These are two things that support the ongoing and currently deeply hostile environment in the broader world towards LGBTQ+ folks. Who can also be called SGM (Sexand Gender Minorities).
No being noticed means that folks will generally tend to stick to the default, and unintentionally make spaces and places somewhat hostile or feel unwelcomign to LGBTQ people.
It also feeds into the way that some folks tend to conflate Sexually Explicit stuff with being LGBTQ+. The two are not only not the same, they are completely unrelated. If the first thing you think of is someone having sex when people introduce LGBTQ+ things, you are part of the problem, dead stop.
If you have openly LGBTQ folks -- and, right now, especially if you have openly Trans and gender Diverse folks, at your table and in your session, be aware that they are suggesting that they have at least some trust in you that you will not make them feel unwelcome or less than.
And you should notice, and you should take some time to make sure that their joy is as great as your own.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
These are two things that support the ongoing and currently deeply hostile environment in the broader world towards LGBTQ+ folks. Who can also be called SGM (Sexand Gender Minorities).
No being noticed means that folks will generally tend to stick to the default, and unintentionally make spaces and places somewhat hostile or feel unwelcomign to LGBTQ people.
It also feeds into the way that some folks tend to conflate Sexually Explicit stuff with being LGBTQ+. The two are not only not the same, they are completely unrelated. If the first thing you think of is someone having sex when people introduce LGBTQ+ things, you are part of the problem, dead stop.
If you have openly LGBTQ folks -- and, right now, especially if you have openly Trans and gender Diverse folks, at your table and in your session, be aware that they are suggesting that they have at least some trust in you that you will not make them feel unwelcome or less than.
And you should notice, and you should take some time to make sure that their joy is as great as your own.
Shouldn't this apply to everyone at every table not just one group?
I have played several games at mostly LGB tables that were very fun and inclusive, I have also noped out 20 minutes into session 0 that had nothing to do with LGB.
Not every table or game is for everyone the key is communication not forced inclusivity.
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CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
come to think of it sexuality may influence how an npc interacts with your party i.e a gay merchant may be less alpha male and be less harsh in baterring
This is true if done well, but one should be careful to avoid using stereotypes as a way to feign diversity. Your example borders on stereotyping—the common and completely false idea that gay men are “less alpha male” than straight men might be. A better example—a gay NPC might act differently toward a same-sex character whom they find attractive, being more willing to cut deals or provide information (same goes for any other orientation).
Shouldn't this apply to everyone at every table not just one group?
. . .
Not every table or game is for everyone the key is communication not forced inclusivity.
This thread is about LGBT+ players in D&D, that is why it is the only group being discussed. Other groups, of course, should be respected—but that is not the topic of this thread.
I also take issue with your “forced inclusivity” language. Using the word “forced” implies that the group wanting greater inclusivity, wanting the removal of Gygax’s exclusionary elements, wanting stories that appeal to a wider audience are aggressors. They are not the aggressors, they are not the problem, and they should not be painted as such. They can be defensive, at times, but being defensive is a natural consequence when aggressors are attacking you and saying you should not exist and should not exist in the game.
Much like equating sexual identity to sexual activity is a common trick utilised by those seeking to be exclusionary to trick folks into inadvertently supporting bigotry, using language to paint the defenders as aggressors is a common rhetorical ju-jitsu that can be quite effective at turning those who just want more inclusivity into the bad guys. I hope that isn’t what you were doing intentionally—but that is what your rhetoric is doing, and you should be more cognisant of that moving forward.
come to think of it sexuality may influence how an npc interacts with your party i.e a gay merchant may be less alpha male and be less harsh in baterring
This is true if done well, but one should be careful to avoid using stereotypes as a way to feign diversity. Your example borders on stereotyping—the common and completely false idea that gay men are “less alpha male” than straight men might be. A better example—a gay NPC might act differently toward a same-sex character whom they find attractive, being more willing to cut deals or provide information (same goes for any other orientation).
Shouldn't this apply to everyone at every table not just one group?
. . .
Not every table or game is for everyone the key is communication not forced inclusivity.
This thread is about LGBT+ players in D&D, that is why it is the only group being discussed. Other groups, of course, should be respected—but that is not the topic of this thread.
