Oh yes, guaranteed damage on every attack or the opportunity to hit a second creature with an attack, they’re practically punishing you with those two.
Yes I'm late to the party, but lets not forget the Weapon Mastery of most 2H weapons. Cleave and Graze are pretty awful.
Um.. cleave is awful? Graze doesn't scale very well (high level characters don't miss very often), but cleave is excellent (remember, cleave may not add your ability score modifier, but it adds all your other damage bonuses, so your level 17 paladin with a holy avenger greatsword and great weapon mastery is cleaving for 2d6+1d8+9 [20] (+2d10 vs fiends and undead)).
Hi all, please correct me if I am wrong, but I personally find GWF AMAZING. My level 4 Fighter/Battler Master has amazing DPR. Let's have a look, shall we. This is how I try to play my first, and with little bit of luck and co-operation with the rest of the party, and every other round.
1. I declare "Lounging attack" and will use Dash as Bonus action, to create a straight running path towards my target.
2. CHARGE!!! Let the fun begin - I roll following dices: "When you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon that you are holding with two hands, you can treat any 1 or 2 on a damage die as a 3"
Rolling Damage:
Maul Attack 2d6 = Dmg Min 3+3, Max 6+6. = 8 Average
Lunging Attack Superiority die 1d8 = Dmg Min 3 max 8 = 4,875 Average
Charger Attack (Feat Charger) = 1d8 Dmg Min 3 max 8 = 4,875 Average
Maul mastery - Topple - "cherry on top", to make my enemy Prone, so I can run away (Disadvantage on opportunity), with rest of my movement to get ready for next round.
All together on average I should do 18 Dmg per attack on level 4. Min 12dmg ( 4 times 3dmg as minimum)
I think part of the issue is that you are not calculating the averages correctly. You are treating all the possible results on an individual die as equally likely. This would be true when rolling a die normally, but when the rule is telling you that a 1 or a 2 on the die counts as a 3, a result of 3 is much more likely than any of the other possible results.
The actual average of a 2d6 roll under these conditions is 8. Since the average of a normal 2d6 roll is 7, the feat is only providing you a +1 increase to average damage. This is why people complain about it; many people don't think this is worth spending a fighting style on.
Likewise, the actual average of 1d8 under these conditions is 4.875. This is technically better than the normal average on a d8 (which is 4.5) but barely noticeable in practice.
Hi all, please correct me if I am wrong, but I personally find GWF AMAZING.
Maul Attack 2d6 = Dmg Min 3+3, Max 6+6. = 9 Average
Lunging Attack Superiority die 1d8 = Dmg Min 3 max 8 = 5,5 Average
Charger Attack (Feat Charger) = 1d8 Dmg Min 3 max 8 = 5,5 Average
Problem 1: that's not how averaging works. To get the average of 1d6, you sum up possible results (1+2+3+4+5+6=21) and divide by the number of possible results (6). This gives you 21/6 or 3.5. With GWF, that becomes (3+3+3+4+5+6)/6 or 24/6 or 4. Doubled for 2d6, 8.
Problem 2: GWF doesn't apply to superiority dice or dice from Charger
That said, your fighter may well be amazing, but that's because fighters in general and battle masters in particular are amazing in tier 1.
Thanks for correcting my math. I was thinking about the math, later that day. I did forget the fact, that now I have 3 potential outcomes with 3 DMG as result of a roll. Agree the math is weaker than anticipated. HUPS.
To your second point. I do not agree with your statement that "GWF doesn't apply to Superiority die or dice from Charger".
Actually not sure the GWF damage adjustment would apply to the damage done by many spells, whose casting would be being added to the weapon's attack, since the spell is doing the damage not the weapon, and is probably a damage type different than the weapon's damage type. So in the example with "True Strike" if you're using it to do "Radiant" damage I wouldn't think it would apply, but if you're using it to simply add to the slashing or bludgeoning damage implying the spell simply gave you insight as to where to strike your opponent more effectively, I could see the argument being made that GWF could apply. I do think it would add with say a Battle Master, superiority die, being added as damage, since the damage done is inherently the same as the weapon's damage type in relation to the fighter simply applying an improved/enhanced technique of using the weapon, or some other similar character feat/feature, like a multiclass fighter/thief who has GWF using it with their sneak attack damage, or as mentioned above a multiclass fighter/barbarian who has the GWF fighting style from their fighter side, then applying it to their brutal strike bonus damage.
