I respectfully disagree that the payback would not be worth the resources.
The very foundation that D&D was built upon has allowed people to inject their own creativity into the system. Why would we not want to see homebrew class creation allowed as option where fans create it in their own space here. D&D started as a miniature war game that people started altering to make their own fantasy stories. I wonder if the war gaming community originally rejected the idea of D&D in the beginning. Contributing your own creations is the most exciting aspect of D&D IMO because it allows you to shape this malleable dream! To stifle it is the only limitation. It isn’t like a video game, this is a tool of imagination and D&D Beyond should be trying to heed the call of this expectation, not sigh like an exhausted curmugeon and shrug because its too hard to even think about.
It's not worth the resources.
People already use the homebrew system to create official options not owned here as a way of circumventing owning the content via the digital platform. Opening up the entire system means supporting the system and it means supporting it from a development perspective, a data storage perspective and a live service perspective. What's the ROI on that if those people aren't paying?
Sure, Wizards can easily afford it but let's also be real. We're in a capitalist world and if there isn't a tangible, easy to understand model to make money it won't happen.
I respectfully disagree that the payback would not be worth the resources.
The very foundation that D&D was built upon has allowed people to inject their own creativity into the system. Why would we not want to see homebrew class creation allowed as option where fans create it in their own space here. D&D started as a miniature war game that people started altering to make their own fantasy stories. I wonder if the war gaming community originally rejected the idea of D&D in the beginning. Contributing your own creations is the most exciting aspect of D&D IMO because it allows you to shape this malleable dream! To stifle it is the only limitation. It isn’t like a video game, this is a tool of imagination and D&D Beyond should be trying to heed the call of this expectation, not sigh like an exhausted curmugeon and shrug because its too hard to even think about.
Emphasis mine.
Nobody here is saying we don't want to see homebrew classes. We're saying that it doesn't make business sense for WotC to invest in it. You haven't really explained where the money is going to come from. Do you think that a ton of new people will subscribe and buy digital books if WotC gives them a free new tool? I don't.
I respectfully disagree that the payback would not be worth the resources.
The very foundation that D&D was built upon has allowed people to inject their own creativity into the system. Why would we not want to see homebrew class creation allowed as option where fans create it in their own space here. D&D started as a miniature war game that people started altering to make their own fantasy stories. I wonder if the war gaming community originally rejected the idea of D&D in the beginning. Contributing your own creations is the most exciting aspect of D&D IMO because it allows you to shape this malleable dream! To stifle it is the only limitation. It isn’t like a video game, this is a tool of imagination and D&D Beyond should be trying to heed the call of this expectation, not sigh like an exhausted curmugeon and shrug because its too hard to even think about.
Emphasis mine.
Nobody here is saying we don't want to see homebrew classes. We're saying that it doesn't make business sense for WotC to invest in it. You haven't really explained where the money is going to come from. Do you think that a ton of new people will subscribe and buy digital books if WotC gives them a free new tool? I don't.
I don’t believe either one of us have information on the accounting side of this business and what they can or can’t green light budgets for. I would imagine it takes the right Project Manager convincing the correct Hasbro exec that this idea can reflect dollar signs in their wolfishly dilated pupils.
Do I Skywise personally think it would incentivize new customers? Perhaps… I suppose if it helped to further lock in their base subscribers by allowing them to do things that they currently can do WITHOUT D&D Beyond, then it will excite the players these subscribers bring into the fold. I think if it was marketed the right way that it could look sleek and desirable and make people thirst for its use. “Dreams come true with YOU at D&D Beyond!” Pretty catchy, right?
I am just fighting the good fight . I’m rooting for this to happen because before D&D Beyond was part of the process, I would make up a new character class and we brought our pens and paper and dice and books and we could write stuff in and play that made up Frankenstein of a class, broken as it was, and have a good time. I want that here too. And a slice of cheese cake.
No one is stopping us from playing the old school way, I just think that if we don’t try to have things like a home brew class creation option within D&D Beyond that it is like taking the corpus collosum out of D&D when you play.
I respectfully disagree that the payback would not be worth the resources.
The very foundation that D&D was built upon has allowed people to inject their own creativity into the system. Why would we not want to see homebrew class creation allowed as option where fans create it in their own space here. D&D started as a miniature war game that people started altering to make their own fantasy stories. I wonder if the war gaming community originally rejected the idea of D&D in the beginning. Contributing your own creations is the most exciting aspect of D&D IMO because it allows you to shape this malleable dream! To stifle it is the only limitation. It isn’t like a video game, this is a tool of imagination and D&D Beyond should be trying to heed the call of this expectation, not sigh like an exhausted curmugeon and shrug because its too hard to even think about.
