PsyrenXY - I don’t think he is complaining about the spells per se. They are solid spells but they may not fit the way they see a psion playing out in their head. I’m not a control/mnd games style layer - even with my bards. So if that were all/ most of what I was offered I would feel it to be sub par. It may also be the great reliance on psi dice which annoys me and seems to annoy a number of others. My complaint with the spells isn’t with their strength but with their limitedness- there are more than enough psion spells in the 1-3e psion books that could easily have been adapted to this as could all 6 of the specializations.
Well .... I mean - I did say 'at everything'. So no. Not the wizard. It literally can't bard like a bard, wizard like a wizard, fight like a fighter.
I'm ... not sure. I mean. Does it do anything? If you feel it does, maybe you can show me what? But I'm not asking you to agree with me. I just don't see how this class does anything, adds anything, is capable of anything that other classes don't do better - across the board.
If you know where this class excells, feel free to inform me - because obviously I'm absolutely missing it.
How is it worse than Warlock or Artificer? How is it worse than any martial?
I mean, I could just quote the spell list at you again but I don't think it's going to accomplish anything unless you truly appreciate what those spells, like, do. So we might just have to agree to disagree.
Imo Warlocks get more distinctive mileage out of their Invocations than anything on Psion. Ditto Artificers and their Infusions. The Psionic Disciplines are narrower, and are competing for resources to actually be used with numerous other features. Ki is in a similar position, but will typically present a larger pool and is more readily refreshed.
As for whether or not it's worse than a martial, that's a non-starter as a comparison. This is supposed to be a distinct full caster class, but the spell list is very limited in scope and as I've said the remaining features don't really stand out to me for the core class. There's some interesting subclass stuff, but a lot of it still relies on PED, so we return to the issue that there's too much drawing from a single fairly small resource pool.
Also this complaint is a little petty, but why on earth didn't they include Bigby's Hand as a Psion spell? It's a giant hand of magical force, that's such a clear fit for advanced telekinesis.
Okay, he's my pitch - Do we need another INT based full caster? And does INT even really make sense for this class? Psions seem to more closely resemble Sorcerers than Wizards? Do they study to gain their psionic abilities? How about, instead of INT, we have the first ever CON based full caster!!
(pause for applause)
Okay, everybody may now proceed in informing me on just how wrong I am.
Con makes significantly more sense for a sorcerer than a psion. What would make sense would be wisdom, like monks have, but that is really dependent on how you view psionics. Also, having constitution as a primary stat would put them up there with fighters in terms of hp at high levels.
Okay, he's my pitch - Do we need another INT based full caster? And does INT even really make sense for this class? Psions seem to more closely resemble Sorcerers than Wizards? Do they study to gain their psionic abilities? How about, instead of INT, we have the first ever CON based full caster!!
(pause for applause)
Okay, everybody may now proceed in informing me on just how wrong I am.
Do we need another INT based full caster?- Yes
Does INT even really make sense for this class? - Yes... here's why.
Way back in the 90s, when D&D had a lot more Classes under the Name AD&D, TSR Released "The Complete Psionics Handbook" (I have a copy in my library somewhere buried in a 20ft container waiting for us to buy a house.)
The PDF is easy to find though.
The Psionicist which the modern Psion is clearly based was an Int, wis, & con based Class, however instead of Spell Slots it used PSP's which was an insane mana system that required way too much math. I do think there is room for a Mana System in D&D that is simple to use that would be perfect for the Psion. But the mana pool should be tied to your Int + level in some way that is easy to to calculate and makes casting spells fun. They also copied the spell list and Subclasses from choices in the AD&D book. BTW Even the wild talents came from that book, although AD&D wild talents were a lot stronger, but then so was the Psionicist. It was possibly the most broken class of AD&D. As it was the only Class that could easily Solo 1 shot an AD&D Tarrasque. Detonate was that good.
Those Stat requirements also added up to your PSP pool, and the PSP spent allowed you to cast Psionic Spells with a test. If you failed the test, they all backfired. This made it that you needed at least an 16 in int just to pass the tests regularly.
As 5th ed does not have pain mechanics, and all Caster classes use Con for Concentration, Wisdom or Intelligence can work with a Psion, but as Cleric and Druid are both Wisdom based, Intelligence works just fine.
