Highest-level psionic powers are "sciences", and lower-level psionic powers are "devotions". You can spend psionic power points for devotions but not for sciences. After certain leveling-up the powers from certain leve change from sciences to devotions. It shouldn't broken the power balance, should it?
* If you read the manga "Spy x Family" you should realize how reading thoughts (and nobody can notice it) can change radically everything. The trilogy of videogames "Lucius" shows how a little telekinesis in the right place and moment can be fatal and nobody would realises who is the true responsible.
* I don't want psionicists to be too close to spellcasters because those need to follow their own path.
* I advice some pages of optional rules for the players who didn't want any changes and they would rather some old rule, for example pool of psionic power points.
Psions weave magic and extraordinary powers through the power of their minds. They develop their minds as fonts of power that manifest spells and grow stronger over the course of their adventuring careers.
To do what? When I look through this class - I'm sorry, but I don't see anything there.
What - precisely - are it's combat options? Harsh language, charm person and an illusion?
So long as they have psi points, they may be vaguely relevant, but as soon as they're out, they're basically ... mooks. Civilians who showed up to a super hero brawl.
Or am I just not seeing it? They look like utter crap to me.
Most spell levels have at least one damaging spell, though level 1 looks like an exception. You're unlikely to be making any Wizards feel worried about being beaten out on dpr, but you're not without options either. It is a pretty lean selection, though, so there likely will be only so much variance among Psions using this model.
Most spell levels have at least one damaging spell, though level 1 looks like an exception. You're unlikely to be making any Wizards feel worried about being beaten out on dpr, but you're not without options either. It is a pretty lean selection, though, so there likely will be only so much variance among Psions using this model.
Sure. For each level there's 'a' damage option. It's never any of the spells I'd want for that level though. And I realise this is for a reason: This isn't supposed to be a wizard by another name.
Only they failed to give it anything else. This is just a 'not a wizard by any name' class. Or I'm just still not seeing it. Maybe I should test it, but this feel like a class that cannot be good at anything. Anything it can do - another class does better, by a fat, heavy margin.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Most spell levels have at least one damaging spell, though level 1 looks like an exception. You're unlikely to be making any Wizards feel worried about being beaten out on dpr, but you're not without options either. It is a pretty lean selection, though, so there likely will be only so much variance among Psions using this model.
Sure. For each level there's 'a' damage option. It's never any of the spells I'd want for that level though. And I realise this is for a reason: This isn't supposed to be a wizard by another name.
Only they failed to give it anything else. This is just a 'not a wizard by any name' class. Or I'm just still not seeing it. Maybe I should test it, but this feel like a class that cannot be good at anything. Anything it can do - another class does better, by a fat, heavy margin.
I don’t know. In looking over the spell list, I’m seeing lots of options. Maybe not tons of direct damage spells, but some, and I’m also seeing interesting options for battlefield control and buffing allies. And really direct damage spells may be flashy, but control spells can win fights much more efficiently. So maybe they’re meant to be more controllers. Why hurt a few enemies with a fireball when you can incapacitate them with hypnotic pattern; stealing enemy actions can often be worth way more than direct damage.
And without verbal components, they can do their thing while standing within a silence area — situational to be sure, but when it happens, they’ll really shine. And think about a no verbal components Power Word Kill. It can’t be counter spelled. They just look at someone and the target drops dead. (Or takes 12d12 damage) I know no one actually plays at those levels, but damn that seems cool.
Tbf, all the full casters are SAD, Skill Expert is a PHB feat, and Bards get a lot of skill support. It’s not hard to play a high INT and knowledgeable caster using any of the options; you just can’t reliably flex 20 INT at level 8 on most, and the INT score itself has a fairly limited impact, particularly when you’re comparing a 16 to a 20. I guess it depends what your parameters for “brainy” are.
Sure, you can be a very knowledgeable Bard, but it's just not the same thing.as a character that can reliably no-sell Int saves or other Int rolls. How many times does the DM just call for an Intelligence check to give a hint for example? Or just give the high-Int character a key bit of information with no check at all? It's just human nature to be okay with intelligent characters being intelligent.
What - precisely - are it's combat options? Harsh language, charm person and an illusion?
