-class builds ie Hexadin, or the Fighter/Rogue/Bladesinger))
And you want more Arcane Warrior builds? I Think we need more Primal & Divine options. I would love to see them bring back the Dwarf Vindicator (past: Priest/fighter, now Barbarian /Bard)
Quote from The Complete Dwarf (AD&D)
Give us more Divine and Primal options, and then maybe arcane gish, but looking at what the OP really wants, They want to cast 2 spells a turn, and not actually make a Arcane Warrior who smites a lot. Which we can already do with a Hexadin Smite build. (My preferred is also a Spear & Shield Tank)
*Critical Role: Blood Hunter Caster option, semi official setting, One D&D may turn it into an official setting or CR might go back to Pathfinder... we will see.
The spell lists are far from equal, though. Sure, the Ranger and Paladin spell lists are balanced for a Gish character, but I don't think you're here asking for spells like Speak with Animals or Sanctuary on your character. The arcane spell list is less Beast Bond, and more Shield. Not so much Conjure Barrage, but Fireball instead.
I disagree that the much better spell list should be made easier to access on a martial character. To do that, you've got to deal with multiclassing (what is it for, anyway?), or a slower spell progression in the EK, or being limited to Pact Magic, or any of the other existing ways to fulfill that character fantasy, but with some drawback. I think that's fine.
You're talking about the guy from The Witcher who kept throwing his sword? He was very cool, but like... He was using magic, and then he ran out of spell slots and got curb stomped by a dedicated swordsman. I don't think your comparison quite works.
Again, I'm not talking about the various ways you could play an arcane martial/caster currently. I'm just saying it would make more sense, give more versatility, and work cleaner if there was one Class that is built like the Ranger or Paladin. Then most of those Subclasses you listed can all go under the new class instead.
The Paladin has 9 subclasses to make a divine martial caster. And the Cleric has more subclasses to do it too.
The Ranger has 8 subclasses to make a primal martial caster. And some druids fit the bill too.
You could probably come up with a number of more complex ways to do it too. Any character concept can find a build that somewhat works.
All I'm saying is that many of the subclasses that somewhat work for an arcane martial caster would work better under an actual Class like the Paladin and Ranger have. So they aren't scattered all over the place, and they could be more consistent. I genuinely don't understand why this actually annoys people to just talk about restructuring classes and their subclasses into a configuration that makes more sense.
(I'm sorry I don't know why it formatted like that or how to fix it)
Then limit the school selection. They did that with the 1DnD Ranger. It has access to all but one school of Primal spells. The Eldritch Knight is limited to only a couple schools. We are used to that. A hypothetical arcane martial caster built like a Ranger or Paladin would also be limited to a half caster progression and level 5 spells max.
If you want a full mage that fights like a fighter, go Battle Smith 3-5/Abjuration Wizard X. You'll essentially be a full caster, but you can fight like a martial.
Slap on Armor of Agathys from either a racial feature or Magic Initiate, and you'll be able to add even more tank to your tankiness.
The only cost is that you'll be one or two levels behind a full-on Wizard, when it comes to spell slots. In exchange, well... who's gonna be able to land a decent hit?
And before you ask, the Steel Defender's optional. You don't have to build it, if you don't want to. It's just a nice little bonus to keep around.
Whaddaya mean? He works perfectly.
Vilgefortz' defeat by ... um, that guy, I forget his name ... is meant to show us his weakness - which isn't running out of spell slots, but arrogance.
But anyways, it's not about that fight, it's about the fighting style: Being a mage who channels magic to be all but invincible in melee.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You count subclasses for arcane options, but subclasses don't count for primal and divine options?
Divine has every paladin subclass, war cleric, celestial bladelock, and a whole bunch of cleric domains.
Primal has every ranger subclass, ancients paladin, moon druid, and nature domain cleric.
The issue of relying on subclasses in 5e, is that 90% of the class power is coming from the main class, and the subclass is more a bit of flavouring sprinkled on top. A ranger or paladin will always make a better magic warrior than an eldritch knight or bladesinger. Because their magic is actually integrated into what they do. Their spell lists are tailored to their style of gameplay. Meanwhile subclasses like hexblade pose an issue due to being very thematically restricted. A lenient DM will let you rewrite this, but a stricter one won't. Hard to make an elemental themed swordmage using hexblade if the DM says you're not allowed to do that, and you must be shadow themed with a magic weapon from the Raven Queen.
Just giving the eldritch knight the smite/strike spells from paladin and ranger would make me far more satisfied with how it plays. I wouldn't even care is it lost two attacks in the process.
My current character is my attempt at flavouring an artificer armorer into an elemental earth themed swordmage. My DM has let me take thunderous smite despite it not being on the same spell list. And overall I'm enjoying it. However it's pretty clear it's not optimal. I'm having to rely on DM kindness just to get spells which suit a swordmage, and using a class which a chunk of DM's just ban outright for not suiting the setting.
LMFAO THANK YOU.
Feels like unless they make a class literally called Gish people won't be happy. And then they still won't be happy because it's too obvious or some irrelevantly annoying non-issue.
Bladesinger alone should be enough to stop this conversation from happening.
Completely agree with this. It's kinda why I think that what Stegadorkus is asking for is a bit superfluous. Why would we need more Gish classes/subclasses, when we already have so many? Especially since he seems to be asking for a strictly Arcane Gish, which is currently dominating the Gish market already. I'll admit that we could probably use another official Int-based class in general, to help balance out how few classes there are that rely on Int. However, if you accept Blood Hunter as a playable class, then even that slot is filled nicely enough. Is it a shame that there's no Int-based Paladin or Ranger? Possibly, depending on how you feel about it. Is it a necessary thing to add to the game, considering how many Arcane Gishes there already are, and considering how, whenever someone talks about wanting a "a full spellcaster, but with a sword," or "a mage who is all but invincible in melee," they seem to keep trying to recreate/reinvent the exact same multiclass that I've been mentioning this entire time? Probably not too necessary.