I hope we will see an update to the Eberron UA soon. They have an Artificer class, (which needs some tweaking) and a psionic Mystic (which I really like) both of which are touchstones of Eberron. So, this has me hopeful for a new UA with updated races, including Kalashtar, dragonmarks and maybe a few items like the eternal wands.
Unfortunately, the more recent Artificer class bears practically no resemblance to the Artificer that appeared in the original Eberron book. There's no way I'd even consider allowing it into an Eberron campaign.
Fair enough about the dwarves having both. Since it said Base AC, that comes across as a +2 to me, not a replacement for armor.
Both version seem to lack anything unique though. Its like a warforged is a half elf half dwarf with almost nothing unique to itself.
I see why you'd think that about the AC. According to Jeremy Crawford an AC equation will be replaced with another AC equation. (i.e. Warforged have 13 + Dex mod, Monk have Wis mod + Dex mod, and Plate mail gives AC 18, the player has to pick which one they want to use.) So a Warforged Monk would either use their base of 13 + Dex mod or their unarmored defense of Wis mod + Dex mod. They wouldn't use 13 + Wis mod + Dex mod.
Might not be to overpowered at first glance but that is a Blending of two AC Calcs as written by Roganzar.
Unarmored Defense Specifically states it is 10+Dex+Wis.
Natural Armor is 13+Dex. (Lizardfolk example given).
Two different AC calculations so the player just needs to pick one.
So it's not that AC 23 (13+5+5 (20 in both stats for example)) is crazy high but that is not accounting for any magical modifiers including stats beyond 20.
the real problem though is It sets a precedent of using two AC calculations at the same time and this is a problem for a whole host of others. Barb/monks, Druid Monks, Barb/druids Lizardfolk Druid/monks etc.
Simplicity is if you have multiple options, work them all out and pick the one you want.
For one thing, it's much more mechanical than magical, which really doesn't fit the original flavor. Eberron really isn't q steampunk setting. It's about what happens when magic is reliable and repeatable enough to replace technology. Replacing an obviously magical class with one that has trap.with one that has trappings of technology does not fit and would make the handling of the rest of the world very, very suspect.
For another, the original artificer was really about creating stuff and tinkering with magical effects. Yes, there were a couple feats around wielding wands, b at it could never have been mistaken for a heavy gunner. Whether intended for Eberron or not, I have reservations about referring to a guy with a big gun as an artificer.
Finally, the gun itself. Guns bad in D&D. That's not Eberron specific, but should have killed the idea before it ever got to the point of being typed up. That's somewhat a matter of personal aesthetics. Nevertheless, I consider the stand-alone artificer UA to be the single worst entry in the series' run. It's not good for anything and doesn't even have a seed worth considering a rough draft for refining. Delete the file and all evidence of it, then start over.
And i I find the idea that guns are bad for DnD laughable.
But mostly, it's a subclass. The rest of the class isn't even mechanical, it infuses magic into things and crafts wondrous items. The other subclass makes magical potions. That is an Artificer.
Reflavor the "gun" as a siege staff or a magically empowered heavy crossbow, and it fits fine in Eberron.
And i I find the idea that guns are bad for DnD laughable.
But mostly, it's a subclass. The rest of the class isn't even mechanical, it infuses magic into things and crafts wondrous items. The other subclass makes magical potions. That is an Artificer.
Reflavor the "gun" as a siege staff or a magically empowered heavy crossbow, and it fits fine in Eberron.
The reskin of the gun subclass of the Artificer so that the "gun" is a staff or crossbow is the best, current, way to handle that class for Eberron. The class as it stands seems designed more broadly to fit easier into many more settings.
Since Eberron isn't steampunk it doesn't have guns, so you'd have to think of how to reskin things that had been developed scientifically. Which is why it has things like seize staves and eternal wands and enchanted crossbows. Also why Warforged, both Titan and sentient types, are a magical constructs of metal, stone, wood and alchemical fluids as opposed to gears, servomechanisms, oil and electricity. This thought experiment within Eberron is one of my favorite aspects to the settings.
Lastly, there's nothing wrong with guns in D&D. It just depends on the setting your in. Eberron, no not a place for them. A Victorian setting, (I.e. Three Musketeers) totally works.