It's not worth the resources.
People already use the homebrew system to create official options not owned here as a way of circumventing owning the content via the digital platform. Opening up the entire system means supporting the system and it means supporting it from a development perspective, a data storage perspective and a live service perspective. What's the ROI on that if those people aren't paying?
Sure, Wizards can easily afford it but let's also be real. We're in a capitalist world and if there isn't a tangible, easy to understand model to make money it won't happen.
There is a easy way that WotC can still make money from homebrew classes: lock it behind the subscription. Many will bemoan this, but as someone who pays already a sub and many others that do, it would add more value to the sub with little cost from WotCs side.
A list that does not contradict any already published official classes or those class's features.
They should have fleshed this system out years ago. Something for developers to follow at least.
That's a good question. Who knows, with the 5.24 update, maybe they rework the structure of classes and subclasses, since they probably don't have to support new stuff for the 5.14 versions anymore. Since DNDBeyond was acquired by WotC they could have been working a lot in the background on a new framework for classes during the 5.24 PHB development. I mean, Maps came out of nowhere. So a class/subclass framework update for 5.24 that also allows homebrew, and also 3rd party classes that sell on DDB, might be in the works.
Maps didn't come out of nowhere. It was a step toward the VTT that they've had their eyes on for years. Homebrew classes were never really on the roadmap, even when the roadmap was public. And if anything, development on DDB slowed down dramatically post-acquisition, so I would not hold my breath.
it could have slowed down, as there was no point in big changes for the 5.14 version, when they could already start at the 5.24 version. And as you say: since they were acquired. So the very moment they could get full access to the 5.24 development team. If i look at the marketplace it looks quite different. Maps uses the same header as the marketplace. They both don't use the normal DDB header. I wouldn't be surprised once the PHB drops, that DDB might change the look, and perhaps functionality too. This would give them a huge leap ahead of other D&D sheet hosting services like roll20.
Maps didn't come out of nowhere. It was a step toward the VTT that they've had their eyes on for years. Homebrew classes were never really on the roadmap, even when the roadmap was public. And if anything, development on DDB slowed down dramatically post-acquisition, so I would not hold my breath.
Constraining creativity for WoT profits is why DnD has gone down hill in the past decade. The only thing 5 ed did was allow a clearer approach to combat. Other that that…? It’s story time for bonzo and other non thinking types…. Short rest, long rest..? What a joke. There are no consequences in DnD. You don’t have to think to solve probs and survive, just short rest your way to 30th gorillion level. This is why smart people have been leaving 5th ed for years and it’s only getting worse.
Eh? How do you imagine DDB would generate profits by diverting their staff into creating a homebrew class system? It's a huge task for a free feature. Are you arguing that there are armies of people not buying legendary bundles because they can't currently make a homebrew class? Idk.
I know that this question wasn't directed at me and that this post is fairly old already, but I do have an answer/opinion on it if you or anyone else is cares to hear it.
The profits would come from the subscriptions. The entire reason I had the top tier subscription for years was to support improvements like that on the site. I realize that these things aren't free or easy, so I gave them my money every month to help make these improvements happen. As did many other people. Obviously I was mistaken in thinking that the money from the subscriptions would go towards improving the site in these ways. I understand and acknowledge that now.
You're right though, people are still subscribing and buying books despite the lack of new features and improvements on the site. Just as I was for a long time. They have no motivation to do any of those things, because they're getting our money already without doing those things. My argument would not be "that there are armies of people not buying legendary bundles because they can't currently make a homebrew class", but instead that people (if they feel the same as I do) should be refusing to subscribe and buy books on the site if the site is not providing them with the things that they want. That is why I've recently cancelled my subscription and have chosen to stop buying books on this site. I'm not so delusional as to think my measly few dollars matters to this company or will make any real difference, but as a consumer voting with my dollar is the only power I have.
Well you see, if we have to homebrew classes and keep them out of The app, then technically there is no need for us to even use The website or even subscribe if we can get The books anywhere else. So I believe this feature, as poorly working as it would be, considering how homebrew subclass creation is also finicky, would still be very welcome by many and would benefit even DDB itself
Well you see, if we have to homebrew classes and keep them out of The app, then technically there is no need for us to even use The website or even subscribe if we can get The books anywhere else. So I believe this feature, as poorly working as it would be, considering how homebrew subclass creation is also finicky, would still be very welcome by many and would benefit even DDB itself
If subclass creation is finicky, imagine what it would look like if they implemented homebrew class creation. As much as I would love to see it, there are simply way too many variables to consider for an entire class chassis compared to subclass.
