I don't believe this for a second. We were alerted to the proposed OGL changes by a leak on January 5. That was over a week ago. It was only after a huge community backlash occurred that Wizards made this reply. If what they said was true they could have come out and said it immediately, within 24 hours and made a statement. You know, been transparent in their communications.
This statement reeks of pure PR and anger at the community. The execs are obviously mad because they put in phrasing about hearing that fans 'won' and they have to insist 'we did too'. How petty and tone def does one have to be to respond to the community like this? After over a week of radio silence, after having to find out about the changes via a leak?
I'm sorry WOTC, this is not a sincere response and I will keep my subscription cancelled.
This update is mighty tone deaf, and seems to pretend that revoking the OGL 1.0a is still an option. Anything less than perpetual, irrevocable OGL 1.0a is unacceptable.
I have a HECKING DOUBT that the statements about always meaning well are true, it's all spin, spin, spin to make them look better.
At this point, WOTC has lost my trust, and I'm not giving y'all another penny for the foreseeable future. Myself and other DMs I know are quite happy to move on to other systems.
The thing I like about this response, they are using diversity and harm reduction as their shield for what they did. In reality, its really about preventing harmful D&D content from being released - You rolled a 1 on Deception. Hmm... DMs Guild and RPG Drivethru takes care of that. Oh someone wants a Kickstarter well that takes care of that. Oh someone wants to do a private release that reaches 200 people who all wanted that content in the first place,. really that is your shield D&D? It's just such a low IQ shield to use to defend their behavior, your customers will see through it, at least the ones that roll 2d6 and add the results together will. Just update the OGL and list specific objectionable content and state lawsuits will take place when that is crossed and remove D&D's ability to cancel whatever content they want for whatever reason - list out objectionable content and be done with it.
My biggest concern with this has always been "who decides what is evil, and what needs to be done to censor it from society".
I have not been happy with the mechanics of 5e for some time (combat takes way way too long IMO, primarily because of the number of options and hit point bloat). I also have been playing for 40 years, and take a traditional approach to my fantasy tropes. Orcs and Drow are evil in my worlds, and Race is the ancestry group your character comes from. I don't like the direction they're taking OneD&D, and decided to move to something else for this reason. I can appreciate and respect that others, especially newer players, have very different views on this and I can also understand why WotC has changed these items in the game.
For all of these reasons, our group is moving to OSE Advanced, which is a very cleaned up version of the old box set and delivers the game our group wants. Unfortunately, I am gravely concerned that Hasbro will force their morality on 3PP through the OGL 2.0 and require an adoption of the new standard instead of the classical standard that has been a feature of our games for 40 years. Not extreme racist content, but forcing others to drop debatable items such as a term like "Race" through the OGL 2.0 or face having WotC ban a game for simply having a different viewpoint they may not agree with.
"Content already released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected."
This seems that everything currently published stays under 1.0a, and implies it's not going away.
The new 1.1b or i forget what they're calling it will cover everything going forward. maybe just OneDND or stuff from a certain date.
The important word is already clear implies that they are still going to de-auth 1.0a and new stuff will have to be under 1.1 or whatever they call it going forward
They still aren't being honest because as many people have posted, you don't send out drafts without a watermark, to lots of third-parties at once with a contract and date to sign up by
They have been caught with their pants down and are then finding some that are 5 sizes too small
Interesting, it appears that the draft was correct and that Wizards is now changing its plans. Now, corporations such as Pathfinder will not be affected by this because they published under a previous listen. It also appears that several other clauses people disliked were removed.
All in all, the group that urged people to wait before deciding whether to keep playing the game seems to have been right. Well the draft may have been accurate, Wizards of the Coast has listened to their fans and been transparent. I don't see how anyone could fault them for that. When the article says the "drafts you’ve seen were attempting to" get feedback, it really makes it feel like they intentionally leaked the doc. But anyways... I digress.
The most important part of this though is that Wizards of the Coast is listening. They are hearing our feedback and using it to build a better game, one that we can all be proud of.