And i I find the idea that guns are bad for DnD laughable.
But mostly, it's a subclass. The rest of the class isn't even mechanical, it infuses magic into things and crafts wondrous items. The other subclass makes magical potions. That is an Artificer.
Reflavor the "gun" as a siege staff or a magically empowered heavy crossbow, and it fits fine in Eberron.
The reskin of the gun subclass of the Artificer so that the "gun" is a staff or crossbow is the best, current, way to handle that class for Eberron. The class as it stands seems designed more broadly to fit easier into many more settings.
Since Eberron isn't steampunk it doesn't have guns, so you'd have to think of how to reskin things that had been developed scientifically. Which is why it has things like seize staves and eternal wands and enchanted crossbows. Also why Warforged, both Titan and sentient types, are a magical constructs of metal, stone, wood and alchemical fluids as opposed to gears, servomechanisms, oil and electricity. This thought experiment within Eberron is one of my favorite aspects to the settings.
Lastly, there's nothing wrong with guns in D&D. It just depends on the setting your in. Eberron, no not a place for them. A Victorian setting, (I.e. Three Musketeers) totally works.
Agreed. IMO magical guns and cannons could work fine in Eberron, too, as long as what propels them is magical, and especially if they are a new thing. Keith Baker disagrees, but even he constantly reminds folks that it's up to them, and says that the gunsmith Artificer works fine if reflavored for the thunder cannon to be something entirely magical, rather than an enchanted gun.
Hell, it makes a really good mobile siege staff, like seen in one of Keith's Eberron novels. Can't remember which one, but it starts with a battle with a militarized airship, and a specialist uses what amounts to magical anti-air weaponry against it.
I have a player right now who is using is as a sort of blasting rod in an Eberron campaign, complete with homebrewed upgrades like a sigil of far sight that works like a scope, a tensor stone that stabilizes the weapon for steady shooting, like a tripod, etc. another player was going to use it before deciding to play a warlock, and was drawing inspiration from the DDO Artificer with it's Rune Arm, and Mass Effect's Omni-Tool.
Part of the point of Eberron, for us, is to come up with ways that magic can advance, and solve things that are solved technologically in the real world.
We still have to just not think about the lack of tech in Eberron, though. To us, magic would have to be even more common and pervasive to prevent technological advancement, and even then, mundane physical properties would still be explored, and things like winches, pulleys, and eventually cannons would still be invented. But we just ignore it and move on, for the most part.
That's some great stuff your player is doing and at the core of the intent of Eberron.
Back on to Warforged. I have a few players that don't think Warforged should be a player race. Please put down the enchanted pitchforks and everburning torches. Their reasoning is that Warforged are to "alien" a mindset. That they don't have enough to connect them to other organic races. (Don't need to eat or sleep for example.) I can understand this, don't entirely agree, but I see where their coming from. So, in the spirit of Eberron and thought experiments, how do you convince players and GMs that Warforged as a race, not just a stat block, are a worthy race to play? I have many thoughts on this but looking for more.
Well, I think the arguments are close to the same as with all sentient golems, whether they be mechanical and futuristic, like Data from Star Trek, or magical like Warforged. Or something in between.
I will say that I think warforged are closer to organics than androids are, though. They experience emotional responses to things. They feel fear, love, compassion, they need purpose, they can be emotionally damaged, and feel physical damage. Not needing to eat or sleep isn't, imo, anywhere in the same league as living for a thousand years, when it comes to alien mindset.
For me, part of the point of roleplaying games is to inhabit a somehwat alien mind, to explore strange new worlds not just in terms of the actual play world, but also in terms of the lived experiences, biases, and general gnosis of a creature that is very different from me.
Through the lense of the alien, we can gain a new perspective on the familiar
I certainly think that is worthwhile. And fun! And challenging, which is its own kind of fun.
And i I find the idea that guns are bad for DnD laughable.
But mostly, it's a subclass. The rest of the class isn't even mechanical, it infuses magic into things and crafts wondrous items. The other subclass makes magical potions. That is an Artificer.
Reflavor the "gun" as a siege staff or a magically empowered heavy crossbow, and it fits fine in Eberron.
