Its ridiculous how you guys just forget the number 1 rule of capitalism... first off, you are trying to change a system that has been working for thousands of years... that wont happen. of course they want money, no the problem do not lie in the money they want. but in how you perceive the money they ask you. but thats just that, you are perceiving / interpreting the physical books as cheaper, that is not the case. you are paying here only half the cost of the physical books. the legendary bundle literally cost you half the real value of any physical books. yet you claim the physical books are cheaper ?
let's do the math here... a physical book gets you a real physical copy of a book, but no services attached to it. youget literally nothing else then white pages with ink drawn into them...
a digital service like here, offers you literally, the book itself but has the added benefits of doing stuff automatically for you, aka no need to write anything down, just automatically aded, they give you 25% off the next purchases, for a lifetime. like literally all the books in the next edition will cost me even less. the books themselves do not cost 90$ each (canadian dollars yeah we pay a ton for our real books) they cost me about 35$ here each. and i have access to all the services they offer along with it. including a much much much better way of finding the information i need when i need it.
yet you continue to say physical books are better then this ? pretty much all of my friends and people i know would disagree with you on many basis. and even the two who loves having physical books instead of digital agree they are paying a ton more then me for it.
mathematically, you pay a ton less by being here then you would ever pay by using physical copies. and you dont have to work for it. unlike your physical copies who would require you to put the effort of putting it here. your asking people to start putting effort into dungeons and dragons. i think you underestimate how much people are willing to pay to not put effort into things.
i for one would really love to pay someone to do my lawn then have to do it myself.
This argument leaves out discounts and sales on physical books. It also ignores the fact that at some point all of this will go away and you "own" nothing. They can not take away or change what is in a physical book at will like the digital copies here.
All in all both forms have advantages and can be had at good prices now and again. Which is better is really very subjective and come down to use case for each person.
I have both physical and digital libraries and use both. I still play a couple of games with pencil and paper and books at the table only. They are fun but not many prefer to play that way, I do play more digital characters than pencil and paper characters.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Buy the hard copies. It is a far better deal. Most players only need one book, that being the PHB. We all know the math on who buys what.
Hard copies are good if you're playing with a local group of friends. Much less so if you're like me and my long-running group of internet friends. Honestly, D&DB is a great setup for us because one person splurged on Legendary a while back and so owns most of the books, and I can pay for the content-sharing membership so everyone gets access to the books. Plus just the ability to cross-link things like spell descriptions in class features or monster stats in adventure outlines can be pretty convenient too.
Given the fact that the new leadership at wotc has been quoted, many many times, as stating that the player base is under-monetized, do you really think that will continue? Run me through the math right now. How much does the Legendary package and your content-sharing package cost monthly, combined? And how many people can have access to the books via those packages?
Poorly framed question, but only because you presume there is a monthly cost to the Legendary pack, when there is not.
My master tier is 4.60 a month. I can share my stuff with 36 people that I know of for sure, because that's what's going on right now -- in six campaigns that all of them play in.
unless there is some newly added tier I am unaware of, that's the most expensive one.
Books wise, the calculation becomes harder because I have bought them over time as circumstances allowed, and not as a bundle, and I have picked up a few odds and ends of value as well.
USD $12.10 would be the cost of the three books from the OP plus my tier of sub on a monthly basis, but only for one year.
It costs more to use Roll20, and you get less sharing (but you do get more systems, and most folks don't have a huge group of players with decades of play)
The poster said "splurged on a Legendary". I have no idea how much that costs, but that implies cash was paid. And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
And going forward, do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
Master Tier allows you to share content in 5 campaigns, upto 12 players per campaign, ds theoretically up to 60 people. There are some annoying constraints on that, do it's not quite as generous as it sounds, but it is pretty good - if you have lots of players you play with, it can get quite cheap. For someone like me that only shares with his family? Not so much.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Buy the hard copies. It is a far better deal. Most players only need one book, that being the PHB. We all know the math on who buys what.
Hard copies are good if you're playing with a local group of friends. Much less so if you're like me and my long-running group of internet friends. Honestly, D&DB is a great setup for us because one person splurged on Legendary a while back and so owns most of the books, and I can pay for the content-sharing membership so everyone gets access to the books. Plus just the ability to cross-link things like spell descriptions in class features or monster stats in adventure outlines can be pretty convenient too.
Given the fact that the new leadership at wotc has been quoted, many many times, as stating that the player base is under-monetized, do you really think that will continue? Run me through the math right now. How much does the Legendary package and your content-sharing package cost monthly, combined? And how many people can have access to the books via those packages?
Poorly framed question, but only because you presume there is a monthly cost to the Legendary pack, when there is not.
My master tier is 4.60 a month. I can share my stuff with 36 people that I know of for sure, because that's what's going on right now -- in six campaigns that all of them play in.
unless there is some newly added tier I am unaware of, that's the most expensive one.
Books wise, the calculation becomes harder because I have bought them over time as circumstances allowed, and not as a bundle, and I have picked up a few odds and ends of value as well.
USD $12.10 would be the cost of the three books from the OP plus my tier of sub on a monthly basis, but only for one year.
It costs more to use Roll20, and you get less sharing (but you do get more systems, and most folks don't have a huge group of players with decades of play)
The poster said "splurged on a Legendary". I have no idea how much that costs, but that implies cash was paid. And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
And going forward, do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
If one person in a campaign has a Master-tier subscription, then all books owned on D&DB by everyone in the campaign are shared.
And regarding the monetization thing, as has already been said they're not going to go and upend their entire business model in an attempt to correct it. Typically it just means they're going to come up with something new to try to sell to people. My guess is they'll have a lot of optional bells and whistles that can be individually purchased on the new VTT they're planning to bring out, as well as a few tiers of membership for it.
Buy the hard copies. It is a far better deal. Most players only need one book, that being the PHB. We all know the math on who buys what.
Hard copies are good if you're playing with a local group of friends. Much less so if you're like me and my long-running group of internet friends. Honestly, D&DB is a great setup for us because one person splurged on Legendary a while back and so owns most of the books, and I can pay for the content-sharing membership so everyone gets access to the books. Plus just the ability to cross-link things like spell descriptions in class features or monster stats in adventure outlines can be pretty convenient too.
