EDIT for a slightly longer answer: yep that’s correct, it’s a handy way for Rogues to set up a guaranteed sneak attack, although it does mean giving up the multitude of other things they can use their bonus action on. I suspect it’s stuff like this that’s resulted in optional flanking rules apparently not appearing in the new DMG, there’s already a load of new ways to get advantage so flanking as well is just overkill
Worth pointing out that you can still only do Sneak Attack once per turn. In this scenario, if the first attack were also eligible for Sneak Attack, you could only use it on one or the other, not both.
EDIT for a slightly longer answer: yep that’s correct, it’s a handy way for Rogues to set up a guaranteed sneak attack, although it does mean giving up the multitude of other things they can use their bonus action on. I suspect it’s stuff like this that’s resulted in optional flanking rules apparently not appearing in the new DMG, there’s already a load of new ways to get advantage so flanking as well is just overkill
Not even then, necessarily. Daggers have Nick, iirc, so they can make that roll as a part of the same Attack Action.
If you hit a creature shortsword and have weapon mastery for shortsword then you can inflict Vex on to the creature, giving you advantage on the next attack against the same creature. Since advantage allows for sneak attack, this means Rogues can now activate their own sneak attacks.
This however does not work if you have disadvantage against the target, since Disadvantage and Advantage cancel each other out. Additionally, since Vex is status placed on to the target, not the user, you can only sneak attack against the same creature, so if that creature dies or somehow has a feature/reaction that allows it to get away for the following strike, you don't gain that benefit against another creature.
One Idea I have been contemplating is the Hand Crossbow and Scimitar Rogue, using crossbow expert. You can make an attack from range, if you hit you can then move in closer and go for the Scimitar attack using Nick. If not you make another hand crossbow attack before heading in. Once you have advantage you use nick to perform the actual sneak attack and then withdraw with cunning strike and if you still have your BA, you can make your additional hand crossbow attack. An option that comes online at level 5, making 3 attacks around and you avoid any potential opportunity attacks against you.
EDIT for a slightly longer answer: yep that’s correct, it’s a handy way for Rogues to set up a guaranteed sneak attack, although it does mean giving up the multitude of other things they can use their bonus action on. I suspect it’s stuff like this that’s resulted in optional flanking rules apparently not appearing in the new DMG, there’s already a load of new ways to get advantage so flanking as well is just overkill
Not even then, necessarily. Daggers have Nick, iirc, so they can make that roll as a part of the same Attack Action.
That would only be if you use the dagger on the main attack, Nick doesn’t give an extra attack it just moves the bonus action one across, but that would mean you weren’t using the short sword on the main attack to set up the advantage on Vex
EDIT for a slightly longer answer: yep that’s correct, it’s a handy way for Rogues to set up a guaranteed sneak attack, although it does mean giving up the multitude of other things they can use their bonus action on. I suspect it’s stuff like this that’s resulted in optional flanking rules apparently not appearing in the new DMG, there’s already a load of new ways to get advantage so flanking as well is just overkill
Not even then, necessarily. Daggers have Nick, iirc, so they can make that roll as a part of the same Attack Action.
That would only be if you use the dagger on the main attack, Nick doesn’t give an extra attack it just moves the bonus action one across, but that would mean you weren’t using the short sword on the main attack to set up the advantage on Vex
The main attack doesn’t need to be with a Nick weapon to trigger the extra attack: it just needs to be with a Light weapon.
High initiative isn’t always that great on rogue, you kind of want your beef to move in first so you can get your sneak attacks. I’d want that on the assassin subclass though, for surehttps://19216801****/https://routerlogin.uno/ .
EDIT for a slightly longer answer: yep that’s correct, it’s a handy way for Rogues to set up a guaranteed sneak attack, although it does mean giving up the multitude of other things they can use their bonus action on. I suspect it’s stuff like this that’s resulted in optional flanking rules apparently not appearing in the new DMG, there’s already a load of new ways to get advantage so flanking as well is just overkill
Not even then, necessarily. Daggers have Nick, iirc, so they can make that roll as a part of the same Attack Action.
