The reason you rush into Xanathar's lair and beat him up isn't because he's a monster, it's because he's got minions out there killing, stealing, kidnapping people for his personal arena fights, replacing people's brains, etc.
But why does that justify you smashing in doors, chasing after him on the whims of what some guy in a bar might say?
Having loose standards of evidence is a rather common component of adventure fiction. You could probably turn W:DH into a police procedural, but it would be a very different module.
I'm not asking for a police procedural, but it's awfully funny how the first person an adventurer sees seems to always have a very clear "go beat these guys up" quest, and you're just taking them at their word...
And that somehow your adventurers never have an issue just rolling up to some Noble's house and busting down the door and beating the crap out of people.
At least that was my original point in that quoted text, and it was to point out player actions and their in game preferences as to how to play.
any time you start to talk about Dungeons you should always introduce a definition of it, because after all, the term comes from the name for a castle, slightly deprecated to refer to the jail of a keep by mid 20th century. "Goin to the dungeon, dearie" Jas said as he grabbed his cap. "Prithee the Lord dun take mah hands!".
Note as well the shift in language around what was once called Modules and is now called Adventures.
Note that under the definition you provide, there is no adventure that cannot be called a Dungeon, even a Hexcrawl, which is historically used to describe the act of exploring a place, with anywhere you go you are tracking movement on an area by area, where each area is defined with stuff that happens there which may include traps, monsters, finding treasure, meeting someone interesting or what have you, butis typically considered distinct from a dungeon.
Note that I disagree, mind, just pointing it out. However, in so doing I will note that Dungeons, then, include every published Adventure, ever, and that they are not separated from moral quandaries or grey area issues or the assertion that folks just want or don't want to slice their way through things.
So far as I can tell, 1e B/X or BECMI adventures were called Dungeon Modules while 1e AD&D stuff was called Game Adventures or Adventure Modules. In either case the transition took place during 1st edition, so its not like they were called Modules until 5e came out or something, they have been adventure modules since 1e.
Not trying to make a point or anything, just an interesting factoid that has no bearing on anything other than the fact I had never noticed it before :)
I do think there is a subtle distinction between a Hex Crawl and a Dungeon Crawl, at least in 1e B/X there were two distinct mechanics that worked differently. For overland travel, you had Wilderness Adventures and Seafaring Adventure rules, while for Dungeons you had Dungeon Adventure Rules. It had mostly to do with the sort of activities you could do during a "turn", which in an overland adventure was essentially a day while in a dungeon was 10 minutes. Still general process was the same, you explored, dealt with whatever was listed in the area, had random encounters etc...
Procedurally hex crawls and dungeon crawls were a little different but I can't think of a published hex crawl adventure that didn't also include a dungeon to explore. Even stuff like Test of the Warlord which was primarily focused on Hex Crawling, politics and Kingdom building had several dungeons to explore.
But lets limit the concept of a Dungeon to "something underground". Even under that definition, can anyone name an adventure module without a dungeon?
I'm not asking for a police procedural, but it's awfully funny how the first person an adventurer sees seems to always have a very clear "go beat these guys up" quest, and you're just taking them at their word...
Oh sure. A lot of adventures are still quite dubious in their morality, but they at least make a gesture, rather than the plot hook just being "You should go beat these guys up because they have valuable stuff you can steal".
On complex, potentially controversial, possibly political stories/dungeon/adventures/settings.
This isn't to call out anyone here specifically. I have seen many threads, across different forums, on Reddit on private groups, and so forth and there is a strong, substantial minority of players (and yes, I am saying that correctly) who consistently assert that D&D no longer allows for there to be these "dark", "morally questionable", "edgy" things.
That's poppycock. WotC won't publish certain things themselves, but they did publish "let's all go to hell and drive armed dune buggies around". Anyone who has played both the original Curse of Strahd and the current Curse of Strahd will tell you they made Strahd more questionable, more powerful, and gave him a whole new layer of stuff in that vein. Yes, they have "fixed the Vistani" in order to avoid the issue with the Roma, but it is a partial fix, and to argue that 5e is now "free of racism" is both ignorant and asinine.
