As I've said in a few threads now: WOTC seems to be under the delusional idea that they weren't already top dog of the TTRPG world. D&D 5E enjoyed an unprecedented confluence of various factors that pushed it to be bigger than it ever had been before. But; a contraction was going to come eventually.
No king rules forever; it's just a bit shocking that the apparent fall from grace was self-inflicted.
Yeah, I agree and you are absolutely right. I always knew at some point, their control of the market share was going to get challenged, but I always figured it would be by means of competition. Someone would create a breakthrough game that catches on and gives them a run for their money. NEVER would I have guessed that their downfall would come by the way of them essentially killing off their own success.
Like I always knew WotC and Hasbro were greedy, but I would not have guessed them to be stupid. That they would mismanage themselves in this way and destroy the brand from the inside, its quite jarring. A lot of people are about to get fired in this company, heads are definitely going to roll when this is said and done, I just wonder who they are ultimately going to blame for this. Like I wonder if there will be a fall guy or if there is going to be some real, meaningful management changes.
Have we not already learned this lesson with TSR? I mean, you can't let people who don't play and love the game, manage the company. No way a D&D fan would have ever made any of the decisions that have led us to this point, this could only happen when outsiders get involved.
I don't think the exodus from the current drama is enough to have long-term impacts on the game. It does, and will continue, to have an impact but I believe that impact will only affect the next couple of years. What WotC does with the OGL and their plans for D&D and VTTs will have long and lasting effects.
If WotC continues with their plans to quash 3rd party content with a dubious or harsh agreement while trying to force D&D from into a digital VTT that they see as a video game, that will have a much more substantive impact on the long-term health of the game. I think WotC could paint themselves into a corner where they aren't able to generate the revenue to maintain the products they are trying to produce. Hasbro has stated that they intend to eliminate IPs that don't make a considerable profit for them. Does that mean eventually selling D&D if it doesn't become a billion-dollar IP or would they just cease production and let it languish?
I agree that D&D is much to big and too deeply entrenched to kill completely as a game, but it can be relegated to a legacy game that people play with old/out of print books and underground tools.
I think no one minds that WotC would create and promote a new VTT. The pricing and microtransactions may discourage one group of participants (like most of us), but maybe that would be a great system for another bunch.
Meanwhile, the core functionality of DnDBeyond (rules and character sheets) is no longer being developed. For now, despite it's flaws and lack of development, it's still the best character sheet resource for tabletop RPG (both online and in-person), but gradually it will fade into obscurity. Maybe that's the plan. I wish another group would be able to offer something similar, but who? Where? I feel a sense of loss here.
I think no one minds that WotC would create and promote a new VTT.
I think this alone is fine. Trying to suppress others from competing is a problem. WotC has the resources to make something better than most potential competitors, so make something better that people will prefer to use rather than something people feel they have to use.
Meanwhile, the core functionality of DnDBeyond (rules and character sheets) is no longer being developed. For now, despite it's flaws and lack of development, it's still the best character sheet resource for tabletop RPG (both online and in-person), but gradually it will fade into obscurity. Maybe that's the plan. I wish another group would be able to offer something similar, but who? Where? I feel a sense of loss here.
This is where having a permissive OGL is important. It allows 3rd party creators to make things that WotC may not even be interested in. That's how D&D Beyond got started in the first place! We know Chris Cao wants nothing to do with it and considers it irrelevant to his future plans for D&D except as a hinderance to people transitioning to his D&D video game experience.
D&D's going nowhere. If WOTC can't make money from D&D, they'll sell it off to someone else. D&D is too valuable as a brand name to go unused.
I think the reason people think that is because they can't imagine a world where D&D is replaced by something but this has already come pretty damn close on a number of occasions. When Wizards bought out TSR for example, there was no guarantee that they would be successful in reviving the brand and when WotC made 4th edition and the franchise came to a near dead stop there was no guarantee they could revive that franchise.
I think D&D can be replaced by other brands as well as transition the brand to a completely different medium. This happens to franchises all the time.