Actually not sure the GWF damage adjustment would apply to the damage done by many spells, whose casting would be being added to the weapon's attack, since the spell is doing the damage not the weapon, and is probably a damage type different than the weapon's damage type. So in the example with "True Strike" if you're using it to do "Radiant" damage I wouldn't think it would apply, but if you're using it to simply add to the slashing or bludgeoning damage implying the spell simply gave you insight as to where to strike your opponent more effectively, I could see the argument being made that GWF could apply. I do think it would add with say a Battle Master, superiority die, being added as damage, since the damage done is inherently the same as the weapon's damage type in relation to the fighter simply applying an improved/enhanced technique of using the weapon, or some other similar character feat/feature, like a multiclass fighter/thief who has GWF using it with their sneak attack damage, or as mentioned above a multiclass fighter/barbarian who has the GWF fighting style from their fighter side, then applying it to their brutal strike bonus damage.
Great Weapon Fighting can apply to attacks made with True Strike as long as an appropriate weapon is being used. There is nothing in the rules saying that it's different based on the chosen damage type. The same is true of Battle Master maneuvers, again as long as the attack is made with a melee weapon used in two hands. There is nothing different about these two situations as far as Great Weapon Fighting is concerned.
Great Weapon Fighting mostly can't be used with Sneak Attack, because Great Weapon Fighting only applies to two-handed or versatile melee weapons, and Sneak Attack only applies to ranged weapons or finesse melee weapons. There are no standard weapons in the Player's Handbook that meet both sets of criteria, so there's usually no way to use both abilities at the same time.
One exception to this is the magic weapon Sun Blade, which (unusually for longswords) has both the finesse and versatile properties. If used in two hands, an attack with this weapon could potentially benefit from both abilities.
It only works when you can add dice of damage, so surprisingly is not for fighters. In this case having defense, blind fighting or unarmed style (which can be lifesaving) I’d never never take into account to get GWF. I would get archery instead even for mainly melee fighters, to compensate a lower Dex when have to use range weapons.
I mean, it’s an average of 1 extra dpr on the weapons that already have the highest average output, get two of the best masteries for improving the dpr, and a feat that gives a damage bonus that scales as you level to every hit. If they gave it a boost that number crunchers actually considered good on its own, people would be complaining that great weapons in general are too OP.
I mean, it’s an average of 1 extra dpr on the weapons that already have the highest average output, get two of the best masteries for improving the dpr, and a feat that gives a damage bonus that scales as you level to every hit. If they gave it a boost that number crunchers actually considered good on its own, people would be complaining that great weapons in general are too OP.
Well, the usual solution is to take a different mastery (defense or blind fighting are solid choices).
I often think, in conversations like this, people overlook the fun factor. It’s a game for having fun, not a math problem to be solved. And when you roll and you get a 1 or 2, but get to say “but for me, that’s a 3.” It’s fun. It feels good. It’s a little boost and makes your character feel stronger, and let the player have a little smile. If it’s more fun than other styles it going to come down to personal preference, of course. But relying solely on math to judge a feature is missing something.
I often think, in conversations like this, people overlook the fun factor. It’s a game for having fun, not a math problem to be solved. And when you roll and you get a 1 or 2, but get to say “but for me, that’s a 3.” It’s fun. It feels good. It’s a little boost and makes your character feel stronger, and let the player have a little smile. If it’s more fun than other styles it going to come down to personal preference, of course. But relying solely on math to judge a feature is missing something.
I classify that as "annoying", not "fun" -- it combines being mechanically weak with requiring extra mental effort to actually use and giving you a fairly lame outcome (how often do you cheer about rolling a 3?)
I often think, in conversations like this, people overlook the fun factor. It’s a game for having fun, not a math problem to be solved. And when you roll and you get a 1 or 2, but get to say “but for me, that’s a 3.” It’s fun. It feels good. It’s a little boost and makes your character feel stronger, and let the player have a little smile. If it’s more fun than other styles it going to come down to personal preference, of course. But relying solely on math to judge a feature is missing something.
I classify that as "annoying", not "fun" -- it combines being mechanically weak with requiring extra mental effort to actually use and giving you a fairly lame outcome (how often do you cheer about rolling a 3?)
It’s mechanically about even with Dueling on 2d6 weapons in terms of dpr adjustment. Average is slightly below, but has about twice the potential boost on a given roll.