It is laughable to me that folks confuse things like "all the people of this sort should have X score because C" and "No kind of people are inherently evil" with everything suddenly being a moral challenge about "Should I walk into that Goblin's house and kill them and take their stuff?".
"But Wizards won't do it". Sorry, but if you want something that looks different from FR, stop bleeping looking to wizards for it, because it aint gonna happen. That's the old man shouting at the wind in action right there, unless one is not a man or old, in which case one is merely acting like it. WotC won't do that because it needs to keep growing the population of people who play the game, and the ore of that stuff you have, the smaller your market size will be. That's it.
That doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Or that it isn't being done.
In a particular world there are three kingdoms. At the border of these three kingdoms lies a salt mine. Kingdom Abba says to its soldiers that Kingdom Baab and Kingdom Shiv are filled with nothing but the lowest form of scum, evil through and through. The other two kingdoms do the same.
A group of adventurers from different backgrounds meets up. Two are from each of the three kingdoms. They all see through the propaganda, but more importantly, they all understand that their party members aren't like the rest of those other people from those kingdoms.
That's a really basic set up with some peculiar details that establishes a lot of stuff (not just D&D, but also, for example, star wars) from pretty much any form or fashion of entertainment produced since 1980 for mainstream audiences. 1980 matters because it was the end of the first backlash to the Civil Rights Act.
That's how D&D currently handles it. Let me point out that the above *is crammed full of bad*. Life sucks, grab yer bucket, keep bailing.
On FR, is there any Red Wizard of Thay that doesn't deserve killing? Seriously -- I have no idea if there is or isn't. FR is like my least favorite setting of all time, lol. It is everything wrong with setting building to me (to me, not speaking for anyone else).
A moral quandary is the Evil Vampire ensures that people in the village always have plenty of food and are taken care of and their children are safe, but he also eats them (ok, ok, drinks them dry) when he gets hungry -- but if he is killed, the village will begin to starve and the people will be rendered homeless.
1. As for controversial topics, the problem is avoiding them at all costs is infantile and doesn't let anything get addressed, only left to fester.
It's also an automatic shutdown of opposition but also criticism within. It leads to purity purges within a group and radicalization.
Look, I tried writing this next part 3 times and it either just leads to too much personal info or things that get scrubbed for censorship here.
I'm just leaving it at that. The knee jerk response to call people fascist or racist, or anything without at least getting an actual proof/comment is REALLY REALLY REALLY ungood.
If you have a question what they mean, ask for clarification and draw it.out. make them say it.
Trust me, they will.
2. Your three kingdoms is basically 1984. Propaganda, the three factions, all of it..lol.
3.Evil vampire is what I'd love to see, but I see it going either 1 or 2 ways: 1. Players do what players do and kill vampire cause evil, 2. Get frustrated. Possibly get past it, but will probably go for #1 and say they had no choice and something about railroading....
any time you start to talk about Dungeons you should always introduce a definition of it, because after all, the term comes from the name for a castle, slightly deprecated to refer to the jail of a keep by mid 20th century. "Goin to the dungeon, dearie" Jas said as he grabbed his cap. "Prithee the Lord dun take mah hands!".
Note as well the shift in language around what was once called Modules and is now called Adventures.
Note that under the definition you provide, there is no adventure that cannot be called a Dungeon, even a Hexcrawl, which is historically used to describe the act of exploring a place, with anywhere you go you are tracking movement on an area by area, where each area is defined with stuff that happens there which may include traps, monsters, finding treasure, meeting someone interesting or what have you, butis typically considered distinct from a dungeon.
Note that I disagree, mind, just pointing it out. However, in so doing I will note that Dungeons, then, include every published Adventure, ever, and that they are not separated from moral quandaries or grey area issues or the assertion that folks just want or don't want to slice their way through things.
So far as I can tell, 1e B/X or BECMI adventures were called Dungeon Modules while 1e AD&D stuff was called Game Adventures or Adventure Modules. In either case the transition took place during 1st edition, so its not like they were called Modules until 5e came out or something, they have been adventure modules since 1e.
