And this being a higher level campaign, the DM should, by now, have a good idea of what the party is capable of. If they do not, then they are going to have real trouble balancing an encounter even for the full strength party.
Point taken. They'll be fine, best to double the budget.
I changed my table rules to; Short rest, all abilities features items ect per raw. No hp return. You’re not healing a broken arm or a knife to the liver in 4 hrs under a tree.
Long rest, all abilities features items ect per raw. Hit dice per short rest rules. Hit dice are recovered equal to your proficiency bonus every long rest.
Healing; out of combat healing, spells, potions, skills etc are at max hd for the item. in combat rolled.
this does not solve everything but makes hp management better.
Not perfect at all, but simple change.
I like the idea of a spell recovery system, need to think of something simple to use. Maybe HD can be used to recover spell slots or hp? I like this idea.
That and you spent all your time tracking which features you had left and when to use them - not really rollplaying. It was interesting but a lot more like many of the computer games with “cool down “ times for various features. Playable but annoying.
To me, the biggest issue isn't who is better at dealing damage at high levels, everybody can do that in their own way that best suits the dictates of their own personal table space. My issue is GETTING to higher level. Sure a Wizard has some amazing spells and incredible utility, but at low levels can be one shot so easily and accidentally (just lost a 4th level Wizard I was having a lot of fun with last week. Took so much damage in one aoe burst that there wasn't even a chance at a death save. The DM lets the dice talk, and it was something our group was able to easily handle, just wrong place and big number...). I've had lots of fun with full casters and full martial. Lots of fun... Lots of flavor... Lots of roleplay potential. Mostly just have fun and try to survive long enough for the glory days!
I feel if we're talking about this in a more broad sense, and not creating scenarios where Martials have +3 Flame Tongues, the gap between them past the first 4-5 levels is quite large. At something like 15th level, Wizards can cast a bunch of ritual spells without preparation, have very powerful concentration and instantaneous damage effects, ways to seal off or imprison enemies, and render them unconscious, and buff their teammates with flight and speed buffs. Warlocks have Pact Weapons and Familiars that give them resistances and benefits, and they can cast certain spells constantly. Sorcerers can twin and empower incredibly high damaging spells, completely eclipsing Martials in damage output, and Druids can do exceptional recon and crowd control. This isn't even taking into account the Bard and Cleric, but that's a whole other can of worms. Martials at levels like this can just smack an enemy around a lot, occasionally hit them twice as many times if you're a Fighter, and it ends there. They get eclipsed in the thing their meant to be good at, which is damage, by classes like the Wizard and Sorcerer by a pretty wide margin, and the only thing they beat them in is tanking ability, but even then Spellcasters have spells to make them very comparable to them, even potentially being more of tanks in the Cleric's case. While Martials can still be helpful, the gap between Casters and Martials is giant, at least in my opinion.
Wizards have all those options, but about half of them are mutually exclusive with each other; concentration is a hard cap on buffing potential, and pretty much all control and a fair number of damage options use it as well. Plus for enemies you really want to slap the control effects on, you’re gonna starting hitting Magic Resistance, condition immunity, double digit saves, and Legendary Resistances. And, as I have previously noted, their nova potential burns out in a few rounds. At 20th they have 6 slots between 6 and 9 and absolutely no way to recover them that I know of. As for rituals, there’s a few bits of Divination that provide ambiguous and narrow answers essentially just once per LR, making a pre designated 10 pound object appear in your hand at 1000 gp a pop, and a smattering of communication or traversal options. Not exactly the stuff that turns the tides of an epic conflict. Yes, the Wizard can nuke your one random encounter per day on the road with no trouble, but assuming the DM designs the actual substantial parts of the adventure to be appropriate to your party, the Wizard is going to have to budget how many tricks they pull out of the hat at any one point in the day.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Point taken. They'll be fine, best to double the budget.
If I was going to fix it I would assign martials resources in the same way spellcaster have resources.
For example, level 3 Sorcerer has 2 2nd level spell slots, one such spell is scorching ray, which is 3 2d6 ranged attacks.