None of it was a draft, they sent it to content creators to have it SIGNED like a contract. You don't have people sign drafts. Many of their talking points are outright lies or just clever wordplay. This new OGL is a trap meant to snare people into a permanent OGL that is in WotC's favor.
What a steaming load!! I especially like the part where they pretend they were always going to solicit community feedback. Right, that's why it had to be leaked just days before it was supposed to go into effect.
And of course the diversity and inclusion shield. Who exactly was publishing this racist content that had to be dealt with so harshly?? Do they honestly expect us to believe that $$$ wasn't thier first priority??
"Content already released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected."
This seems that everything currently published stays under 1.0a, and implies it's not going away.
The new 1.1b or i forget what they're calling it will cover everything going forward. maybe just OneDND or stuff from a certain date.
I would count on everything going forward being covered once nOGL is released personally. That's what the language seems to indicate. Which means the community (us) will need to hold them to the major points in the spin: - nOGL has no royalties - nOGL has no license-back provision - nOGL has no affect on non-gaming expressions of any kind - nOGL does not affect content released under OGL 1.0a prior to the go-live date of nOGL.
Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast has my forbearance. Not my forgiveness. My forbearance is far more limited and conditional than forgiveness, and I WILL be watching. We have an out now.
What are you talking about? WoTC has been silent for nearly 10 days, and then they release a post that was basically, just saying, you know all that stuff you thought we were going to do, we didn't word it that way so we could do those horrible things... But we don't want to lose your money, so we gonna hold off and reword it so maybe you give us your money back.
Interesting, it appears that the draft was correct and that Wizards is now changing its plans. Now, corporations such as Pathfinder will not be affected by this because they published under a previous listen. It also appears that several other clauses people disliked were removed.
All in all, the group that urged people to wait before deciding whether to keep playing the game seems to have been right. Well the draft may have been accurate, Wizards of the Coast has listened to their fans and been transparent. I don't see how anyone could fault them for that. When the article says the "drafts you’ve seen were attempting to" get feedback, it really makes it feel like they intentionally leaked the doc. But anyways... I digress.
The most important part of this though is that Wizards of the Coast is listening. They are hearing our feedback and using it to build a better game, one that we can all be proud of.
None of it was a draft, they sent it to content creators to have it SIGNED like a contract. You don't have people sign drafts. Many of their talking points are outright lies or just clever wordplay. This new OGL is a trap meant to snare people into a permanent OGL that is in WotC's favor.
Have you ever drafted a contract before? I have. Hundreds of them. I send every single contract out “to have it signed like a contract” even drafts I know the other side won’t sign. Every attorney who has ever sent me a draft contract has sent me a version as if it were ready to be signed. That way we are both working with the actual terms in the final agreement, exactly as they will look when we finally meet in the middle and Party A sends to Party B a version where Party B says “no more edits, here is a signed copy.”
If you want to attempt to regain trust, the first step is NOT to come forward with a statement overflowing with blatant baldface lies!!! who is responsible for this BS????
Taking the sensationalism out of this, let’s look at what they actually said:
1. They all but confirmed the leaked draft was a real draft, and effectively through their lawyers under the bus by tacitly blaming them for putting forward an extremely strong initial position. From the lawyer perspective, that’s fine and very common among corporate lawyers—they are trained to deal with the other lawyers from other corporations like Kickstarter, who likewise understand “first offer” and “actual intentions” are different (and there’s often off the record jokes about how ridiculous terms are between lawyers, so a lot of animosity dissipation is behind closed doors and never written down). Ultra-aggressive openings are not my general style (though I have used them before), but I also spent half a decade in family law, where the contracts are every bit about emotion as the contents and strong handed tactics could easily backfire. Their attorneys could probably benefit from hiring some folks from non-corporate fields who might have experience with how non-lawyers/non-corporate entities might read offers and legalese.
