Ok, so I tried to do a side by side compare between TCoE and UA versions
Here are the things I noticed we lost.
Firearms proficiency! I can't help but feel that Magical tinkering is a straight downgrade. It used to be a semi-permanent minor magical effect, now it is a 1 hour bedroll... No more tool expertise! That hurts! The discount on regular crafting went from a global discount of 75% off time and 50% off gold cost on common and uncommon items to just 50% time on an item type depending on subclass. And lost the best part of our capstone feature.
Yeah, we got other stuff, but I don't feel like we came out ahead in the wash and I definitely feel like we started well behind most other classes.
I think the new Magical Tinkering is an upgrade --- it was mostly a ribbon feature before, but now it can freely generate expendable stuff like caltrops, oil, and rope (well, expendable when you have to leave it behind)...and being able to get a pole, net, or bucket when no-one has one is kinda nice, too.
That level 11 feature tho- There is lots of CharOp in that gem. It is right up there with the lore bard’s Magical Discoveries in situational OMFG!
Yes, that is a pretty powerful upgrade. Part of me thinks maybe the option to use a 3rd level spell should be gated to a higher level, but I also really want to be able to just spam a third level spell slot like Fly or Haste at level 11, not to mention the subclass specific spells like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or Mass Healing Word.
Yeah, that is a cool ability, but keep in mind, it comes online at level 11! We had it before, but now it is slightly more flexible and can cast up to level 3 spells. I see this as mostly a win for artillerists being able to give a fighter a sword of fireballs effectively. There are a lot of good level 3 spells available though. It is still casting it at level 3 though, at a time when dedicated spellcasters are throwing out level 6 spells and it never gets any stronger than that. Not saying it isn't REALLY good, but I have a hard time getting that excited for any ability that comes into play after level 10. Most games I've been in just don't last that long.
Yeah, would be fun, but that is a level 20 character. There are tons of interesting ways to build a level 20 character. What I am interested in is mostly levels 4 through 10. That is the meat and potatoes of the game. That is the level range I can reasonably expect a campaign to last to. And I feel like this version of the Artificer is just starting to get out of bed at level 9.
Artificer has always been a skill monkey character with pretty subpar combat capabilities, and the update... hasn't changed that.
I beg to differ, it has in fact changed that. With the loss of tool expertise, it isn't even that good of a skill monkey character. Rogues and bards both do it better with nothing unique in the Artificer's court.
I beg to differ, it has in fact changed that. With the loss of tool expertise, it isn't even that good of a skill monkey character. Rogues and bards both do it better with nothing unique in the Artificer's court.
True, it lost tool expertise, though IME it didn't come up that much. Flash of genius is distinctive but has scaling issues.
I would have preferred to see WotC give us an artificer devoid of spells, a class entirely devoted to the creation and use magic items. A class that uses magical objects to support their mundane skills and abilities. The class would be built around the permanent buffs of the items they wear and carry, as opposed to the temporary nature of the Vancian magic present in D&D. I want to see classes that present VERY different ways to play the game, and THAT would be one. But, that is just my 2 cents…
Mini snooty rant over, shop as usual, and avoid panic buying…
I am with you on this. I think the artificer is trying to do too many things and just doesn't excel at any of them. I think they should be the premiere skill monkey class with really good bonuses to crafting of all flavors. The ability to craft non-magical +1 items for example just due to the sheer quality of the build. The ability to apply bonuses to allies' equipment by improving the items.
There is a lot of room for such a class to excel when it is not burdened by being a half caster.
Though, an argument could be made that they shouldn't even BE a half caster with the rest of their abilities being this unimpressive. If they were a full caster my complaints would evaporate. But as things are, it feels like the casting is not sufficient to keep up with casters, their fighting is not sufficient to keep up martials, and their crafting is not sufficient to match the buffs that a good buffer can provide to the party. They aren't good at social aspects of the game, they are only mediocre at exploration and problem solving, and they are poor at combat unless you REALLY fine tune the build.
Oh well, I should stop complaining for now. I am just working out my frustration and disappointment on my poor keyboard at this point.
I shall remind that you all can do more than merely take out your frustrations on the Keyboard!
This is a playtest. You can test this out, come up with your polite, clearly typed, properly spelled, well punctuated, well reasoned, brief rationales, and then supply them via the feedback survey.
This is not the final form of the class, merely a starting point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I wonder which book this is going to be in? Doesn't seem a natural fit for any of the announced ones so are we getting a new Eberron book in 2026?
Ugh. I hope not.
My suspicion is that it is going to be the Forgotten Realms Player guide. Though I think there is a possibility its not gong to be in a book until 2026. There is an anthology book about dragons, but I don't see it appearing in that or the Starter set. So if its not the Forgotten Realms Player's guide, it will not show up till at least 2026, and then probably late in the year.