Only time will tell how this all goes down but you would have to be a real gambler to bet on Hasbro stock right now. Between the Magic: The Gathering disaster and now the D&D fiasco, they have a lot of damage to undo and in the meantime the gaming communities of both franchise are looking around to see what else is out there. The scary thing that I think Wizards of the Coast should be worried about is that there are already better games than both Magic: The Gathering and D&D out there. The masses aren't aware of that because trying out alternatives is not something you do when your happy with what you have but when you are not and you look around, there are some amazing games out there to be found. Pathfinder 2e is just one among them even though people are flocking to it right now but I don't think most people actually realize what a huge boom the RPG market has had in the last few years. I mean, there is some really great gaming to be had out there beyond D&D. I suspect a lot of people are about to make some very pleasant discoveries and they might not be so eager to come to D&D if it goes in the direction of the shit show its heading for right now.
I think the popularity of RPGs overall will fade. We've seen this before. We're sort of at the high mark of that "fad" cycle - marked by a D&D movie being released (even with action figures ready for the bargain bin - god help us). D&D in popular media lifted all boats - it got people to try playing for the first time, got old timers to get back into it, got more people to play, and more people to try other systems. 3rd party content grew as a result. But I imagine that most people that got into it during that spurt won't become lifetime players and I expect the number of players to decline in the next few years unless there's some real shift/innovation that makes this more accessible/easier to get new players in and to keep playing (and paying (that goes for 3rd party content too)).
Releasing a D&D movie now is just another symptom of Hasbro wanting to milk D&D for every penny.
Our group only moved to D&D from PF1 at the start of the lockdown, since D&D was easier to play online. We most likely won't be staying now that other tools are in place for PF2 and other game systems.
D&D's competitors lack the style, grace, amazing artwork and attention-to-detail familiarity of the 'real thing'.
I'll agree with that. The hardcover D&D books are pretty and fun to use. (By comparison, although I do it more often, I never enjoy trying to read information from my digital books through DnDBeyond.)
Recently, visited a Barnes & Noble bookstore curious to see what Pathfinder and Starfinder was all about.
Found Pathfinder and Starfinder book presentation to be unimpressive; the artwork and graphic design inside each book seem imitative and uninspiring.
D&D's competitors lack the style, grace, amazing artwork and attention-to-detail familiarity of the 'real thing'.
I find the artwork in Paizo's books far superior to anything in Wizard's products. This comes down to personal taste though, so you be you and I'll be me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Recently, visited a Barnes & Noble bookstore curious to see what Pathfinder and Starfinder was all about.
Found Pathfinder and Starfinder book presentation to be unimpressive; the artwork and graphic design inside each book seem imitative and uninspiring.
D&D's competitors lack the style, grace, amazing artwork and attention-to-detail familiarity of the 'real thing'.
I find the artwork in Paizo's books far superior to anything in Wizard's products. This comes down to personal taste though, so you be you and I'll be me.
When it comes to art work, I think they both suck something fierce. We haven't seen good art in a D&D book since the 80's-90's if you ask me.
When it comes to presentation and usability however, Pathfinder 2nd edition is so far ahead of the competition, they aren't even in the same galaxy. They make a 600+ page rulebook so easily referencable I can find any rule in that book faster than you can find a rule using DnDBeyond search engine. Its that well organized.
My only complaint with Pathfinder is that they make such awesome adventures that I get analysis paralysis trying to pick. I just picked up Kingmaker and it's a bloody revelation. It makes the best D&D adventures look like 11 year olds wrote them with crayons.
D&D's competitors lack the style, grace, amazing artwork and attention-to-detail familiarity of the 'real thing'.
I'll agree with that. The hardcover D&D books are pretty and fun to use. (By comparison, although I do it more often, I never enjoy trying to read information from my digital books through DnDBeyond.)
The obvious problem is that they're supposed to be rule and reference books. Pretty pictures, most of which my players will never even see, don't help me run the game.
D&D's competitors lack the style, grace, amazing artwork and attention-to-detail familiarity of the 'real thing'.
I'll agree with that. The hardcover D&D books are pretty and fun to use. (By comparison, although I do it more often, I never enjoy trying to read information from my digital books through DnDBeyond.)
The obvious problem is that they're supposed to be rule and reference books. Pretty pictures, most of which my players will never even see, don't help me run the game.