That would only be if you use the dagger on the main attack, Nick doesn’t give an extra attack it just moves the bonus action one across, but that would mean you weren’t using the short sword on the main attack to set up the advantage on Vex
The main attack doesn’t need to be with a Nick weapon to trigger the extra attack: it just needs to be with a Light weapon.
True but if your aim is to take advantage of the Vex advantage and do it all on the same turn your Action attack needs to be with a Vex weapon and then your second attack with a Bonus action so the Nick property doesn’t even come into it
EDIT for a slightly longer answer: yep that’s correct, it’s a handy way for Rogues to set up a guaranteed sneak attack, although it does mean giving up the multitude of other things they can use their bonus action on. I suspect it’s stuff like this that’s resulted in optional flanking rules apparently not appearing in the new DMG, there’s already a load of new ways to get advantage so flanking as well is just overkill
Not even then, necessarily. Daggers have Nick, iirc, so they can make that roll as a part of the same Attack Action.
That would only be if you use the dagger on the main attack, Nick doesn’t give an extra attack it just moves the bonus action one across, but that would mean you weren’t using the short sword on the main attack to set up the advantage on Vex
The main attack doesn’t need to be with a Nick weapon to trigger the extra attack: it just needs to be with a Light weapon.
True but if your aim is to take advantage of the Vex advantage and do it all on the same turn your Action attack needs to be with a Vex weapon and then your second attack with a Bonus action so the Nick property doesn’t even come into it
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
It's possible I'm reading it wrong but my interpretation of the rules is you need to use the weapon as part of your action in order to activate the mastery property. This means unless you have two attacks (so not a Rogue) you can't use a Vex weapon as part of your action and then immediately use a Nick weapon because you never activated the Nick property. To me anything else would be over powered and go against the spirit of Rogues only getting the one attack per round
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
It's possible I'm reading it wrong but my interpretation of the rules is you need to use the weapon as part of your action in order to activate the mastery property. This means unless you have two attacks (so not a Rogue) you can't use a Vex weapon as part of your action and then immediately use a Nick weapon because you never activated the Nick property. To me anything else would be over powered and go against the spirit of Rogues only getting the one attack per round
Nick is special, it's the only Mastery Property that contains nothing saying the weapon needs to be used, most of the Mastery properties have something along the lines of, "If you hit a creature with this weapon," but Nick does not. I personally interpret this as being left open so that it can be used for either the initial attack or the light weapon extra attack itself.
As such it should be valid to attack with a Vex weapon (i.e. Shortsword or Hand Crossbow) and then attack with a Nick weapon (i.e. Dagger or Scimitar) and benefit from the light extra attack being part of the attack action.
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
It's possible I'm reading it wrong but my interpretation of the rules is you need to use the weapon as part of your action in order to activate the mastery property. This means unless you have two attacks (so not a Rogue) you can't use a Vex weapon as part of your action and then immediately use a Nick weapon because you never activated the Nick property. To me anything else would be over powered and go against the spirit of Rogues only getting the one attack per round
Rogues have always (throughout 5e at least) been able to make more than one attack per round (BA attack with light weapons, attacks of opportunity). Nick doesn’t really change that: it just moves the Light weapon attack to the action, freeing up the bonus action.
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
It's possible I'm reading it wrong but my interpretation of the rules is you need to use the weapon as part of your action in order to activate the mastery property. This means unless you have two attacks (so not a Rogue) you can't use a Vex weapon as part of your action and then immediately use a Nick weapon because you never activated the Nick property. To me anything else would be over powered and go against the spirit of Rogues only getting the one attack per round
Nick is special, it's the only Mastery Property that contains nothing saying the weapon needs to be used, most of the Mastery properties have something along the lines of, "If you hit a creature with this weapon," but Nick does not. I personally interpret this as being left open so that it can be used for either the initial attack or the light weapon extra attack itself.