I also take issue with your “forced inclusivity” language. Using the word “forced” implies that the group wanting greater inclusivity, wanting the removal of Gygax’s exclusionary elements, wanting stories that appeal to a wider audience are aggressors. They are not the aggressors, they are not the problem, and they should not be painted as such. They can be defensive, at times, but being defensive is a natural consequence when aggressors are attacking you and saying you should not exist and should not exist in the game.
Much like equating sexual identity to sexual activity is a common trick utilised by those seeking to be exclusionary to trick folks into inadvertently supporting bigotry, using language to paint the defenders as aggressors is a common rhetorical ju-jitsu that can be quite effective at turning those who just want more inclusivity into the bad guys. I hope that isn’t what you were doing intentionally—but that is what your rhetoric is doing, and you should be more cognisant of that moving forward.
No tricks, just a question. Thanks for answering it.
These are two things that support the ongoing and currently deeply hostile environment in the broader world towards LGBTQ+ folks. Who can also be called SGM (Sexand Gender Minorities).
No being noticed means that folks will generally tend to stick to the default, and unintentionally make spaces and places somewhat hostile or feel unwelcomign to LGBTQ people.
I think that people not noticing the sexuality of their playing groups as tending on one way or another is not really supportive of a hostile environment?
Firstly, unless someone tells you they're gay, how do you know? They don't look different to people who aren't gay, so you can't see it. The idea that they are camp and flambuoyant is a laughable stereotype (There are lots of gay people at the club, none of them are camp) so you can't see it in how they talk or act. Snogging at the table is frowned upon and awkward regardless of who you're snogging, so people just don't do that.
So unless someone actively tells you they're gay, there is no way of knowing that they're gay. I have no reason to ask people their sexual preferences (I will treat them the same regardless of their answer), so I don't ask. Plus, I consider it awkward and inapproproate if anyone tells me their sexuality explicitly (IE "Actually, I'm straight") because that only matters between two people that are romantically involved with each other, and I'm taken, so I don't appreciate the insinuation that it could matter to me.
I have also noticed no difference in peoples roleplaying or actions at the table based on this. 95% of the time at the D&D table is spent immersed in D&D. So here's a test for you, to see if you notice:
A heroic son of thor who uses lightning powers, artificer-paladin variant human (going Aasimar at their next ASI, as agreed) A shadar-kai warlock of the raven queen, Pact of the Chain, who likes bugs and is a chaos gremlin. A werebear barbarian half-orc, who is obsessed with becoming stronger (already str 20) A Life Cleric Dwarf with a pony, who is generally non-hostile, unless the pony gets hurt. An Ascendant Dragon Elf Monk who aims to bring dragons back to the world, and who is finding themselves.
This is what matters at the table - by being invited to the table, the players know that we are all friends and enjoy each others company, so there's no need to treat any of them differently.
Can you pick out which of these are the characters of gay players?
I beg to differ. Not noticing, and not caring, is the only way in which I can treat everyone the same. There quite simply isn't any other path available. It's the only morally sound choice to make. It just happens to sound bad. We like for others to notice us, to care about us. Truth is, we don't. The the world can be divided into a few categories:
Friends and family - people we notice by default and care about deeply
Colleagues and acquaintances - people we notice when there's a reason, and care very peripherally about
Absolutely everyone else in the world - people we only care about in terms of statistics or emotional **** on news sites
Please note I'm not trying to tell anyone how they feel - or should feel - about anything. I'm making an observation which (obviously) I think is true for most people, but conceivably not for all. The point is that the politest thing, the most politically correct and the most conscientious thing to do for people in the world is to simply not give a damn about them and their choices and/or troubles - unless you have an actual reason to do so.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I beg to differ. Not noticing, and not caring, is the only way in which I can treat everyone the same. There quite simply isn't any other path available. It's the only morally sound choice to make. It just happens to sound bad. We like for others to notice us, to care about us. Truth is, we don't. The the world can be divided into a few categories:
Friends and family - people we notice by default and care about deeply
Colleagues and acquaintances - people we notice when there's a reason, and care very peripherally about
Absolutely everyone else in the world - people we only care about in terms of statistics or emotional **** on news sites
Please note I'm not trying to tell anyone how they feel - or should feel - about anything. I'm making an observation which (obviously) I think is true for most people, but conceivably not for all. The point is that the politest thing, the most politically correct and the most conscientious thing to do for people in the world is to simply not give a damn about them and their choices and/or troubles - unless you have an actual reason to do so.
