To me, I think a gish subclass requires a few things:
1. The ability to cast spells in some capacity, with at least a subset for combat. 2. The ability to deal decent damage in melee* with a weapon, which will usually entail some sort of "extra attack" feature. 3. The ability to survive in melee*, in the form of armor proficiencies, harrier tactics (get in, get out), or readily available THP/AC boost.
*I don't really consider ranged martial combat gishy enough. It's just ranged spells without the slots, mechanically.
So, why don't I think sorcerers will ever get a true gish subclass? Quickened. Give them any form of extra attack and they become a one-person offensive army due to the ease at which they can cast their most powerful spells as BAs on top of their extra melee attacks. And it would have to be the extra attack. If you only gave them survivability, there would be no incentive to get into melee range and it becomes a dead feature most of the time. Just extra attack and the character is always dancing on a knife's edge as a d6 HP, unarmored glass nuke.
Are my gish criteria too strict? Not strict enough? Do you think a proper sorcerer gish subclass could work with quickened in the mix? How would you go about it?
When 5.24 Draconic Sorc first dropped I definitely felt that it was in the running (15 base AC from a standard array without sacrificing CON, +1 HP/lvl, resistance to an elemental damage type). I got a lot of pushback for that view, which is part of the reason I eventually ended up making this thread (that and the endless discussions of how Nick works and me thinking how awesome it would be for a Sorc to get Weapon Mastery to free up that BA for a sweet quickened fireball on top of some juicy attacks from a "true gish" subclass). It seems the consensus is that draconic is not quite enough to make it into gish territory. Perhaps it's that things like True Strike and Shillelagh don't really "feel" like how a gish should melee?
I never did get the opportunity to try it out myself, but I feel that it would be quite good for a couple rounds (eating up spell slots for shield and quickened attack spells like crazy) and then be tapped out for the day.
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To me, I think a gish subclass requires a few things:
1. The ability to cast spells in some capacity, with at least a subset for combat.
2. The ability to deal decent damage in melee* with a weapon, which will usually entail some sort of "extra attack" feature.
3. The ability to survive in melee*, in the form of armor proficiencies, harrier tactics (get in, get out), or readily available THP/AC boost.
*I don't really consider ranged martial combat gishy enough. It's just ranged spells without the slots, mechanically.
So, why don't I think sorcerers will ever get a true gish subclass? Quickened. Give them any form of extra attack and they become a one-person offensive army due to the ease at which they can cast their most powerful spells as BAs on top of their extra melee attacks. And it would have to be the extra attack. If you only gave them survivability, there would be no incentive to get into melee range and it becomes a dead feature most of the time. Just extra attack and the character is always dancing on a knife's edge as a d6 HP, unarmored glass nuke.
Are my gish criteria too strict? Not strict enough? Do you think a proper sorcerer gish subclass could work with quickened in the mix? How would you go about it?
I mean, you can get a sorcerer gish right now. A draconic sorcerer with quickened spell and true strike seems to match all your requirements.
When 5.24 Draconic Sorc first dropped I definitely felt that it was in the running (15 base AC from a standard array without sacrificing CON, +1 HP/lvl, resistance to an elemental damage type). I got a lot of pushback for that view, which is part of the reason I eventually ended up making this thread (that and the endless discussions of how Nick works and me thinking how awesome it would be for a Sorc to get Weapon Mastery to free up that BA for a sweet quickened fireball on top of some juicy attacks from a "true gish" subclass). It seems the consensus is that draconic is not quite enough to make it into gish territory. Perhaps it's that things like True Strike and Shillelagh don't really "feel" like how a gish should melee?
I never did get the opportunity to try it out myself, but I feel that it would be quite good for a couple rounds (eating up spell slots for shield and quickened attack spells like crazy) and then be tapped out for the day.