They would have to let people literally get into the code of the website to code their own mechanics in order to halfway support homebrew classes. That's not good, sustainable, or probably even possible in a site that emphasizes using those classes/subclasses and putting them together into a character sheet to automate stats and abilities and rolls.
Skywise joked about it earlier in this thread, but honestly it kind of IS too hard to even think about. How could the devs possibly account for each new mechanic that a homebrew class would come up with?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Does anyone at least know of any good tools for homebrew class creation?
For my campaign I'm trying to make my players fight god and I feel making a character with a homebrew class and race is better than a monster with really high stats.
Does anyone at least know of any good tools for homebrew class creation?
For my campaign I'm trying to make my players fight god and I feel making a character with a homebrew class and race is better than a monster with really high stats.
Anything built on a character chassis is going to be way too brittle. The game is designed with monsters as fundamentally different from characters.
Ultimately, it's going to be a one-off set of stats and powers, and, while you could build it as a class, you're wasting effort doing it that way.
I want to give them a large spells list, array of weapons and extra features. I'm basically making a level 20 character as an enemy, monsters don't have what I need.
I want to give them a large spells list, array of weapons and extra features. I'm basically making a level 20 character as an enemy, monsters don't have what I need.
The approach you want to take doesn’t make sense to me either. Constraining a god to the framework of a level 20 character class you create sounds extremely limiting to its power unless you intend to make it an order of magnitude stronger than character classes are intended to be while also being needlessly complex. If you want more spells, an array of weapons, and extra features a character class creator is not going to be nearly as simple as pulling up your favorite word processor and just writing down all the powers you want your BBEG to have.
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It's not worth the resources.
People already use the homebrew system to create official options not owned here as a way of circumventing owning the content via the digital platform. Opening up the entire system means supporting the system and it means supporting it from a development perspective, a data storage perspective and a live service perspective. What's the ROI on that if those people aren't paying?
Sure, Wizards can easily afford it but let's also be real. We're in a capitalist world and if there isn't a tangible, easy to understand model to make money it won't happen.
Emphasis mine.
Nobody here is saying we don't want to see homebrew classes. We're saying that it doesn't make business sense for WotC to invest in it. You haven't really explained where the money is going to come from. Do you think that a ton of new people will subscribe and buy digital books if WotC gives them a free new tool? I don't.
I don’t believe either one of us have information on the accounting side of this business and what they can or can’t green light budgets for. I would imagine it takes the right Project Manager convincing the correct Hasbro exec that this idea can reflect dollar signs in their wolfishly dilated pupils.
Do I Skywise personally think it would incentivize new customers? Perhaps… I suppose if it helped to further lock in their base subscribers by allowing them to do things that they currently can do WITHOUT D&D Beyond, then it will excite the players these subscribers bring into the fold. I think if it was marketed the right way that it could look sleek and desirable and make people thirst for its use. “Dreams come true with YOU at D&D Beyond!” Pretty catchy, right?
I am just fighting the good fight . I’m rooting for this to happen because before D&D Beyond was part of the process, I would make up a new character class and we brought our pens and paper and dice and books and we could write stuff in and play that made up Frankenstein of a class, broken as it was, and have a good time. I want that here too. And a slice of cheese cake.
No one is stopping us from playing the old school way, I just think that if we don’t try to have things like a home brew class creation option within D&D Beyond that it is like taking the corpus collosum out of D&D when you play.
"What you saw belongs to you. A story doesn't live until it is imagined in someone's mind."
― Brandon Sanderson, The Way of Kings
There is a easy way that WotC can still make money from homebrew classes: lock it behind the subscription. Many will bemoan this, but as someone who pays already a sub and many others that do, it would add more value to the sub with little cost from WotCs side.
What would the rules of Class creation be?
A list that does not contradict any already published official classes or those class's features.
They should have fleshed this system out years ago. Something for developers to follow at least.
That's a good question. Who knows, with the 5.24 update, maybe they rework the structure of classes and subclasses, since they probably don't have to support new stuff for the 5.14 versions anymore. Since DNDBeyond was acquired by WotC they could have been working a lot in the background on a new framework for classes during the 5.24 PHB development. I mean, Maps came out of nowhere. So a class/subclass framework update for 5.24 that also allows homebrew, and also 3rd party classes that sell on DDB, might be in the works.