Not trying to make a point or anything, just an interesting factoid that has no bearing on anything other than the fact I had never noticed it before :)
I do think there is a subtle distinction between a Hex Crawl and a Dungeon Crawl, at least in 1e B/X there were two distinct mechanics that worked differently. For overland travel, you had Wilderness Adventures and Seafaring Adventure rules, while for Dungeons you had Dungeon Adventure Rules. It had mostly to do with the sort of activities you could do during a "turn", which in an overland adventure was essentially a day while in a dungeon was 10 minutes. Still general process was the same, you explored, dealt with whatever was listed in the area, had random encounters etc...
Procedurally hex crawls and dungeon crawls were a little different but I can't think of a published hex crawl adventure that didn't also include a dungeon to explore. Even stuff like Test of the Warlord which was primarily focused on Hex Crawling, politics and Kingdom building had several dungeons to explore.
But lets limit the concept of a Dungeon to "something underground". Even under that definition, can anyone name an adventure module without a dungeon?
Won't speak to B/X (because BECMI adopted the AD&D format), but the official term for the published items was Modules until 3e arrived.
Most modules were often described as "an adventure for # to # characters of levels #-#", but the name of them was modules. Wizards is the one who reset that to Adventures (which, really, makes sense).
I presume a Cellar or basement would count as "underground for purposes of identifying something?
Also, note that some of the books are actually collections of adventures -- and those individual ones would count.
If basements and cellars don't count, then "Reach for the Stars" from Golden Vault would qualify.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Won't speak to B/X (because BECMI adopted the AD&D format), but the official term for the published items was Modules until 3e arrived.
Most modules were often described as "an adventure for # to # characters of levels #-#", but the name of them was modules. Wizards is the one who reset that to Adventures (which, really, makes sense).
I presume a Cellar or basement would count as "underground for purposes of identifying something?
Also, note that some of the books are actually collections of adventures -- and those individual ones would count.
If basements and cellars don't count, then "Reach for the Stars" from Golden Vault would qualify.
Not that it actually matters, not even sure why I'm arguing this but that is factually incorrect.
B/X adventures were called Dungeon Modules
1st edition adventures were called Fantasy Adventure Modules
2nd- present-day adventures were called simply Adventures
So it was actually TSR that renamed it Adventures not Wizards of the Coast
If basements and cellars don't count, then "Reach for the Stars" from Golden Vault would qualify.
I think its about as close as we are going to get, though you peaked my interest, I might have to get this one
On complex, potentially controversial, possibly political stories/dungeon/adventures/settings.
This isn't to call out anyone here specifically. I have seen many threads, across different forums, on Reddit on private groups, and so forth and there is a strong, substantial minority of players (and yes, I am saying that correctly) who consistently assert that D&D no longer allows for there to be these "dark", "morally questionable", "edgy" things.
That's poppycock. WotC won't publish certain things themselves, but they did publish "let's all go to hell and drive armed dune buggies around". Anyone who has played both the original Curse of Strahd and the current Curse of Strahd will tell you they made Strahd more questionable, more powerful, and gave him a whole new layer of stuff in that vein. Yes, they have "fixed the Vistani" in order to avoid the issue with the Roma, but it is a partial fix, and to argue that 5e is now "free of racism" is both ignorant and asinine.
It is laughable to me that folks confuse things like "all the people of this sort should have X score because C" and "No kind of people are inherently evil" with everything suddenly being a moral challenge about "Should I walk into that Goblin's house and kill them and take their stuff?".
"But Wizards won't do it". Sorry, but if you want something that looks different from FR, stop bleeping looking to wizards for it, because it aint gonna happen. That's the old man shouting at the wind in action right there, unless one is not a man or old, in which case one is merely acting like it. WotC won't do that because it needs to keep growing the population of people who play the game, and the ore of that stuff you have, the smaller your market size will be. That's it.
That doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Or that it isn't being done.
In a particular world there are three kingdoms. At the border of these three kingdoms lies a salt mine. Kingdom Abba says to its soldiers that Kingdom Baab and Kingdom Shiv are filled with nothing but the lowest form of scum, evil through and through. The other two kingdoms do the same.