[REDACTED]
I believe what AEDorsay may have been trying to say (and forgive me if this is off base AE), is that everyone notices to a certain extent the differences in people around them, and that does have an effect on how they relate to them. Humans tend to make sense of the complex world around them by placing things in categories and giving them labels, and I believe that someone simply stating that they are immune to the ingrained prejudices that come along with this is being disingenuous.
I will admit that having grown up in the 70s, I may have more baggage about stereotyping various groups than folks from younger generations, since most people back then (including myself) did not recognize how damaging the way we spoke and acted was to marginalized groups. For my part, I have to consciously combat the fifty-some years of preconceptions I have developed when interacting with people, and I know that I fall short many times. Due to the overwhelming amount of biased information that people are exposed to through life and the media, I don't really think that anyone can completely avoid internalizing some of it. I believe that everyone being aware of our own preconceptions is the only way that we can actually make the proper efforts to create an inclusive atmosphere whether in gaming or in life in general.
Not every D&D game needs to contain sexual or relationship-oriented content, heteronormative or otherwise. But Baldur's Gate 3 proves that including such content can still make for a very positive and well-received experience that is quintessentially D&D. So long as the game is designed to be appropriately inclusive, and everyone at the table gives informed and enthusiastic consent (and it should really go without saying that children cannot give informed and enthusiastic consent), then the game design has done its job.
I am curious as to whether anyone feels the "exploring yourself" side of D&D was appealing, particularly those who were/are unsure of their identity. I've heard it mentioned many times, that you can roleplay anything so it's a "safe" method of exploring such things, but is that true, or just assumptions being made?
While not personally something I feel the need to do, I have DMed for multiple people who do use their D&D persona to either explore a personality trait in their own identity they have not explored before or because it lets them express a part of their personality they are very much aware of, but nervous to explore in the real world. These players regularly will let me know that is what they are doing, and express their gratitude that the game provides them that opportunity.
Somewhat interestingly, the therapeutic elements of D&D are also getting more traction among psychological research, and there is data suggesting D&D can provide mental health benefits, but as a game and if used as a more intensive version of play therapy.
Given both my own experiences and rising literature on the subject, I think it is pretty fair to say that D&D can be a safe place to explore oneself—provided you are not playing with the kind of people who would make the game unsafe.
Just going to make this real clear, so the folks in the back can here.
D&D Beyond will not tolerate nor entertain, here on the forums or anywhere else, that there is any form of "debate" about LGBTQIA+ community. Peoples existence is not a matter for debate and D&D is for everyone*.
If you feel the need to question, debate, ponder, or quizzically wonder about the validity of queer folk and their right to exist in this community, you can keep that nonsense to yourself.
Neither I, nor any other moderator, will tolerate that garbage.
I deleted my post that I wrote while you wrote yours on seeing yours.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
To answer the question in the OP - my queer friends and I love D&D because tabletop roleplaying allows for unparalleled expression and exploration. Many queer people don't have a laser-accurate bead on their identity initially; some take years to find who and what they are, some never, and for some it is fluid and ever-changing. Roleplay is not only a safe space to explore these kinds of thoughts and feelings, it's an inherently fun one too.
There's also the underlying message of D&D - that a band of misfits with diverse backgrounds can be thrown together by fate and become a found/chosen family capable of beating the odds to achieve anything. It shouldn't be difficult to see why that resonates with queer people from all walks of life, cultural origin, and social strata.
To answer the question in the OP - my queer friends and I love D&D because tabletop roleplaying allows for unparalleled expression and exploration. Many queer people don't have a laser-accurate bead on their identity initially; some take years to find who and what they are, some never, and for some it is fluid and ever-changing. Roleplay is not only a safe space to explore these kinds of thoughts and feelings, it's an inherently fun one too.
There's also the underlying message of D&D - that a band of misfits with diverse backgrounds can be thrown together by fate and become a found/chosen family capable of beating the odds to achieve anything. It shouldn't be difficult to see why that resonates with queer people from all walks of life, cultural origin, and social strata.
