I've had this problem since the 2nd Ed. Planescape setting, because it has exactly the same confusion I see in the new 5th edition setting book. Namely:
"Sigil floats above the apex of the Spire, barely visible from the ground, constructed on the inside of a massive stone torus."
A torus is a donut shape. If Sigil is inside a donut, then effectively it is closed to the outside and this description seems consistent: "Built within a great ring, the city curves before and behind observers, as if they stood in a bowl or valley, stretching upward and disappearing into an industrial haze. On a clear day, a creature that looks upward sees the other side of the city, curving far overhead."
But then: "Sigil is built to the edges of the ring, forming a wall of structures along its border. Anyone who climbs atop this outer wall of buildings can look out over the edge into an empty sky."
The interior of a torus doesn't have edges, so this doesn't make sense in the context of the previous descriptions. The included poster map doesn't really help and seems to be intentionally confusing (fair, the guide makes it clear the map doesn't accurately convey distance or size).
Perhaps the intention is that the torus has a strip taken out of it? (E.g. the inner part of the torus doesn't quite meet up and leaves a gap)? Any insight into what I'm missing here would be helpful...
If I recall the ancient texts and illustrations (aka prior editions) correctly, yes; there usually does appear to be a "gap" on the inside edge of the Sigil ring. Might not be given the best of descriptions in this iteration? I don't know: I've not bought/read this one yet.
This picture from the 2nd Ed always confused me, but now that I'm typing this out I finally get it. Rathkryn, you definitely seem to be correct. Very strange they can't just state this plainly in the text. Thanks everyone.
Sigil is basically a city-sized fantasy version of Larry Niven's Ringworld, if that helps with the visualization.
That's the thing - the intent for Sigil appears to be quite different from how Ringworld is normally drawn, which is more of a "Halo" style ring that only curves in one direction (as opposed to the interior of a torus).
So, I will go a tiny bit deeper, lol, and point out that it is based on the inspiration for Ringworld, lol.
Which does have a partially enclosed inner segment, in order to afford for "night" sections, since it is intended to be built at an angle that also would provide for seasons.
The whitepaper was incredibly boring (required for one of my classes back in the 90's), and so mathy it reads like one of my posts, but yes, it is a toroid.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
In my interpretation, Sigil is no different from all other planes of existance. Yes, it's a donut. It's also effectively infinite. It looks like you can start walking widdershins, and soon enough you'll be back where you started - but you never, ever will. Undersigil is an endless warren of tunnels, and Sigil itself is an endless cityscape.
But it's ..... fractal. It's hard to explain stuff that doesn't make sense. You can walk from one ward to another - but you also cannot. So .. High Cromlech Avenue connects the Upper Ward to the Lady's Ward. But if you take another road that goes in the same direction, it may well take you somewhere else entirely.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It can do, because a torus doesn't have to be donut shaped, although that's what most people imagine:
. It's the shape formed by rotating any closed curve about a center of rotation outside of that curve, it's just that a circle is the most common curve used.
torus /ˈtɔːrəs/ noun
GEOMETRY
a surface or solid formed by rotating a closed curve, especially a circle, about a line which lies in the same plane but does not intersect it (e.g. like a ring doughnut).
So the closed curve that forms the toroidal shape of Sigil could be a quadrilateral (giving a flat ring shape) like this
or more likely a semicircle (a D-shape) like this
All of these shapes are toroids, it's just that the circular rotation is the most commonly known one.
This is actually confirmed by this artwork from the Dungeon Master's Guide; The Outlands and Sigil
It’s better to think of it like the inside of a tire - which is exactly how it was initially described:
If a DM's got to describe the place with words, the closest prime-material analogy is an auto tire. Imagine a tire - no hubcap or wheel rim - lying on its side. Sigil would be built on the inside of the tire. All the streets and buildings would fill the curved interior. Meanwhile, on the outside there's nothing, see?
One thing this means for describing the place is that, no matter where a cutter stands, if he looks up he's going to see buildings overhead. Most of the time a basher's looking across the center of the ring, so he'll see a broad panorama of the city in the distance (unless, of course, it's obscured by smoke, smog, fog, or rain).
I think the ‘torus’ label came later, along with their equally incorrect use of ‘doughnut’ as well. But it is a “torus with a gap”. It doesn’t help that when using a single word to describe the shape rather than a couple paragraphs, they started incorrectly using ‘torus’ likely because it sounds cooler than ‘tire’ (and they either didn’t correctly understand what a torus was or didn’t care, this was about the same time as the infamous ‘dawizard’ error, so it’s not like they weren’t making sloppy mistakes). Plus the artwork has been very inconsistent as well. But whenever they spend more than a single word to describe it in text, it is always consistently described as the shape of the inside of a tire taken off of a wheel - curving around in a big loop, plus the sides curving up somewhat, and an opening to be able to look across and see the other side of the city across the Spire (on a clear day).
In 3.5 Planar Handbook it was a torus, like a donut. But in 2nd it was also told some zones of Sigil were detaches (and lost in the Astra Sea). I guess we could agree Sigil can be reshaped by the will of "Doña Dolores" ( = the Lady of Pain).