Wishful Hope, but it could happen.
Maps didn't come out of nowhere. It was a step toward the VTT that they've had their eyes on for years. Homebrew classes were never really on the roadmap, even when the roadmap was public. And if anything, development on DDB slowed down dramatically post-acquisition, so I would not hold my breath.
it could have slowed down, as there was no point in big changes for the 5.14 version, when they could already start at the 5.24 version. And as you say: since they were acquired. So the very moment they could get full access to the 5.24 development team. If i look at the marketplace it looks quite different. Maps uses the same header as the marketplace. They both don't use the normal DDB header. I wouldn't be surprised once the PHB drops, that DDB might change the look, and perhaps functionality too. This would give them a huge leap ahead of other D&D sheet hosting services like roll20.
Yeah, I mean DDB could also gain an advantage by no longer providing third-party services with licensed material. Somehow I think that's more likely.
But here's hoping!
Constraining creativity for WoT profits is why DnD has gone down hill in the past decade. The only thing 5 ed did was allow a clearer approach to combat. Other that that…? It’s story time for bonzo and other non thinking types…. Short rest, long rest..? What a joke. There are no consequences in DnD. You don’t have to think to solve probs and survive, just short rest your way to 30th gorillion level. This is why smart people have been leaving 5th ed for years and it’s only getting worse.
I know that this question wasn't directed at me and that this post is fairly old already, but I do have an answer/opinion on it if you or anyone else is cares to hear it.
The profits would come from the subscriptions. The entire reason I had the top tier subscription for years was to support improvements like that on the site. I realize that these things aren't free or easy, so I gave them my money every month to help make these improvements happen. As did many other people. Obviously I was mistaken in thinking that the money from the subscriptions would go towards improving the site in these ways. I understand and acknowledge that now.
You're right though, people are still subscribing and buying books despite the lack of new features and improvements on the site. Just as I was for a long time. They have no motivation to do any of those things, because they're getting our money already without doing those things. My argument would not be "that there are armies of people not buying legendary bundles because they can't currently make a homebrew class", but instead that people (if they feel the same as I do) should be refusing to subscribe and buy books on the site if the site is not providing them with the things that they want. That is why I've recently cancelled my subscription and have chosen to stop buying books on this site. I'm not so delusional as to think my measly few dollars matters to this company or will make any real difference, but as a consumer voting with my dollar is the only power I have.
Not really, you should be able to easily modularize all of the stats/classes/editions.
i.e. For X stat you get +x. Or -x. Or x spell or what not.
us edition x.
then for classes use UA. Don’t use UA.
Well you see, if we have to homebrew classes and keep them out of The app, then technically there is no need for us to even use The website or even subscribe if we can get The books anywhere else. So I believe this feature, as poorly working as it would be, considering how homebrew subclass creation is also finicky, would still be very welcome by many and would benefit even DDB itself
If subclass creation is finicky, imagine what it would look like if they implemented homebrew class creation. As much as I would love to see it, there are simply way too many variables to consider for an entire class chassis compared to subclass.
They would have to let people literally get into the code of the website to code their own mechanics in order to halfway support homebrew classes. That's not good, sustainable, or probably even possible in a site that emphasizes using those classes/subclasses and putting them together into a character sheet to automate stats and abilities and rolls.
Skywise joked about it earlier in this thread, but honestly it kind of IS too hard to even think about. How could the devs possibly account for each new mechanic that a homebrew class would come up with?
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Does anyone at least know of any good tools for homebrew class creation?
For my campaign I'm trying to make my players fight god and I feel making a character with a homebrew class and race is better than a monster with really high stats.
Anything built on a character chassis is going to be way too brittle. The game is designed with monsters as fundamentally different from characters.
Ultimately, it's going to be a one-off set of stats and powers, and, while you could build it as a class, you're wasting effort doing it that way.
I want to give them a large spells list, array of weapons and extra features. I'm basically making a level 20 character as an enemy, monsters don't have what I need.
The approach you want to take doesn’t make sense to me either. Constraining a god to the framework of a level 20 character class you create sounds extremely limiting to its power unless you intend to make it an order of magnitude stronger than character classes are intended to be while also being needlessly complex. If you want more spells, an array of weapons, and extra features a character class creator is not going to be nearly as simple as pulling up your favorite word processor and just writing down all the powers you want your BBEG to have.