It depends. For example, often times (my games are all now remote) - I will describe (for example) some goblins - then do the "Display to VTT" and push it to Discord where everyone sees the goblin.
Recently, visited a Barnes & Noble bookstore curious to see what Pathfinder and Starfinder was all about.
Found Pathfinder and Starfinder book presentation to be unimpressive; the artwork and graphic design inside each book seem imitative and uninspiring.
D&D's competitors lack the style, grace, amazing artwork and attention-to-detail familiarity of the 'real thing'.
Jesus I don't know what art work you are looking at but Pathfinder 2e art blows Wizards art out of the water. Some of the best I have ever seen. Which books were you looking at? Anything beyond the base book? Reynolds is one of the best fantasy artists on the planet. He does all their Icons art and more. I wish I had some of his stuff for my walls.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yeah, I agree and you are absolutely right. I always knew at some point, their control of the market share was going to get challenged, but I always figured it would be by means of competition. Someone would create a breakthrough game that catches on and gives them a run for their money. NEVER would I have guessed that their downfall would come by the way of them essentially killing off their own success.
Like I always knew WotC and Hasbro were greedy, but I would not have guessed them to be stupid. That they would mismanage themselves in this way and destroy the brand from the inside, its quite jarring. A lot of people are about to get fired in this company, heads are definitely going to roll when this is said and done, I just wonder who they are ultimately going to blame for this. Like I wonder if there will be a fall guy or if there is going to be some real, meaningful management changes.
Have we not already learned this lesson with TSR? I mean, you can't let people who don't play and love the game, manage the company. No way a D&D fan would have ever made any of the decisions that have led us to this point, this could only happen when outsiders get involved.
I don't think the exodus from the current drama is enough to have long-term impacts on the game. It does, and will continue, to have an impact but I believe that impact will only affect the next couple of years. What WotC does with the OGL and their plans for D&D and VTTs will have long and lasting effects.
If WotC continues with their plans to quash 3rd party content with a dubious or harsh agreement while trying to force D&D from into a digital VTT that they see as a video game, that will have a much more substantive impact on the long-term health of the game. I think WotC could paint themselves into a corner where they aren't able to generate the revenue to maintain the products they are trying to produce. Hasbro has stated that they intend to eliminate IPs that don't make a considerable profit for them. Does that mean eventually selling D&D if it doesn't become a billion-dollar IP or would they just cease production and let it languish?
I agree that D&D is much to big and too deeply entrenched to kill completely as a game, but it can be relegated to a legacy game that people play with old/out of print books and underground tools.
I think no one minds that WotC would create and promote a new VTT. The pricing and microtransactions may discourage one group of participants (like most of us), but maybe that would be a great system for another bunch.
Meanwhile, the core functionality of DnDBeyond (rules and character sheets) is no longer being developed. For now, despite it's flaws and lack of development, it's still the best character sheet resource for tabletop RPG (both online and in-person), but gradually it will fade into obscurity. Maybe that's the plan. I wish another group would be able to offer something similar, but who? Where? I feel a sense of loss here.
I think this alone is fine. Trying to suppress others from competing is a problem. WotC has the resources to make something better than most potential competitors, so make something better that people will prefer to use rather than something people feel they have to use.
This is where having a permissive OGL is important. It allows 3rd party creators to make things that WotC may not even be interested in. That's how D&D Beyond got started in the first place! We know Chris Cao wants nothing to do with it and considers it irrelevant to his future plans for D&D except as a hinderance to people transitioning to his D&D video game experience.
D&D's going nowhere. If WOTC can't make money from D&D, they'll sell it off to someone else. D&D is too valuable as a brand name to go unused.
I think the reason people think that is because they can't imagine a world where D&D is replaced by something but this has already come pretty damn close on a number of occasions. When Wizards bought out TSR for example, there was no guarantee that they would be successful in reviving the brand and when WotC made 4th edition and the franchise came to a near dead stop there was no guarantee they could revive that franchise.
I think D&D can be replaced by other brands as well as transition the brand to a completely different medium. This happens to franchises all the time.