Conceptually it's not study that makes a Psion powerful, it's their raw intelligence that empowers their abilities. That is shown in 3rd and 4th edition versions of the Psion.
So basically Int is the historic Psion Stat, and as a concept it's literally the power of the mind casting the Abilities. Now if you want a Con caster, I would look at the Mystic, which was the last attempt at making a 5th edition Psionic class. It was OP, and ended up being broken up into Subclasses for other classes. Because no one wanted a Jack of all trades, Master of all roles class.
Which is what happens when Con becomes you main stat.
The Psion is a weak class, and that is a good thing, it needs a few minor tweaks and it is perfect IMO.
Okay, he's my pitch - Do we need another INT based full caster? And does INT even really make sense for this class? Psions seem to more closely resemble Sorcerers than Wizards? Do they study to gain their psionic abilities? How about, instead of INT, we have the first ever CON based full caster!!
(pause for applause)
Okay, everybody may now proceed in informing me on just how wrong I am.
I'm not telling you "how wrong you are", just that I disagree with your idea and also providing the reasons why I disagree.
Let's assume, for the sake of brevity, we're ruling out Dexterity and Strength based spellcasters, because that is a weird can of worms I don't want to touch. That leaves us with Con, Wis, Cha, and Int. We'll table Con for now.
Looking at the three "mental" stats we have Cha, Wis, and Int. We have four classes that cast of Cha (Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, and Paladin), three that cast off Wisdom (Druid, Cleric, and Ranger) and two off Int (Artificer and Wizard). We also have some additional subclasses off Int (Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster). To be honest, it might be easier to qualify how much each stat is used in spellcasting by using the multiclass progression fractions.
As you can see, Int just takes the bottom slot by 2/3 with charisma out in front, and this is including subclasses in the math. If we were to be just looking at base classes, Int would be in the rear with 1 1/2 with a full class bringing it up to 2 1/2, in parity with the other two abilities. So I personally think that's a good argument for picking Int over Cha (the sorcerer point is very valid, but Cha is loaded already).
So grant me that Int makes a better choice than Cha purely from the design perspective of not wanting to imbalance the efficacy of the spellcasting abilities, let's look at Con.
Con for a psionic caster makes perfect sense, but there's a huge problem—triple-dipping. Con is always a useful stat for any character as it's the biggest determinate of hit points and short-rest healing, so any character directly benefits from high hit points. Secondly, caster benefit from good Con because not only do they tend to have small hit dice, but it's also the ability used for resolving Concentration checks, the regulatory mechanics for some of the games most potent spells, especially in the context of 2024 spell design. So we have an ability that any spellcaster is going to value from prioritizing after their spellcasting ability. But with a Con caster, there is no secondary prioritization—they can focus everything in that one ability and get good spellcasting, good concentration, and good hit points. It's too much.
So if we accept that as a valid reason to discount Con as a spellcasting ability, I'd argue that leaves us with Int. Plus intelligence fits thematically as a psionic ability score, after all it's the power of mind.
Okay, he's my pitch - Do we need another INT based full caster? And does INT even really make sense for this class? Psions seem to more closely resemble Sorcerers than Wizards? Do they study to gain their psionic abilities? How about, instead of INT, we have the first ever CON based full caster!!
(pause for applause)
Okay, everybody may now proceed in informing me on just how wrong I am.
As others have pointed out this isn’t so much a case of “another INT based full caster” but more a second INT based full caster in a game where CHA is by far the most common magic base. The Wizard is the only full caster using intelligence so the Psion isn’t exactly in a crowded field
There is other point we have forgotten. The 3.5 psionic had got its own SRD. Will we see anything like this? I remember almost no 3PP used the psionic powers. Now there are sourcebooks about psionic powers or other special game mechanics in DMGuild.
Now let's imagine a Ravenloft story where the antagonist is using psionic powers to kill the members of a noble house and workers of services, like in the videogame Lucius. How could the PCs to discover the enemy who is using psionic powers with hostile intentions? I mean to test the power balance we need PCs to face enemies with psionic powers.
I hope the return of elemental stewards from the complete psionic. These could be useful or interesting as monster allies for the rest of spellcasters.