So long as they have psi points, they may be vaguely relevant, but as soon as they're out, they're basically ... mooks. Civilians who showed up to a super hero brawl.
Or am I just not seeing it? They look like utter crap to me.
Some standouts by tier, without considering subclass or disciplines:
Combat cantrips: True Strike, Mind Sliver, Telekinetic Fling
Tier 4: Maze, Befuddlement, Power Word Stun, Shapechange, Time Stop, Foresight, Psychic Scream
Note that several of these can be upcast to stay useful in higher tiers, e.g. the summons, Banishment, Animate etc.
I mean .. sure, yes, but .. those are good spells. But ... I mean, would you? Play a class that had those spells to pick from and precious little else?
I really don't think I'm making this up. This is an unbelievably crappy class. Even with a light sprinkle of 'psion only' stuff on top.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I’ll grant INT saves, but for the rest when you compare +3 to +5 for rolls dice variance is going to carry more weight than the mod difference. And from personal experience I can’t recall a DM using unmodified INT rolls much if at all or checking for an attribute threshold. Idk, I don’t hate this class as a whole, but it’s got several rough patches and I’m not sure how much it offers that existing classes don’t, aside from INT casting.
Tier 4: Maze, Befuddlement, Power Word Stun, Shapechange, Time Stop, Foresight, Psychic Scream
Note that several of these can be upcast to stay useful in higher tiers, e.g. the summons, Banishment, Animate etc.
I mean .. sure, yes, but .. those are good spells. But ... I mean, would you? Play a class that had those spells to pick from and precious little else?
I really don't think I'm making this up. This is an unbelievably crappy class. Even with a light sprinkle of 'psion only' stuff on top.
First off, that's plenty of great spells. Keep in mind these are just the combat options (because that's what you asked about in your post); I haven't even touched on the utility stuff they get like Comprehend Languages or (Greater) Invisibility or Enhance Ability or Locate X or Silent/Major Image or Dispel Magic or Fly or Dimension Door etc etc. I compare this to the only other Int-primary option we have (Artificer) and Psion utterly blows it out of the water.
Second, again, all of the above is not considering subclass or disciplines, which add even more things to their repertoire completely separate from the above. And third/final, the nice thing about them being spellcasters is that they can get new spells in future books easily. That was the biggest problem with psionics in 3.5, the devs had to remember to include a "Powers" section in every new book to get them new stuff; 90% of the time they simply forgot to do that, and the remaining 10% were just clones of a handful of the new spells in the spell section, reworked to be self-only. This route guarantees that the next Strixhaven or Fizban's or Bigby's will include new toys for the Psion too.
I mean, we can’t necessarily guarantee that the Psion list will be updated- I don’t recall Artificers getting any new spells from official books after Tasha’s, I believe I’d heard that they didn’t want secondary books to cross reference like that. Though the horror themed Artificer subclass might mean they’re not sticking to that model. Not absolutely ruling it out, just pointing out that it would go against the trend we’ve seen to date in official books.
I mean, we can’t necessarily guarantee that the Psion list will be updated- I don’t recall Artificers getting any new spells from official books after Tasha’s, I believe I’d heard that they didn’t want secondary books to cross reference like that. Though the horror themed Artificer subclass might mean they’re not sticking to that model. Not absolutely ruling it out, just pointing out that it would go against the trend we’ve seen to date in official books.
You remember incorrectly: Air Bubble and Ashardalon's Stride were both Artificer spells that came after Tasha's, in Spelljammer and Fizban's respectively. So yes, we can in fact count on this being the case for the Psion.
<snip> Idk, I don’t hate this class as a whole, but it’s got several rough patches and I’m not sure how much it offers that existing classes don’t, aside from INT casting.
This is where I am at as well. I don't want them to drop this class, but it needs some work. As a social caster, Bard is much better equipped for the role. As an Int caster, Wizard is better in pretty much every way due to a MUCH larger spell list. To make this class stand apart, it really needs to lean into the Dice mechanic more.
I mean, we can’t necessarily guarantee that the Psion list will be updated- I don’t recall Artificers getting any new spells from official books after Tasha’s, I believe I’d heard that they didn’t want secondary books to cross reference like that. Though the horror themed Artificer subclass might mean they’re not sticking to that model. Not absolutely ruling it out, just pointing out that it would go against the trend we’ve seen to date in official books.