Given the fact that the new leadership at wotc has been quoted, many many times, as stating that the player base is under-monetized, do you really think that will continue? Run me through the math right now. How much does the Legendary package and your content-sharing package cost monthly, combined? And how many people can have access to the books via those packages?
Poorly framed question, but only because you presume there is a monthly cost to the Legendary pack, when there is not.
My master tier is 4.60 a month. I can share my stuff with 36 people that I know of for sure, because that's what's going on right now -- in six campaigns that all of them play in.
unless there is some newly added tier I am unaware of, that's the most expensive one.
Books wise, the calculation becomes harder because I have bought them over time as circumstances allowed, and not as a bundle, and I have picked up a few odds and ends of value as well.
USD $12.10 would be the cost of the three books from the OP plus my tier of sub on a monthly basis, but only for one year.
It costs more to use Roll20, and you get less sharing (but you do get more systems, and most folks don't have a huge group of players with decades of play)
The poster said "splurged on a Legendary". I have no idea how much that costs, but that implies cash was paid. And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
And going forward, do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
Ah. Okay, currently the Legendary Bundle is $1037.43 USD, contains 50 items, including all books and adventures except the absolute most recent ones. It is purchased as a single unit, not a monthly charge. You get an additional 15% discount on top of future purchases, and if you already have purchased several items, they reduce the price of the bundle to account for what you do have. So, right now, for me, it costs $591.23.
So when they say splurged, they mean they went whole hog and spent a fortune to get all the books one can get at that time. It is actually a better deal than what I did.
I've spent a few coins, but it was over a long period, and I never bought any bundles -- I just bought the books that would be of value to me digitally when I could afford them. Note -- I didn't have to buy them. I own all of the stuff in hardcover I need.
Now,
And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month?
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Right now, I am sharing Phandelver, Basic Rules, PHB, DMG, Tasha's, Xanathar's, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation, Wayfiner's Guide to Eberron, MotM, Journey's through the Radiant Citadel, and a varied assortment of bits and pieces with my entire group. Also, when I set up a campaign, I can choose which stuff they can use and which stuff they can't when making a character -- and that includes not just their homebrew stuff, but also the homebrew stuff of other folks here.
All they have to do is create a character for the campaign or co-DM with me.
lastly...
do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
I don't think WotC has a choice in the matter, lol. 70% of Hasbro's operating profit last year came from Magic/D&D. And that represents reliance on DMs and folks who want to either become DMs themselves or who just really want to have all the cool stuff that is the reason I bought thing I will never use like SCAG.
They absolutely will seek a way to monetize the player side, though, No question. ANd personally, without much evidence, I am inclined to think that will be based in the VTT set up ad in a more rapid cycling of game licenses like BG3 and such.
I'm out of the demo for such, just on age, but also on "value" since I have no interest in Eberron or FR as settings for my games.
However, they haven't announced or even hinted to any changes -- and so anything suggesting it is equally likely to be wrong.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Buy the hard copies. It is a far better deal. Most players only need one book, that being the PHB. We all know the math on who buys what.
Hard copies are good if you're playing with a local group of friends. Much less so if you're like me and my long-running group of internet friends. Honestly, D&DB is a great setup for us because one person splurged on Legendary a while back and so owns most of the books, and I can pay for the content-sharing membership so everyone gets access to the books. Plus just the ability to cross-link things like spell descriptions in class features or monster stats in adventure outlines can be pretty convenient too.
Given the fact that the new leadership at wotc has been quoted, many many times, as stating that the player base is under-monetized, do you really think that will continue? Run me through the math right now. How much does the Legendary package and your content-sharing package cost monthly, combined? And how many people can have access to the books via those packages?
Poorly framed question, but only because you presume there is a monthly cost to the Legendary pack, when there is not.
My master tier is 4.60 a month. I can share my stuff with 36 people that I know of for sure, because that's what's going on right now -- in six campaigns that all of them play in.
unless there is some newly added tier I am unaware of, that's the most expensive one.
Books wise, the calculation becomes harder because I have bought them over time as circumstances allowed, and not as a bundle, and I have picked up a few odds and ends of value as well.
USD $12.10 would be the cost of the three books from the OP plus my tier of sub on a monthly basis, but only for one year.
It costs more to use Roll20, and you get less sharing (but you do get more systems, and most folks don't have a huge group of players with decades of play)
The poster said "splurged on a Legendary". I have no idea how much that costs, but that implies cash was paid. And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
And going forward, do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
Ah. Okay, currently the Legendary Bundle is $1037.43 USD, contains 50 items, including all books and adventures except the absolute most recent ones. It is purchased as a single unit, not a monthly charge. You get an additional 15% discount on top of future purchases, and if you already have purchased several items, they reduce the price of the bundle to account for what you do have. So, right now, for me, it costs $591.23.
So when they say splurged, they mean they went whole hog and spent a fortune to get all the books one can get at that time. It is actually a better deal than what I did.
I've spent a few coins, but it was over a long period, and I never bought any bundles -- I just bought the books that would be of value to me digitally when I could afford them. Note -- I didn't have to buy them. I own all of the stuff in hardcover I need.
Now,
And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month?
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Right now, I am sharing Phandelver, Basic Rules, PHB, DMG, Tasha's, Xanathar's, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation, Wayfiner's Guide to Eberron, MotM, Journey's through the Radiant Citadel, and a varied assortment of bits and pieces with my entire group. Also, when I set up a campaign, I can choose which stuff they can use and which stuff they can't when making a character -- and that includes not just their homebrew stuff, but also the homebrew stuff of other folks here.
All they have to do is create a character for the campaign or co-DM with me.
lastly...
do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
I don't think WotC has a choice in the matter, lol. 70% of Hasbro's operating profit last year came from Magic/D&D. And that represents reliance on DMs and folks who want to either become DMs themselves or who just really want to have all the cool stuff that is the reason I bought thing I will never use like SCAG.
They absolutely will seek a way to monetize the player side, though, No question. ANd personally, without much evidence, I am inclined to think that will be based in the VTT set up ad in a more rapid cycling of game licenses like BG3 and such.
I'm out of the demo for such, just on age, but also on "value" since I have no interest in Eberron or FR as settings for my games.
However, they haven't announced or even hinted to any changes -- and so anything suggesting it is equally likely to be wrong.