Not sure why it reads that way, over all. You asked and I gave reasons. Yes, I'm pretty emphatically anti-gun, but that's really the only point I made that's "just because". If you want a bit more on that, I'm not absolutely opposed to guns in any and all settings. I'm just opposed to them as a core D&D idea (i.e. available for all settings). If they exist, they should be packaged as part of what makes a particular setting unique. That's probably going to be a setting that has other elements that I don't like, but one never knows -- I once said that I hated magitech and ubiquitous magic, but Eberron turned out to be my favorite published setting.
Regardless of my feelings on guns, in general, gunpowder doesn't really "fit" the original concept of the setting. If you want to add it, the setting could handle it, but I think it would substantively change some elements of the setting. The argument to "just reskin" the guns is a silly one. To make it more appropriate for "core" D&D, present the class as being skinned for magical effects with a sidebar (or even just implicit/unwritten) option to reskin for tech.
Again, setting aside the issue with gunpowder, specifically, in Eberron and/or the flavor of the effects, that particular version of the artificer isn't a descendant of the 3.5 Eberron artificer class. I've already given fairly clear reasons around that and won't repeat myself. It may be a fine class, but it is not the Eberron artificer.
You haven't really explained why it isn't, and what little you have said, I've refuted with no response.
One subclass is "mechanical". The base class isn't, the alchemist certainly isn't. The mechanical servant, I suppose, is, but...that is just fluff.
The class shouldn't be flavored for Eberron with sidebars for everywhere else, it should have sidebars for what flavor is different in Eberron. The mechanical servant probably won't even make it to the next iteration of the class, anyway, bc I've not seen anyone say they like it, even those of us who love the class overall.
But if it does, in Eberron it is a magical construct instead of a magically brought to life mechanical one. That...isn't a significant difference. That is a sidebar, at most.
What does the class actually do? Infuse Magic, cast spells from a very appropriate list, create wondrous items, get expertise with the tools used to interact with the general magic item crafting rules, analyze magical effects and properties reliably and without using spell slots or components, Attune more magic terms than others can, and then what the subclasses do.
I do think they should replace the companion with the ability to make a weapon do elemental damage, boost armor temporarily, create healing infusions, and later recharge charges on magic items, but I'd also be fine with that living in spells and subclass features. I'd also give all artificers Mending and Healing Elixer as cantrips.
In fact, the subclasses are meaty enough, that a Cannith Maker, Self Forged, Battle Engineer (replace gunsmith, with multiple weapon options), and some new spells, and I really 100% can't imagine it not playing like an Eberron Artificer.
The fact it can also play differently to that, is a good thing.
Basically, he seems to conclude that the Artificer needs some purely cosmetic relfavoring in Eberron, to lose the construct companion (or at least make it optional, and not large), and add some Eberron specific subclasses and spells. Other than that, it does what he wants an artificer class to do, or is at least within "small tweaks" range of it.
You haven't really explained why it isn't, and what little you have said, I've refuted with no response.
It's actually impossible to refute with no response. That would be dismissing, not refuting. I gave you two points, plus the general objection to guns.
Basically, he seems to conclude that the Artificer needs some purely cosmetic relfavoring in Eberron, to lose the construct companion (or at least make it optional, and not large), and add some Eberron specific subclasses and spells. Other than that, it does what he wants an artificer class to do, or is at least within "small tweaks" range of it.
Nice. I missed his take on it. After re-reading the original PDF via his link, I'm going to scale back my criticism, somewhat, and admit that much of my true dislike is for the Gunsmith, and that's where I say it should have been summarily discarded. That's a purely personal aesthetic that I understand is not shared by all. I do think that "default" D&D should not have guns and that there really aren't any existing major published settings (i.e. settings that spring to my mind) where guns are appropriate. If WotC wanted to release a steampunk or other semi-tech setting that included guns, I probably wouldn't buy it, but I'd be fine with it -- mainly because I think multiple official published settings benefit the game.
Even if that was removed, however, I don't see that this version of the Artificer as being a particularly good fit for the niche served by the 3.5 ECS Artificer class. That was my main point, and that is still my opinion -- at least for the gunsmith. While there is a case to be made that the issues are a matter of flavor, I think the flavor runs a bit more than skin deep and the presented flavor would continually creep in. So, I can't completely discount the flavor.