A group of adventurers from different backgrounds meets up. Two are from each of the three kingdoms. They all see through the propaganda, but more importantly, they all understand that their party members aren't like the rest of those other people from those kingdoms.
That's a really basic set up with some peculiar details that establishes a lot of stuff (not just D&D, but also, for example, star wars) from pretty much any form or fashion of entertainment produced since 1980 for mainstream audiences. 1980 matters because it was the end of the first backlash to the Civil Rights Act.
That's how D&D currently handles it. Let me point out that the above *is crammed full of bad*. Life sucks, grab yer bucket, keep bailing.
On FR, is there any Red Wizard of Thay that doesn't deserve killing? Seriously -- I have no idea if there is or isn't. FR is like my least favorite setting of all time, lol. It is everything wrong with setting building to me (to me, not speaking for anyone else).
A moral quandary is the Evil Vampire ensures that people in the village always have plenty of food and are taken care of and their children are safe, but he also eats them (ok, ok, drinks them dry) when he gets hungry -- but if he is killed, the village will begin to starve and the people will be rendered homeless.
1. As for controversial topics, the problem is avoiding them at all costs is infantile and doesn't let anything get addressed, only left to fester.
It's also an automatic shutdown of opposition but also criticism within. It leads to purity purges within a group and radicalization.
Look, I tried writing this next part 3 times and it either just leads to too much personal info or things that get scrubbed for censorship here.
I'm just leaving it at that. The knee jerk response to call people fascist or racist, or anything without at least getting an actual proof/comment is REALLY REALLY REALLY ungood.
If you have a question what they mean, ask for clarification and draw it.out. make them say it.
Trust me, they will.
2. Your three kingdoms is basically 1984. Propaganda, the three factions, all of it..lol.
3.Evil vampire is what I'd love to see, but I see it going either 1 or 2 ways: 1. Players do what players do and kill vampire cause evil, 2. Get frustrated. Possibly get past it, but will probably go for #1 and say they had no choice and something about railroading....
That whole issue of "avoiding stuff" though, actually has a rule in 5e, you know. The Zero Session. The core premise is to discuss what players in a game will and will not have an issue with. Since this is all within the context of "in a game", of course, it is usually far less stressful.
THe forums, however, well, they are not so much, and there is an excellent primer on the method of operations for the larger structural nature of such things in action.
I can say that I have never used either of those terms in a knee jerk way. But I know many who do (often the very people the terms are flung at most often). However, you are wise to have avoided more, Time and Place -- neither is now.
And of course they will. It is one of my gifts to bring it out, lol. I just rarely have the patience for it anymore because I've been doing it since I was 5.
Two
Not just 1984. Star Trek, Star Wars, Krull (been dying to make that reference) -- hell, you can likely grab any major work of speculative fiction and while the third kingdom may be offscreen, they still exist. It is a certain way to handle such "problem children" that derives from the significant lack of awareness on the part of the layfolk on the function and operation of these social systems (Gender, Race, Sexuality, Social Role, Religion, Capability, et alia) at a level above the personal that perpetuates them, and in doing, has been co-opted by those very forces to further its purposes, lol.
Imagine my joy watching tv shows -- I can't *not* see it.
Three
A way that you may not have seen is that players will opt to make the three week journey to the nearest noble, ask for him to grant them the estates if they can overcome the deep and abiding evil and take the oath to care for the peasants, then journey back with an entire wagon train of supplies and start a year long side quest to be Robin Hoods.
They *did* kill the Vamp, but they also gained a base, a host of loyal followers, and immense renown. Then they gave it to the family that helped them, lol.
Always remember players will never do what you expect them to do, lol. And it was a SIDE QUEST!
THe miserable rotten stinkin...
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Won't speak to B/X (because BECMI adopted the AD&D format), but the official term for the published items was Modules until 3e arrived.
Most modules were often described as "an adventure for # to # characters of levels #-#", but the name of them was modules. Wizards is the one who reset that to Adventures (which, really, makes sense).
I presume a Cellar or basement would count as "underground for purposes of identifying something?
Also, note that some of the books are actually collections of adventures -- and those individual ones would count.