To answer the question in the OP - my queer friends and I love D&D because tabletop roleplaying allows for unparalleled expression and exploration. Many queer people don't have a laser-accurate bead on their identity initially; some take years to find who and what they are, some never, and for some it is fluid and ever-changing. Roleplay is not only a safe space to explore these kinds of thoughts and feelings, it's an inherently fun one too.
There's also the underlying message of D&D - that a band of misfits with diverse backgrounds can be thrown together by fate and become a found/chosen family capable of beating the odds to achieve anything. It shouldn't be difficult to see why that resonates with queer people from all walks of life, cultural origin, and social strata.
never thought of it like that but i guess your spot on &d may allow for someone to be who they truely are without fear of judgement and let them open up to people with a common intrest of the game
We all play different characters, have a variety of different personalities to go with, and in general tend to have fun.
I would argue since DnD has recently exploded in recent years there might be a bit of an accent on the roleplay portion than there used to be (granted it's always been there but I would argue that it has a stronger focus now than it used to) and allowing that can strike a chord with the LGBTQ community which is why there is pool of them who play and are interested in the game.
I'm not sure the lords of hella would appreciate the sentement though lol
Just teasing, just teasing.
I am honestly surprised that being gay is still even commented on. I mean really, in this day and age. It makes me almost sad that people still want to put others into boxes based upon their sexuality or gender.
That is such a 50s attitude that needs to stop and at my tables everyone is welcome.no matter who they are. Being gay or being anything just isn't seen as an issue because we are all the same - we are all just people.
Messy,.complicated, lovely people.
Who cares if your gay or bisexual or transgender or any of the other more recent little little boxes - pansexual, gender fluid or whatever.
What matters is being a good person and not what you identify as or who you are in a relationship with.
@TWForgeCleric You're correct that the world is more educated and inclusive nowadays. We've come a long way. But there is also a long way to go before the LGBTQIAN+ community actually has equal rights to allocishets.
Bigotry still exists. Homophobia, transphobia, aphobia, etc. are still VERY real. So yeah, people do care. Orientation and gender shouldn't matter. But they do.
Don't get me wrong, I admire that you treat all people the exact same way, regardless. We are all people. As you put it, "Messy, complicated, lovely people."
It's just that while these things do not matter at the D&D table, and they do not affect someone's personality or amiability, they matter very much in the real world. Unfortunately, for many queer people, bigotry is a big part of our lives.
Just so my message is clear, I do NOT in any way condone putting people into boxes. I just think that bigotry should not be ignored. Acting as if "no one cares about that anymore" is doing just that, because, no matter how much it sucks, people DO care.
(TW for next sentence)
I mean, they care enough to bully, assault, and murder LGBTQIAN+ individuals.
While in most ways being queer doesn't matter (personality, intelligence, D&D playing, etc...), It unfortunately does matter, because we are still being discriminated against.
In most contexts, your statement is true. We are all still people. Really all I'm trying to say with this long reply is that using phrases like "Sexuality/gender doesn't matter" TOO generally implies that bigotry against queer people no longer exists, and that is simply not true.
And finally, thank you for being inclusive. While discrimination is still real, it's accepting people like you who are helping change that.
In addition to what Nat_30 says, because there is still societal oppression against LGBTQIA* folks (particularly trans/intersex individuals, since lesbian, gay, and to a lesser extent bisexual, people have been somewhat accepted by society) it's important for folks to develop queer communities and talk about their identities with one another and with folks who aren't LGBTQ to gain potential allies. I always bristle a little when someone says something like "well why does it even matter?" or "why do we even have to talk about it?" The reason it matters is that people are still getting beat up and killed for being gay and/or trans, people are being denied basic rights, etc. It's like when someone says "race doesn't matter." Well, actually, it does matter, because racism is a real thing that exists and not talking about race doesn't make it go away.
I don't mean to get all serious but it seems to kind of keep coming up. I think that "I just see you as a human" is great in theory, but I'd rather it be "I see you as a human, and all of the aspects of your identity are valid and important in making you who you are and I will treat you with dignity" is better.
I 100% agree. This is the point I've been trying to make, but I think you explained it better. :)
These are two things that support the ongoing and currently deeply hostile environment in the broader world towards LGBTQ+ folks. Who can also be called SGM (Sexand Gender Minorities).