As such it should be valid to attack with a Vex weapon (i.e. Shortsword or Hand Crossbow) and then attack with a Nick weapon (i.e. Dagger or Scimitar) and benefit from the light extra attack being part of the attack action.
There is no RAW answer as to which weapon needs to be the Nick weapon in order to use the Nick mastery. There are perfectly good arguments that it must be the one that you make the initial attack with, and that it must be the one that you make the additional attack with. There are less good arguments for other interpretations.
Since it's not written, consult with your GM before making plans where it matters. In practice, it doesn't much matter -- a rogue alternating between nick and vex weapons will get the sneak attack most rounds. It may limit you in the first round.
(My personal interpretation is that the Nick weapon must be the one you make the additional attack with, because that seems most consistent with how other weapon masteries behave.)
One Idea I have been contemplating is the Hand Crossbow and Scimitar Rogue, using crossbow expert. You can make an attack from range, if you hit you can then move in closer and go for the Scimitar attack using Nick. If not you make another hand crossbow attack before heading in. Once you have advantage you use nick to perform the actual sneak attack and then withdraw with cunning strike and if you still have your BA, you can make your additional hand crossbow attack. An option that comes online at level 5, making 3 attacks around and you avoid any potential opportunity attacks against you.
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
It's possible I'm reading it wrong but my interpretation of the rules is you need to use the weapon as part of your action in order to activate the mastery property. This means unless you have two attacks (so not a Rogue) you can't use a Vex weapon as part of your action and then immediately use a Nick weapon because you never activated the Nick property. To me anything else would be over powered and go against the spirit of Rogues only getting the one attack per round
Nick is special, it's the only Mastery Property that contains nothing saying the weapon needs to be used, most of the Mastery properties have something along the lines of, "If you hit a creature with this weapon," but Nick does not. I personally interpret this as being left open so that it can be used for either the initial attack or the light weapon extra attack itself.
As such it should be valid to attack with a Vex weapon (i.e. Shortsword or Hand Crossbow) and then attack with a Nick weapon (i.e. Dagger or Scimitar) and benefit from the light extra attack being part of the attack action.
There is no RAW answer as to which weapon needs to be the Nick weapon in order to use the Nick mastery. There are perfectly good arguments that it must be the one that you make the initial attack with, and that it must be the one that you make the additional attack with. There are less good arguments for other interpretations.
Since it's not written, consult with your GM before making plans where it matters. In practice, it doesn't much matter -- a rogue alternating between nick and vex weapons will get the sneak attack most rounds. It may limit you in the first round.
(My personal interpretation is that the Nick weapon must be the one you make the additional attack with, because that seems most consistent with how other weapon masteries behave.)
One Idea I have been contemplating is the Hand Crossbow and Scimitar Rogue, using crossbow expert. You can make an attack from range, if you hit you can then move in closer and go for the Scimitar attack using Nick. If not you make another hand crossbow attack before heading in. Once you have advantage you use nick to perform the actual sneak attack and then withdraw with cunning strike and if you still have your BA, you can make your additional hand crossbow attack. An option that comes online at level 5, making 3 attacks around and you avoid any potential opportunity attacks against you.
Where's that third attack coming from?
Nothing in the Nick Mastery says that the Nick Weapon has to be used in either attack, but I again interpret that as meaning it is usable for either of the two attacks. Some might argue some weird weapon switching shenanigans, I'm sure but I wouldn't go that far.
As for the 3rd attack, it was late when I posted it, it'd work but it'd have to be two scimitar attacks, unfortunately, not two crossbow attacks, as you'd take Dual Wielder but that is limited to melee weapons, which I forgot about while posting it.
So you could do, Scimitar, Hand Crossbow, Scimitar. If you hit with the Vex Weapon or do Scimitar, Hand Crossbow, BA Disengage if you don't. In situations where you don't have a better target for sneak attack. You'd still get to apply your ability modifier to the Hand Crossbow due to crossbow expert.