Some powers may not need verbal components, but if the psion said the right words the effect could be better.
Do you agree about some page for optional rules for any player who missed anything from a previous edition?
PsyrenXY - I don’t think he is complaining about the spells per se. They are solid spells but they may not fit the way they see a psion playing out in their head. I’m not a control/mnd games style layer - even with my bards. So if that were all/ most of what I was offered I would feel it to be sub par. It may also be the great reliance on psi dice which annoys me and seems to annoy a number of others. My complaint with the spells isn’t with their strength but with their limitedness- there are more than enough psion spells in the 1-3e psion books that could easily have been adapted to this as could all 6 of the specializations.
Look, I wouldn't mind a few additions to their spell list myself, as I've said previously in this thread. But to say that the current list presented in this UA makes them "subpar" is just objectively incorrect.
Imo Warlocks get more distinctive mileage out of their Invocations than anything on Psion. Ditto Artificers and their Infusions. The Psionic Disciplines are narrower, and are competing for resources to actually be used with numerous other features. Ki is in a similar position, but will typically present a larger pool and is more readily refreshed.
As for whether or not it's worse than a martial, that's a non-starter as a comparison. This is supposed to be a distinct full caster class, but the spell list is very limited in scope and as I've said the remaining features don't really stand out to me for the core class. There's some interesting subclass stuff, but a lot of it still relies on PED, so we return to the issue that there's too much drawing from a single fairly small resource pool.
Warlocks need those invocations because their spellcasting, on its own, IS subpar. Two slots in a fight for most of your career, and even after that, the spells that make sense in the Mystic Arcanum slots are very thin because they can't be upcast and you only get 1 per long rest from the 6th and 7th ranks unlike the Psion.
Psions meanwhile would be a perfectly functional class with no disciplines at all. They're icing on the cake, not necessary the way invocations are.
PsyrenXY - I don’t think he is complaining about the spells per se. They are solid spells but they may not fit the way they see a psion playing out in their head. I’m not a control/mnd games style layer - even with my bards. So if that were all/ most of what I was offered I would feel it to be sub par. It may also be the great reliance on psi dice which annoys me and seems to annoy a number of others. My complaint with the spells isn’t with their strength but with their limitedness- there are more than enough psion spells in the 1-3e psion books that could easily have been adapted to this as could all 6 of the specializations.
Look, I wouldn't mind a few additions to their spell list myself, as I've said previously in this thread. But to say that the current list presented in this UA makes them "subpar" is just objectively incorrect.
Imo Warlocks get more distinctive mileage out of their Invocations than anything on Psion. Ditto Artificers and their Infusions. The Psionic Disciplines are narrower, and are competing for resources to actually be used with numerous other features. Ki is in a similar position, but will typically present a larger pool and is more readily refreshed.
As for whether or not it's worse than a martial, that's a non-starter as a comparison. This is supposed to be a distinct full caster class, but the spell list is very limited in scope and as I've said the remaining features don't really stand out to me for the core class. There's some interesting subclass stuff, but a lot of it still relies on PED, so we return to the issue that there's too much drawing from a single fairly small resource pool.
Warlocks need those invocations because their spellcasting, on its own, IS subpar. Two slots in a fight for most of your career, and even after that, the spells that make sense in the Mystic Arcanum slots are very thin because they can't be upcast and you only get 1 per long rest from the 6th and 7th ranks unlike the Psion.
Psions meanwhile would be a perfectly functional class with no disciplines at all. They're icing on the cake, not necessary the way invocations are.
Except their spellcasting doesn't bring anything new to the table; it's like 90% Wizard spells with a handful of others for flavor and it's also far narrower than the Wizard list, and unlike Sorcerers with Metamagic the PSE die pool is very small. It's "functional" in that it performs the bare-bones of what a caster is supposed to do, but the distinctive identity is too spread out to be engaging imo.
Functionally, the psion is a specialist wizard -- their spell list is mostly a subset of the wizard spell list. This is mostly unavoidable, as there is a reasonably 'standard' set of psi abilities and they really do correspond to spells.