It’s mechanically about even with Dueling on 2d6 weapons in terms of dpr adjustment. Average is slightly below, but has about twice the potential boost on a given roll.
Um... no, it isn't. For every d6, it's a 1/6 chance to add +2, and a 1/6 chance to add +1, for a total of +3/6 per d6, or +1 damage on 2d6. Dueling is +2 damage.
It’s mechanically about even with Dueling on 2d6 weapons in terms of dpr adjustment. Average is slightly below, but has about twice the potential boost on a given roll.
Um... no, it isn't. For every d6, it's a 1/6 chance to add +2, and a 1/6 chance to add +1, for a total of +3/6 per d6, or +1 damage on 2d6. Dueling is +2 damage.
Yes, that would be why I said “about”, as in “close but not identical”. The 1 point of damage difference is not significant.
I mean, it’s an average of 1 extra dpr on the weapons that already have the highest average output, get two of the best masteries for improving the dpr, and a feat that gives a damage bonus that scales as you level to every hit. If they gave it a boost that number crunchers actually considered good on its own, people would be complaining that great weapons in general are too OP.
Well, the usual solution is to take a different mastery (defense or blind fighting are solid choices).
Those aren't masteries
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oh yes, guaranteed damage on every attack or the opportunity to hit a second creature with an attack, they’re practically punishing you with those two.
Um.. cleave is awful? Graze doesn't scale very well (high level characters don't miss very often), but cleave is excellent (remember, cleave may not add your ability score modifier, but it adds all your other damage bonuses, so your level 17 paladin with a holy avenger greatsword and great weapon mastery is cleaving for 2d6+1d8+9 [20] (+2d10 vs fiends and undead)).
Hi all, please correct me if I am wrong, but I personally find GWF AMAZING. My level 4 Fighter/Battler Master has amazing DPR. Let's have a look, shall we. This is how I try to play my first, and with little bit of luck and co-operation with the rest of the party, and every other round.
1. I declare "Lounging attack" and will use Dash as Bonus action, to create a straight running path towards my target.
2. CHARGE!!! Let the fun begin - I roll following dices: "When you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon that you are holding with two hands, you can treat any 1 or 2 on a damage die as a 3"
Rolling Damage:
Maul Attack 2d6 = Dmg Min 3+3, Max 6+6. = 8 Average
Lunging Attack Superiority die 1d8 = Dmg Min 3 max 8 = 4,875 Average
Charger Attack (Feat Charger) = 1d8 Dmg Min 3 max 8 = 4,875 Average
Maul mastery - Topple - "cherry on top", to make my enemy Prone, so I can run away (Disadvantage on opportunity), with rest of my movement to get ready for next round.
All together on average I should do 18 Dmg per attack on level 4. Min 12dmg ( 4 times 3dmg as minimum)
I think part of the issue is that you are not calculating the averages correctly. You are treating all the possible results on an individual die as equally likely. This would be true when rolling a die normally, but when the rule is telling you that a 1 or a 2 on the die counts as a 3, a result of 3 is much more likely than any of the other possible results.
The actual average of a 2d6 roll under these conditions is 8. Since the average of a normal 2d6 roll is 7, the feat is only providing you a +1 increase to average damage. This is why people complain about it; many people don't think this is worth spending a fighting style on.
Likewise, the actual average of 1d8 under these conditions is 4.875. This is technically better than the normal average on a d8 (which is 4.5) but barely noticeable in practice.
pronouns: he/she/they
Problem 1: that's not how averaging works. To get the average of 1d6, you sum up possible results (1+2+3+4+5+6=21) and divide by the number of possible results (6). This gives you 21/6 or 3.5. With GWF, that becomes (3+3+3+4+5+6)/6 or 24/6 or 4. Doubled for 2d6, 8.
Problem 2: GWF doesn't apply to superiority dice or dice from Charger
That said, your fighter may well be amazing, but that's because fighters in general and battle masters in particular are amazing in tier 1.
Hi Pantagruel666. :)
Thanks for correcting my math. I was thinking about the math, later that day. I did forget the fact, that now I have 3 potential outcomes with 3 DMG as result of a roll. Agree the math is weaker than anticipated. HUPS.
To your second point. I do not agree with your statement that "GWF doesn't apply to Superiority die or dice from Charger".