Oh boy, an updated artificer! I hope they give the armorer those late-game damage upgrades it's been sorely missing!
>Guardian's damage die increases one size, for a total of +1 average damage.
>The changes to infusions and Armor Modifications seem to have removed the ability to put a +1/+2 on the Armorer's built-in weapons.
Great, the damage boost is a net minus 2 to hit and minus 1 to damage.
Alright, alright. I know the feedback period comes later. But the sheer lack of offensive upgrades for the armorer has been a very sore subject in my current campaign (playing as guardian-focused armorer). The armorer artificer falls behind every other frontliner in damage, and there's nothing you can do about it as a player.
There's no big boost to your damage going into Tier 3.
The armorer has no "X uses per day" damage boosting feature, no risk vs reward feature like Reckless Attack, no spells that boost damage like Hunter's Mark, no Smite, or anything like that. You have no means to outperform your baseline.
You have almost certainly built your character to use the armor's built-in weapons. You don't get martial weapon proficiency, and your strength and dexterity are too low to use other weapons effectively anyway. Random loot cannot help you.
This needs to be addressed. It's intensely frustrating to consistently deal the lowest damage in the party, and have exactly zero options whatsoever to try to hit harder.
On a side note, the Dreadnought armor is cool. Build on that, please!
Alchemist still has the issue of nothing to do on their turns. Not enough spell slots to cast offensively, no class/subclass features to use on their turns. Even with the addition of 3rd level spells on Spell Storing Item, they don't have an offensive 3rd level spell on their subclass spell list, so they are either dropping a 2nd level spell on Spell Storing Item, or Haste/Fly/Cure Wounds.
Artillerists still have the problem where their main subclass feature only lasts for 1 hour and requires a spell slot to recharge, so every time the party takes a short rest the Artillerist loses a spell slot. The issue can be solved by just increasing the duration of the canon. It already dies and requires a spell slot to bring back when it takes any significant damage. Best hope no one wants more than a single short rest before 5th level. Also, Protector is overpowered at low levels and completely negligible by level 10.
The Alchemist though, that one needs a serious rework to actually have something to do on their turn. Every other subclass has something to do every turn. Alchemists? Administer 2 potions as bonus actions, then you're done.
Alchemist still has the issue of nothing to do on their turns. Not enough spell slots to cast offensively, no class/subclass features to use on their turns. Even with the addition of 3rd level spells on Spell Storing Item, they don't have an offensive 3rd level spell on their subclass spell list, so they are either dropping a 2nd level spell on Spell Storing Item, or Haste/Fly/Cure Wounds.
Artillerists still have the problem where their main subclass feature only lasts for 1 hour and requires a spell slot to recharge, so every time the party takes a short rest the Artillerist loses a spell slot. The issue can be solved by just increasing the duration of the canon. It already dies and requires a spell slot to bring back when it takes any significant damage. Best hope no one wants more than a single short rest before 5th level. Also, Protector is overpowered at low levels and completely negligible by level 10.
The Alchemist though, that one needs a serious rework to actually have something to do on their turn. Every other subclass has something to do every turn. Alchemists? Administer 2 potions as bonus actions, then you're done.
I can see the artificer being like, no guys we can't short rest...while the warlocks are like, We need a short rest so we can have our spells back.
Mechanically the old one is great. Put a 10' light on a coin, throw it to where the action is so no one has to hold a torch. Melee can carry it as a localized light and easily tuck it away. Light on an arrow, shoot a mob, now they have a light stuck to them. Use the audio recording to set up a distraction for an ambush. I had one adventure where we used a bunch of the recording ones to put together a background track for a performance scene.
The new ones are nonsensical. You can create a bedroll and blanket, but they only last for 1 hour. So you curl up in bed just to wake up moments later flat on the ground freezing.
Alchemist still has the issue of nothing to do on their turns. Not enough spell slots to cast offensively, no class/subclass features to use on their turns. Even with the addition of 3rd level spells on Spell Storing Item, they don't have an offensive 3rd level spell on their subclass spell list, so they are either dropping a 2nd level spell on Spell Storing Item, or Haste/Fly/Cure Wounds.
Artillerists still have the problem where their main subclass feature only lasts for 1 hour and requires a spell slot to recharge, so every time the party takes a short rest the Artillerist loses a spell slot. The issue can be solved by just increasing the duration of the canon. It already dies and requires a spell slot to bring back when it takes any significant damage. Best hope no one wants more than a single short rest before 5th level. Also, Protector is overpowered at low levels and completely negligible by level 10.