In theory, this specialization could be made up for by being better within their specialization. It's also something that D&D has historically failed to do well; usually the advantage is not large enough to make up for the loss of generality. I'd like it if specialists (not just psi -- all sorts of narrow focus spellcasters are possible) were done better, but I'm not convinced the psion achieves that.
Functionally, the psion is a specialist wizard -- their spell list is mostly a subset of the wizard spell list. This is mostly unavoidable, as there is a reasonably 'standard' set of psi abilities and they really do correspond to spells.
In theory, this specialization could be made up for by being better within their specialization. It's also something that D&D has historically failed to do well; usually the advantage is not large enough to make up for the loss of generality. I'd like it if specialists (not just psi -- all sorts of narrow focus spellcasters are possible) were done better, but I'm not convinced the psion achieves that.
Yeah, this is the problem- the PED pool is too small and nearly all the features depend on it.
Except their spellcasting doesn't bring anything new to the table; it's like 90% Wizard spells with a handful of others for flavor and it's also far narrower than the Wizard list, and unlike Sorcerers with Metamagic the PSE die pool is very small. It's "functional" in that it performs the bare-bones of what a caster is supposed to do, but the distinctive identity is too spread out to be engaging imo.
Their casting has to be narrower than a wizard's. Putting aside that this description once again applies to every other full caster in the game, they also have 100% of their list auto-silenced/eschewed and a good chunk completely undetectable (which also means uncounterable) at all. Giving them a massive list on top of that would be a huge advantage in a game where magic is already barely balanced as it is.
I've already proposed some small additions to their list that would reduce their weaknesses at low/mid levels. The subclasses show that Shield, Cloud of Daggers, Wall of Force, Alter Self, and Levitate make sense on a psion, so those should be baseline and either replicated or replaced in the subclasses to make room for other choices. Ray of Sickness would give them a thematic attack roll option. Cause Fear makes sense on a class that gets Fear. But these additions would still leave them less versatile overall than a sorcerer, and definitely less versatile than a wizard, which is the goal.
Their casting has to be narrower than a wizard's. Putting aside that this description once again applies to every other full caster in the game, they also have 100% of their list auto-silenced/eschewed and a good chunk completely undetectable (which also means uncounterable) at all.
The problem with automatic subtle spell as a signature ability is that it's a very strong ability... in a game where hiding the fact that you're casting spells is important. Which is mostly social games where people you don't want to notice would take offense, or stealth missions. Neither of which is the standard focus of D&D (several classes wind up being marginal to useless), and when all you need is occasional subtle casting, it's better to have it be an optional feature (like the sorcerer) where you can use the resource for a different purpose if you don't need stealth.
I would probably adjust the psionic spellcasting rules to add a 'psychic signature' which makes it obvious that you're casting a spell, and a psi die use that suppresses that. This is obviously a nerf, so add a compensatory buff. Maybe some cantrip upgrades (since one of the wants people have is to have more uses of psi), such as
Psionic Blade Ward: when you cast blade ward, you may spend a psi die. If you do, replace the normal d4 with a psi die.
Psionic Mage Hand: your mage hand is invisible. In addition, when you cast mage hand, you may spend a psi die. If you do, it has strength equal to two rolls of a psi die.
Psionic Message: your message is delivered via telepathy. If you spend a psi die, the recipient may also respond telepathically.
Psionic Minor Illusion: you may choose to have the illusion only noticeable by one target within range.
Psionic True Strike: you may make the damage psychic instead of its normal damage type.
Lovers of psionics, this newest Unearthed Arcana is just for you! Download The Psion and try it out right now!
Harness the immence power of thought with the Psion, spellcasters who use innate mental powers to gain extraordinary abilities and unleash the magic of their minds. This playtest document presents a new class, the Psion, along with its four subclasses and new spells to support this class. It also contains several Wild Talent feats to add psionic abilities to all types of D&D characters. These playtest rules are compatible with, and make use of, the Player's Handbook.
As a reminder, Unearthed Arcana playtest material does not interact with the D&D Beyond Character Builder. Grab your pen and paper to test this class!
Designers F. Wesley Schneider, Ben Petrisor, and Makenzie De Armas sat down with Todd to talk about this mind-blowing (heh) class below:
Ugh. I hate you guys. I love the Monk and I loved Pisonics (back when they were playable characters), now you bring them back and make me have to choose between the two most fun classes in the game?