Thus I would give fighters 2 uses of a feature which allows them to make 3 2d8 melee attacks or something along those lines.
Just an idea, would like to hear notes.
As I understand it, that's more or less what they tried in 4e, and it wasn't well received.
Long vs short.
I changed my table rules to;
Short rest, all abilities features items ect per raw. No hp return. You’re not healing a broken arm or a knife to the liver in 4 hrs under a tree.
Long rest, all abilities features items ect per raw. Hit dice per short rest rules. Hit dice are recovered equal to your proficiency bonus every long rest.
Healing; out of combat healing, spells, potions, skills etc are at max hd for the item. in combat rolled.
this does not solve everything but makes hp management better.
Not perfect at all, but simple change.
I like the idea of a spell recovery system, need to think of something simple to use. Maybe HD can be used to recover spell slots or hp? I like this idea.
Oh? What was the issue?
Basically the fact that every class- or possibly "role", I know they did something for that in 4e- performed about the same.
That and you spent all your time tracking which features you had left and when to use them - not really rollplaying. It was interesting but a lot more like many of the computer games with “cool down “ times for various features. Playable but annoying.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
To me, the biggest issue isn't who is better at dealing damage at high levels, everybody can do that in their own way that best suits the dictates of their own personal table space. My issue is GETTING to higher level. Sure a Wizard has some amazing spells and incredible utility, but at low levels can be one shot so easily and accidentally (just lost a 4th level Wizard I was having a lot of fun with last week. Took so much damage in one aoe burst that there wasn't even a chance at a death save. The DM lets the dice talk, and it was something our group was able to easily handle, just wrong place and big number...). I've had lots of fun with full casters and full martial. Lots of fun... Lots of flavor... Lots of roleplay potential. Mostly just have fun and try to survive long enough for the glory days!
I feel if we're talking about this in a more broad sense, and not creating scenarios where Martials have +3 Flame Tongues, the gap between them past the first 4-5 levels is quite large. At something like 15th level, Wizards can cast a bunch of ritual spells without preparation, have very powerful concentration and instantaneous damage effects, ways to seal off or imprison enemies, and render them unconscious, and buff their teammates with flight and speed buffs. Warlocks have Pact Weapons and Familiars that give them resistances and benefits, and they can cast certain spells constantly. Sorcerers can twin and empower incredibly high damaging spells, completely eclipsing Martials in damage output, and Druids can do exceptional recon and crowd control. This isn't even taking into account the Bard and Cleric, but that's a whole other can of worms. Martials at levels like this can just smack an enemy around a lot, occasionally hit them twice as many times if you're a Fighter, and it ends there. They get eclipsed in the thing their meant to be good at, which is damage, by classes like the Wizard and Sorcerer by a pretty wide margin, and the only thing they beat them in is tanking ability, but even then Spellcasters have spells to make them very comparable to them, even potentially being more of tanks in the Cleric's case. While Martials can still be helpful, the gap between Casters and Martials is giant, at least in my opinion.
Wizards have all those options, but about half of them are mutually exclusive with each other; concentration is a hard cap on buffing potential, and pretty much all control and a fair number of damage options use it as well. Plus for enemies you really want to slap the control effects on, you’re gonna starting hitting Magic Resistance, condition immunity, double digit saves, and Legendary Resistances. And, as I have previously noted, their nova potential burns out in a few rounds. At 20th they have 6 slots between 6 and 9 and absolutely no way to recover them that I know of. As for rituals, there’s a few bits of Divination that provide ambiguous and narrow answers essentially just once per LR, making a pre designated 10 pound object appear in your hand at 1000 gp a pop, and a smattering of communication or traversal options. Not exactly the stuff that turns the tides of an epic conflict. Yes, the Wizard can nuke your one random encounter per day on the road with no trouble, but assuming the DM designs the actual substantial parts of the adventure to be appropriate to your party, the Wizard is going to have to budget how many tricks they pull out of the hat at any one point in the day.