If basements and cellars don't count, then "Reach for the Stars" from Golden Vault would qualify.
Not that it actually matters, not even sure why I'm arguing this but that is factually incorrect.
B/X adventures were called Dungeon Modules
1st edition adventures were called Fantasy Adventure Modules
2nd- present-day adventures were called simply Adventures
So it was actually TSR that renamed it Adventures not Wizards of the Coast
If basements and cellars don't count, then "Reach for the Stars" from Golden Vault would qualify.
I think its about as close as we are going to get, though you peaked my interest, I might have to get this one
I could go deeper on the naming (because many B/X didn't even have a designation properly, but AD&D did) but nah...
Golden Vault is...
interesting. The central conceit is a series of heists, at least two very obviously inspired by mission impossible films (early ones). Not really any new mechanics, an interesting choice in one to place a casino in a series of caves (that can easily moved to a surface level), A surface adventure with a "1 room dungeon" inside a crystal worn around the neck of a noblewoman, and some pleasant idea driving stuff.
I'm unlikely to use them as written -- even localized -- but some of them have some interesting ideas I am quite fond of (especially since I have a planned later adventure based on the four modern Ocean's movies plus the original).
I give it a 6/10, but I note that I am grudging and biased, and my highest rating for a current published adventure is a 7, which is Curse.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
On complex, potentially controversial, possibly political stories/dungeon/adventures/settings.
This isn't to call out anyone here specifically. I have seen many threads, across different forums, on Reddit on private groups, and so forth and there is a strong, substantial minority of players (and yes, I am saying that correctly) who consistently assert that D&D no longer allows for there to be these "dark", "morally questionable", "edgy" things.
That's poppycock. WotC won't publish certain things themselves, but they did publish "let's all go to hell and drive armed dune buggies around". Anyone who has played both the original Curse of Strahd and the current Curse of Strahd will tell you they made Strahd more questionable, more powerful, and gave him a whole new layer of stuff in that vein. Yes, they have "fixed the Vistani" in order to avoid the issue with the Roma, but it is a partial fix, and to argue that 5e is now "free of racism" is both ignorant and asinine.
It is laughable to me that folks confuse things like "all the people of this sort should have X score because C" and "No kind of people are inherently evil" with everything suddenly being a moral challenge about "Should I walk into that Goblin's house and kill them and take their stuff?".
"But Wizards won't do it". Sorry, but if you want something that looks different from FR, stop bleeping looking to wizards for it, because it aint gonna happen. That's the old man shouting at the wind in action right there, unless one is not a man or old, in which case one is merely acting like it. WotC won't do that because it needs to keep growing the population of people who play the game, and the ore of that stuff you have, the smaller your market size will be. That's it.
That doesn't mean that it cannot be done. Or that it isn't being done.
In a particular world there are three kingdoms. At the border of these three kingdoms lies a salt mine. Kingdom Abba says to its soldiers that Kingdom Baab and Kingdom Shiv are filled with nothing but the lowest form of scum, evil through and through. The other two kingdoms do the same.
A group of adventurers from different backgrounds meets up. Two are from each of the three kingdoms. They all see through the propaganda, but more importantly, they all understand that their party members aren't like the rest of those other people from those kingdoms.
That's a really basic set up with some peculiar details that establishes a lot of stuff (not just D&D, but also, for example, star wars) from pretty much any form or fashion of entertainment produced since 1980 for mainstream audiences. 1980 matters because it was the end of the first backlash to the Civil Rights Act.
That's how D&D currently handles it. Let me point out that the above *is crammed full of bad*. Life sucks, grab yer bucket, keep bailing.
On FR, is there any Red Wizard of Thay that doesn't deserve killing? Seriously -- I have no idea if there is or isn't. FR is like my least favorite setting of all time, lol. It is everything wrong with setting building to me (to me, not speaking for anyone else).
A moral quandary is the Evil Vampire ensures that people in the village always have plenty of food and are taken care of and their children are safe, but he also eats them (ok, ok, drinks them dry) when he gets hungry -- but if he is killed, the village will begin to starve and the people will be rendered homeless.