So this class removes the material component from most spells. That could actually make casting more difficult for spells that include both a material and somatic component. Other classes can use a focus, but the psion must have a free hand.
The Psion doesn't require Material components, unless it is going to be consumed.
I know some people complaining about use of spellcasting and slots but, for me, if you need a system of "psionic powers" that get better on level up and a way of restricting how often you can use them...well you end up with spellcasting anyway. No point reinventing the wheel. Just use the existing spellcasting, modified to fit the concept of psionic powers, which is exactly what they've done.
I have a couple of niggles.
The lack of armor or shield proficiency feels a little bit off, despite the fact that the psion is "wizard-adjacent". At the very least the metamorph subclass needs some AC boost since it's more directly involved in physical combat.
The Psionic Modes feature is terrible. Mainly because it lasts 1 minute and can be used only twice a day. Yet the ongoing benefits of the feature (ignoring psychic resistance or gaining psychic resistance) are very situational, and the other benefits of rerolling damage die or boosting certain saving throws still takes your psionic energy die resource and may never even come up in the one combat that your mode is going to last for! So why limit it? That's just silly. Personally I would get rid of the limits and allow the Psion to choose which mode they want to be in as long as they're not incapacitated and it lasts until they switch. Maybe the ability to ignore/gain psychic resistance doesn't kick in till later levels and/or it takes an energy die to switch modes, but don't think it would be OP to have your mode 'always on'.
Not sure all the Psionic Disciplines and Wild Talents are quite balanced with each other, though I guess they don't need to be perfectly aligned. I think the Psion should gain more of them though.
Shout-out to the Metamorph's Organic Weapons feature. The Viscera Launcher that shoots acidic bile is delightfully disgusting! And also the Psychic Screams spell, which on dropping a creature to 0 hit points, causes their head to explode!
I don't know what a "Wizard Adjacent" is but this has nothing to do with a Wizard. Why would a Pisonic need armor? If anyone is afraid of damage, they can always multiclass. Finally I don't see anything wrong with the balance, except it's took weak maybe. Even at level 20, it doesn't seem as dangerous as 1e Psionics, or even Basic D&D Pisonics from the Immortals set. The only complaint I have is the Psi die, instead of using points.
Except their spellcasting doesn't bring anything new to the table; it's like 90% Wizard spells with a handful of others for flavor and it's also far narrower than the Wizard list, and unlike Sorcerers with Metamagic the PSE die pool is very small. It's "functional" in that it performs the bare-bones of what a caster is supposed to do, but the distinctive identity is too spread out to be engaging imo.
Their casting has to be narrower than a wizard's. Putting aside that this description once again applies to every other full caster in the game, they also have 100% of their list auto-silenced/eschewed and a good chunk completely undetectable (which also means uncounterable) at all. Giving them a massive list on top of that would be a huge advantage in a game where magic is already barely balanced as it is.
I've already proposed some small additions to their list that would reduce their weaknesses at low/mid levels. The subclasses show that Shield, Cloud of Daggers, Wall of Force, Alter Self, and Levitate make sense on a psion, so those should be baseline and either replicated or replaced in the subclasses to make room for other choices. Ray of Sickness would give them a thematic attack roll option. Cause Fear makes sense on a class that gets Fear. But these additions would still leave them less versatile overall than a sorcerer, and definitely less versatile than a wizard, which is the goal.
The auto-silence is a new problem, not a solution. There's a reason V components are a thing beyond just tradition, and unlimited removal of them from all spells just creates other balance/gameplay issues. What they need to do is dial that to a third psion mode, and either broaden the PED restoration means or pool or alternatively give a few passive Disciplines and/or features that don't expend PED.