2. They affirmed that existing 1.0 content will still be covered by 1.0. New content will be covered by 2.0. This makes sense—there are strong legal arguments that 1.0 contracts are perpetual due to Wizards’ past representations, and protecting existing 1.0 rights moving forward is in-line with the expectations of 1.0 content creators. Huge win for 1.0 owners - even if the contract does not say it, promises folks rely on have legal weight (something Wizards is very well versed in, since they shot themselves in the foot with that same equitable doctrine with Magic the Gathering).
3. They are committing to removing the licensing language. They are all but certainly not lying when they say they didn’t intend to actually take folks’ IP - that exact language is standard in many industry contracts (including almost every internet site you use) to prevent malicious lawsuits and provide a shield, not a set of lock picks. However, it is one of those things that lawyers can see the real intent behind, but laypeople do not - and another example of why maybe they need to have a non-corporate lawyer on their staff to ask “um, yeah, so I know what we mean by this, but Joe Six-pack won’t and will get scared.”
4. They are expanding what is covered by OGL 2.0 to include more things that 1.0 included. That also makes a lot of sense - their initial stated plan was to have different contracts to cover those other expressions, which they probably realised was a bit dumb when they realised small-time actors also made content, not just big companies like Role20 which are easy to contract with.
Overall, this is clearly a step in the right direction and one which should at least tie folks over until we see the next round of terms.
And, to those who don’t trust Wizards, trust not in them, but trust in the greed you believe they have. They would not have put out a false information about what they will include in 2.0 because their greed would not let them—you can win back money by fixing errors; but corporations know that the quickest way to lose paying customers forever is to promise change and follow that up with a contradictory offer. Now that this document exists, corporate greed is your unlikely ally forcing Wizards to be held to these representations.
Nice to see someone not screaming, with foam before their mouth.
"Our plan was always to solicit the input of our community before any update to the OGL; the drafts you’ve seen were attempting to do just that."
a) No, it wasn't. You got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and we let you know it.
b) It's not a draft when you send it to content creators with 7 days to sign it.
"Finally, we’d appreciate the chance to make this right."
Unfortunately the community as a whole is going to have a very hard time trusting anything that comes from your mouths after this. You can ask for the chance to make it right all you want, but you burned way too many people with this underhanded attempt at essentially bullying the community. Some of your marquee users are already creating their own content licenses and their own systems out of no other necessity than the one YOU CREATED with this whole fiasco.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Your dice hold the most unlikely successes...and the most absurd failures.
I’ve been playing D&D in one form or another since 1976. In that time I have spent many thousands (easily tens of thousands) of dollars on books, magazines, figures, dice, online systems, etc., etc. in pursuit of the hobby. I love RPGs, and have been thrilled these past few years at how close to mainstream D&D has become, allowing for more opportunities to play and pass along this wonderful hobby!
As a businessman I understand that the bottom line is often the thing most companies concern themselves with. That said, I believe WotC’s current course of action, regardless of what changes to the OGL they actually make, has irreparably tarnished their brand in the eyes of many. Brand name is everything, and it drives profit more than most people truly understand. WotC executives would do well to remember this.
As for me, I plan on waiting to see the final release of the new OGL before I make any rash decisions. D&D is been a part of my life now for more than 46 years, and I hope it will continue to be even as I pass my love of the hobby on to my son. That said, if everything plays out the way it seems to be currently heading, I have no problems with finding a new system to throw my support behind instead. I’d hate to walk away from D&D, but sometimes you have to take the higher ground for love of community and hobby.
Let’s all hope that cooler heads and rational thoughts prevail on both sides of this issue. Good luck everyone, and good gaming, whatever that game is!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hiding in the shadows for over 45 years and not coming out any time soon!😉
Interesting, it appears that the draft was correct and that Wizards is now changing its plans. Now, corporations such as Pathfinder will not be affected by this because they published under a previous listen. It also appears that several other clauses people disliked were removed.
All in all, the group that urged people to wait before deciding whether to keep playing the game seems to have been right. Well the draft may have been accurate, Wizards of the Coast has listened to their fans and been transparent. I don't see how anyone could fault them for that. When the article says the "drafts you’ve seen were attempting to" get feedback, it really makes it feel like they intentionally leaked the doc. But anyways... I digress.