1. As for controversial topics, the problem is avoiding them at all costs is infantile and doesn't let anything get addressed, only left to fester.
It's also an automatic shutdown of opposition but also criticism within. It leads to purity purges within a group and radicalization.
Look, I tried writing this next part 3 times and it either just leads to too much personal info or things that get scrubbed for censorship here.
I'm just leaving it at that. The knee jerk response to call people fascist or racist, or anything without at least getting an actual proof/comment is REALLY REALLY REALLY ungood.
If you have a question what they mean, ask for clarification and draw it.out. make them say it.
Trust me, they will.
2. Your three kingdoms is basically 1984. Propaganda, the three factions, all of it..lol.
3.Evil vampire is what I'd love to see, but I see it going either 1 or 2 ways: 1. Players do what players do and kill vampire cause evil, 2. Get frustrated. Possibly get past it, but will probably go for #1 and say they had no choice and something about railroading....
That whole issue of "avoiding stuff" though, actually has a rule in 5e, you know. The Zero Session. The core premise is to discuss what players in a game will and will not have an issue with. Since this is all within the context of "in a game", of course, it is usually far less stressful.
THe forums, however, well, they are not so much, and there is an excellent primer on the method of operations for the larger structural nature of such things in action.
I can say that I have never used either of those terms in a knee jerk way. But I know many who do (often the very people the terms are flung at most often). However, you are wise to have avoided more, Time and Place -- neither is now.
And of course they will. It is one of my gifts to bring it out, lol. I just rarely have the patience for it anymore because I've been doing it since I was 5.
Two
Not just 1984. Star Trek, Star Wars, Krull (been dying to make that reference) -- hell, you can likely grab any major work of speculative fiction and while the third kingdom may be offscreen, they still exist. It is a certain way to handle such "problem children" that derives from the significant lack of awareness on the part of the layfolk on the function and operation of these social systems (Gender, Race, Sexuality, Social Role, Religion, Capability, et alia) at a level above the personal that perpetuates them, and in doing, has been co-opted by those very forces to further its purposes, lol.
Imagine my joy watching tv shows -- I can't *not* see it.
Three
A way that you may not have seen is that players will opt to make the three week journey to the nearest noble, ask for him to grant them the estates if they can overcome the deep and abiding evil and take the oath to care for the peasants, then journey back with an entire wagon train of supplies and start a year long side quest to be Robin Hoods.
They *did* kill the Vamp, but they also gained a base, a host of loyal followers, and immense renown. Then they gave it to the family that helped them, lol.
Always remember players will never do what you expect them to do, lol. And it was a SIDE QUEST!
THe miserable rotten stinkin...
I have yet to see 3. Your players are far less prone to mayhem..... or at least property damage....lol
It does help that I have table rules for the use of Hero Points and Inspiration, include renown and piety, and that all of it has a real impact.
Of course, it also means I get stuff like the Barb leaping off the keep wall into a pack of wolves while the Rogue is tearing through the keep looking for the coffin, and the Cleric is watching the mage trade spells with the Vamp (simplified example of real events) -- they have no problem splitting up and driving me mad trying to keep it all straight.
On the other hand, they always bring "sunlight" spells with them now, Just in case, you know.
Those Zero Sessions are how we do character creation -- as a group. Also how we avoid the railroading factor in getting them all together: we do a single session of pure role playing where they have to figure out how they all meet. Then at the start of the first session there is a time jump, and they start wherever I dump them with whatever flimsy ass reason I give them for why they are there.
Next campaign starts in the middle of a sand sea.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It does help that I have table rules for the use of Hero Points and Inspiration, include renown and piety, and that all of it has a real impact.
Of course, it also means I get stuff like the Barb leaping off the keep wall into a pack of wolves while the Rogue is tearing through the keep looking for the coffin, and the Cleric is watching the mage trade spells with the Vamp (simplified example of real events) -- they have no problem splitting up and driving me mad trying to keep it all straight.
On the other hand, they always bring "sunlight" spells with them now, Just in case, you know.