No being noticed means that folks will generally tend to stick to the default, and unintentionally make spaces and places somewhat hostile or feel unwelcomign to LGBTQ people.
It also feeds into the way that some folks tend to conflate Sexually Explicit stuff with being LGBTQ+. The two are not only not the same, they are completely unrelated. If the first thing you think of is someone having sex when people introduce LGBTQ+ things, you are part of the problem, dead stop.
If you have openly LGBTQ folks -- and, right now, especially if you have openly Trans and gender Diverse folks, at your table and in your session, be aware that they are suggesting that they have at least some trust in you that you will not make them feel unwelcome or less than.
And you should notice, and you should take some time to make sure that their joy is as great as your own.
Shouldn't this apply to everyone at every table not just one group?
I have played several games at mostly LGB tables that were very fun and inclusive, I have also noped out 20 minutes into session 0 that had nothing to do with LGB.
Not every table or game is for everyone the key is communication not forced inclusivity.
@kayakingpoodle I'm not sure if it's on purpose or not, but please don't just say "LGB". It's the terminology used in the incredibly transphobic "Drop the T" movement, and is associated with the also transphobic LGB Alliance. At the very least, please use LGBT, or better yet something more inclusive like LGBTQIA or something similar.
I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU OF BEING A TRANSPHOBE, and in fact you're probably not, I'm just pointing out that LGB is often used to deliberately exclude trans* people and I want to let you know that using that specific acronym does come off as transphobic.
If you've read to the bottom and are reading this part of my message, I am going to assume you are not a transphobe, and just didn't know which terminology to use, in which case, thank you for reading and have a great day.
This is interesting. I was unaware that the US had such a big problem with this kind of thing and I wonder if there are wider cultural issues that are not the root cause of the things you talk about but either way; I will admit, I am somewhat confused and I am honestly not sure why you say things like:
I always bristle a little when someone says something like "well why does it even matter?" or "why do we even have to talk about it?"
I am confused because a persons sexuality or preferred or chosen gender or even lack of any sexuality or gender, really doesn't matter to me. They are still a person regardless and a person is a person. Suggesting that they are treated differently because of some aspect of their identity is rather absurd to me. From my perspective, if I am friends with someone who identifies differently to myself, then how they identify really does make no difference and I treat them no differently to any of the people I love or care about.
Even I they are just passing strangers who have come to my D&D session - how they identify still does not matter to me and I treat them no differently to how I treat any other person I might meet in this or any other circumstance. I treat them like a person.
As to your other point - talking about it. Why would anybody; regardless of how they identify, need to talk about their view of self anymore than is necessary. If someone is gay or lesbian for example and they are talking about their boyfriend or girlfriend then I would expect them to say "my boyfriend" or "my girlfriend" (or husband and wife as the case may be) just like any heterosexual person would. There is no need to enter into some big discussion about how they are gay or lesbian and the same is true for those who identify as a different gender or have no specific gender but prefer a particular pronoun.
If I say he or she for example and I have referred to the person with the incorrect pronoun, I would expect to be corrected. I would expect the person or the people I was talking to, to say actually I/they are male or female - as the case maybe and then I will correct my pronouns in the future. There is no need to delve into some big deep conversation because Ii just doesn't matter. It doesn't make that person any less than a person and it doesn't change my attitudes towards or opinions of them.
When you talk about people getting assaulted or murdered or whatever, then we have laws in our society that say those things are wrong. They are not wrong based on sexuality or gender or the lack there of, they are just wrong because its wrong to assault or murder anybody - it doesn't matter who they are.
I can only speak for myself but I personally think if everyone took this approach, there would be no issue. No it might not correct the problem right now but in time, as new generations are exposed to such attitudes or opinions, things would change. As they have already begun to do. Neverwinter was not built in a day - it takes time for any great and worthy thing to gain permanence in this world.
Ugh I think this is getting to complex for a forum discussion. Especially since I have pretty much diverged quite a bit from the original intent of the discussion. So maybe I should just end this off here and pray to Pelor that you understand what I have been rambling about LOL.
PS: I know you were not addressing me personally in you reply. I have just spoken as myself because I am the only person whom I can truly and accurately represent. Or at least try to anyway LOL.