As per official Player's Handbook 2024:
GWF - When you roll damage for an attack you make with a Melee weapon that you are holding with two hands, you can treat any 1 or 2 on a damage die as a 3. Feats - Player’s Handbook - Dungeons & Dragons - Sources - D&D Beyond
As for Fighter Superiority Die, It is a called a Maneuver = "Type of Attack". Specifically it is called Lunging Attack. Also last sentence of Lunging Attack description says "...add the Superiority Die to the attack’s damage roll." Character Classes - Player’s Handbook - Dungeons & Dragons - Sources - D&D Beyond
As for the Charging Attack, logic and wording is the same. "...gain a 1d8 bonus to the attack’s damage roll..." Feats - Player’s Handbook - Dungeons & Dragons - Sources - D&D Beyond
But, as with my incorrect math, I am open for discussion. :) Have a nice day :)
Actually not sure the GWF damage adjustment would apply to the damage done by many spells, whose casting would be being added to the weapon's attack, since the spell is doing the damage not the weapon, and is probably a damage type different than the weapon's damage type. So in the example with "True Strike" if you're using it to do "Radiant" damage I wouldn't think it would apply, but if you're using it to simply add to the slashing or bludgeoning damage implying the spell simply gave you insight as to where to strike your opponent more effectively, I could see the argument being made that GWF could apply. I do think it would add with say a Battle Master, superiority die, being added as damage, since the damage done is inherently the same as the weapon's damage type in relation to the fighter simply applying an improved/enhanced technique of using the weapon, or some other similar character feat/feature, like a multiclass fighter/thief who has GWF using it with their sneak attack damage, or as mentioned above a multiclass fighter/barbarian who has the GWF fighting style from their fighter side, then applying it to their brutal strike bonus damage.
Great Weapon Fighting can apply to attacks made with True Strike as long as an appropriate weapon is being used. There is nothing in the rules saying that it's different based on the chosen damage type. The same is true of Battle Master maneuvers, again as long as the attack is made with a melee weapon used in two hands. There is nothing different about these two situations as far as Great Weapon Fighting is concerned.
Great Weapon Fighting mostly can't be used with Sneak Attack, because Great Weapon Fighting only applies to two-handed or versatile melee weapons, and Sneak Attack only applies to ranged weapons or finesse melee weapons. There are no standard weapons in the Player's Handbook that meet both sets of criteria, so there's usually no way to use both abilities at the same time.
One exception to this is the magic weapon Sun Blade, which (unusually for longswords) has both the finesse and versatile properties. If used in two hands, an attack with this weapon could potentially benefit from both abilities.
pronouns: he/she/they
When you only focus only on "averages" and the precents, then anything looks menial. 🤷🏿♂️
It only works when you can add dice of damage, so surprisingly is not for fighters. In this case having defense, blind fighting or unarmed style (which can be lifesaving) I’d never never take into account to get GWF. I would get archery instead even for mainly melee fighters, to compensate a lower Dex when have to use range weapons.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sae/sage-advice-compendium#FeatGreatWeaponFighting
The last bastion saving GWF is already dead, Sage Advice says that GWF does not apply to other sources like smites or Hex.
I mean, it’s an average of 1 extra dpr on the weapons that already have the highest average output, get two of the best masteries for improving the dpr, and a feat that gives a damage bonus that scales as you level to every hit. If they gave it a boost that number crunchers actually considered good on its own, people would be complaining that great weapons in general are too OP.
Well, the usual solution is to take a different mastery (defense or blind fighting are solid choices).
I often think, in conversations like this, people overlook the fun factor. It’s a game for having fun, not a math problem to be solved. And when you roll and you get a 1 or 2, but get to say “but for me, that’s a 3.” It’s fun. It feels good. It’s a little boost and makes your character feel stronger, and let the player have a little smile.
If it’s more fun than other styles it going to come down to personal preference, of course. But relying solely on math to judge a feature is missing something.
I classify that as "annoying", not "fun" -- it combines being mechanically weak with requiring extra mental effort to actually use and giving you a fairly lame outcome (how often do you cheer about rolling a 3?)
It’s mechanically about even with Dueling on 2d6 weapons in terms of dpr adjustment. Average is slightly below, but has about twice the potential boost on a given roll.
Um... no, it isn't. For every d6, it's a 1/6 chance to add +2, and a 1/6 chance to add +1, for a total of +3/6 per d6, or +1 damage on 2d6. Dueling is +2 damage.
Yes, that would be why I said “about”, as in “close but not identical”. The 1 point of damage difference is not significant.
Those aren't masteries
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"Half as good" is absolutely significant.