OK, so as I I understand it, someone, right now, can buy pretty much everything for a tad under 600 US, and then tack on 4.60 a month to share that with a ton of people. But the retail rate was probably twice that in upfront costs. I am guessing the current discount is due to the fact that the PHB, DMG, and MM are being replaced in a year.
Meanwhile, I bought my PHB, and XGTE, obviously later, for about 50 bucks each. DMG and MM are about the same. Call it 200 US for 4 books. Players only need the PHB. DM needs the rest. I play my games in person now, so have no need for the online game. But I did play online during covid, and I had no issue using hard copies even then. The rationale for forking over that kind of cash, I will not understand.
How wotc will increase revenues with 6e, yeah, that is up for speculation. But there is zero doubt that each and every user who wants access to the VTT will be paying.
Buy the hard copies. It is a far better deal. Most players only need one book, that being the PHB. We all know the math on who buys what.
Hard copies are good if you're playing with a local group of friends. Much less so if you're like me and my long-running group of internet friends. Honestly, D&DB is a great setup for us because one person splurged on Legendary a while back and so owns most of the books, and I can pay for the content-sharing membership so everyone gets access to the books. Plus just the ability to cross-link things like spell descriptions in class features or monster stats in adventure outlines can be pretty convenient too.
Given the fact that the new leadership at wotc has been quoted, many many times, as stating that the player base is under-monetized, do you really think that will continue? Run me through the math right now. How much does the Legendary package and your content-sharing package cost monthly, combined? And how many people can have access to the books via those packages?
Poorly framed question, but only because you presume there is a monthly cost to the Legendary pack, when there is not.
My master tier is 4.60 a month. I can share my stuff with 36 people that I know of for sure, because that's what's going on right now -- in six campaigns that all of them play in.
unless there is some newly added tier I am unaware of, that's the most expensive one.
Books wise, the calculation becomes harder because I have bought them over time as circumstances allowed, and not as a bundle, and I have picked up a few odds and ends of value as well.
USD $12.10 would be the cost of the three books from the OP plus my tier of sub on a monthly basis, but only for one year.
It costs more to use Roll20, and you get less sharing (but you do get more systems, and most folks don't have a huge group of players with decades of play)
The poster said "splurged on a Legendary". I have no idea how much that costs, but that implies cash was paid. And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
And going forward, do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
Ah. Okay, currently the Legendary Bundle is $1037.43 USD, contains 50 items, including all books and adventures except the absolute most recent ones. It is purchased as a single unit, not a monthly charge. You get an additional 15% discount on top of future purchases, and if you already have purchased several items, they reduce the price of the bundle to account for what you do have. So, right now, for me, it costs $591.23.
So when they say splurged, they mean they went whole hog and spent a fortune to get all the books one can get at that time. It is actually a better deal than what I did.
I've spent a few coins, but it was over a long period, and I never bought any bundles -- I just bought the books that would be of value to me digitally when I could afford them. Note -- I didn't have to buy them. I own all of the stuff in hardcover I need.
Now,
And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month?
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Right now, I am sharing Phandelver, Basic Rules, PHB, DMG, Tasha's, Xanathar's, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation, Wayfiner's Guide to Eberron, MotM, Journey's through the Radiant Citadel, and a varied assortment of bits and pieces with my entire group. Also, when I set up a campaign, I can choose which stuff they can use and which stuff they can't when making a character -- and that includes not just their homebrew stuff, but also the homebrew stuff of other folks here.
All they have to do is create a character for the campaign or co-DM with me.
lastly...
do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
I don't think WotC has a choice in the matter, lol. 70% of Hasbro's operating profit last year came from Magic/D&D. And that represents reliance on DMs and folks who want to either become DMs themselves or who just really want to have all the cool stuff that is the reason I bought thing I will never use like SCAG.
They absolutely will seek a way to monetize the player side, though, No question. ANd personally, without much evidence, I am inclined to think that will be based in the VTT set up ad in a more rapid cycling of game licenses like BG3 and such.
I'm out of the demo for such, just on age, but also on "value" since I have no interest in Eberron or FR as settings for my games.
However, they haven't announced or even hinted to any changes -- and so anything suggesting it is equally likely to be wrong.
OK, so as I I understand it, someone, right now, can buy pretty much everything for a tad under 600 US, and then tack on 4.60 a month to share that with a ton of people. But the retail rate was probably twice that in upfront costs. I am guessing the current discount is due to the fact that the PHB, DMG, and MM are being replaced in a year.
Meanwhile, I bought my PHB, and XGTE, obviously later, for about 50 bucks each. DMG and MM are about the same. Call it 200 US for 4 books. Players only need the PHB. DM needs the rest. I play my games in person now, so have no need for the online game. But I did play online during covid, and I had no issue using hard copies even then. The rationale for forking over that kind of cash, I will not understand.
How wotc will increase revenues with 6e, yeah, that is up for speculation. But there is zero doubt that each and every user who wants access to the VTT will be paying.
Trying to pay-gate their VTT that aggressively doesn't seem like a good idea. They're the late-comers to the VTT party, demanding cash at the door is not gonna do them any favors unless they've got something absolutely revolutionary. More likely the absolute basic level is free, with all the cosmetics and conveniences paygated to draw out the money.
Buy the hard copies. It is a far better deal. Most players only need one book, that being the PHB. We all know the math on who buys what.
Hard copies are good if you're playing with a local group of friends. Much less so if you're like me and my long-running group of internet friends. Honestly, D&DB is a great setup for us because one person splurged on Legendary a while back and so owns most of the books, and I can pay for the content-sharing membership so everyone gets access to the books. Plus just the ability to cross-link things like spell descriptions in class features or monster stats in adventure outlines can be pretty convenient too.
Given the fact that the new leadership at wotc has been quoted, many many times, as stating that the player base is under-monetized, do you really think that will continue? Run me through the math right now. How much does the Legendary package and your content-sharing package cost monthly, combined? And how many people can have access to the books via those packages?
Poorly framed question, but only because you presume there is a monthly cost to the Legendary pack, when there is not.
My master tier is 4.60 a month. I can share my stuff with 36 people that I know of for sure, because that's what's going on right now -- in six campaigns that all of them play in.
unless there is some newly added tier I am unaware of, that's the most expensive one.
Books wise, the calculation becomes harder because I have bought them over time as circumstances allowed, and not as a bundle, and I have picked up a few odds and ends of value as well.
USD $12.10 would be the cost of the three books from the OP plus my tier of sub on a monthly basis, but only for one year.