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
It's possible I'm reading it wrong but my interpretation of the rules is you need to use the weapon as part of your action in order to activate the mastery property. This means unless you have two attacks (so not a Rogue) you can't use a Vex weapon as part of your action and then immediately use a Nick weapon because you never activated the Nick property. To me anything else would be over powered and go against the spirit of Rogues only getting the one attack per round
Nick is special, it's the only Mastery Property that contains nothing saying the weapon needs to be used, most of the Mastery properties have something along the lines of, "If you hit a creature with this weapon," but Nick does not. I personally interpret this as being left open so that it can be used for either the initial attack or the light weapon extra attack itself.
As such it should be valid to attack with a Vex weapon (i.e. Shortsword or Hand Crossbow) and then attack with a Nick weapon (i.e. Dagger or Scimitar) and benefit from the light extra attack being part of the attack action.
There is no RAW answer as to which weapon needs to be the Nick weapon in order to use the Nick mastery. There are perfectly good arguments that it must be the one that you make the initial attack with, and that it must be the one that you make the additional attack with. There are less good arguments for other interpretations.
Since it's not written, consult with your GM before making plans where it matters. In practice, it doesn't much matter -- a rogue alternating between nick and vex weapons will get the sneak attack most rounds. It may limit you in the first round.
(My personal interpretation is that the Nick weapon must be the one you make the additional attack with, because that seems most consistent with how other weapon masteries behave.)
One Idea I have been contemplating is the Hand Crossbow and Scimitar Rogue, using crossbow expert. You can make an attack from range, if you hit you can then move in closer and go for the Scimitar attack using Nick. If not you make another hand crossbow attack before heading in. Once you have advantage you use nick to perform the actual sneak attack and then withdraw with cunning strike and if you still have your BA, you can make your additional hand crossbow attack. An option that comes online at level 5, making 3 attacks around and you avoid any potential opportunity attacks against you.
Where's that third attack coming from?
Nothing in the Nick Mastery says that the Nick Weapon has to be used in either attack, but I again interpret that as meaning it is usable for either of the two attacks.
As I said, in the absence of either a book answer or an official ruling, that's a question for your GM. (It wouldn't fly at my table, but that is my personal ruling in the absence of anything else to work with.)
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Am I reading this correctly..
If the rogue hits a creature with a Weapon Mastered Shortsword, does he get advantage on the bonus action dagger attack and thus sneak attack damage?
Yes
EDIT for a slightly longer answer: yep that’s correct, it’s a handy way for Rogues to set up a guaranteed sneak attack, although it does mean giving up the multitude of other things they can use their bonus action on. I suspect it’s stuff like this that’s resulted in optional flanking rules apparently not appearing in the new DMG, there’s already a load of new ways to get advantage so flanking as well is just overkill
Worth pointing out that you can still only do Sneak Attack once per turn. In this scenario, if the first attack were also eligible for Sneak Attack, you could only use it on one or the other, not both.
pronouns: he/she/they
Not even then, necessarily. Daggers have Nick, iirc, so they can make that roll as a part of the same Attack Action.
If you hit a creature shortsword and have weapon mastery for shortsword then you can inflict Vex on to the creature, giving you advantage on the next attack against the same creature. Since advantage allows for sneak attack, this means Rogues can now activate their own sneak attacks.
This however does not work if you have disadvantage against the target, since Disadvantage and Advantage cancel each other out. Additionally, since Vex is status placed on to the target, not the user, you can only sneak attack against the same creature, so if that creature dies or somehow has a feature/reaction that allows it to get away for the following strike, you don't gain that benefit against another creature.
One Idea I have been contemplating is the Hand Crossbow and Scimitar Rogue, using crossbow expert. You can make an attack from range, if you hit you can then move in closer and go for the Scimitar attack using Nick. If not you make another hand crossbow attack before heading in. Once you have advantage you use nick to perform the actual sneak attack and then withdraw with cunning strike and if you still have your BA, you can make your additional hand crossbow attack. An option that comes online at level 5, making 3 attacks around and you avoid any potential opportunity attacks against you.