First off, you mentioned being confused at the statement that you quoted, so I will explain. People say things like this not because they believe that being queer changes anything about a person, because a gay/mspec, trans*, or acespec/arospec person is still just as kind, intelligent, funny, friendly, brave, and amazing as they would be if they were straight, cisgender, and allosexual/alloromantic. In other words, they are the same person as they would be if they weren't queer.
Rather, when people talk about how it DOES matter, it's a reference to discrimination. The ONLY reason that gender/orientation matter and should be discussed, is because homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, and aphobia, are still problems, and are dangerous to the people these prejudiced beliefs are targeting.
That's why it matters. Not because being queer changes who someone is, but because, unfortunately, it affects our lives. I hope I've answered any questions you have.
And finally, thank you for being so tolerant and welcoming to people who are different to yourself. While bigotry is a real threat right now, it's inclusive folks like you who are helping to create a more accepting and welcoming society. I hope you have a great day. :D
Some observations:
These are two things that support the ongoing and currently deeply hostile environment in the broader world towards LGBTQ+ folks. Who can also be called SGM (Sexand Gender Minorities).
No being noticed means that folks will generally tend to stick to the default, and unintentionally make spaces and places somewhat hostile or feel unwelcomign to LGBTQ people.
It also feeds into the way that some folks tend to conflate Sexually Explicit stuff with being LGBTQ+. The two are not only not the same, they are completely unrelated. If the first thing you think of is someone having sex when people introduce LGBTQ+ things, you are part of the problem, dead stop.
If you have openly LGBTQ folks -- and, right now, especially if you have openly Trans and gender Diverse folks, at your table and in your session, be aware that they are suggesting that they have at least some trust in you that you will not make them feel unwelcome or less than.
And you should notice, and you should take some time to make sure that their joy is as great as your own.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Shouldn't this apply to everyone at every table not just one group?
I have played several games at mostly LGB tables that were very fun and inclusive, I have also noped out 20 minutes into session 0 that had nothing to do with LGB.
Not every table or game is for everyone the key is communication not forced inclusivity.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
This is true if done well, but one should be careful to avoid using stereotypes as a way to feign diversity. Your example borders on stereotyping—the common and completely false idea that gay men are “less alpha male” than straight men might be. A better example—a gay NPC might act differently toward a same-sex character whom they find attractive, being more willing to cut deals or provide information (same goes for any other orientation).
This thread is about LGBT+ players in D&D, that is why it is the only group being discussed. Other groups, of course, should be respected—but that is not the topic of this thread.
I also take issue with your “forced inclusivity” language. Using the word “forced” implies that the group wanting greater inclusivity, wanting the removal of Gygax’s exclusionary elements, wanting stories that appeal to a wider audience are aggressors. They are not the aggressors, they are not the problem, and they should not be painted as such. They can be defensive, at times, but being defensive is a natural consequence when aggressors are attacking you and saying you should not exist and should not exist in the game.
Much like equating sexual identity to sexual activity is a common trick utilised by those seeking to be exclusionary to trick folks into inadvertently supporting bigotry, using language to paint the defenders as aggressors is a common rhetorical ju-jitsu that can be quite effective at turning those who just want more inclusivity into the bad guys. I hope that isn’t what you were doing intentionally—but that is what your rhetoric is doing, and you should be more cognisant of that moving forward.
No tricks, just a question. Thanks for answering it.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I think that people not noticing the sexuality of their playing groups as tending on one way or another is not really supportive of a hostile environment?
Firstly, unless someone tells you they're gay, how do you know? They don't look different to people who aren't gay, so you can't see it. The idea that they are camp and flambuoyant is a laughable stereotype (There are lots of gay people at the club, none of them are camp) so you can't see it in how they talk or act. Snogging at the table is frowned upon and awkward regardless of who you're snogging, so people just don't do that.
So unless someone actively tells you they're gay, there is no way of knowing that they're gay. I have no reason to ask people their sexual preferences (I will treat them the same regardless of their answer), so I don't ask. Plus, I consider it awkward and inapproproate if anyone tells me their sexuality explicitly (IE "Actually, I'm straight") because that only matters between two people that are romantically involved with each other, and I'm taken, so I don't appreciate the insinuation that it could matter to me.
I have also noticed no difference in peoples roleplaying or actions at the table based on this. 95% of the time at the D&D table is spent immersed in D&D. So here's a test for you, to see if you notice:
A heroic son of thor who uses lightning powers, artificer-paladin variant human (going Aasimar at their next ASI, as agreed)
A shadar-kai warlock of the raven queen, Pact of the Chain, who likes bugs and is a chaos gremlin.
A werebear barbarian half-orc, who is obsessed with becoming stronger (already str 20)
A Life Cleric Dwarf with a pony, who is generally non-hostile, unless the pony gets hurt.
An Ascendant Dragon Elf Monk who aims to bring dragons back to the world, and who is finding themselves.
This is what matters at the table - by being invited to the table, the players know that we are all friends and enjoy each others company, so there's no need to treat any of them differently.
Can you pick out which of these are the characters of gay players?
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I beg to differ. Not noticing, and not caring, is the only way in which I can treat everyone the same. There quite simply isn't any other path available. It's the only morally sound choice to make. It just happens to sound bad. We like for others to notice us, to care about us. Truth is, we don't. The the world can be divided into a few categories:
Please note I'm not trying to tell anyone how they feel - or should feel - about anything. I'm making an observation which (obviously) I think is true for most people, but conceivably not for all. The point is that the politest thing, the most politically correct and the most conscientious thing to do for people in the world is to simply not give a damn about them and their choices and/or troubles - unless you have an actual reason to do so.
[REDACTED]
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Let's keep things on the topic of D&D please
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I believe what AEDorsay may have been trying to say (and forgive me if this is off base AE), is that everyone notices to a certain extent the differences in people around them, and that does have an effect on how they relate to them. Humans tend to make sense of the complex world around them by placing things in categories and giving them labels, and I believe that someone simply stating that they are immune to the ingrained prejudices that come along with this is being disingenuous.
I will admit that having grown up in the 70s, I may have more baggage about stereotyping various groups than folks from younger generations, since most people back then (including myself) did not recognize how damaging the way we spoke and acted was to marginalized groups. For my part, I have to consciously combat the fifty-some years of preconceptions I have developed when interacting with people, and I know that I fall short many times. Due to the overwhelming amount of biased information that people are exposed to through life and the media, I don't really think that anyone can completely avoid internalizing some of it. I believe that everyone being aware of our own preconceptions is the only way that we can actually make the proper efforts to create an inclusive atmosphere whether in gaming or in life in general.
Not every D&D game needs to contain sexual or relationship-oriented content, heteronormative or otherwise. But Baldur's Gate 3 proves that including such content can still make for a very positive and well-received experience that is quintessentially D&D. So long as the game is designed to be appropriately inclusive, and everyone at the table gives informed and enthusiastic consent (and it should really go without saying that children cannot give informed and enthusiastic consent), then the game design has done its job.
While not personally something I feel the need to do, I have DMed for multiple people who do use their D&D persona to either explore a personality trait in their own identity they have not explored before or because it lets them express a part of their personality they are very much aware of, but nervous to explore in the real world. These players regularly will let me know that is what they are doing, and express their gratitude that the game provides them that opportunity.
Somewhat interestingly, the therapeutic elements of D&D are also getting more traction among psychological research, and there is data suggesting D&D can provide mental health benefits, but as a game and if used as a more intensive version of play therapy.
Given both my own experiences and rising literature on the subject, I think it is pretty fair to say that D&D can be a safe place to explore oneself—provided you are not playing with the kind of people who would make the game unsafe.
Just going to make this real clear, so the folks in the back can here.
D&D Beyond will not tolerate nor entertain, here on the forums or anywhere else, that there is any form of "debate" about LGBTQIA+ community. Peoples existence is not a matter for debate and D&D is for everyone*.
If you feel the need to question, debate, ponder, or quizzically wonder about the validity of queer folk and their right to exist in this community, you can keep that nonsense to yourself.
Neither I, nor any other moderator, will tolerate that garbage.
Now back to discussing D&D.
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Davyd, thank you.
I deleted my post that I wrote while you wrote yours on seeing yours.
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Thanks Davyd!
To answer the question in the OP - my queer friends and I love D&D because tabletop roleplaying allows for unparalleled expression and exploration. Many queer people don't have a laser-accurate bead on their identity initially; some take years to find who and what they are, some never, and for some it is fluid and ever-changing. Roleplay is not only a safe space to explore these kinds of thoughts and feelings, it's an inherently fun one too.
There's also the underlying message of D&D - that a band of misfits with diverse backgrounds can be thrown together by fate and become a found/chosen family capable of beating the odds to achieve anything. It shouldn't be difficult to see why that resonates with queer people from all walks of life, cultural origin, and social strata.
That... I... wow! That pretty much nails it.
never thought of it like that but i guess your spot on &d may allow for someone to be who they truely are without fear of judgement and let them open up to people with a common intrest of the game
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
Two of the six of my group are LGBTQ.
We all play different characters, have a variety of different personalities to go with, and in general tend to have fun.
I would argue since DnD has recently exploded in recent years there might be a bit of an accent on the roleplay portion than there used to be (granted it's always been there but I would argue that it has a stronger focus now than it used to) and allowing that can strike a chord with the LGBTQ community which is why there is pool of them who play and are interested in the game.
@TWForgeCleric You're correct that the world is more educated and inclusive nowadays. We've come a long way. But there is also a long way to go before the LGBTQIAN+ community actually has equal rights to allocishets.
Bigotry still exists. Homophobia, transphobia, aphobia, etc. are still VERY real. So yeah, people do care. Orientation and gender shouldn't matter. But they do.
Don't get me wrong, I admire that you treat all people the exact same way, regardless. We are all people. As you put it, "Messy, complicated, lovely people."
It's just that while these things do not matter at the D&D table, and they do not affect someone's personality or amiability, they matter very much in the real world. Unfortunately, for many queer people, bigotry is a big part of our lives.
Just so my message is clear, I do NOT in any way condone putting people into boxes. I just think that bigotry should not be ignored. Acting as if "no one cares about that anymore" is doing just that, because, no matter how much it sucks, people DO care.
(TW for next sentence)
I mean, they care enough to bully, assault, and murder LGBTQIAN+ individuals.
While in most ways being queer doesn't matter (personality, intelligence, D&D playing, etc...), It unfortunately does matter, because we are still being discriminated against.
In most contexts, your statement is true. We are all still people. Really all I'm trying to say with this long reply is that using phrases like "Sexuality/gender doesn't matter" TOO generally implies that bigotry against queer people no longer exists, and that is simply not true.
And finally, thank you for being inclusive. While discrimination is still real, it's accepting people like you who are helping change that.
I 100% agree. This is the point I've been trying to make, but I think you explained it better. :)
@kayakingpoodle I'm not sure if it's on purpose or not, but please don't just say "LGB". It's the terminology used in the incredibly transphobic "Drop the T" movement, and is associated with the also transphobic LGB Alliance. At the very least, please use LGBT, or better yet something more inclusive like LGBTQIA or something similar.
I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU OF BEING A TRANSPHOBE, and in fact you're probably not, I'm just pointing out that LGB is often used to deliberately exclude trans* people and I want to let you know that using that specific acronym does come off as transphobic.
If you've read to the bottom and are reading this part of my message, I am going to assume you are not a transphobe, and just didn't know which terminology to use, in which case, thank you for reading and have a great day.
First off, you mentioned being confused at the statement that you quoted, so I will explain. People say things like this not because they believe that being queer changes anything about a person, because a gay/mspec, trans*, or acespec/arospec person is still just as kind, intelligent, funny, friendly, brave, and amazing as they would be if they were straight, cisgender, and allosexual/alloromantic. In other words, they are the same person as they would be if they weren't queer.
Rather, when people talk about how it DOES matter, it's a reference to discrimination. The ONLY reason that gender/orientation matter and should be discussed, is because homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, and aphobia, are still problems, and are dangerous to the people these prejudiced beliefs are targeting.
That's why it matters. Not because being queer changes who someone is, but because, unfortunately, it affects our lives. I hope I've answered any questions you have.
And finally, thank you for being so tolerant and welcoming to people who are different to yourself. While bigotry is a real threat right now, it's inclusive folks like you who are helping to create a more accepting and welcoming society. I hope you have a great day. :D