Also, regardless of whether or not a 5E Artificer should be targeted expressly at Eberron, it should still be appropriate for use in Eberron, as written. Why? Because the class, as named, originated in Eberron. There's an explicit tie between the two in a lot of people's eyes. If they'd called the class the Technomage, it wouldn't be an issue. I might still object to some of the mechanics, or that guns were given any sort of a priority, but wouldn't really have given it additional consideration other than as something disposable and one-off. They could probably even include some sort of bombardier or gunsmith subclass, with a note of "note thematically appropriate for Eberron, despite the parent class name" and it would just be service to a certain crowd.
Objections to the mechanics really belong in another thread. In an Eberron-specific thread, there are enough flavor issues to no have to go any further. Since the topic has come up:
I'm overall good with the base class features: hit dice, proficiencies, etc. No complaints, especially for a play test that will be getting feedback.
I don't like the spell progression. Reserve the 1/3 caster progression for subclasses. If the base class has spells, the options should really be full (wizard), half (ranger), or warlock. Personally, I think the Warlock provides the best chassis for a 5E Artificer, but it isn't a hill to die for. Regardless, the 1/3 caster should not have been used.
I would have done Specialties of Tinkerer (modify items), Alchemist, and animator (bulder of golems and such). Why? Those seem like good bases. Not sure how playable the animator would be, but I'd probably focus on a pet. I can see the interest in something like the gunsmith, but I'd probably call it a bombardier and use magical flavor.
I agree with Keith that Wondrous Invention and Superior Attunement are fair baselines. I think the Wondrous Invention could use a bit of work, but that might be best handled as features of a Tinkerer. I really like Superior Attunement, but have concerns that it might throw off balance, but that's something that is only likely to be discovered during play tests. Soul of Artifice looks insanely potent, assuming Superior Attunement is worth using for, you know, attuning.
I think that the Infuse Magic is a decent idea, but a bit clunky. One idea I had was that the Artificer could "hand off" concentration on certain spells to others, by tying them to items. So, magic weapon could be made to last by letting the fighter concentrate on it. That might get rough for the fighter who is taking damage, but it's an idea. Not sure whether mine is any less clunky.
I don't really care for the mechanical (and size large) nature of the companion. I don't think it's the option of having a mechanical critter that bugs me so much as the standardization. I'd rather see a golem as a base with options (in a sidebar?) for animated objects, homonculi, and mechanoids. Size small seems most appropriate, with larger companions the domain of the Animator specialty.
I can't quite place why the alchemist rubs me wrong. I think part of it is that it still feels technologic, but tech with magical rules. Maybe I"m just being overly critical of it because I mostly want to see the Tinkerer specialty and that wasn't part of it. Maybe it's a matter of me wanting to see actual potions that could be handed off. The "mix and throw" doesn't really do it, for me. As a power, sure. Not as the only ability, though.
The gunsmith, well, clearly I'm not going to like the guns. I don't think the flavor can be sufficiently expunged, either, without a complete rewrite. Maybe stripping it down, literally, to raw mechanics and building it back up as a wand master or some such. There's just so much emphasis on it being a gun and behaving like a gun. I think it's actually impossible for me to give a fair critique of the mechanics.
Well, I think the arguments are close to the same as with all sentient golems, whether they be mechanical and futuristic, like Data from Star Trek, or magical like Warforged. Or something in between.
I will say that I think warforged are closer to organics than androids are, though. They experience emotional responses to things. They feel fear, love, compassion, they need purpose, they can be emotionally damaged, and feel physical damage. Not needing to eat or sleep isn't, imo, anywhere in the same league as living for a thousand years, when it comes to alien mindset.
For me, part of the point of roleplaying games is to inhabit a somehwat alien mind, to explore strange new worlds not just in terms of the actual play world, but also in terms of the lived experiences, biases, and general gnosis of a creature that is very different from me.
Through the lense of the alien, we can gain a new perspective on the familiar
I certainly think that is worthwhile. And fun! And challenging, which is its own kind of fun.
This is why I like them. Plus cool "robot" guy. The players I've had playing Warforged either played HK-47 minus the personality or just couldn't wrap their head around the ideas that Warforged represent, (primarily finding your place in the world.) Which has left a bad view of the race in another player. Bad HK-47 player doesn't play with us anymore and I think the other 2 are just to steeped in classic fantasy tropes that they can't wrap their heads around them.