It costs more to use Roll20, and you get less sharing (but you do get more systems, and most folks don't have a huge group of players with decades of play)
The poster said "splurged on a Legendary". I have no idea how much that costs, but that implies cash was paid. And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
And going forward, do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
Ah. Okay, currently the Legendary Bundle is $1037.43 USD, contains 50 items, including all books and adventures except the absolute most recent ones. It is purchased as a single unit, not a monthly charge. You get an additional 15% discount on top of future purchases, and if you already have purchased several items, they reduce the price of the bundle to account for what you do have. So, right now, for me, it costs $591.23.
So when they say splurged, they mean they went whole hog and spent a fortune to get all the books one can get at that time. It is actually a better deal than what I did.
I've spent a few coins, but it was over a long period, and I never bought any bundles -- I just bought the books that would be of value to me digitally when I could afford them. Note -- I didn't have to buy them. I own all of the stuff in hardcover I need.
Now,
And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month?
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Right now, I am sharing Phandelver, Basic Rules, PHB, DMG, Tasha's, Xanathar's, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation, Wayfiner's Guide to Eberron, MotM, Journey's through the Radiant Citadel, and a varied assortment of bits and pieces with my entire group. Also, when I set up a campaign, I can choose which stuff they can use and which stuff they can't when making a character -- and that includes not just their homebrew stuff, but also the homebrew stuff of other folks here.
All they have to do is create a character for the campaign or co-DM with me.
lastly...
do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
I don't think WotC has a choice in the matter, lol. 70% of Hasbro's operating profit last year came from Magic/D&D. And that represents reliance on DMs and folks who want to either become DMs themselves or who just really want to have all the cool stuff that is the reason I bought thing I will never use like SCAG.
They absolutely will seek a way to monetize the player side, though, No question. ANd personally, without much evidence, I am inclined to think that will be based in the VTT set up ad in a more rapid cycling of game licenses like BG3 and such.
I'm out of the demo for such, just on age, but also on "value" since I have no interest in Eberron or FR as settings for my games.
However, they haven't announced or even hinted to any changes -- and so anything suggesting it is equally likely to be wrong.
OK, so as I I understand it, someone, right now, can buy pretty much everything for a tad under 600 US, and then tack on 4.60 a month to share that with a ton of people. But the retail rate was probably twice that in upfront costs. I am guessing the current discount is due to the fact that the PHB, DMG, and MM are being replaced in a year.
Meanwhile, I bought my PHB, and XGTE, obviously later, for about 50 bucks each. DMG and MM are about the same. Call it 200 US for 4 books. Players only need the PHB. DM needs the rest. I play my games in person now, so have no need for the online game. But I did play online during covid, and I had no issue using hard copies even then. The rationale for forking over that kind of cash, I will not understand.
How wotc will increase revenues with 6e, yeah, that is up for speculation. But there is zero doubt that each and every user who wants access to the VTT will be paying.
A thousand, if they have none of the digital stuff, but yes.
upfront, my books on hand ran 270 bucks (I got deals) for the seven of them, but I use the digital format stuff through the app as a fast reference and in development work. Quicker, I don’t have to recall which book, and keeps play smooth because there’s no pause.
The primary purpose of the digital books is online character creation. Flat out, that is the whole deal. API for use with other VTTs (and now here), so online games are easy and more portable.
The hook there is that if you don’t have access to the books, you can only use what is available here free. So if the campaign doesn’t have Xanathar’s, then those options aren’t available on the sheet. Same for PHB, etc.
I do play online, but I don’t use any VTT, and character stuff here is empty for me because I use Sanity and that option isn’t possible here (among many other things). Literally! I am paying for the reference library, forums, and marketing posts. The rest of the features are of little interest.
however, if I were to run a campaign in FR, using the published adventures, with digital character records, battle maps, certain homebrew things, building encounters…
I could handle an entire game via this site and zoom. No physical anything — dice included. And it would be cheaper than buying physical books.
That is the target audience, and it is the largest percentage of users. Add in the Unreal Engine 3D virtual space late next year, updated to work with the new version, likely primed with a new published adventure, and you have a hard to beat VTT that investors want to see a low barrier to entry, readily monetized via cosmetics, situation that could probably be done for 40 cents more a month at my end, and 17 cents more at base end (3.50 a month, I think) for a reported quarter mill, with defections from less feature rich existing models while still retaining current licensing and gaining more control over the IP in external dev situations like BG3.
In short, more bang for the Buck seven years after planning, five years after acquisition, and effective monetization of players without sacrificing existing revenue at all. (Investor reports are good reads).
so, the “cheaper than physical” basis is a big draw. Hardback PHB is list 50 USD, digital is 30 USD. Profit is much higher on digital, so they are already improving monetization by simply creating and acquiring this site and expanding the number of VTTs who license content and API.
that is, they are already making good on that, and that’s just doing business as usual. That was why they bought DDB, lol. Buying it was the whole point — it allowed them to effectively monetize the players. Everyone cites the sky is falling breathless reporting, no one remembers that he said it about why they bought DDB, lol.
They are not going to make it harder via raising prices sky high — Netflix without ads will ALWAYS cost way more, lol. Hell, Netflix with ads will cost more. They will get it by giving folks things they want, and by setting the stuff to work the way it already does.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
@AEDorsay: I like how you often express my opinion - only better than I could, you (presumably, my apologies if I'm wrong, but presumably because you're a native speaker).
What we are in the middle of is a shift from D&D being published by RPG's experts, to D&D being published by product development and publishing experts. From a purely functional point of view (unless they screw it up completely, which is certainly a thing that happens) we're going to see a much better product a year or two from now.
From a functional point of view. It'll be slick, and streamlined, it will integrate stuff and automize stuff, and it'll be great. From a functional point of view.
It will also be an utter failure. They will either fire or mentally castrate everyone who is good at the parts of the game I like, like storytelling and world-building.
And either way I'm not paying a subscription.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
@AEDorsay: I like how you often express my opinion - only better than I could, you (presumably, my apologies if I'm wrong, but presumably because you're a native speaker).
What we are in the middle of is a shift from D&D being published by RPG's experts, to D&D being published by product development and publishing experts. From a purely functional point of view (unless they screw it up completely, which is certainly a thing that happens) we're going to see a much better product a year or two from now.