The most important part of this though is that Wizards of the Coast is listening. They are hearing our feedback and using it to build a better game, one that we can all be proud of.
None of it was a draft, they sent it to content creators to have it SIGNED like a contract. You don't have people sign drafts. Many of their talking points are outright lies or just clever wordplay. This new OGL is a trap meant to snare people into a permanent OGL that is in WotC's favor.
Have you ever drafted a contract before? I have. Hundreds of them. I send every single contract out “to have it signed like a contract” even drafts I know the other side won’t sign. Every attorney who has ever sent me a draft contract has sent me a version as if it were ready to be signed. That way we are both working with the actual terms in the final agreement, exactly as they will look when we finally meet in the middle and Party A sends to Party B a version where Party B says “no more edits, here is a signed copy.”
WOTC can suck it! They trust that this smoke blowing campaign will pay off because of their belief that the community of consumers are stupid enough to continue supporting them.
This update is mighty tone deaf, and seems to pretend that revoking the OGL 1.0a is still an option. Anything less than perpetual, irrevocable OGL 1.0a is unacceptable.
I have a HECKING DOUBT that the statements about always meaning well are true, it's all spin, spin, spin to make them look better.
At this point, WOTC has lost my trust, and I'm not giving y'all another penny for the foreseeable future. Myself and other DMs I know are quite happy to move on to other systems.
In a cynical way I am nearly impressed, how the article is worded.
I am sitting here with a "weird" smile, because at this point it angers me not anymore - only amuses.
I have to comment this, I cannot believe the ego of WOTC.
Driving these goals were two simple principles: (1) Our job is to be good stewards of the game, and (2) the OGL exists for the benefit of the fans. Nothing about those principles has wavered for a second.
Seriously ?? The point 2 is so false, you are not thinking about fans but just you, the last 2 weeks made me realize who you really are.
That was why our early drafts of the new OGL included the provisions they did
This is another lie, you do not put a draft the way you did, I work in corporation world in the past 30 years, this is something you wanted to push and it backfire.
Content already released under 1.0a will also remain unaffected.
I am very surprised you think you can stop authorizing the 1.0a but hey, it will go to court, and this is where you may feel the most pain as if the ruling goes against you (it only take 1 judge) you may lose a lot more then what you are authorizing with 1.0a. In my opinion if you continue in this road of removing 1.0a I would be more than happy to see you lose in court.
Now here is what I think you should do, you have a very big team and the resources to hire free lancers to create unbelievable content. I am a huge fan of Birthright but it is completely abandon by you. You could also create an evolving world from creator and share the benefit with them. You could also provide easier license to videogames (it is not TTRPG but good for solo intro player). This is minimum effort on your part and a lot of ROI (return on investment) with a minimum TCO (total cost of ownership).
I think finance people needs to be involve in your prediction, let's say you create the example A, just calculate the return and if it is positive after 12 months it is a go. If not, push it to the market and they will increase your brand.
Lastly, I cannot believe you are making the same kind of move as the 4e. It is on to you to create real value of DND but support your fan. The TTRPG is very different then videogames or boardgame industry, it loads the imagination of everyone and put the creativity right on the front end.
The ball is in your court !
PS the following is a really stupid comment nobody cares who wins an argument, only the result !
Second, you’re going to hear people say that they won, and we lost because making your voices heard forced us to change our plans. Those people will only be half right. They won—and so did we.
This is a win for all except WotC and I'll take it as such. I worried a too strong pushback would force them to double down, but they did the smart thing and didn't. OGL 2.0 will be a much better document, we can all be sure of that. If they go back on today's statement, they are basically making sure not a single customer that went away is coming back, and they won't be able to legally enforce anything regarding OGL 1.0 and its possible cancelation.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
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I don't believe this for a second. We were alerted to the proposed OGL changes by a leak on January 5. That was over a week ago. It was only after a huge community backlash occurred that Wizards made this reply. If what they said was true they could have come out and said it immediately, within 24 hours and made a statement. You know, been transparent in their communications.