On the gunsmith portion of the Artificer, it occurs to me there s a setting where the Artificer, as currently written with or without robo-pet, would fit really well. That would be Starjammer.
I get where you're coming from, but I gotta disagree completely on the relfavoring of the gun thing. IMO, it's a very, very, cosmetic difference. Literally just call the gun a crossbow that charges lightning magic into its bolts, and suddenly it's an Eberronian Battle Engineer, completely at home on the battlefields of the Last War.
Same deal with reflavoring the Alchemists potions as infusions. Just...describe them as that, instead?
Also, if you say that Warforged are overpowered, let me remind you that most of the volo's guide (WHICH ARE LEGAL) are pretty powerful.
e.g. Goliaths have proficeiuncy in athletics, can reduce damage once by d12+con mod, And are NATURALLY acclimated to +20,000 feet.
Lizardfolk have a natural weapon, Natural armor, 2 skills, swimming speed, can make stuff in a short rest, and can hold breath for a while.
Tritons can cast some water spells, breath water, swim, talk to water creatures, and ignore deep water drawbacks.
Bugbears can carry more, deal more damage on the first turn, stealth skill, and can attack from 5 feet more away.
Yuan-ti purebloods are the only player races that cannot be affected AT ALL by poison, they know poison spray and suggestion, and can charm snake at-will. oh, and did i menton that THEY HAVE SPELL RESISTANCE?
DM in the kobold fight club "Yes i know this is insane, but my usual players are murderhobos." Birdman in adventures in faerun "Flapping wings" (telepathy) "The enemies are overwhelming us, i'll go break their minds." Irthos Bladesinger in trouble in timberbottom (DED) (All PbP)
Also, if you say that Warforged are overpowered, let me remind you that most of the volo's guide (WHICH ARE LEGAL) are pretty powerful.
e.g. Goliaths have proficeiuncy in athletics, can reduce damage once by d12+con mod, And are NATURALLY acclimated to +20,000 feet.
I'm confused. Why is the altitude acclimation something you're including as part of a list of things that make the race powerful? It's...barely a ribbon.
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Can I ask why? Seems fine to me.
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Might not be to overpowered at first glance but that is a Blending of two AC Calcs as written by Roganzar.
Unarmored Defense Specifically states it is 10+Dex+Wis.
Natural Armor is 13+Dex. (Lizardfolk example given).
Two different AC calculations so the player just needs to pick one.
So it's not that AC 23 (13+5+5 (20 in both stats for example)) is crazy high but that is not accounting for any magical modifiers including stats beyond 20.
the real problem though is It sets a precedent of using two AC calculations at the same time and this is a problem for a whole host of others. Barb/monks, Druid Monks, Barb/druids Lizardfolk Druid/monks etc.
Simplicity is if you have multiple options, work them all out and pick the one you want.
Ooookay. I regret asking.
😂
sorry, man, but that reads *very* overwraught*.
And i I find the idea that guns are bad for DnD laughable.
But mostly, it's a subclass. The rest of the class isn't even mechanical, it infuses magic into things and crafts wondrous items. The other subclass makes magical potions. That is an Artificer.
Reflavor the "gun" as a siege staff or a magically empowered heavy crossbow, and it fits fine in Eberron.
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That's some great stuff your player is doing and at the core of the intent of Eberron.
Back on to Warforged. I have a few players that don't think Warforged should be a player race. Please put down the enchanted pitchforks and everburning torches. Their reasoning is that Warforged are to "alien" a mindset. That they don't have enough to connect them to other organic races. (Don't need to eat or sleep for example.) I can understand this, don't entirely agree, but I see where their coming from. So, in the spirit of Eberron and thought experiments, how do you convince players and GMs that Warforged as a race, not just a stat block, are a worthy race to play? I have many thoughts on this but looking for more.
They're cool magic robot guys won't fly.
Well, I think the arguments are close to the same as with all sentient golems, whether they be mechanical and futuristic, like Data from Star Trek, or magical like Warforged. Or something in between.
I will say that I think warforged are closer to organics than androids are, though. They experience emotional responses to things. They feel fear, love, compassion, they need purpose, they can be emotionally damaged, and feel physical damage. Not needing to eat or sleep isn't, imo, anywhere in the same league as living for a thousand years, when it comes to alien mindset.