From a functional point of view. It'll be slick, and streamlined, it will integrate stuff and automize stuff, and it'll be great. From a functional point of view.
It will also be an utter failure. They will either fire or mentally castrate everyone who is good at the parts of the game I like, like storytelling and world-building.
And either way I'm not paying a subscription.
The schism is coming. There will be the video gamers who will embrace the sub model, and the traditional RPG'ers who will turn their back on this. wotc has made it clear what part of the customer base they want.
The schism is coming. There will be the video gamers who will embrace the sub model, and the traditional RPG'ers who will turn their back on this. wotc has made it clear what part of the customer base they want.
Well, yes, but I think we also need to realise we're a minority. Also, I don't think they'll turn us aside, I think our money is just fine with them - so there'll be an offering for us as well. It just won't be, like, great writing. But I'd like to point out that the vast majority of historical offerings have also been absolutely awful. In my somewhat too harsh opinion, nothing that isn't an original setting - Eberron, Dark Sun, Planescape - is utter junk.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The schism is coming. There will be the video gamers who will embrace the sub model, and the traditional RPG'ers who will turn their back on this. wotc has made it clear what part of the customer base they want.
Well, yes, but I think we also need to realise we're a minority. Also, I don't think they'll turn us aside, I think our money is just fine with them - so there'll be an offering for us as well. It just won't be, like, great writing. But I'd like to point out that the vast majority of historical offerings have also been absolutely awful. In my somewhat too harsh opinion, nothing that isn't an original setting - Eberron, Dark Sun, Planescape - is utter junk.
I will agree!
Though Planescape is suffering from a bit of the "have to work with all the other existing worlds" stuff that makes me twitch a bit. I can't even use Planescape because it is still built upon a cosmology that is bothersome.
One thing "we" tend to have in common is that we don't use the default worlds. For the most part, we have well established, good groups, and custom built worlds. And none of the VTT stuff they are doing (or anyone else is doing) is made for us.
A few other companies are trying to make places for that, but they all approach it from a programmer's POV, and so their UI and systems are overly structuralist, requiring a lot of work to even start to use them. I started to use one of them and realized it would be a decade before I could effectively create enough stuff to make it possible simply based on the speed of how long it took to get just the first six ability scores put together.
Do I expect to be able to use DDB long term? Not really. It is useful for me now, but the more they lean towards the published settings (including FR, Eberron, Dragonlance, et al) in baseline material, the less I am likely to find value in it as I keep having to kitbash systems and tools for things my group routinely does that ripple through the game as a whole.
I have more invested in then dollars than I do in now dollars (comparing my 1e/2e stuff and the cost then to the 5e stuff and the cost now). Even accounting for the length of my sub here, I haven't spent anywhere near the three grand I did on earlier editions (and if I do the inflation calcs, 5e spending will never catch up).
So I do see things as moving away from encouraging folks to create their own custom worlds -- there is ever decreasing support for it from the company, ever decreasing support for it from the legions of newer players who have never even played in a well fleshed out world from some very experienced DM.
All the VTTs tend to reinforce the use of published stuff and push back on original creations. And none of that is accidental. We are not only a Minority, we are a literally dying minority who have a higher cost per capita than a normative player, although we could be far more efficiently monetized, lol.
But in terms of online tools (and VTT is a tool), the whole thing is a good decade away from being able to support our style of work. Which is hilarious, because who is it that creates the coolest, most awesome stuff?
Folks like us. We change the way the game is played, and we always have.
A lot of folks will say "well, go out and use a different system" -- the problem is that the other systems *don't work for us* and *are not D&D*, and we want to play D&D. Just not the same way the designers create it (which is why we create new classes, new species, new rules, and more).
The DM side of the equation has been ignored for a decade. 5e is a player's game in the same sense that 1e was a DM's game. They ever put effort into supporting DM side tools, and they will be drawing us back.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The schism is coming. There will be the video gamers who will embrace the sub model, and the traditional RPG'ers who will turn their back on this. wotc has made it clear what part of the customer base they want.
Well, yes, but I think we also need to realise we're a minority. Also, I don't think they'll turn us aside, I think our money is just fine with them - so there'll be an offering for us as well. It just won't be, like, great writing. But I'd like to point out that the vast majority of historical offerings have also been absolutely awful. In my somewhat too harsh opinion, nothing that isn't an original setting - Eberron, Dark Sun, Planescape - is utter junk.
Yes, I don't buy the settings. I buy the mechanics books, and if necessary, use the settings written from decades ago. But I won't be buying 6e. wotc has made it clear that my style of play is not what they are interested in supporting.
Yes, I don't buy the settings. I buy the mechanics books, and if necessary, use the settings written from decades ago. But I won't be buying 6e. wotc has made it clear that my style of play is not what they are interested in supporting.
I mean ... granted, this is going to sound bad coming from me, but - don't be so negative =)
I think they might well publish a new setting, and it will be great, once again. But anything they republish, or any expansions or supplements to older stuff, will be absolutely useless refuse - like it always was.
Of course if they try to make a new setting, and it's pre-neutered by gender-fear and political correctness - it's going to be really, really hard for them to make anything worthwhile. And please don't construe this as negativity towards ... anyone or anything, I just like my villains to be properly villainous. And my male power fantasies to be both male and powerful. My female power fantasies for that matter too (not male, also, of course).
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yes, I don't buy the settings. I buy the mechanics books, and if necessary, use the settings written from decades ago. But I won't be buying 6e. wotc has made it clear that my style of play is not what they are interested in supporting.
I mean ... granted, this is going to sound bad coming from me, but - don't be so negative =)
I think they might well publish a new setting, and it will be great, once again. But anything they republish, or any expansions or supplements to older stuff, will be absolutely useless refuse - like it always was.
Of course if they try to make a new setting, and it's pre-neutered by gender-fear and political correctness - it's going to be really, really hard for them to make anything worthwhile. And please don't construe this as negativity towards ... anyone or anything, I just like my villains to be properly villainous. And my male power fantasies to be both male and powerful. My female power fantasies for that matter too (not male, also, of course).
I have to ask, because, well, it me.
RE: those power fantasies. You mention men's power fantasies (presumably strong and tough and stoic) and women power fantasies (presumably through a man's lens, so appropriately appreciative women and kick butt women who might be appreciative).