Considering we’re getting two new subclasses for the Artificer after it being barely touched in ages and a potential new class I think it’s safe to say something in their design ethos has changed recently
I mean, we can’t necessarily guarantee that the Psion list will be updated- I don’t recall Artificers getting any new spells from official books after Tasha’s, I believe I’d heard that they didn’t want secondary books to cross reference like that. Though the horror themed Artificer subclass might mean they’re not sticking to that model. Not absolutely ruling it out, just pointing out that it would go against the trend we’ve seen to date in official books.
Considering we’re getting two new subclasses for the Artificer after it being barely touched in ages and a potential new class I think it’s safe to say something in their design ethos has changed recently
One of the new subclasses is part of the main release, which doesn’t indicate a change in approach. The other one might- as I noted- but it’s hard to call until they actually put one in a book that doesn’t feature the core class.
There were also two spells that got added to Artificer, as I was reminded. I dunno, we’ll see how it all shakes out, but it’s more speculation than certainty that either class will get much further support at this point.
Well - it's not like I ever played a warlock, or an artificer in this or the previous edition, or any class not from the PHB. So maybe I'm not the yardstick for this.
But ... I mean, I wouldn't. Looks like a patchwork of abilities designed to be subpar at everything.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I just don't want this to die because people are destructive with feedback in the same way they were w/Mystic, the UA Strixhaven, Glitchling, & so many other races/species & subclasses denied the chance to be reworked & brought forward because they weren't for some individuals w/VERY strong opinions on how the game should be.
Well - it's not like I ever played a warlock, or an artificer in this or the previous edition, or any class not from the PHB. So maybe I'm not the yardstick for this.
But ... I mean, I wouldn't. Looks like a patchwork of abilities designed to be subpar at everything.
"Subpar" compared to what? Wizard, the strongest spellcaster in the game? That's literally every caster. Level-appropriate challenges? That's demonstrably false, again the spell list has bangers on it from top to bottom. Artificer? Wrong. Warlock? Still wrong. So what then?
Like I do think it could add a couple more direct damage options, and a baseline healing option, and still be distinct. They have Blade Barrier so I think they could justifiably get Cloud of Daggers to go along with all the low-level push/pull stuff they get. They do Hit Dice manipulation so I would move Aura of Vitality out of the Metamorph list and make it baseline instead, and Life Transference feels apropos too. And Ray of Sickness feels like it fits with their body manipulation stuff for another low-level damage option. But the changes I would propose to their spell list are honestly minimal.
I just don't want this to die because people are destructive with feedback in the same way they were w/Mystic, the UA Strixhaven, Glitchling, & so many other races/species & subclasses denied the chance to be reworked & brought forward because they weren't for some individuals w/VERY strong opinions on how the game should be.
It takes more than a few negative opinions to sink a UA. And at the same time, based on what we heard from the stuff leading up to the 2024 release, they want things with strong positive receptions. There’s a lot more people who respond to the surveys than post here, so you can’t really point fingers based on this discussion.
Well - it's not like I ever played a warlock, or an artificer in this or the previous edition, or any class not from the PHB. So maybe I'm not the yardstick for this.
But ... I mean, I wouldn't. Looks like a patchwork of abilities designed to be subpar at everything.
"Subpar" compared to what? Wizard, the strongest spellcaster in the game? That's literally every caster. Level-appropriate challenges? That's demonstrably false, again the spell list has bangers on it from top to bottom. Artificer? Wrong. Warlock? Still wrong. So what then?
Eh; the core features are fairly meh- about half the Discipline options look to be either rolls boosts or don’t have the spells to actually give much purpose to taking/using them. The telepathy is a joke unless you spend a resource on it. Idk, maybe it’s a class that’s more built on your subclass pick, but the core tools mostly feel underwhelming.
Eh; the core features are fairly meh- about half the Discipline options look to be either rolls boosts or don’t have the spells to actually give much purpose to taking/using them. The telepathy is a joke unless you spend a resource on it. Idk, maybe it’s a class that’s more built on your subclass pick, but the core tools mostly feel underwhelming.