That would only be if you use the dagger on the main attack, Nick doesn’t give an extra attack it just moves the bonus action one across, but that would mean you weren’t using the short sword on the main attack to set up the advantage on Vex
The main attack doesn’t need to be with a Nick weapon to trigger the extra attack: it just needs to be with a Light weapon.
High initiative isn’t always that great on rogue, you kind of want your beef to move in first so you can get your sneak attacks. I’d want that on the assassin subclass though, for sure https://19216801****/ https://routerlogin.uno/ .
True but if your aim is to take advantage of the Vex advantage and do it all on the same turn your Action attack needs to be with a Vex weapon and then your second attack with a Bonus action so the Nick property doesn’t even come into it
I think you have misunderstood the interaction here, Nick moves the bonus action to being part of the same attack action and nothing requires the Nick weapon to be used to perform the initial attack, it can perform the extra attack as part of the attack action. Then if you get Dual Wielder you get into a discussion there has already been 10 threads be based on already, so I won't waste the time. Short answer is that with a Nick weapon, you don't need to use the Bonus Action for the light weapon extra attack any more. You could instead use the Bonus action for something else.
It's possible I'm reading it wrong but my interpretation of the rules is you need to use the weapon as part of your action in order to activate the mastery property. This means unless you have two attacks (so not a Rogue) you can't use a Vex weapon as part of your action and then immediately use a Nick weapon because you never activated the Nick property. To me anything else would be over powered and go against the spirit of Rogues only getting the one attack per round
Nick is special, it's the only Mastery Property that contains nothing saying the weapon needs to be used, most of the Mastery properties have something along the lines of, "If you hit a creature with this weapon," but Nick does not. I personally interpret this as being left open so that it can be used for either the initial attack or the light weapon extra attack itself.
As such it should be valid to attack with a Vex weapon (i.e. Shortsword or Hand Crossbow) and then attack with a Nick weapon (i.e. Dagger or Scimitar) and benefit from the light extra attack being part of the attack action.
Rogues have always (throughout 5e at least) been able to make more than one attack per round (BA attack with light weapons, attacks of opportunity). Nick doesn’t really change that: it just moves the Light weapon attack to the action, freeing up the bonus action.
There is no RAW answer as to which weapon needs to be the Nick weapon in order to use the Nick mastery. There are perfectly good arguments that it must be the one that you make the initial attack with, and that it must be the one that you make the additional attack with. There are less good arguments for other interpretations.
Since it's not written, consult with your GM before making plans where it matters. In practice, it doesn't much matter -- a rogue alternating between nick and vex weapons will get the sneak attack most rounds. It may limit you in the first round.
(My personal interpretation is that the Nick weapon must be the one you make the additional attack with, because that seems most consistent with how other weapon masteries behave.)
Also, going back a few posts:
Where's that third attack coming from?
Nothing in the Nick Mastery says that the Nick Weapon has to be used in either attack, but I again interpret that as meaning it is usable for either of the two attacks. Some might argue some weird weapon switching shenanigans, I'm sure but I wouldn't go that far.
As for the 3rd attack, it was late when I posted it, it'd work but it'd have to be two scimitar attacks, unfortunately, not two crossbow attacks, as you'd take Dual Wielder but that is limited to melee weapons, which I forgot about while posting it.
So you could do, Scimitar, Hand Crossbow, Scimitar. If you hit with the Vex Weapon or do Scimitar, Hand Crossbow, BA Disengage if you don't. In situations where you don't have a better target for sneak attack. You'd still get to apply your ability modifier to the Hand Crossbow due to crossbow expert.
As I said, in the absence of either a book answer or an official ruling, that's a question for your GM. (It wouldn't fly at my table, but that is my personal ruling in the absence of anything else to work with.)