To me the basics of all psionics except telepathy is covered by the concept of “ the Word and the Will”. That is you must think of the action/effect you want and then verbalize ito make it happen. Telepathy I grant may have to be silent. Typically it starts as passive - you hear other folks thoughts in your head. Then you start accidentally replying pushing your thoughts into their heads as replies. The individual or possibly a group “hears” you and probably takes offense and it takes you a while to realize they didn’t speak or hear verbally but mentally and then for you to learn to control and direct your ability to listen to other’s thoughts and to direct yours to others. We’ve all been in rooms with lots of folks talking loudly so it’s hard to follow any one conversation now imagine that in your head all the time that is the early telepath’s experience. Learning to reach into another person’s mind to read or alter their thoughts might actually call for some verbalisation however. I don’t see a psion needing either somatic or material components for most spells/powers/abilities. Assuming telepathic control stuff is silent then it needs some sort of visible representation to allow others to recognize it and attempt to counter it - think Theoden and Gandalf.
To me the basics of all psionics except telepathy is covered by the concept of “ the Word and the Will”.
This is another problem with psionics -- because it's a narrow concept than 'magic', people have more definite (which does not mean consistent) expectations about how it should work.
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PsyrenXY - I don’t think he is complaining about the spells per se. They are solid spells but they may not fit the way they see a psion playing out in their head. I’m not a control/mnd games style layer - even with my bards. So if that were all/ most of what I was offered I would feel it to be sub par. It may also be the great reliance on psi dice which annoys me and seems to annoy a number of others. My complaint with the spells isn’t with their strength but with their limitedness- there are more than enough psion spells in the 1-3e psion books that could easily have been adapted to this as could all 6 of the specializations.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Imo Warlocks get more distinctive mileage out of their Invocations than anything on Psion. Ditto Artificers and their Infusions. The Psionic Disciplines are narrower, and are competing for resources to actually be used with numerous other features. Ki is in a similar position, but will typically present a larger pool and is more readily refreshed.
As for whether or not it's worse than a martial, that's a non-starter as a comparison. This is supposed to be a distinct full caster class, but the spell list is very limited in scope and as I've said the remaining features don't really stand out to me for the core class. There's some interesting subclass stuff, but a lot of it still relies on PED, so we return to the issue that there's too much drawing from a single fairly small resource pool.
Also this complaint is a little petty, but why on earth didn't they include Bigby's Hand as a Psion spell? It's a giant hand of magical force, that's such a clear fit for advanced telekinesis.
Con makes significantly more sense for a sorcerer than a psion. What would make sense would be wisdom, like monks have, but that is really dependent on how you view psionics. Also, having constitution as a primary stat would put them up there with fighters in terms of hp at high levels.
Do we need another INT based full caster?- Yes
Does INT even really make sense for this class? - Yes... here's why.
Way back in the 90s, when D&D had a lot more Classes under the Name AD&D, TSR Released "The Complete Psionics Handbook" (I have a copy in my library somewhere buried in a 20ft container waiting for us to buy a house.)
The PDF is easy to find though.
The Psionicist which the modern Psion is clearly based was an Int, wis, & con based Class, however instead of Spell Slots it used PSP's which was an insane mana system that required way too much math. I do think there is room for a Mana System in D&D that is simple to use that would be perfect for the Psion. But the mana pool should be tied to your Int + level in some way that is easy to to calculate and makes casting spells fun. They also copied the spell list and Subclasses from choices in the AD&D book. BTW Even the wild talents came from that book, although AD&D wild talents were a lot stronger, but then so was the Psionicist. It was possibly the most broken class of AD&D. As it was the only Class that could easily Solo 1 shot an AD&D Tarrasque. Detonate was that good.
Note to make a Psionicist you needed
Ability Requirements: Constitution 11, Intelligence 12, Wisdom 15
Those Stat requirements also added up to your PSP pool, and the PSP spent allowed you to cast Psionic Spells with a test. If you failed the test, they all backfired. This made it that you needed at least an 16 in int just to pass the tests regularly.
As 5th ed does not have pain mechanics, and all Caster classes use Con for Concentration, Wisdom or Intelligence can work with a Psion, but as Cleric and Druid are both Wisdom based, Intelligence works just fine.
Conceptually it's not study that makes a Psion powerful, it's their raw intelligence that empowers their abilities. That is shown in 3rd and 4th edition versions of the Psion.
So basically Int is the historic Psion Stat, and as a concept it's literally the power of the mind casting the Abilities. Now if you want a Con caster, I would look at the Mystic, which was the last attempt at making a 5th edition Psionic class. It was OP, and ended up being broken up into Subclasses for other classes. Because no one wanted a Jack of all trades, Master of all roles class.