The Alchemist though, that one needs a serious rework to actually have something to do on their turn. Every other subclass has something to do every turn. Alchemists? Administer 2 potions as bonus actions, then you're done.
I can see the artificer being like, no guys we can't short rest...while the warlocks are like, We need a short rest so we can have our spells back.
I'm playing an Artillerist in Phandelver and Below right now. Once you get to level 8+, it's less of an issue as you have enough spell slots to deal with it. But level 3 and 4? Hope you don't actually want to cast any spells. Even 5-7, by the end of a chapter you're deciding between holding onto that last spell slot for a heal or for getting your cannon out again. It is incredibly frustrating. And the party has 2 fighters and a warlock in it, so they want to short rest after every encounter.
In the end, the core problem with the artificer is that the secondary class features that are supposed to make up for being a half-caster... don't, at least after tier 1. Arguably they shouldn't even all be the same class, because I would say that the core ambition of each subclass is somewhat different
The Alchemist basically wants to be a cleric with a somewhat unusual spell list, who casts spells with 'potions' and 'elixirs'.
The Armorer wants to be a gish, and has the standard gish problems -- it's not a full martial so its [actions]attack[/actions] action isn't very good, it's not a full caster so its [actions]magic[/actions] action isn't very good. The standard ranger/paladin solution is a hefty list of self-buffs and enhancement spells.
The Artillerist basically wants to be a wizard who casts spells through a construct, instead of directly.
The Battle Smith also wants to be a gish, though in this case it's a gish with a pet.
The cleanest fix is probably to convert them to full casters with unusual spell lists, and a lot of things that are currently class features get turned into spells. However, as that's almost a completely new class, it's probably out of scope for an update. An alternate would be just making the scaling of the class features actually adequate.
I have to say that the "create out of thin air" thing won't work for my games, but I will accept it as a challenge to determine how to "fix' that.
What needs "fixed" about it?
The whole "creating things out of thin air" bit -- as I said above.
That won't fly in my games.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
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Ok, so I tried to do a side by side compare between TCoE and UA versions
Here are the things I noticed we lost.
Firearms proficiency!
I can't help but feel that Magical tinkering is a straight downgrade. It used to be a semi-permanent minor magical effect, now it is a 1 hour bedroll...
No more tool expertise! That hurts!
The discount on regular crafting went from a global discount of 75% off time and 50% off gold cost on common and uncommon items to just 50% time on an item type depending on subclass.
And lost the best part of our capstone feature.
Yeah, we got other stuff, but I don't feel like we came out ahead in the wash and I definitely feel like we started well behind most other classes.
I think the new Magical Tinkering is an upgrade --- it was mostly a ribbon feature before, but now it can freely generate expendable stuff like caltrops, oil, and rope (well, expendable when you have to leave it behind)...and being able to get a pole, net, or bucket when no-one has one is kinda nice, too.
Yes, that is a pretty powerful upgrade. Part of me thinks maybe the option to use a 3rd level spell should be gated to a higher level, but I also really want to be able to just spam a third level spell slot like Fly or Haste at level 11, not to mention the subclass specific spells like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or Mass Healing Word.
Yeah, that is a cool ability, but keep in mind, it comes online at level 11! We had it before, but now it is slightly more flexible and can cast up to level 3 spells. I see this as mostly a win for artillerists being able to give a fighter a sword of fireballs effectively. There are a lot of good level 3 spells available though. It is still casting it at level 3 though, at a time when dedicated spellcasters are throwing out level 6 spells and it never gets any stronger than that. Not saying it isn't REALLY good, but I have a hard time getting that excited for any ability that comes into play after level 10. Most games I've been in just don't last that long.
Yeah, would be fun, but that is a level 20 character. There are tons of interesting ways to build a level 20 character. What I am interested in is mostly levels 4 through 10. That is the meat and potatoes of the game. That is the level range I can reasonably expect a campaign to last to. And I feel like this version of the Artificer is just starting to get out of bed at level 9.
Artificer has always been a skill monkey character with pretty subpar combat capabilities, and the update... hasn't changed that.
I beg to differ, it has in fact changed that. With the loss of tool expertise, it isn't even that good of a skill monkey character. Rogues and bards both do it better with nothing unique in the Artificer's court.
True, it lost tool expertise, though IME it didn't come up that much. Flash of genius is distinctive but has scaling issues.
I am with you on this. I think the artificer is trying to do too many things and just doesn't excel at any of them. I think they should be the premiere skill monkey class with really good bonuses to crafting of all flavors. The ability to craft non-magical +1 items for example just due to the sheer quality of the build. The ability to apply bonuses to allies' equipment by improving the items.