This statement reeks of pure PR and anger at the community. The execs are obviously mad because they put in phrasing about hearing that fans 'won' and they have to insist 'we did too'. How petty and tone def does one have to be to respond to the community like this? After over a week of radio silence, after having to find out about the changes via a leak?
I'm sorry WOTC, this is not a sincere response and I will keep my subscription cancelled.
This update is mighty tone deaf, and seems to pretend that revoking the OGL 1.0a is still an option. Anything less than perpetual, irrevocable OGL 1.0a is unacceptable.
I have a HECKING DOUBT that the statements about always meaning well are true, it's all spin, spin, spin to make them look better.
At this point, WOTC has lost my trust, and I'm not giving y'all another penny for the foreseeable future. Myself and other DMs I know are quite happy to move on to other systems.
My biggest concern with this has always been "who decides what is evil, and what needs to be done to censor it from society".
I have not been happy with the mechanics of 5e for some time (combat takes way way too long IMO, primarily because of the number of options and hit point bloat). I also have been playing for 40 years, and take a traditional approach to my fantasy tropes. Orcs and Drow are evil in my worlds, and Race is the ancestry group your character comes from. I don't like the direction they're taking OneD&D, and decided to move to something else for this reason. I can appreciate and respect that others, especially newer players, have very different views on this and I can also understand why WotC has changed these items in the game.
For all of these reasons, our group is moving to OSE Advanced, which is a very cleaned up version of the old box set and delivers the game our group wants. Unfortunately, I am gravely concerned that Hasbro will force their morality on 3PP through the OGL 2.0 and require an adoption of the new standard instead of the classical standard that has been a feature of our games for 40 years. Not extreme racist content, but forcing others to drop debatable items such as a term like "Race" through the OGL 2.0 or face having WotC ban a game for simply having a different viewpoint they may not agree with.
Keep censorship out of the OGL.
The important word is already clear implies that they are still going to de-auth 1.0a and new stuff will have to be under 1.1 or whatever they call it going forward
They still aren't being honest because as many people have posted, you don't send out drafts without a watermark, to lots of third-parties at once with a contract and date to sign up by
They have been caught with their pants down and are then finding some that are 5 sizes too small
Staying un-subbed
---
Jay
None of it was a draft, they sent it to content creators to have it SIGNED like a contract. You don't have people sign drafts. Many of their talking points are outright lies or just clever wordplay. This new OGL is a trap meant to snare people into a permanent OGL that is in WotC's favor.
That statement is almost complete bullshit, and I'm offended they thought we'd buy it.
What a steaming load!! I especially like the part where they pretend they were always going to solicit community feedback. Right, that's why it had to be leaked just days before it was supposed to go into effect.
And of course the diversity and inclusion shield. Who exactly was publishing this racist content that had to be dealt with so harshly?? Do they honestly expect us to believe that $$$ wasn't thier first priority??
I think WotC just called us all idiots...
I would count on everything going forward being covered once nOGL is released personally. That's what the language seems to indicate. Which means the community (us) will need to hold them to the major points in the spin:
- nOGL has no royalties
- nOGL has no license-back provision
- nOGL has no affect on non-gaming expressions of any kind
- nOGL does not affect content released under OGL 1.0a prior to the go-live date of nOGL.
Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast has my forbearance. Not my forgiveness. My forbearance is far more limited and conditional than forgiveness, and I WILL be watching. We have an out now.
And I'm definitely not the only one.
#OpenDND
What are you talking about? WoTC has been silent for nearly 10 days, and then they release a post that was basically, just saying, you know all that stuff you thought we were going to do, we didn't word it that way so we could do those horrible things... But we don't want to lose your money, so we gonna hold off and reword it so maybe you give us your money back.