For me, part of the point of roleplaying games is to inhabit a somehwat alien mind, to explore strange new worlds not just in terms of the actual play world, but also in terms of the lived experiences, biases, and general gnosis of a creature that is very different from me.
Through the lense of the alien, we can gain a new perspective on the familiar
I certainly think that is worthwhile. And fun! And challenging, which is its own kind of fun.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
You haven't really explained why it isn't, and what little you have said, I've refuted with no response.
One subclass is "mechanical". The base class isn't, the alchemist certainly isn't. The mechanical servant, I suppose, is, but...that is just fluff.
The class shouldn't be flavored for Eberron with sidebars for everywhere else, it should have sidebars for what flavor is different in Eberron. The mechanical servant probably won't even make it to the next iteration of the class, anyway, bc I've not seen anyone say they like it, even those of us who love the class overall.
But if it does, in Eberron it is a magical construct instead of a magically brought to life mechanical one. That...isn't a significant difference. That is a sidebar, at most.
What does the class actually do? Infuse Magic, cast spells from a very appropriate list, create wondrous items, get expertise with the tools used to interact with the general magic item crafting rules, analyze magical effects and properties reliably and without using spell slots or components, Attune more magic terms than others can, and then what the subclasses do.
I do think they should replace the companion with the ability to make a weapon do elemental damage, boost armor temporarily, create healing infusions, and later recharge charges on magic items, but I'd also be fine with that living in spells and subclass features. I'd also give all artificers Mending and Healing Elixer as cantrips.
In fact, the subclasses are meaty enough, that a Cannith Maker, Self Forged, Battle Engineer (replace gunsmith, with multiple weapon options), and some new spells, and I really 100% can't imagine it not playing like an Eberron Artificer.
The fact it can also play differently to that, is a good thing.
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Btw, if you haven't read it, Kieth Baker did a post on this, and I mostly just agree with him. Especially in the update at the bottom.
http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-the-evolving-artificer/
Basically, he seems to conclude that the Artificer needs some purely cosmetic relfavoring in Eberron, to lose the construct companion (or at least make it optional, and not large), and add some Eberron specific subclasses and spells. Other than that, it does what he wants an artificer class to do, or is at least within "small tweaks" range of it.
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Never been a fan of guns myself. They either are way better than anything else or end up doing as much damage as an arrow which seems silly.
Agreed on all points.
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I get where you're coming from, but I gotta disagree completely on the relfavoring of the gun thing. IMO, it's a very, very, cosmetic difference. Literally just call the gun a crossbow that charges lightning magic into its bolts, and suddenly it's an Eberronian Battle Engineer, completely at home on the battlefields of the Last War.
Same deal with reflavoring the Alchemists potions as infusions. Just...describe them as that, instead?
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The highest AC a thing can have is 25.
Barbarian/wizard (Bladesinger)
10+5 (CON mod)+5 (INT mod)+5 (DEX mod)+5 (2+3 shield).
No more.
Also, if you say that Warforged are overpowered, let me remind you that most of the volo's guide (WHICH ARE LEGAL) are pretty powerful.
e.g. Goliaths have proficeiuncy in athletics, can reduce damage once by d12+con mod, And are NATURALLY acclimated to +20,000 feet.
Lizardfolk have a natural weapon, Natural armor, 2 skills, swimming speed, can make stuff in a short rest, and can hold breath for a while.
Tritons can cast some water spells, breath water, swim, talk to water creatures, and ignore deep water drawbacks.
Bugbears can carry more, deal more damage on the first turn, stealth skill, and can attack from 5 feet more away.
Yuan-ti purebloods are the only player races that cannot be affected AT ALL by poison, they know poison spray and suggestion, and can charm snake at-will. oh, and did i menton that THEY HAVE SPELL RESISTANCE?
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Tabaxi Bard Level 15
DM in the kobold fight club "Yes i know this is insane, but my usual players are murderhobos."
Birdman in adventures in faerun "Flapping wings" (telepathy) "The enemies are overwhelming us, i'll go break their minds."
Irthos Bladesinger in trouble in timberbottom (DED)
(All PbP)
We do bones, motherf***ker!