Would such a world also enable Trans Woman or Trans Man power fantasies and Nonbinary power fantasies?
I mean, don't get me wrong -- I do not see any existing Setting as enabling such at this time (past or present), despite the usual "oh, you can do that!" when it is very obvious that one cannot do that (because, well, authors don't understand what TW/TM/NB power fantasies are). So not seeking to start stuff.
It is just that these things are not mutually exclusive, do not interfere with each other, do not detract from each other, and so wouldn't need to be excluded for any reason other than someone being, well, afraid of gender stuff.
I confess that "gender-fear" and "political correctness" are trigger words for my work, and as I am someone whom several US states have been sticking their nose into my personal business and many nations I once visited in person have started to declare I should be killed on sight (where they didn't previously), I tend to be slightly alert to such things.
That said, yes, I am bored to tears with all the assorted published worlds. I snag a cool idea here and there, but I am personally rather over the "anachronistic pseudo-medieval super-generic fantasy world" that somehow must have the ability to let anyone play any class that's been published as if it was just some pastiche of Earth instead of a creative world separate and distinct that never had half the archetypes used and is always based on some mashup of stuff written from 1920 to 1980 that must include Tolkien-esque something somewhere.
One of the things that interested me about 5e originally was that they had updated the inspirations for it. Then I look at the list, and sighed because it was the same stuff they had always used (and that is now so ubiquitous that it has lost luster and wonder for me). If you sit down and yank out everything inspired by what was written between 1920 and 1980, you find yourself having to look in a whole new way for inspirations -- even when creating yet another kitchen sink world.
What does D&D look like without the stuff drawn from Edgar Rice Burroughs, Lin Carter, L Sprague DeCamp, Fletcher Pratt, HP Lovecraft, Lord Dunsany, Robert E Howard, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Andre Norton, Mervyn Peake, JRR Tolkien, Jack Vance, and Roger Zelazny?
Hell, most of the newest players have never read *any* of those works (and never will -- those books are old and old equals boring). To a lot of folks the answer is "it wouldn't be D&D" and in doing so they show their own lack of creativity and imagination, because they derive their entire fantasy set from those limited works. And I am not saying those works are bad -- hell, half the other stuff they mention as inspiration draws from those few sources itself, or relies on the cultural zeitgeist=ist that those works created. I am not saying they are bad at all. Hell, I've read everything myself, often more than a few times.
I am saying that if they do decide to create a new world, it needs to completely side step any of those sources. Ignore them. Tear them out at the roots. from the game. That they need to step outside of the European sociocultural folklore systems they use and stretch themselves and draw from things that are 'alien" and different and *then* smooth out bumps using a European frame of reference without getting all caught up in the weeds.
And none of it should resemble Earth. THey cite the Hundred Kingdoms of N. K. Jemison and her influence isn't even visible. Where's stuff like Alwyn Hamilton's Desert Rebel series? Or Alina Boyden's Stealing Thunder or Gifting Fire? Kate Elliot's Spirit Gate or Cold Magic? Tamora Pierce has written a ton of novels that we introduced to our kids -- barely a nod. And that's just a tiny taste of it all. Stuff chosen very specifically because you cannot recreate those settings and use D&D's core classes.
but, as I noted above, I am a minority of folks who wants more creativity, not milking the hell out of an existing, burned out, boring-to-me world, no matter how many hundreds of fan sites it has. I want *evolution* of the game.
And still keep the masculine, feminine, and nonbinary power fantasies. As well as ethnic power fantasies, and disability power fantasies, and being into that kind of thing I want to see new cultures and strange powers and I want it to be an escape from a world that is trying to kill me and those like me every single day.
And for that I would pay a lot more than 7 bucks a month.
(and for others looking on, no, I did not read any misogyny into the comment, nor other crap, because hello, nonspecific power fantasies aren't immediately suspicious. Good faith is a core principle.)
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
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This argument leaves out discounts and sales on physical books. It also ignores the fact that at some point all of this will go away and you "own" nothing. They can not take away or change what is in a physical book at will like the digital copies here.
All in all both forms have advantages and can be had at good prices now and again. Which is better is really very subjective and come down to use case for each person.
I have both physical and digital libraries and use both. I still play a couple of games with pencil and paper and books at the table only. They are fun but not many prefer to play that way, I do play more digital characters than pencil and paper characters.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
The poster said "splurged on a Legendary". I have no idea how much that costs, but that implies cash was paid. And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month? I don't buy any packages, so I have no idea what the costing is.
And going forward, do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
Master Tier allows you to share content in 5 campaigns, upto 12 players per campaign, ds theoretically up to 60 people. There are some annoying constraints on that, do it's not quite as generous as it sounds, but it is pretty good - if you have lots of players you play with, it can get quite cheap. For someone like me that only shares with his family? Not so much.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If one person in a campaign has a Master-tier subscription, then all books owned on D&DB by everyone in the campaign are shared.
And regarding the monetization thing, as has already been said they're not going to go and upend their entire business model in an attempt to correct it. Typically it just means they're going to come up with something new to try to sell to people. My guess is they'll have a lot of optional bells and whistles that can be individually purchased on the new VTT they're planning to bring out, as well as a few tiers of membership for it.
Ah. Okay, currently the Legendary Bundle is $1037.43 USD, contains 50 items, including all books and adventures except the absolute most recent ones. It is purchased as a single unit, not a monthly charge. You get an additional 15% discount on top of future purchases, and if you already have purchased several items, they reduce the price of the bundle to account for what you do have. So, right now, for me, it costs $591.23.
So when they say splurged, they mean they went whole hog and spent a fortune to get all the books one can get at that time. It is actually a better deal than what I did.
I've spent a few coins, but it was over a long period, and I never bought any bundles -- I just bought the books that would be of value to me digitally when I could afford them. Note -- I didn't have to buy them. I own all of the stuff in hardcover I need.
Now,
And are you saying that you can share the PHB, Tasha's, any and all other books with 36 people for 4.60 / month?
Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Right now, I am sharing Phandelver, Basic Rules, PHB, DMG, Tasha's, Xanathar's, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Annihilation, Wayfiner's Guide to Eberron, MotM, Journey's through the Radiant Citadel, and a varied assortment of bits and pieces with my entire group. Also, when I set up a campaign, I can choose which stuff they can use and which stuff they can't when making a character -- and that includes not just their homebrew stuff, but also the homebrew stuff of other folks here.