Only time will tell how this all goes down but you would have to be a real gambler to bet on Hasbro stock right now. Between the Magic: The Gathering disaster and now the D&D fiasco, they have a lot of damage to undo and in the meantime the gaming communities of both franchise are looking around to see what else is out there. The scary thing that I think Wizards of the Coast should be worried about is that there are already better games than both Magic: The Gathering and D&D out there. The masses aren't aware of that because trying out alternatives is not something you do when your happy with what you have but when you are not and you look around, there are some amazing games out there to be found. Pathfinder 2e is just one among them even though people are flocking to it right now but I don't think most people actually realize what a huge boom the RPG market has had in the last few years. I mean, there is some really great gaming to be had out there beyond D&D. I suspect a lot of people are about to make some very pleasant discoveries and they might not be so eager to come to D&D if it goes in the direction of the shit show its heading for right now.
The best case scenario for the game itself is that it be sold to someone who actually wants to make a game rather than just monetize an IP.
We know this because some of us are old enough to have seen this all happen once before. It's practically deja vu
I think the popularity of RPGs overall will fade. We've seen this before. We're sort of at the high mark of that "fad" cycle - marked by a D&D movie being released (even with action figures ready for the bargain bin - god help us). D&D in popular media lifted all boats - it got people to try playing for the first time, got old timers to get back into it, got more people to play, and more people to try other systems. 3rd party content grew as a result. But I imagine that most people that got into it during that spurt won't become lifetime players and I expect the number of players to decline in the next few years unless there's some real shift/innovation that makes this more accessible/easier to get new players in and to keep playing (and paying (that goes for 3rd party content too)).
Releasing a D&D movie now is just another symptom of Hasbro wanting to milk D&D for every penny.
Our group only moved to D&D from PF1 at the start of the lockdown, since D&D was easier to play online. We most likely won't be staying now that other tools are in place for PF2 and other game systems.
Recently, visited a Barnes & Noble bookstore curious to see what Pathfinder and Starfinder was all about.
Found Pathfinder and Starfinder book presentation to be unimpressive; the artwork and graphic design inside each book seem imitative and uninspiring.
D&D's competitors lack the style, grace, amazing artwork and attention-to-detail familiarity of the 'real thing'.
Because companies shouldn't want to make money is what your take is?
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
I'll agree with that. The hardcover D&D books are pretty and fun to use. (By comparison, although I do it more often, I never enjoy trying to read information from my digital books through DnDBeyond.)
I find the artwork in Paizo's books far superior to anything in Wizard's products. This comes down to personal taste though, so you be you and I'll be me.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
I've flipped through those pages, too.
Not impressed.
The whole presentation simply does not compare to the charm of D&D.
When it comes to art work, I think they both suck something fierce. We haven't seen good art in a D&D book since the 80's-90's if you ask me.
When it comes to presentation and usability however, Pathfinder 2nd edition is so far ahead of the competition, they aren't even in the same galaxy. They make a 600+ page rulebook so easily referencable I can find any rule in that book faster than you can find a rule using DnDBeyond search engine. Its that well organized.
My only complaint with Pathfinder is that they make such awesome adventures that I get analysis paralysis trying to pick. I just picked up Kingmaker and it's a bloody revelation. It makes the best D&D adventures look like 11 year olds wrote them with crayons.
The obvious problem is that they're supposed to be rule and reference books. Pretty pictures, most of which my players will never even see, don't help me run the game.
It depends. For example, often times (my games are all now remote) - I will describe (for example) some goblins - then do the "Display to VTT" and push it to Discord where everyone sees the goblin.
So having a cool picture can be very useful.
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
I admittedly miss that classic black and white art from back then...
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
Making money is the reason most companies exist. There's nothing wrong with that.
But Hasbro's handling of D&D is a living example of the First Rule of Corporate Ethics: They don't have any.
Behind every successful Warlock, there's an angry mob.
Jesus I don't know what art work you are looking at but Pathfinder 2e art blows Wizards art out of the water. Some of the best I have ever seen. Which books were you looking at? Anything beyond the base book? Reynolds is one of the best fantasy artists on the planet. He does all their Icons art and more. I wish I had some of his stuff for my walls.