So the best selling game is the one no one plays. Yup.
Short answer.. Yeah.. kind of. I mean I think it's an exaggeration to say "no one plays it", even if that is true in my local area. But yeah, compared to 2014, it's shocking how few people are playing 2024. It doesn't match up with the proposed "best-selling D&D of all time", which I will remind you is the exact same thing WotC said about 4th edition. It took about 2 years before D&D fans and supporters of 4th edition were willing to accept that the game was not only doing poorly, but was outright failing as a product. I predict it will be the same with 2024.
Again bringing it back to the OP's topic. The problem with 2024 edition is that it's fundamentally the same game, essentially a reprint. The fact that people buy the product is not surprising at all. When D&D gets a new edition, every D&D fan is going to buy it. But when you realize that playing 2024 is the same as playing 2014 which you have already played the crap out of, essentially you end up in a place where you where before the new edition was launched.
Aka... waiting for a new edition. In the absence of a new edition (or an edition you want to play as the case was with 4th edition and to a degree 2nd edition), you seek out other games.
The success of all of these kick-starters and alternatives to D&D would not be successful if we were in 2014 and Wizards just launched 5th edition as a new game no one has played before. I mean during that period, there was no way to launch a successful alternative to D&D, EVERYONE was on the 5e D&D train.
That is not happening right now, 2024 is not having that impact, in fact, quite to the contrary, its because of the release of 2024 that all of these others games are so successful. They are offering something new and D&D is not currently, nor will offer anything new for many years to come. Its going to be 5th edition for at least another 3-5 years so as a D&D player, if you not excited about continuing to play the same old 5th edition, you are looking at other games and that is precisely what I think is happening right now.
You are correct, there are more people using 2014 rules then 2024 right now. the main reason of that is people do not want to change rules in the middle of a campaign. As campaigns end i beleive we will start seeing an influx of people switching over. Just looking at StartPlaying.games i see more seats for 2024 games then 2014.
I’m not sure “reading the tea leaves” is a step up from doomsaying. And considering how well the new core 3 have sold according to all informed reports, somehow I think the “community” isn’t experiencing the same weather you are. If you don’t enjoy ‘24 that’s fine, but I’ve seen a lot of enthusiasm for various new elements introduced like Bastions and Weapon Mastery.
If by 'informed reports' you mean statements as abstract as 'these are our best selling books ever' ...
The numbers say otherwise.
Not even the PHB hit best seller lists as well as Tasha's did.
Has that even ever happened before?
That is like an edition's Unearthed Arcana outselling the next's PHB.
Not even the PHB hit best seller lists as well as Tasha's did.
That's because the books got reclassified so they don't even show up on the same charts, the people seeing tiny sales for D&D 2024 were looking in the wrong place. Which, sure, could have been intended to hide something, but given that they did it before any of the 2024 books were released, it probably wasn't.
Their rankings on best seller lists say otherwise.
If the 2024 PHB has outsold Tasha's it's because of duplicated hybrid (physical-digital) sales. Which don't give us an accurate indication of how well it has been received.
The PHB for an edition—the baseline for playing the game—shouldn't just 'outsell' a supplement comparable to Unearthed Arcana. It should sell exponentially more.
if the internet is telling the truth - there was no OGL/SRD before wotc acquired dnd so for all the hate it gets for trying to change the OGL, personally am curious where is the love for them creating it to begin with, surely it helped grow the creator community to what it is today (for better or worse)
The OGL was the worst and best thing to ever happen to the industry.
1: it allowed creatives a chance to get their work out to the world and make some money and created New games and content for us all to enjoy.
I do not think they are driving out the "core" audience though. Sure there are a lot of people that claim they hate it, but yet they are still here. People like to complain about things.
There are a lot of people still on Twitter/X despite their constantly complaining about it. Someone's presence isn't synonymous with support.
When you have someone as important to the development of 5E as Mike Mearls sharing the sentiments of those 'complainers' that ain't nothing.
One thing that is important to note too about D&D as a whole and TSR didn't understand this until it was far too late is that D&D isn't a game, its a series of memories immortalized by the books. There is a reason why the OSR exists and its not because old-school D&D was a better-designed game. It's because there is an ownership to the D&D experience. The books themselves are artifacts cherished and coveted by the fans of the game, almost like a high school yearbook, its a real object that acts as a placeholder for all the memories had playing the game.