I agree that some of the disciplines are weaker than others due to lacking spell support, Destructive Thoughts and Ego Whip being examples of those. But the overall idea of tying disciplines to spell schools is fine, it just needs some tweaks. And disciplines like Id Insinuation and Swift Precognition are more than fine.
The main thing to keep in mind is that at the end of the day, this is a 9th-level spellcaster, that's where the bulk of their power should be coming from - not the psi-dice or another baseline feature.
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How far did you read?
The Psion learns plenty of damaging options, with some subclasses even specializing in such.
Or are you asking for training or societal function lore? /hq
Now I am thinking about a special rule.
Highest-level psionic powers are "sciences", and lower-level psionic powers are "devotions". You can spend psionic power points for devotions but not for sciences. After certain leveling-up the powers from certain leve change from sciences to devotions. It shouldn't broken the power balance, should it?
* If you read the manga "Spy x Family" you should realize how reading thoughts (and nobody can notice it) can change radically everything. The trilogy of videogames "Lucius" shows how a little telekinesis in the right place and moment can be fatal and nobody would realises who is the true responsible.
* I don't want psionicists to be too close to spellcasters because those need to follow their own path.
* I advice some pages of optional rules for the players who didn't want any changes and they would rather some old rule, for example pool of psionic power points.
Most spell levels have at least one damaging spell, though level 1 looks like an exception. You're unlikely to be making any Wizards feel worried about being beaten out on dpr, but you're not without options either. It is a pretty lean selection, though, so there likely will be only so much variance among Psions using this model.
Sure. For each level there's 'a' damage option. It's never any of the spells I'd want for that level though. And I realise this is for a reason: This isn't supposed to be a wizard by another name.
Only they failed to give it anything else. This is just a 'not a wizard by any name' class. Or I'm just still not seeing it. Maybe I should test it, but this feel like a class that cannot be good at anything. Anything it can do - another class does better, by a fat, heavy margin.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I don’t know. In looking over the spell list, I’m seeing lots of options. Maybe not tons of direct damage spells, but some, and I’m also seeing interesting options for battlefield control and buffing allies. And really direct damage spells may be flashy, but control spells can win fights much more efficiently. So maybe they’re meant to be more controllers. Why hurt a few enemies with a fireball when you can incapacitate them with hypnotic pattern; stealing enemy actions can often be worth way more than direct damage.
And without verbal components, they can do their thing while standing within a silence area — situational to be sure, but when it happens, they’ll really shine.
And think about a no verbal components Power Word Kill. It can’t be counter spelled. They just look at someone and the target drops dead. (Or takes 12d12 damage) I know no one actually plays at those levels, but damn that seems cool.
Sure, you can be a very knowledgeable Bard, but it's just not the same thing.as a character that can reliably no-sell Int saves or other Int rolls. How many times does the DM just call for an Intelligence check to give a hint for example? Or just give the high-Int character a key bit of information with no check at all? It's just human nature to be okay with intelligent characters being intelligent.
Some standouts by tier, without considering subclass or disciplines:
Note that several of these can be upcast to stay useful in higher tiers, e.g. the summons, Banishment, Animate etc.
I mean .. sure, yes, but .. those are good spells. But ... I mean, would you? Play a class that had those spells to pick from and precious little else?
I really don't think I'm making this up. This is an unbelievably crappy class. Even with a light sprinkle of 'psion only' stuff on top.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I’ll grant INT saves, but for the rest when you compare +3 to +5 for rolls dice variance is going to carry more weight than the mod difference. And from personal experience I can’t recall a DM using unmodified INT rolls much if at all or checking for an attribute threshold. Idk, I don’t hate this class as a whole, but it’s got several rough patches and I’m not sure how much it offers that existing classes don’t, aside from INT casting.
First off, that's plenty of great spells. Keep in mind these are just the combat options (because that's what you asked about in your post); I haven't even touched on the utility stuff they get like Comprehend Languages or (Greater) Invisibility or Enhance Ability or Locate X or Silent/Major Image or Dispel Magic or Fly or Dimension Door etc etc. I compare this to the only other Int-primary option we have (Artificer) and Psion utterly blows it out of the water.