Those Zero Sessions are how we do character creation -- as a group. Also how we avoid the railroading factor in getting them all together: we do a single session of pure role playing where they have to figure out how they all meet. Then at the start of the first session there is a time jump, and they start wherever I dump them with whatever flimsy ass reason I give them for why they are there.
Next campaign starts in the middle of a sand sea.
I wasn't implying railroading was actually occuring. I was just implying that they will claim railroading when it's just setting up a situation that's either morally "unpleasant" or no real "win".
Life's just kind of like that and it's not forcing the truly awful, it's just your players/characters deal with "suck" and them wanting an appeal to authority because they like being superheroes.
I like those situations though, because it grounds things a bit, it gives something to reflect on, possibly character development and so on...
I'm not asking for a police procedural, but it's awfully funny how the first person an adventurer sees seems to always have a very clear "go beat these guys up" quest, and you're just taking them at their word...
And that somehow your adventurers never have an issue just rolling up to some Noble's house and busting down the door and beating the crap out of people.
At least that was my original point in that quoted text, and it was to point out player actions and their in game preferences as to how to play.
So far as I can tell, 1e B/X or BECMI adventures were called Dungeon Modules while 1e AD&D stuff was called Game Adventures or Adventure Modules. In either case the transition took place during 1st edition, so its not like they were called Modules until 5e came out or something, they have been adventure modules since 1e.
Not trying to make a point or anything, just an interesting factoid that has no bearing on anything other than the fact I had never noticed it before :)
I do think there is a subtle distinction between a Hex Crawl and a Dungeon Crawl, at least in 1e B/X there were two distinct mechanics that worked differently. For overland travel, you had Wilderness Adventures and Seafaring Adventure rules, while for Dungeons you had Dungeon Adventure Rules. It had mostly to do with the sort of activities you could do during a "turn", which in an overland adventure was essentially a day while in a dungeon was 10 minutes. Still general process was the same, you explored, dealt with whatever was listed in the area, had random encounters etc...
Procedurally hex crawls and dungeon crawls were a little different but I can't think of a published hex crawl adventure that didn't also include a dungeon to explore. Even stuff like Test of the Warlord which was primarily focused on Hex Crawling, politics and Kingdom building had several dungeons to explore.
But lets limit the concept of a Dungeon to "something underground". Even under that definition, can anyone name an adventure module without a dungeon?
Oh sure. A lot of adventures are still quite dubious in their morality, but they at least make a gesture, rather than the plot hook just being "You should go beat these guys up because they have valuable stuff you can steal".
1. As for controversial topics, the problem is avoiding them at all costs is infantile and doesn't let anything get addressed, only left to fester.
It's also an automatic shutdown of opposition but also criticism within. It leads to purity purges within a group and radicalization.
Look, I tried writing this next part 3 times and it either just leads to too much personal info or things that get scrubbed for censorship here.
I'm just leaving it at that. The knee jerk response to call people fascist or racist, or anything without at least getting an actual proof/comment is REALLY REALLY REALLY ungood.
If you have a question what they mean, ask for clarification and draw it.out. make them say it.
Trust me, they will.
2. Your three kingdoms is basically 1984. Propaganda, the three factions, all of it..lol.
3.Evil vampire is what I'd love to see, but I see it going either 1 or 2 ways: 1. Players do what players do and kill vampire cause evil, 2. Get frustrated. Possibly get past it, but will probably go for #1 and say they had no choice and something about railroading....
Won't speak to B/X (because BECMI adopted the AD&D format), but the official term for the published items was Modules until 3e arrived.
Most modules were often described as "an adventure for # to # characters of levels #-#", but the name of them was modules. Wizards is the one who reset that to Adventures (which, really, makes sense).
I presume a Cellar or basement would count as "underground for purposes of identifying something?
Also, note that some of the books are actually collections of adventures -- and those individual ones would count.
If basements and cellars don't count, then "Reach for the Stars" from Golden Vault would qualify.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Not that it actually matters, not even sure why I'm arguing this but that is factually incorrect.