DnDBeyond and digital data will never replace that human connection we have to the game. DnDBeyond will one day shutdown and all of those digital assets will disappear and the advancement of technology is never going to replace the substantial connection you have to objects like books.
This is why preservation of the tabletop tradition is such an important part of D&D and why Wizards of the Coasts intention to digitize and monetize and turn this role-playing experience into a forgettable technical execution means that they don't understand what this game is and why people play it. They are destroying the future of the game by stepping out from its core fundamentals and I'm a big believer that one day, very soon, people are going to start realizing that technology is not a replacement for the human experience and will start to reject it. We are almost there and you can see the exhaustion in people and the emptiness of the digital age.
Wizards of the Coast when they created 3rd edition seemed to really understand this, the OGL and the sharing of the responsibility of creating for D&D with the community was such a key to all of it and 5th edition, without question one of the best versions of the game ever should be treated like a crown prince. To see it being sold out as a digital product in the name of monetization... makes me sad. It means that, this generation of gamers, is not going to have the same experience as all of the past generations. D&D will be a video game, as forgettable and temporary as all video games are.
At some point physical media will cease to exist, or will be very rare. That is the way the world is moving, weather you like it or not. will it be in our lifetime? possibly. but it will happen.
WotC sees the writing on the wall and are creating way to keep their business model afloat.
Take Barnes and Noble as an example. They say the trend of E-Books happening and they developed a device and digital storefront to sell E-Books and sold the hardware themselves. Boarders didnt and ended up going under.
Gamestop say the rise of digital games and adapted their business model to sell those codes and became the largest distributer for digital games. EB didnt and ended up going under.
Companies that do not pay attention and change with the trends will fail.
Yes, there will probably always be physical copies, but they will be the vast minority of sales and be regulated to limited editions at some point like records and old media is now.
Mearls has gone public with how poorly he sees 2024 doing.
Providing the rather grim numbers for where the books landed and went in subsequent weeks on best seller lists. Compared to Tasha's.
Why would he do that?
Is he 'uninformed' if we are supposed to believe what is 'informed' is the most abstract of statements?
Mearls was laid off in 2023 - he has no internal knowledge of the current sales for 2024. The only tangible information we have on numbers is that they are larger than anything else - show your receipts if you claim something to the contrary, and folks here will probably be able to show you why you (or the folks you're parroting without fact-checking) are misreading the data. Bestseller lists mean very little - especially with major changes both in how Wizards' books are classified (making them not as eligible for certain lists) and the increased push for both digital sales and LGS sales (which also do not submit data to bestsellers lists).
Call me old fashioned, but I am going to trust the Big Four Accounting firm's independent audit on sales data - which is going to be backed up by hard data and a dedication to accuracy in order to preserve a reputation worth more than Hasbro's entire net worth - over what some Youtubers, ex-employees, and forum commenters are saying as they try to make up a narrative out of very different data points.
That's because the books got reclassified so they don't even show up on the same charts, the people seeing tiny sales for D&D 2024 were looking in the wrong place. Which, sure, could have been intended to hide something, but given that they did it before any of the 2024 books were released, it probably wasn't.
Reclassified how? If they have been reclassified to the point they no longer fit into a category that would register on those best seller lists why would they show up at all?
It never occurred to Mike Mearls he might be looking in the wrong place?
Where is the right place? In abstract statements with no numbers to support the claims made in them?
Whether or not Sigil will shut down or not as a result of these layoffs (regardless if they were planned or not) remains to be seen but, in its current state, Sigil is a long way off from being a usable product. It's not going to be made clear what their plan is going to be moving forward for a while I would imagine, but if you look at the big picture, the messaging from WotC about 2024 edition in general has been very misleading.
They proclaimed that 2024 is the best-selling edition of all time for example, but it's crystal clear at this point that there is absolutely no evidence anywhere to support that claim. Not in the Q4 reports, not in the bookscan reports, not in analytics data. Everything we do have available in regards to 2024 sales suggests that it borders on an abysmal failure, quite possibly sales worse than 4e and there is no logical reason at this stage to hide the fact that it's super successful if that was not the case, except one. While you can exaggerate success to customers you can't lie about the numbers to shareholders. The Q4 results had 2024 been as successful as WotC claims, would have the 2024 edition be a major contributor to the financial success of WotC, but D&D is not even mentioned in the Q4 report.... at all. As if 2024 wasn't even released.
It's all speculation of course, but if 2024 is successful, there is no evidence to that fact in hard data and a considerable amount of data to the contrary. These lay-offs may very well be the first in several cost-saving steps to recoup losses on the current edition of the game. It's very disconcerting to see the franchise on such an unstable footing. Some reassurance I think would be in order at this point.
"D&D released the first significant update to 5th Edition since 2014 and closed out the year strong with both the new Players Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide breaking records for the best-selling D&D books ever"
At some point physical media will cease to exist, or will be very rare.
Visit Japan and marvel at the number of stores that still sell LPs and CDs because people here still buy and collect them. Despite the convenience of streaming services, etc.
There is one neighborhood in Tokyo with around 200 bookstores lining its streets. Many cities would not have not that many bookstores. This is one small neighborhood. And bookstores can be found here in every neighborhood. Japan is the world's largest consumer of physical books. And that has not changed despite the prevalence of smartphones or e-books or any tech.
Physical is alive and well and this can be seen if you just step away from a computer from time to time.
At some point physical media will cease to exist, or will be very rare.
Visit Japan and marvel at the number of stores that still sell LPs and CDs because people here still buy and collect them. Despite the convenience of streaming services, etc.
There is one neighborhood in Tokyo with around 200 bookstores lining its streets. Many cities would not have not that many bookstores. This is one small neighborhood. And bookstores can be found here in every neighborhood. Japan is the world's largest consumer of physical books. And that has not changed despite the prevalence of smartphones or e-books or any tech.
Physical is alive an well and this can be seen if you just step away from a computer from time to time.
At some point physical media will cease to exist, or will be very rare.
Visit Japan and marvel at the number of stores that still sell LPs and CDs because people here still buy and collect them. Despite the convenience of streaming services, etc.
There is one neighborhood in Tokyo with around 200 bookstores lining its streets. Many cities would not have not that many bookstores. This is one small neighborhood. And bookstores can be found here in every neighborhood. Japan is the world's largest consumer of physical books. And that has not changed despite the prevalence of smartphones or e-books or any tech.
Physical is alive an well and this can be seen if you just step away from a computer from time to time.
I never said it wasnt alive and well. And yes books are still in print. but that is slowly going away. Though just because it can be found everywhere in one country doesn't speak to the heatlh of an industry as a whole.
I love physical media, I buy it all the time. in all my entertainment, but I also buy digital versions as well. But in time physical media will stop being produced large scale.
That's because the books got reclassified so they don't even show up on the same charts, the people seeing tiny sales for D&D 2024 were looking in the wrong place. Which, sure, could have been intended to hide something, but given that they did it before any of the 2024 books were released, it probably wasn't.
Reclassified how? If they have been reclassified to the point they no longer fit into a category that would register on those best seller lists why would they show up at all?
It never occurred to Mike Mearls he might be looking in the wrong place?
Where is the right place? In abstract statements with no numbers to support the claims made in them?
1. The new D&D Books were reclassified by places like Amazon into "Toys and Games" rather than books. That is a very, very, very different category than Books - and a much, much more competitive category, dominated by things like Lego, Pokemon, crayons, regular playing cards, etc. D&D is big - and making hundreds of millions is big even in the book selling world. But in the greater toy world, where there are billion dollar brands running about? Obviously their best selling ranking is going to be dwarfed by the juggernauts, in a way they were not dwarfed when they were competing with books.
2. He does have a reason to be biased. Conversely, the statement you are trying (badly) to disprove is made by two entities (Wizards and KPMG) where they are required by law to be accurate.
3. There are numbers to support these claims - we do not have access to these numbers, but KPMG did when they performed an independent audit and signed off on Wizards' quarterly reporting.
I get that you are trying to spin a narrative, for whatever reason. But this is a losing argument you are making. Your entire argument essentially boils down to "Please, ignore the fact a Big Four accounting firm (one of the best auditors in the world) looked at the hard data and verified this information - look at my own anecdotal evidence (much of which has been shown to be flawed), and listen to me, even though I am neither an auditor nor have sufficient hard data to support my claims."
You are, of course, free to share your own, personal reasons why you dislike 5.24 - though that might be long on a different thread, as this thread was really more curious about those who do like it. But you cross the line into conspiratorial and to tilting at windmills when you use bad data, lies, and poor reading of facts to try and pretend your anecdotal opinion reflects the majority. It is not really fair to those of us who do like 5.24 - those of us who made 5.24 the best selling set of books in the game's history - to have our opinions summarily dismissed by someone who is choosing their own narrative over the fact of our existence.
Mearls hasn't worked for WoTc in two years. He knows as much as we do.
Then why assert you know better? I imagine he has greater insight into how things work and how well or unwell things are going than people on a forum where they respond to anything negative with 'nu uh.' Two years and things have gone through such a transformation he couldn't possibly know what he is talking about? The man is an expert in his field. He has been hired to be the Executive Producer at Chaosium.
Mearls' no longer being employed at Wizards is irrelevant.
Um... think before you speak? Corporations don't share financial information with ex-employees, so there's no reason someone released in 2023 would have sales data from 2024.
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You are correct, there are more people using 2014 rules then 2024 right now. the main reason of that is people do not want to change rules in the middle of a campaign. As campaigns end i beleive we will start seeing an influx of people switching over. Just looking at StartPlaying.games i see more seats for 2024 games then 2014.
If by 'informed reports' you mean statements as abstract as 'these are our best selling books ever' ...
The numbers say otherwise.
Not even the PHB hit best seller lists as well as Tasha's did.
Has that even ever happened before?
That is like an edition's Unearthed Arcana outselling the next's PHB.
That's because the books got reclassified so they don't even show up on the same charts, the people seeing tiny sales for D&D 2024 were looking in the wrong place. Which, sure, could have been intended to hide something, but given that they did it before any of the 2024 books were released, it probably wasn't.
Mearls has gone public with how poorly he sees 2024 doing.
Providing the rather grim numbers for where the books landed and went in subsequent weeks on best seller lists. Compared to Tasha's.
Why would he do that?
Is he 'uninformed' if we are supposed to believe what is 'informed' is the most abstract of statements?
Their rankings on best seller lists say otherwise.
If the 2024 PHB has outsold Tasha's it's because of duplicated hybrid (physical-digital) sales. Which don't give us an accurate indication of how well it has been received.
The PHB for an edition—the baseline for playing the game—shouldn't just 'outsell' a supplement comparable to Unearthed Arcana. It should sell exponentially more.
The OGL was the worst and best thing to ever happen to the industry.
1: it allowed creatives a chance to get their work out to the world and make some money and created New games and content for us all to enjoy.
2: It created alot of entitled people.
There are a lot of people still on Twitter/X despite their constantly complaining about it. Someone's presence isn't synonymous with support.
When you have someone as important to the development of 5E as Mike Mearls sharing the sentiments of those 'complainers' that ain't nothing.
At some point physical media will cease to exist, or will be very rare. That is the way the world is moving, weather you like it or not. will it be in our lifetime? possibly. but it will happen.
WotC sees the writing on the wall and are creating way to keep their business model afloat.
Take Barnes and Noble as an example. They say the trend of E-Books happening and they developed a device and digital storefront to sell E-Books and sold the hardware themselves. Boarders didnt and ended up going under.
Gamestop say the rise of digital games and adapted their business model to sell those codes and became the largest distributer for digital games. EB didnt and ended up going under.
Companies that do not pay attention and change with the trends will fail.
Yes, there will probably always be physical copies, but they will be the vast minority of sales and be regulated to limited editions at some point like records and old media is now.
Mearls was laid off in 2023 - he has no internal knowledge of the current sales for 2024. The only tangible information we have on numbers is that they are larger than anything else - show your receipts if you claim something to the contrary, and folks here will probably be able to show you why you (or the folks you're parroting without fact-checking) are misreading the data. Bestseller lists mean very little - especially with major changes both in how Wizards' books are classified (making them not as eligible for certain lists) and the increased push for both digital sales and LGS sales (which also do not submit data to bestsellers lists).