Have you ever drafted a contract before? I have. Hundreds of them. I send every single contract out “to have it signed like a contract” even drafts I know the other side won’t sign. Every attorney who has ever sent me a draft contract has sent me a version as if it were ready to be signed. That way we are both working with the actual terms in the final agreement, exactly as they will look when we finally meet in the middle and Party A sends to Party B a version where Party B says “no more edits, here is a signed copy.”
If you want to attempt to regain trust, the first step is NOT to come forward with a statement overflowing with blatant baldface lies!!! who is responsible for this BS????
Nice to see someone not screaming, with foam before their mouth.
Your dice hold the most unlikely successes...and the most absurd failures.
I’ve been playing D&D in one form or another since 1976. In that time I have spent many thousands (easily tens of thousands) of dollars on books, magazines, figures, dice, online systems, etc., etc. in pursuit of the hobby. I love RPGs, and have been thrilled these past few years at how close to mainstream D&D has become, allowing for more opportunities to play and pass along this wonderful hobby!
As a businessman I understand that the bottom line is often the thing most companies concern themselves with. That said, I believe WotC’s current course of action, regardless of what changes to the OGL they actually make, has irreparably tarnished their brand in the eyes of many. Brand name is everything, and it drives profit more than most people truly understand. WotC executives would do well to remember this.
As for me, I plan on waiting to see the final release of the new OGL before I make any rash decisions. D&D is been a part of my life now for more than 46 years, and I hope it will continue to be even as I pass my love of the hobby on to my son. That said, if everything plays out the way it seems to be currently heading, I have no problems with finding a new system to throw my support behind instead. I’d hate to walk away from D&D, but sometimes you have to take the higher ground for love of community and hobby.
Let’s all hope that cooler heads and rational thoughts prevail on both sides of this issue. Good luck everyone, and good gaming, whatever that game is!
Hiding in the shadows for over 45 years and not coming out any time soon!😉
This makes sense.
#OpenDND
WOTC can suck it! They trust that this smoke blowing campaign will pay off because of their belief that the community of consumers are stupid enough to continue supporting them.
It needs to be made clear that however noble the intentions, or spin applied to them for PR, the action is unjustifiable.
In a cynical way I am nearly impressed, how the article is worded.
I am sitting here with a "weird" smile, because at this point it angers me not anymore - only amuses.
I have to comment this, I cannot believe the ego of WOTC.
Seriously ?? The point 2 is so false, you are not thinking about fans but just you, the last 2 weeks made me realize who you really are.
This is another lie, you do not put a draft the way you did, I work in corporation world in the past 30 years, this is something you wanted to push and it backfire.
I am very surprised you think you can stop authorizing the 1.0a but hey, it will go to court, and this is where you may feel the most pain as if the ruling goes against you (it only take 1 judge) you may lose a lot more then what you are authorizing with 1.0a. In my opinion if you continue in this road of removing 1.0a I would be more than happy to see you lose in court.
Now here is what I think you should do, you have a very big team and the resources to hire free lancers to create unbelievable content. I am a huge fan of Birthright but it is completely abandon by you. You could also create an evolving world from creator and share the benefit with them. You could also provide easier license to videogames (it is not TTRPG but good for solo intro player). This is minimum effort on your part and a lot of ROI (return on investment) with a minimum TCO (total cost of ownership).
I think finance people needs to be involve in your prediction, let's say you create the example A, just calculate the return and if it is positive after 12 months it is a go. If not, push it to the market and they will increase your brand.
Lastly, I cannot believe you are making the same kind of move as the 4e. It is on to you to create real value of DND but support your fan. The TTRPG is very different then videogames or boardgame industry, it loads the imagination of everyone and put the creativity right on the front end.
The ball is in your court !
PS the following is a really stupid comment nobody cares who wins an argument, only the result !
This is a win for all except WotC and I'll take it as such. I worried a too strong pushback would force them to double down, but they did the smart thing and didn't. OGL 2.0 will be a much better document, we can all be sure of that. If they go back on today's statement, they are basically making sure not a single customer that went away is coming back, and they won't be able to legally enforce anything regarding OGL 1.0 and its possible cancelation.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.