B/X adventures were called Dungeon Modules
1st edition adventures were called Fantasy Adventure Modules
2nd- present-day adventures were called simply Adventures
So it was actually TSR that renamed it Adventures not Wizards of the Coast
I think its about as close as we are going to get, though you peaked my interest, I might have to get this one
That whole issue of "avoiding stuff" though, actually has a rule in 5e, you know. The Zero Session. The core premise is to discuss what players in a game will and will not have an issue with. Since this is all within the context of "in a game", of course, it is usually far less stressful.
THe forums, however, well, they are not so much, and there is an excellent primer on the method of operations for the larger structural nature of such things in action.
I can say that I have never used either of those terms in a knee jerk way. But I know many who do (often the very people the terms are flung at most often). However, you are wise to have avoided more, Time and Place -- neither is now.
And of course they will. It is one of my gifts to bring it out, lol. I just rarely have the patience for it anymore because I've been doing it since I was 5.
Two
Not just 1984. Star Trek, Star Wars, Krull (been dying to make that reference) -- hell, you can likely grab any major work of speculative fiction and while the third kingdom may be offscreen, they still exist. It is a certain way to handle such "problem children" that derives from the significant lack of awareness on the part of the layfolk on the function and operation of these social systems (Gender, Race, Sexuality, Social Role, Religion, Capability, et alia) at a level above the personal that perpetuates them, and in doing, has been co-opted by those very forces to further its purposes, lol.
Imagine my joy watching tv shows -- I can't *not* see it.
Three
A way that you may not have seen is that players will opt to make the three week journey to the nearest noble, ask for him to grant them the estates if they can overcome the deep and abiding evil and take the oath to care for the peasants, then journey back with an entire wagon train of supplies and start a year long side quest to be Robin Hoods.
They *did* kill the Vamp, but they also gained a base, a host of loyal followers, and immense renown. Then they gave it to the family that helped them, lol.
Always remember players will never do what you expect them to do, lol. And it was a SIDE QUEST!
THe miserable rotten stinkin...
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I could go deeper on the naming (because many B/X didn't even have a designation properly, but AD&D did) but nah...
Golden Vault is...
interesting. The central conceit is a series of heists, at least two very obviously inspired by mission impossible films (early ones). Not really any new mechanics, an interesting choice in one to place a casino in a series of caves (that can easily moved to a surface level), A surface adventure with a "1 room dungeon" inside a crystal worn around the neck of a noblewoman, and some pleasant idea driving stuff.
I'm unlikely to use them as written -- even localized -- but some of them have some interesting ideas I am quite fond of (especially since I have a planned later adventure based on the four modern Ocean's movies plus the original).
I give it a 6/10, but I note that I am grudging and biased, and my highest rating for a current published adventure is a 7, which is Curse.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I have yet to see 3. Your players are far less prone to mayhem..... or at least property damage....lol
Nah, they wreck everything. Point of pride.
It does help that I have table rules for the use of Hero Points and Inspiration, include renown and piety, and that all of it has a real impact.
Of course, it also means I get stuff like the Barb leaping off the keep wall into a pack of wolves while the Rogue is tearing through the keep looking for the coffin, and the Cleric is watching the mage trade spells with the Vamp (simplified example of real events) -- they have no problem splitting up and driving me mad trying to keep it all straight.
On the other hand, they always bring "sunlight" spells with them now, Just in case, you know.
Those Zero Sessions are how we do character creation -- as a group. Also how we avoid the railroading factor in getting them all together: we do a single session of pure role playing where they have to figure out how they all meet. Then at the start of the first session there is a time jump, and they start wherever I dump them with whatever flimsy ass reason I give them for why they are there.
Next campaign starts in the middle of a sand sea.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
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Are they having fun for the "right reason"? Question does not compute, we're all having fun, there is no right or wrong reason about it
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I wasn't implying railroading was actually occuring. I was just implying that they will claim railroading when it's just setting up a situation that's either morally "unpleasant" or no real "win".
Life's just kind of like that and it's not forcing the truly awful, it's just your players/characters deal with "suck" and them wanting an appeal to authority because they like being superheroes.
I like those situations though, because it grounds things a bit, it gives something to reflect on, possibly character development and so on...
It's not a play style I find many want though...
This was also known as running "Monty Hall campaigns" for you younglings! Us older folks will get the reference...