Call me old fashioned, but I am going to trust the Big Four Accounting firm's independent audit on sales data - which is going to be backed up by hard data and a dedication to accuracy in order to preserve a reputation worth more than Hasbro's entire net worth - over what some Youtubers, ex-employees, and forum commenters are saying as they try to make up a narrative out of very different data points.
Some people just have the mentality "change is bad" or "i already have the rules i like so why bother buying the new ones"
Some just have a hate on for "big corporate"
Some don't form their own opinions and just listen to what their friends say
Some just don't like the changes.
those are basically the reasons. I am not accusing anyone of being in any category, just stating the facts.
Reclassified how? If they have been reclassified to the point they no longer fit into a category that would register on those best seller lists why would they show up at all?
It never occurred to Mike Mearls he might be looking in the wrong place?
Where is the right place? In abstract statements with no numbers to support the claims made in them?
https://investor.hasbro.com/static-files/32a267bf-241b-4541-91ab-7745ed17693d
From their Q4 and 2024 earnings call
"D&D released the first significant update to 5th Edition since 2014 and closed out the year strong with both the new Players Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide breaking records for the best-selling D&D books ever"
Visit Japan and marvel at the number of stores that still sell LPs and CDs because people here still buy and collect them. Despite the convenience of streaming services, etc.
There is one neighborhood in Tokyo with around 200 bookstores lining its streets. Many cities would not have not that many bookstores. This is one small neighborhood. And bookstores can be found here in every neighborhood. Japan is the world's largest consumer of physical books. And that has not changed despite the prevalence of smartphones or e-books or any tech.
Physical is alive and well and this can be seen if you just step away from a computer from time to time.
Mearls hasn't worked for WoTc in two years. He knows as much as we do.
'tangible? It's an abstract statement. If the numbers are there and are as impressive as you claim they are they would proudly share them.
Mearls' no longer being employed at Wizards is irrelevant.
I never said it wasnt alive and well. And yes books are still in print. but that is slowly going away. Though just because it can be found everywhere in one country doesn't speak to the heatlh of an industry as a whole.
I love physical media, I buy it all the time. in all my entertainment, but I also buy digital versions as well. But in time physical media will stop being produced large scale.
1. The new D&D Books were reclassified by places like Amazon into "Toys and Games" rather than books. That is a very, very, very different category than Books - and a much, much more competitive category, dominated by things like Lego, Pokemon, crayons, regular playing cards, etc. D&D is big - and making hundreds of millions is big even in the book selling world. But in the greater toy world, where there are billion dollar brands running about? Obviously their best selling ranking is going to be dwarfed by the juggernauts, in a way they were not dwarfed when they were competing with books.
2. He does have a reason to be biased. Conversely, the statement you are trying (badly) to disprove is made by two entities (Wizards and KPMG) where they are required by law to be accurate.
3. There are numbers to support these claims - we do not have access to these numbers, but KPMG did when they performed an independent audit and signed off on Wizards' quarterly reporting.
I get that you are trying to spin a narrative, for whatever reason. But this is a losing argument you are making. Your entire argument essentially boils down to "Please, ignore the fact a Big Four accounting firm (one of the best auditors in the world) looked at the hard data and verified this information - look at my own anecdotal evidence (much of which has been shown to be flawed), and listen to me, even though I am neither an auditor nor have sufficient hard data to support my claims."
You are, of course, free to share your own, personal reasons why you dislike 5.24 - though that might be long on a different thread, as this thread was really more curious about those who do like it. But you cross the line into conspiratorial and to tilting at windmills when you use bad data, lies, and poor reading of facts to try and pretend your anecdotal opinion reflects the majority. It is not really fair to those of us who do like 5.24 - those of us who made 5.24 the best selling set of books in the game's history - to have our opinions summarily dismissed by someone who is choosing their own narrative over the fact of our existence.
Then why assert you know better? I imagine he has greater insight into how things work and how well or unwell things are going than people on a forum where they respond to anything negative with 'nu uh.' Two years and things have gone through such a transformation he couldn't possibly know what he is talking about? The man is an expert in his field. He has been hired to be the Executive Producer at Chaosium.
What makes you think so? Why so confident with this prediction of yours?
It would be better for the environment? Because AI is infinitely worse for it.
Um... think before you speak? Corporations don't share financial information with ex-employees, so there's no reason someone released in 2023 would have sales data from 2024.