There is a lot of room for such a class to excel when it is not burdened by being a half caster.
Though, an argument could be made that they shouldn't even BE a half caster with the rest of their abilities being this unimpressive. If they were a full caster my complaints would evaporate. But as things are, it feels like the casting is not sufficient to keep up with casters, their fighting is not sufficient to keep up martials, and their crafting is not sufficient to match the buffs that a good buffer can provide to the party. They aren't good at social aspects of the game, they are only mediocre at exploration and problem solving, and they are poor at combat unless you REALLY fine tune the build.
Oh well, I should stop complaining for now. I am just working out my frustration and disappointment on my poor keyboard at this point.
I shall remind that you all can do more than merely take out your frustrations on the Keyboard!
This is a playtest. You can test this out, come up with your polite, clearly typed, properly spelled, well punctuated, well reasoned, brief rationales, and then supply them via the feedback survey.
This is not the final form of the class, merely a starting point.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Ugh. I hope not.
My suspicion is that it is going to be the Forgotten Realms Player guide. Though I think there is a possibility its not gong to be in a book until 2026. There is an anthology book about dragons, but I don't see it appearing in that or the Starter set. So if its not the Forgotten Realms Player's guide, it will not show up till at least 2026, and then probably late in the year.
Oh boy, an updated artificer! I hope they give the armorer those late-game damage upgrades it's been sorely missing!
>Guardian's damage die increases one size, for a total of +1 average damage.
>The changes to infusions and Armor Modifications seem to have removed the ability to put a +1/+2 on the Armorer's built-in weapons.
Great, the damage boost is a net minus 2 to hit and minus 1 to damage.
Alright, alright. I know the feedback period comes later. But the sheer lack of offensive upgrades for the armorer has been a very sore subject in my current campaign (playing as guardian-focused armorer). The armorer artificer falls behind every other frontliner in damage, and there's nothing you can do about it as a player.
This needs to be addressed. It's intensely frustrating to consistently deal the lowest damage in the party, and have exactly zero options whatsoever to try to hit harder.
On a side note, the Dreadnought armor is cool. Build on that, please!
Alchemist still has the issue of nothing to do on their turns. Not enough spell slots to cast offensively, no class/subclass features to use on their turns. Even with the addition of 3rd level spells on Spell Storing Item, they don't have an offensive 3rd level spell on their subclass spell list, so they are either dropping a 2nd level spell on Spell Storing Item, or Haste/Fly/Cure Wounds.
Artillerists still have the problem where their main subclass feature only lasts for 1 hour and requires a spell slot to recharge, so every time the party takes a short rest the Artillerist loses a spell slot. The issue can be solved by just increasing the duration of the canon. It already dies and requires a spell slot to bring back when it takes any significant damage. Best hope no one wants more than a single short rest before 5th level. Also, Protector is overpowered at low levels and completely negligible by level 10.
The Alchemist though, that one needs a serious rework to actually have something to do on their turn. Every other subclass has something to do every turn. Alchemists? Administer 2 potions as bonus actions, then you're done.
I can see the artificer being like, no guys we can't short rest...while the warlocks are like, We need a short rest so we can have our spells back.
Mechanically the old one is great. Put a 10' light on a coin, throw it to where the action is so no one has to hold a torch. Melee can carry it as a localized light and easily tuck it away. Light on an arrow, shoot a mob, now they have a light stuck to them. Use the audio recording to set up a distraction for an ambush. I had one adventure where we used a bunch of the recording ones to put together a background track for a performance scene.
The new ones are nonsensical. You can create a bedroll and blanket, but they only last for 1 hour. So you curl up in bed just to wake up moments later flat on the ground freezing.
I'm playing an Artillerist in Phandelver and Below right now. Once you get to level 8+, it's less of an issue as you have enough spell slots to deal with it. But level 3 and 4? Hope you don't actually want to cast any spells. Even 5-7, by the end of a chapter you're deciding between holding onto that last spell slot for a heal or for getting your cannon out again. It is incredibly frustrating. And the party has 2 fighters and a warlock in it, so they want to short rest after every encounter.
What needs "fixed" about it?
In the end, the core problem with the artificer is that the secondary class features that are supposed to make up for being a half-caster... don't, at least after tier 1. Arguably they shouldn't even all be the same class, because I would say that the core ambition of each subclass is somewhat different
The cleanest fix is probably to convert them to full casters with unusual spell lists, and a lot of things that are currently class features get turned into spells. However, as that's almost a completely new class, it's probably out of scope for an update. An alternate would be just making the scaling of the class features actually adequate.
The whole "creating things out of thin air" bit -- as I said above.
That won't fly in my games.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds