How would you like your pizza sliced, 8 or 12 slices?
12,it's more than 8!!!
Let me introduce to you the way orcs were distinguished in other editions
AD&D: orcs fill the '1 HD' slot, between the "1-1 HD' slot for goblins and the '1+1 HD' slot for hobgoblins. They were otherwise largely indistinguishable. If you wanted higher level and more distinctive orcs, you built them as PCs.
D&D 3e: they provide a prefab "orc warrior", which is just adding the orc template to a level 1 Warrior (NPC class). If you wanted higher level and more distinctive orcs, you built them as PCs.
D&D 4e: orcs had 7 monster manual entries. On the other hand, humans had 6, so they just had a different philosophy. However, the DM or adventure creator was more or less forced to homebrew if they wanted higher level adversaries (creating new monsters was pretty easy in 4e, so pretty much every adventure contained a handful of custom new critters).
D&D 5e (2014): orcs had 3 MM entries, If you wanted higher level and more distinctive orcs, you used the DMG rules to add 'orc' to an NPC template, or you used the monster creation rules.
D&D 5e (2024): Those three MM entries are gone; you're expected to apply 'orc' to an NPC template, though unlike 2014, the rules don't tell you how to do so.
Wait so you prefer the 2014 one that had less monster stat blocks and less npc's and less options for orcs, and drow and the rest?
For the food analogy it is like we went from the 15" pizza to the 20" pizza and we are upset because they cut the 20" into squares and somehow everyone believes that makes the 20" smaller and it doesn't. It is still more.
But it literally DOESN'T have more monster diversity. More stat blocks means more diversity. More NPC stat blocks means more diversity and more options NPC's ARE MONSTERS otherwise they wouldn't be in the monster manual. More stat blocks literally means more options. Your analogy is just false and doesn't fit what is being provided nor does your complaint.
I will take the extra 150 monsters, the ability to actually have the encounters be balanced to the difficulty they say on the tin if I use the encounter building rules in the DMG, which is WAY easier for a new player or GM to run, and more than just dragons, demons and the tarrasque as options for high level play to allow for a more diverse options for my players to face at all levels. Just because you are used to it does not mean it is new player friendly. That is just a false statement.
The disconnect seems to be experience with the game, the new rules seem to be an advanced D&D, not a beginners D&D compared to the 14(OG) vs the 24 (advanced) D&D. So much for including everyone that bout in.
But they are playing at lower levels (which many of the lower CR monsters have had their damage reduced making low level deaths less likely) you can actually follow the encounter building rules and get what's expected which new players, no matter what level they play at, will benefit from. Not to mention there are STILL more options at lower levels with things like the goblin minion, the sphinx of wonder and many many more. Outlier builds in damage have been toned down making things more predictable and less likely to derail things. It is easier to have veteran players and new players at the same table without the new players feeling like they aren't contributing as much because of how they "built". 2024 is better for both new players AND veterans alike. Providing veterans with more options and new players with less "trap options" and new DM's with actual advice on how to run the game that is reliable and will actually work as intended and as it says it does for both veteran and new players. Just because you are more familiar with the 2014 MM does not mean it is better for newer players. Just because you are a veteran with 2014 and know how to work around its bad encounter builder does not mean it has better encounter building it doesn't. Just because YOU are more familiar with 2014 does not make it more new user friendly, it isn't. I had this same argument with someone who thought 3.5 was easier or more new player friendly than 5e, it isn't.
When you say you prefer 2014, I get confused because you are saying I prefer less options for play and a bunch of tools that don't work or do as advertised.
It's not about the math, it is about the immersion for the new players be they players or more importantly DM's, especially the one's without the creativity some here seem to think is natural, plenty of groups have a DM that lacks the creativity many here have, yet without them the group suffers, the old descriptions were far superior to the new ones for this group. [Redacted]
Immersion is going to happen in any TTRPG regardless of the system. The DMG has hints for that. This MM has titles + art work that better portrays the monsters to give hints as to what they are. If you want a specific setting get a source book, that isn't new to TTRPG's hell that isn't new to D&D, strix haven, dragon lance just as examples. The players and the DM create the immersion as much or as little as they want and there is nothing in the new books that inherently reduces someone's immersion in comparison to the 2014. That is why they added so much art because a picture is worth a thousand words and people are going to be immersed more by a picture than an extra paragraph.
The math is an important part of the game. It is the GAME part of the game, if you just want lore just read a book. New players need the math and the system to work they don't need 4 paragraphs of lore when 1 will do.
Right and the immersion is going to be there regardless. The 2024 books didn't reduce new player immersion. It will reduce new player frustration. Frustration and confusion ends games and makes people not play anymore. Immersion comes from an inspired story. More art, better tips for the DM, and more monsters to get inspired by leads to BETTER immersion. less confusion or math issues means less removal from immersion.
For new and less creative DM's the lore(that has been removed from the MM 2014 vs 2024) is substantial for those new to the game, the more experienced players (DM's) are seemingly blind to this, the transition from the free rules to buying into the core 3 is very disappointing for those of us that are straddling the rule sets. It is compounded by the way wotc chose to implement it on this website, confusion is real and distracting. The whole rollout ruins immersion at the table for newbies using DDB. [Redacted]
For new and less creative DM's the lore(that has been removed from the MM 2014 vs 2024) is substantial for those new to the game, the more experienced players (DM's) are seemingly blind to this.
I remember being a new DM -- not in this edition, but the concept is the same. I absolutely did not care about the lore, I was just looking for something cool for my PCs to beat up. I only started caring about lore after I had considerable experience and started trying to come up with adventures with an actual interesting plot, at which point I would look through lore... and generally need to throw out half of it because I wanted to use a given monster in a particular way and the lore contradicted my desires so it had to go.
For new and less creative DM's the lore(that has been removed from the MM 2014 vs 2024) is substantial for those new to the game, the more experienced players (DM's) are seemingly blind to this.
I remember being a new DM -- not in this edition, but the concept is the same. I absolutely did not care about the lore, I was just looking for something cool for my PCs to beat up. I only started caring about lore after I had considerable experience and started trying to come up with adventures with an actual interesting plot, at which point I would look through lore... and generally need to throw out half of it because I wanted to use a given monster in a particular way and the lore contradicted my desires so it had to go.
This. Completely this. For every DM, the world they run is their world. This is true whether they are using a setting book, running something completely original, or any combination thereof.
The lore, etc, are there for those who find those ideas cool to build on but are not and should not be considered in any way binding. Nor are they especially necessary, simply because that world is that DM's world, not the lore writer's world, no matter how much it might be influenced by or inspired by any 'official' lore.
I am reading the DMG right now. It has setting ideas, it has hook ideas, it has ideas for lore and ways to build your own if you wish. The lore isn't removed the fat is just trimmed down so that new DM's aren't SHACKLED by the lore. There are more monsters to be inspired by, more settings to be inspired by and the lore that is there helps inform a new player or new DM how to use it. You are an experienced player and sound like an experienced DM. I can say from when I first started 1 I didn't care about the lore and 2 I WISH I had the 2024 DMG and the 2024 MM when I started out. It would have saved A LOT of head ache and a lot of frustration with my monster encounters being all over the place. Social encounters, exploration, skill checks and skill challenges were easy to understand and balance. Lore was easy to make, immersion was easy to understand, but getting the balance right and making the BBEG feel like a threat was a pain in the rear and was a lot of trial and error before I got it. The 2024 books will be easier to use for MOST new players and MOST new DM's. I would almost be willing to bet that you are probably more experienced in DnD than I am. The new 2024 books aren't gate keeping new players or DM's it is much more inviting than the 2014 was. I am really glad that chapter 1 of the DMG is the basics and chapter 2 is running the game now compared to 2014 which was lets start with building an entire multiverse.
Locking this thread as it's just turning into giant reply chains and circular discussion.
Reminding again:
There are no individual stat blocks for each and every type of humanoid version of Bandit, Cultist so on. Instead we have this instruction in 'How to Use a Monster':
Versatile Groups. Nonplayer characters now appear alongside other monsters and can represent individuals of any Humanoid species.
And in Monster conversions they have guidelines on which statblock to use for the 2014 specific humanoid ones such as:
You use the generic statblock and can give traits representing a species if you like, such as dark vision or a species trait. Our new video also goes into this.
Let me introduce to you the way orcs were distinguished in other editions
Disagreeing with design decisions is not 'undercooked'. It's just a matter of taste.
[Reply chain]
Wait so you prefer the 2014 one that had less monster stat blocks and less npc's and less options for orcs, and drow and the rest?
For the food analogy it is like we went from the 15" pizza to the 20" pizza and we are upset because they cut the 20" into squares and somehow everyone believes that makes the 20" smaller and it doesn't. It is still more.
[Redacted, reply chain]
But it literally DOESN'T have more monster diversity. More stat blocks means more diversity. More NPC stat blocks means more diversity and more options NPC's ARE MONSTERS otherwise they wouldn't be in the monster manual. More stat blocks literally means more options. Your analogy is just false and doesn't fit what is being provided nor does your complaint.
[Redacted, reply chain]
I 100% prefer the 2014 MM ! It is better in every way that is usable to new users.
[Redacted, reply chain]
I will take the extra 150 monsters, the ability to actually have the encounters be balanced to the difficulty they say on the tin if I use the encounter building rules in the DMG, which is WAY easier for a new player or GM to run, and more than just dragons, demons and the tarrasque as options for high level play to allow for a more diverse options for my players to face at all levels. Just because you are used to it does not mean it is new player friendly. That is just a false statement.
[Redacted, reply chain]
How many NEW users are playing at high levels?
The disconnect seems to be experience with the game, the new rules seem to be an advanced D&D, not a beginners D&D compared to the 14(OG) vs the 24 (advanced) D&D. So much for including everyone that bout in.
[Redacted, reply chain]
But they are playing at lower levels (which many of the lower CR monsters have had their damage reduced making low level deaths less likely) you can actually follow the encounter building rules and get what's expected which new players, no matter what level they play at, will benefit from. Not to mention there are STILL more options at lower levels with things like the goblin minion, the sphinx of wonder and many many more. Outlier builds in damage have been toned down making things more predictable and less likely to derail things. It is easier to have veteran players and new players at the same table without the new players feeling like they aren't contributing as much because of how they "built". 2024 is better for both new players AND veterans alike. Providing veterans with more options and new players with less "trap options" and new DM's with actual advice on how to run the game that is reliable and will actually work as intended and as it says it does for both veteran and new players. Just because you are more familiar with the 2014 MM does not mean it is better for newer players. Just because you are a veteran with 2014 and know how to work around its bad encounter builder does not mean it has better encounter building it doesn't. Just because YOU are more familiar with 2014 does not make it more new user friendly, it isn't. I had this same argument with someone who thought 3.5 was easier or more new player friendly than 5e, it isn't.
When you say you prefer 2014, I get confused because you are saying I prefer less options for play and a bunch of tools that don't work or do as advertised.
[Redacted, reply chain]
It's not about the math, it is about the immersion for the new players be they players or more importantly DM's, especially the one's without the creativity some here seem to think is natural, plenty of groups have a DM that lacks the creativity many here have, yet without them the group suffers, the old descriptions were far superior to the new ones for this group. [Redacted]
[Redacted, reply chain]
Immersion is going to happen in any TTRPG regardless of the system. The DMG has hints for that. This MM has titles + art work that better portrays the monsters to give hints as to what they are. If you want a specific setting get a source book, that isn't new to TTRPG's hell that isn't new to D&D, strix haven, dragon lance just as examples. The players and the DM create the immersion as much or as little as they want and there is nothing in the new books that inherently reduces someone's immersion in comparison to the 2014. That is why they added so much art because a picture is worth a thousand words and people are going to be immersed more by a picture than an extra paragraph.
The math is an important part of the game. It is the GAME part of the game, if you just want lore just read a book. New players need the math and the system to work they don't need 4 paragraphs of lore when 1 will do.
[Redacted, reply chain]
Right and the immersion is going to be there regardless. The 2024 books didn't reduce new player immersion. It will reduce new player frustration. Frustration and confusion ends games and makes people not play anymore. Immersion comes from an inspired story. More art, better tips for the DM, and more monsters to get inspired by leads to BETTER immersion. less confusion or math issues means less removal from immersion.
[Redacted, reply chain]
For new and less creative DM's the lore(that has been removed from the MM 2014 vs 2024) is substantial for those new to the game, the more experienced players (DM's) are seemingly blind to this, the transition from the free rules to buying into the core 3 is very disappointing for those of us that are straddling the rule sets. It is compounded by the way wotc chose to implement it on this website, confusion is real and distracting. The whole rollout ruins immersion at the table for newbies using DDB. [Redacted]
I remember being a new DM -- not in this edition, but the concept is the same. I absolutely did not care about the lore, I was just looking for something cool for my PCs to beat up. I only started caring about lore after I had considerable experience and started trying to come up with adventures with an actual interesting plot, at which point I would look through lore... and generally need to throw out half of it because I wanted to use a given monster in a particular way and the lore contradicted my desires so it had to go.
This. Completely this. For every DM, the world they run is their world. This is true whether they are using a setting book, running something completely original, or any combination thereof.
The lore, etc, are there for those who find those ideas cool to build on but are not and should not be considered in any way binding. Nor are they especially necessary, simply because that world is that DM's world, not the lore writer's world, no matter how much it might be influenced by or inspired by any 'official' lore.
[Redacted, Reply chain]
I am reading the DMG right now. It has setting ideas, it has hook ideas, it has ideas for lore and ways to build your own if you wish. The lore isn't removed the fat is just trimmed down so that new DM's aren't SHACKLED by the lore. There are more monsters to be inspired by, more settings to be inspired by and the lore that is there helps inform a new player or new DM how to use it. You are an experienced player and sound like an experienced DM. I can say from when I first started 1 I didn't care about the lore and 2 I WISH I had the 2024 DMG and the 2024 MM when I started out. It would have saved A LOT of head ache and a lot of frustration with my monster encounters being all over the place. Social encounters, exploration, skill checks and skill challenges were easy to understand and balance. Lore was easy to make, immersion was easy to understand, but getting the balance right and making the BBEG feel like a threat was a pain in the rear and was a lot of trial and error before I got it. The 2024 books will be easier to use for MOST new players and MOST new DM's. I would almost be willing to bet that you are probably more experienced in DnD than I am. The new 2024 books aren't gate keeping new players or DM's it is much more inviting than the 2014 was. I am really glad that chapter 1 of the DMG is the basics and chapter 2 is running the game now compared to 2014 which was lets start with building an entire multiverse.
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ModeratorLocking this thread as it's just turning into giant reply chains and circular discussion.
Reminding again:
There are no individual stat blocks for each and every type of humanoid version of Bandit, Cultist so on. Instead we have this instruction in 'How to Use a Monster':
And in Monster conversions they have guidelines on which statblock to use for the 2014 specific humanoid ones such as:
and
You use the generic statblock and can give traits representing a species if you like, such as dark vision or a species trait.
Our new video also goes into this.
D&D Beyond ToS || D&D Beyond Support