If now it is a ring, this means airports for no-magic flying vehicles (for example steam-motor zeppelin) or flying mounts is possible. But if there is a serious menace of an air attack, then the Lady of Pain could order the ring shape to becomes a closed torus again.
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I've had this problem since the 2nd Ed. Planescape setting, because it has exactly the same confusion I see in the new 5th edition setting book. Namely:
"Sigil floats above the apex of the Spire, barely visible from the ground, constructed on the inside of a massive stone torus."
A torus is a donut shape. If Sigil is inside a donut, then effectively it is closed to the outside and this description seems consistent:
"Built within a great ring, the city curves before and behind observers, as if they stood in a bowl or valley, stretching upward and disappearing into an industrial haze. On a clear day, a creature that looks upward sees the other side of the city, curving far overhead."
But then:
"Sigil is built to the edges of the ring, forming a wall of structures along its border. Anyone who climbs atop this outer wall of buildings can look out over the edge into an empty sky."
The interior of a torus doesn't have edges, so this doesn't make sense in the context of the previous descriptions. The included poster map doesn't really help and seems to be intentionally confusing (fair, the guide makes it clear the map doesn't accurately convey distance or size).
Perhaps the intention is that the torus has a strip taken out of it? (E.g. the inner part of the torus doesn't quite meet up and leaves a gap)? Any insight into what I'm missing here would be helpful...
If I recall the ancient texts and illustrations (aka prior editions) correctly, yes; there usually does appear to be a "gap" on the inside edge of the Sigil ring. Might not be given the best of descriptions in this iteration? I don't know: I've not bought/read this one yet.
Sigil is basically a city-sized fantasy version of Larry Niven's Ringworld, if that helps with the visualization.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
After a quick search for Sigil D&D City Artwork, the torus definitely has edges around the top and bottom of the "doughnut hole".
This picture from the 2nd Ed always confused me, but now that I'm typing this out I finally get it. Rathkryn, you definitely seem to be correct. Very strange they can't just state this plainly in the text. Thanks everyone.
That's the thing - the intent for Sigil appears to be quite different from how Ringworld is normally drawn, which is more of a "Halo" style ring that only curves in one direction (as opposed to the interior of a torus).
So, I will go a tiny bit deeper, lol, and point out that it is based on the inspiration for Ringworld, lol.
Which does have a partially enclosed inner segment, in order to afford for "night" sections, since it is intended to be built at an angle that also would provide for seasons.
The whitepaper was incredibly boring (required for one of my classes back in the 90's), and so mathy it reads like one of my posts, but yes, it is a toroid.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
In my interpretation, Sigil is no different from all other planes of existance. Yes, it's a donut. It's also effectively infinite. It looks like you can start walking widdershins, and soon enough you'll be back where you started - but you never, ever will. Undersigil is an endless warren of tunnels, and Sigil itself is an endless cityscape.
But it's ..... fractal. It's hard to explain stuff that doesn't make sense. You can walk from one ward to another - but you also cannot. So .. High Cromlech Avenue connects the Upper Ward to the Lady's Ward. But if you take another road that goes in the same direction, it may well take you somewhere else entirely.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It can do, because a torus doesn't have to be donut shaped, although that's what most people imagine:
. It's the shape formed by rotating any closed curve about a center of rotation outside of that curve, it's just that a circle is the most common curve used.
So the closed curve that forms the toroidal shape of Sigil could be a quadrilateral (giving a flat ring shape) like this
or more likely a semicircle (a D-shape) like this
All of these shapes are toroids, it's just that the circular rotation is the most commonly known one.
This is actually confirmed by this artwork from the Dungeon Master's Guide; The Outlands and Sigil
As well as other art:
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It’s better to think of it like the inside of a tire - which is exactly how it was initially described:
I think the ‘torus’ label came later, along with their equally incorrect use of ‘doughnut’ as well. But it is a “torus with a gap”. It doesn’t help that when using a single word to describe the shape rather than a couple paragraphs, they started incorrectly using ‘torus’ likely because it sounds cooler than ‘tire’ (and they either didn’t correctly understand what a torus was or didn’t care, this was about the same time as the infamous ‘dawizard’ error, so it’s not like they weren’t making sloppy mistakes). Plus the artwork has been very inconsistent as well. But whenever they spend more than a single word to describe it in text, it is always consistently described as the shape of the inside of a tire taken off of a wheel - curving around in a big loop, plus the sides curving up somewhat, and an opening to be able to look across and see the other side of the city across the Spire (on a clear day).
In 3.5 Planar Handbook it was a torus, like a donut. But in 2nd it was also told some zones of Sigil were detaches (and lost in the Astra Sea). I guess we could agree Sigil can be reshaped by the will of "Doña Dolores" ( = the Lady of Pain).
If now it is a ring, this means airports for no-magic flying vehicles (for example steam-motor zeppelin) or flying mounts is possible. But if there is a serious menace of an air attack, then the Lady of Pain could order the ring shape to becomes a closed torus again.