Which is what happens when Con becomes you main stat.
The Psion is a weak class, and that is a good thing, it needs a few minor tweaks and it is perfect IMO.
I'm not telling you "how wrong you are", just that I disagree with your idea and also providing the reasons why I disagree.
Let's assume, for the sake of brevity, we're ruling out Dexterity and Strength based spellcasters, because that is a weird can of worms I don't want to touch. That leaves us with Con, Wis, Cha, and Int. We'll table Con for now.
Looking at the three "mental" stats we have Cha, Wis, and Int. We have four classes that cast of Cha (Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, and Paladin), three that cast off Wisdom (Druid, Cleric, and Ranger) and two off Int (Artificer and Wizard). We also have some additional subclasses off Int (Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster). To be honest, it might be easier to qualify how much each stat is used in spellcasting by using the multiclass progression fractions.
As you can see, Int just takes the bottom slot by 2/3 with charisma out in front, and this is including subclasses in the math. If we were to be just looking at base classes, Int would be in the rear with 1 1/2 with a full class bringing it up to 2 1/2, in parity with the other two abilities. So I personally think that's a good argument for picking Int over Cha (the sorcerer point is very valid, but Cha is loaded already).
So grant me that Int makes a better choice than Cha purely from the design perspective of not wanting to imbalance the efficacy of the spellcasting abilities, let's look at Con.
Con for a psionic caster makes perfect sense, but there's a huge problem—triple-dipping. Con is always a useful stat for any character as it's the biggest determinate of hit points and short-rest healing, so any character directly benefits from high hit points. Secondly, caster benefit from good Con because not only do they tend to have small hit dice, but it's also the ability used for resolving Concentration checks, the regulatory mechanics for some of the games most potent spells, especially in the context of 2024 spell design. So we have an ability that any spellcaster is going to value from prioritizing after their spellcasting ability. But with a Con caster, there is no secondary prioritization—they can focus everything in that one ability and get good spellcasting, good concentration, and good hit points. It's too much.
So if we accept that as a valid reason to discount Con as a spellcasting ability, I'd argue that leaves us with Int. Plus intelligence fits thematically as a psionic ability score, after all it's the power of mind.
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As others have pointed out this isn’t so much a case of “another INT based full caster” but more a second INT based full caster in a game where CHA is by far the most common magic base. The Wizard is the only full caster using intelligence so the Psion isn’t exactly in a crowded field
There is other point we have forgotten. The 3.5 psionic had got its own SRD. Will we see anything like this? I remember almost no 3PP used the psionic powers. Now there are sourcebooks about psionic powers or other special game mechanics in DMGuild.
Now let's imagine a Ravenloft story where the antagonist is using psionic powers to kill the members of a noble house and workers of services, like in the videogame Lucius. How could the PCs to discover the enemy who is using psionic powers with hostile intentions? I mean to test the power balance we need PCs to face enemies with psionic powers.
I hope the return of elemental stewards from the complete psionic. These could be useful or interesting as monster allies for the rest of spellcasters.
Some powers may not need verbal components, but if the psion said the right words the effect could be better.
Do you agree about some page for optional rules for any player who missed anything from a previous edition?
Look, I wouldn't mind a few additions to their spell list myself, as I've said previously in this thread. But to say that the current list presented in this UA makes them "subpar" is just objectively incorrect.
Warlocks need those invocations because their spellcasting, on its own, IS subpar. Two slots in a fight for most of your career, and even after that, the spells that make sense in the Mystic Arcanum slots are very thin because they can't be upcast and you only get 1 per long rest from the 6th and 7th ranks unlike the Psion.
Psions meanwhile would be a perfectly functional class with no disciplines at all. They're icing on the cake, not necessary the way invocations are.
Except their spellcasting doesn't bring anything new to the table; it's like 90% Wizard spells with a handful of others for flavor and it's also far narrower than the Wizard list, and unlike Sorcerers with Metamagic the PSE die pool is very small. It's "functional" in that it performs the bare-bones of what a caster is supposed to do, but the distinctive identity is too spread out to be engaging imo.