All they have to do is create a character for the campaign or co-DM with me.
lastly...
do you truly believe that wotc is not going to correct what their leadership perceives as "under-monetization"?
I don't think WotC has a choice in the matter, lol. 70% of Hasbro's operating profit last year came from Magic/D&D. And that represents reliance on DMs and folks who want to either become DMs themselves or who just really want to have all the cool stuff that is the reason I bought thing I will never use like SCAG.
They absolutely will seek a way to monetize the player side, though, No question. ANd personally, without much evidence, I am inclined to think that will be based in the VTT set up ad in a more rapid cycling of game licenses like BG3 and such.
I'm out of the demo for such, just on age, but also on "value" since I have no interest in Eberron or FR as settings for my games.
However, they haven't announced or even hinted to any changes -- and so anything suggesting it is equally likely to be wrong.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
OK, so as I I understand it, someone, right now, can buy pretty much everything for a tad under 600 US, and then tack on 4.60 a month to share that with a ton of people. But the retail rate was probably twice that in upfront costs. I am guessing the current discount is due to the fact that the PHB, DMG, and MM are being replaced in a year.
Meanwhile, I bought my PHB, and XGTE, obviously later, for about 50 bucks each. DMG and MM are about the same. Call it 200 US for 4 books. Players only need the PHB. DM needs the rest. I play my games in person now, so have no need for the online game. But I did play online during covid, and I had no issue using hard copies even then. The rationale for forking over that kind of cash, I will not understand.
How wotc will increase revenues with 6e, yeah, that is up for speculation. But there is zero doubt that each and every user who wants access to the VTT will be paying.
Trying to pay-gate their VTT that aggressively doesn't seem like a good idea. They're the late-comers to the VTT party, demanding cash at the door is not gonna do them any favors unless they've got something absolutely revolutionary. More likely the absolute basic level is free, with all the cosmetics and conveniences paygated to draw out the money.
A thousand, if they have none of the digital stuff, but yes.
upfront, my books on hand ran 270 bucks (I got deals) for the seven of them, but I use the digital format stuff through the app as a fast reference and in development work. Quicker, I don’t have to recall which book, and keeps play smooth because there’s no pause.
The primary purpose of the digital books is online character creation. Flat out, that is the whole deal. API for use with other VTTs (and now here), so online games are easy and more portable.
The hook there is that if you don’t have access to the books, you can only use what is available here free. So if the campaign doesn’t have Xanathar’s, then those options aren’t available on the sheet. Same for PHB, etc.
I do play online, but I don’t use any VTT, and character stuff here is empty for me because I use Sanity and that option isn’t possible here (among many other things). Literally! I am paying for the reference library, forums, and marketing posts. The rest of the features are of little interest.
however, if I were to run a campaign in FR, using the published adventures, with digital character records, battle maps, certain homebrew things, building encounters…
I could handle an entire game via this site and zoom. No physical anything — dice included. And it would be cheaper than buying physical books.
That is the target audience, and it is the largest percentage of users. Add in the Unreal Engine 3D virtual space late next year, updated to work with the new version, likely primed with a new published adventure, and you have a hard to beat VTT that investors want to see a low barrier to entry, readily monetized via cosmetics, situation that could probably be done for 40 cents more a month at my end, and 17 cents more at base end (3.50 a month, I think) for a reported quarter mill, with defections from less feature rich existing models while still retaining current licensing and gaining more control over the IP in external dev situations like BG3.
In short, more bang for the Buck seven years after planning, five years after acquisition, and effective monetization of players without sacrificing existing revenue at all. (Investor reports are good reads).
so, the “cheaper than physical” basis is a big draw. Hardback PHB is list 50 USD, digital is 30 USD. Profit is much higher on digital, so they are already improving monetization by simply creating and acquiring this site and expanding the number of VTTs who license content and API.
that is, they are already making good on that, and that’s just doing business as usual. That was why they bought DDB, lol. Buying it was the whole point — it allowed them to effectively monetize the players. Everyone cites the sky is falling breathless reporting, no one remembers that he said it about why they bought DDB, lol.
They are not going to make it harder via raising prices sky high — Netflix without ads will ALWAYS cost way more, lol. Hell, Netflix with ads will cost more. They will get it by giving folks things they want, and by setting the stuff to work the way it already does.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
@AEDorsay: I like how you often express my opinion - only better than I could, you (presumably, my apologies if I'm wrong, but presumably because you're a native speaker).
What we are in the middle of is a shift from D&D being published by RPG's experts, to D&D being published by product development and publishing experts. From a purely functional point of view (unless they screw it up completely, which is certainly a thing that happens) we're going to see a much better product a year or two from now.
From a functional point of view. It'll be slick, and streamlined, it will integrate stuff and automize stuff, and it'll be great. From a functional point of view.
It will also be an utter failure. They will either fire or mentally castrate everyone who is good at the parts of the game I like, like storytelling and world-building.
And either way I'm not paying a subscription.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I would buy the book in real life and expect that I only need to buy the source material once.
The schism is coming. There will be the video gamers who will embrace the sub model, and the traditional RPG'ers who will turn their back on this. wotc has made it clear what part of the customer base they want.
Well, yes, but I think we also need to realise we're a minority. Also, I don't think they'll turn us aside, I think our money is just fine with them - so there'll be an offering for us as well. It just won't be, like, great writing. But I'd like to point out that the vast majority of historical offerings have also been absolutely awful. In my somewhat too harsh opinion, nothing that isn't an original setting - Eberron, Dark Sun, Planescape - is utter junk.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I will agree!
Though Planescape is suffering from a bit of the "have to work with all the other existing worlds" stuff that makes me twitch a bit. I can't even use Planescape because it is still built upon a cosmology that is bothersome.
One thing "we" tend to have in common is that we don't use the default worlds. For the most part, we have well established, good groups, and custom built worlds. And none of the VTT stuff they are doing (or anyone else is doing) is made for us.
A few other companies are trying to make places for that, but they all approach it from a programmer's POV, and so their UI and systems are overly structuralist, requiring a lot of work to even start to use them. I started to use one of them and realized it would be a decade before I could effectively create enough stuff to make it possible simply based on the speed of how long it took to get just the first six ability scores put together.