Second, again, all of the above is not considering subclass or disciplines, which add even more things to their repertoire completely separate from the above. And third/final, the nice thing about them being spellcasters is that they can get new spells in future books easily. That was the biggest problem with psionics in 3.5, the devs had to remember to include a "Powers" section in every new book to get them new stuff; 90% of the time they simply forgot to do that, and the remaining 10% were just clones of a handful of the new spells in the spell section, reworked to be self-only. This route guarantees that the next Strixhaven or Fizban's or Bigby's will include new toys for the Psion too.
TL;DR - Yes, I would definitely play this class.
I mean, we can’t necessarily guarantee that the Psion list will be updated- I don’t recall Artificers getting any new spells from official books after Tasha’s, I believe I’d heard that they didn’t want secondary books to cross reference like that. Though the horror themed Artificer subclass might mean they’re not sticking to that model. Not absolutely ruling it out, just pointing out that it would go against the trend we’ve seen to date in official books.
You remember incorrectly: Air Bubble and Ashardalon's Stride were both Artificer spells that came after Tasha's, in Spelljammer and Fizban's respectively. So yes, we can in fact count on this being the case for the Psion.
This is where I am at as well. I don't want them to drop this class, but it needs some work. As a social caster, Bard is much better equipped for the role. As an Int caster, Wizard is better in pretty much every way due to a MUCH larger spell list. To make this class stand apart, it really needs to lean into the Dice mechanic more.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Considering we’re getting two new subclasses for the Artificer after it being barely touched in ages and a potential new class I think it’s safe to say something in their design ethos has changed recently
One of the new subclasses is part of the main release, which doesn’t indicate a change in approach. The other one might- as I noted- but it’s hard to call until they actually put one in a book that doesn’t feature the core class.
There were also two spells that got added to Artificer, as I was reminded. I dunno, we’ll see how it all shakes out, but it’s more speculation than certainty that either class will get much further support at this point.
Well - it's not like I ever played a warlock, or an artificer in this or the previous edition, or any class not from the PHB. So maybe I'm not the yardstick for this.
But ... I mean, I wouldn't. Looks like a patchwork of abilities designed to be subpar at everything.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I just don't want this to die because people are destructive with feedback in the same way they were w/Mystic, the UA Strixhaven, Glitchling, & so many other races/species & subclasses denied the chance to be reworked & brought forward because they weren't for some individuals w/VERY strong opinions on how the game should be.
"Subpar" compared to what? Wizard, the strongest spellcaster in the game? That's literally every caster. Level-appropriate challenges? That's demonstrably false, again the spell list has bangers on it from top to bottom. Artificer? Wrong. Warlock? Still wrong. So what then?
Like I do think it could add a couple more direct damage options, and a baseline healing option, and still be distinct. They have Blade Barrier so I think they could justifiably get Cloud of Daggers to go along with all the low-level push/pull stuff they get. They do Hit Dice manipulation so I would move Aura of Vitality out of the Metamorph list and make it baseline instead, and Life Transference feels apropos too. And Ray of Sickness feels like it fits with their body manipulation stuff for another low-level damage option. But the changes I would propose to their spell list are honestly minimal.
It takes more than a few negative opinions to sink a UA. And at the same time, based on what we heard from the stuff leading up to the 2024 release, they want things with strong positive receptions. There’s a lot more people who respond to the surveys than post here, so you can’t really point fingers based on this discussion.
Eh; the core features are fairly meh- about half the Discipline options look to be either rolls boosts or don’t have the spells to actually give much purpose to taking/using them. The telepathy is a joke unless you spend a resource on it. Idk, maybe it’s a class that’s more built on your subclass pick, but the core tools mostly feel underwhelming.
I agree that some of the disciplines are weaker than others due to lacking spell support, Destructive Thoughts and Ego Whip being examples of those. But the overall idea of tying disciplines to spell schools is fine, it just needs some tweaks. And disciplines like Id Insinuation and Swift Precognition are more than fine.
The main thing to keep in mind is that at the end of the day, this is a 9th-level spellcaster, that's where the bulk of their power should be coming from - not the psi-dice or another baseline feature.