Functionally, the psion is a specialist wizard -- their spell list is mostly a subset of the wizard spell list. This is mostly unavoidable, as there is a reasonably 'standard' set of psi abilities and they really do correspond to spells.
In theory, this specialization could be made up for by being better within their specialization. It's also something that D&D has historically failed to do well; usually the advantage is not large enough to make up for the loss of generality. I'd like it if specialists (not just psi -- all sorts of narrow focus spellcasters are possible) were done better, but I'm not convinced the psion achieves that.
Yeah, this is the problem- the PED pool is too small and nearly all the features depend on it.
Their casting has to be narrower than a wizard's. Putting aside that this description once again applies to every other full caster in the game, they also have 100% of their list auto-silenced/eschewed and a good chunk completely undetectable (which also means uncounterable) at all. Giving them a massive list on top of that would be a huge advantage in a game where magic is already barely balanced as it is.
I've already proposed some small additions to their list that would reduce their weaknesses at low/mid levels. The subclasses show that Shield, Cloud of Daggers, Wall of Force, Alter Self, and Levitate make sense on a psion, so those should be baseline and either replicated or replaced in the subclasses to make room for other choices. Ray of Sickness would give them a thematic attack roll option. Cause Fear makes sense on a class that gets Fear. But these additions would still leave them less versatile overall than a sorcerer, and definitely less versatile than a wizard, which is the goal.
The problem with automatic subtle spell as a signature ability is that it's a very strong ability... in a game where hiding the fact that you're casting spells is important. Which is mostly social games where people you don't want to notice would take offense, or stealth missions. Neither of which is the standard focus of D&D (several classes wind up being marginal to useless), and when all you need is occasional subtle casting, it's better to have it be an optional feature (like the sorcerer) where you can use the resource for a different purpose if you don't need stealth.
I would probably adjust the psionic spellcasting rules to add a 'psychic signature' which makes it obvious that you're casting a spell, and a psi die use that suppresses that. This is obviously a nerf, so add a compensatory buff. Maybe some cantrip upgrades (since one of the wants people have is to have more uses of psi), such as
(yes, some of these are better than others).
Ugh. I hate you guys. I love the Monk and I loved Pisonics (back when they were playable characters), now you bring them back and make me have to choose between the two most fun classes in the game?
How does my head not explode here?
The Psion doesn't require Material components, unless it is going to be consumed.
I don't know what a "Wizard Adjacent" is but this has nothing to do with a Wizard. Why would a Pisonic need armor? If anyone is afraid of damage, they can always multiclass. Finally I don't see anything wrong with the balance, except it's took weak maybe. Even at level 20, it doesn't seem as dangerous as 1e Psionics, or even Basic D&D Pisonics from the Immortals set. The only complaint I have is the Psi die, instead of using points.
The auto-silence is a new problem, not a solution. There's a reason V components are a thing beyond just tradition, and unlimited removal of them from all spells just creates other balance/gameplay issues. What they need to do is dial that to a third psion mode, and either broaden the PED restoration means or pool or alternatively give a few passive Disciplines and/or features that don't expend PED.
To me the basics of all psionics except telepathy is covered by the concept of “ the Word and the Will”. That is you must think of the action/effect you want and then verbalize ito make it happen. Telepathy I grant may have to be silent. Typically it starts as passive - you hear other folks thoughts in your head. Then you start accidentally replying pushing your thoughts into their heads as replies. The individual or possibly a group “hears” you and probably takes offense and it takes you a while to realize they didn’t speak or hear verbally but mentally and then for you to learn to control and direct your ability to listen to other’s thoughts and to direct yours to others. We’ve all been in rooms with lots of folks talking loudly so it’s hard to follow any one conversation now imagine that in your head all the time that is the early telepath’s experience. Learning to reach into another person’s mind to read or alter their thoughts might actually call for some verbalisation however. I don’t see a psion needing either somatic or material components for most spells/powers/abilities. Assuming telepathic control stuff is silent then it needs some sort of visible representation to allow others to recognize it and attempt to counter it - think Theoden and Gandalf.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is another problem with psionics -- because it's a narrow concept than 'magic', people have more definite (which does not mean consistent) expectations about how it should work.