Do I expect to be able to use DDB long term? Not really. It is useful for me now, but the more they lean towards the published settings (including FR, Eberron, Dragonlance, et al) in baseline material, the less I am likely to find value in it as I keep having to kitbash systems and tools for things my group routinely does that ripple through the game as a whole.
I have more invested in then dollars than I do in now dollars (comparing my 1e/2e stuff and the cost then to the 5e stuff and the cost now). Even accounting for the length of my sub here, I haven't spent anywhere near the three grand I did on earlier editions (and if I do the inflation calcs, 5e spending will never catch up).
So I do see things as moving away from encouraging folks to create their own custom worlds -- there is ever decreasing support for it from the company, ever decreasing support for it from the legions of newer players who have never even played in a well fleshed out world from some very experienced DM.
All the VTTs tend to reinforce the use of published stuff and push back on original creations. And none of that is accidental. We are not only a Minority, we are a literally dying minority who have a higher cost per capita than a normative player, although we could be far more efficiently monetized, lol.
But in terms of online tools (and VTT is a tool), the whole thing is a good decade away from being able to support our style of work. Which is hilarious, because who is it that creates the coolest, most awesome stuff?
Folks like us. We change the way the game is played, and we always have.
A lot of folks will say "well, go out and use a different system" -- the problem is that the other systems *don't work for us* and *are not D&D*, and we want to play D&D. Just not the same way the designers create it (which is why we create new classes, new species, new rules, and more).
The DM side of the equation has been ignored for a decade. 5e is a player's game in the same sense that 1e was a DM's game. They ever put effort into supporting DM side tools, and they will be drawing us back.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Yes, I don't buy the settings. I buy the mechanics books, and if necessary, use the settings written from decades ago. But I won't be buying 6e. wotc has made it clear that my style of play is not what they are interested in supporting.
I mean ... granted, this is going to sound bad coming from me, but - don't be so negative =)
I think they might well publish a new setting, and it will be great, once again. But anything they republish, or any expansions or supplements to older stuff, will be absolutely useless refuse - like it always was.
Of course if they try to make a new setting, and it's pre-neutered by gender-fear and political correctness - it's going to be really, really hard for them to make anything worthwhile. And please don't construe this as negativity towards ... anyone or anything, I just like my villains to be properly villainous. And my male power fantasies to be both male and powerful. My female power fantasies for that matter too (not male, also, of course).
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I have to ask, because, well, it me.
RE: those power fantasies. You mention men's power fantasies (presumably strong and tough and stoic) and women power fantasies (presumably through a man's lens, so appropriately appreciative women and kick butt women who might be appreciative).
Would such a world also enable Trans Woman or Trans Man power fantasies and Nonbinary power fantasies?
I mean, don't get me wrong -- I do not see any existing Setting as enabling such at this time (past or present), despite the usual "oh, you can do that!" when it is very obvious that one cannot do that (because, well, authors don't understand what TW/TM/NB power fantasies are). So not seeking to start stuff.
It is just that these things are not mutually exclusive, do not interfere with each other, do not detract from each other, and so wouldn't need to be excluded for any reason other than someone being, well, afraid of gender stuff.
I confess that "gender-fear" and "political correctness" are trigger words for my work, and as I am someone whom several US states have been sticking their nose into my personal business and many nations I once visited in person have started to declare I should be killed on sight (where they didn't previously), I tend to be slightly alert to such things.
That said, yes, I am bored to tears with all the assorted published worlds. I snag a cool idea here and there, but I am personally rather over the "anachronistic pseudo-medieval super-generic fantasy world" that somehow must have the ability to let anyone play any class that's been published as if it was just some pastiche of Earth instead of a creative world separate and distinct that never had half the archetypes used and is always based on some mashup of stuff written from 1920 to 1980 that must include Tolkien-esque something somewhere.
One of the things that interested me about 5e originally was that they had updated the inspirations for it. Then I look at the list, and sighed because it was the same stuff they had always used (and that is now so ubiquitous that it has lost luster and wonder for me). If you sit down and yank out everything inspired by what was written between 1920 and 1980, you find yourself having to look in a whole new way for inspirations -- even when creating yet another kitchen sink world.
What does D&D look like without the stuff drawn from Edgar Rice Burroughs, Lin Carter, L Sprague DeCamp, Fletcher Pratt, HP Lovecraft, Lord Dunsany, Robert E Howard, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Andre Norton, Mervyn Peake, JRR Tolkien, Jack Vance, and Roger Zelazny?
Hell, most of the newest players have never read *any* of those works (and never will -- those books are old and old equals boring). To a lot of folks the answer is "it wouldn't be D&D" and in doing so they show their own lack of creativity and imagination, because they derive their entire fantasy set from those limited works. And I am not saying those works are bad -- hell, half the other stuff they mention as inspiration draws from those few sources itself, or relies on the cultural zeitgeist=ist that those works created. I am not saying they are bad at all. Hell, I've read everything myself, often more than a few times.
I am saying that if they do decide to create a new world, it needs to completely side step any of those sources. Ignore them. Tear them out at the roots. from the game. That they need to step outside of the European sociocultural folklore systems they use and stretch themselves and draw from things that are 'alien" and different and *then* smooth out bumps using a European frame of reference without getting all caught up in the weeds.
And none of it should resemble Earth. THey cite the Hundred Kingdoms of N. K. Jemison and her influence isn't even visible. Where's stuff like Alwyn Hamilton's Desert Rebel series? Or Alina Boyden's Stealing Thunder or Gifting Fire? Kate Elliot's Spirit Gate or Cold Magic? Tamora Pierce has written a ton of novels that we introduced to our kids -- barely a nod. And that's just a tiny taste of it all. Stuff chosen very specifically because you cannot recreate those settings and use D&D's core classes.
but, as I noted above, I am a minority of folks who wants more creativity, not milking the hell out of an existing, burned out, boring-to-me world, no matter how many hundreds of fan sites it has. I want *evolution* of the game.
And still keep the masculine, feminine, and nonbinary power fantasies. As well as ethnic power fantasies, and disability power fantasies, and being into that kind of thing I want to see new cultures and strange powers and I want it to be an escape from a world that is trying to kill me and those like me every single day.
And for that I would pay a lot more than 7 bucks a month.
(and for others looking on, no, I did not read any misogyny into the comment, nor other crap, because hello, nonspecific power fantasies aren't immediately suspicious. Good faith is a core principle.)
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
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An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds