Agreed...my theory is that casters were mostly balanced with cantrips with 1-2 leveled spells per combat in mind. However, with the way people ACTUALLY play the game its more like casters can utilize about a 1/3 or more of their spell slots in one combat as there tends to be more like 1-2 encounters per short rest or about 3-4 encounters total per day.
Part of it is some classes recovering a lot on short rests instead of long rests. The bigger part is being allowed have long rests in safety too frequently, I think. That's admittedly not the easiest thing to manage for a DM, outside houserules that flat-out restrict how often the party can benefit from a long rest (which, honestly, is not a bad idea) and dropping random encounters on the PCs every other long rest just to force a sense of danger. If the players get regular opportunities to take a long rest without negative repercussions, I can't really blame them for it.
Agree...its just easier to set up sessions with a long rest being the break between them and honestly I read the modules and they are either hilariously strong encounters with a TPK that is very likely or its a cake walk encounter where I do not anticipate spells being utilized. I feel like most random encounter tables generally produce "easy" encounters (as defined by the encounter calc) but ultimately are just super cakewalks.
Agreed...my theory is that casters were mostly balanced with cantrips with 1-2 leveled spells per combat in mind.
While that is also true, it wasn't what I was talking about. Higher level casters have strategic scale magics that don't particularly break balance for dungeon crawls but really disrupt other stuff.
Agreed...my theory is that casters were mostly balanced with cantrips with 1-2 leveled spells per combat in mind.
While that is also true, it wasn't what I was talking about. Higher level casters have strategic scale magics that don't particularly break balance for dungeon crawls but really disrupt other stuff.
They finally shared a small preview of some of their class changes. While I really like the concept of added maneuvers to Martials and expanding on the Exploration pillar of the game, the class reworks they have shown are complete garbage in my opinion. Oh well. I am still holding out hope for some WotC to do something cool in 2024.
You know, the more I see coming out from this project, the more I'm becoming intrigued with it. I don't know how many of the changes they've made I'd necessarily run with (and frankly would be impossible anyway with how my current table is geographically separate from one another) but I think I might pick this up when it comes out.
They finally shared a small preview of some of their class changes. While I really like the concept of added maneuvers to Martials and expanding on the Exploration pillar of the game, the class reworks they have shown are complete garbage in my opinion. Oh well. I am still holding out hope for some WotC to do something cool in 2024.
Do you mind describing how they are garbage to you?
The O5E warlock was a pretty awesome class to begin with, and its highly-modular nature lined up better with the design sensibilities of Level Up than a lot of the other classes, so it’s perhaps a bit surprising that even with those considerations in mind, it’s probably one of the most-improved classes in the game, especially when you consider the rebalancing effect the changes have on multiclassing.
The first notable change is that while warlocks are still a short-rest caster, their spells run on a pool of points rather than a tiny number of spell slots. This does a couple of good things: the first is that it gives a warlock PC a lot more flexibility and a bit more to do between rests than their O5E counterparts. Being able to use a small number of points on a low-level utility spell and still have some resources left if you really need to blast something is both an upgrade to mechanical versatility and in-play variety of playing a warlock. Having the spellcasting run on a class-specific resource also means that you need to use the warlock’s spellcasting to actually cast your spells rather than as a quick-recharging pool of sorcery points or fuel for Divine Smite like it was tempting to do in O5E.
Another significant change is that Eldritch Blast is no longer a cantrip, but rather is a class feature of the warlock. This also has multiple positive effects; for one thing, making it into a class feature gave the designers more flexibility to explore new forms of eldritch power, and Eldritch Blast now comes in four distinct forms, all of which behave differently, as you can see in the snippet from the rules above. As a class feature it improves by warlock level, not by character level, which keeps players from “dipping” a level of warlock (or using a feat) for one of the best sources of long-range damage in the game. Notably, now it doesn’t even have to be a long-range source of damage if that’s not what you want for a particular character; though the “old” version is still there for you under the name Eldritch Ray if you prefer that option.
This change means that, among other things, the old paladin/warlock combo that was deadlier in combat in both melee and at a distance than most other classes is no longer a thing, though you can make a single-classed warlock with the ability to operate effectively at a variety of ranges quite easily thanks to the new options. In fact, Pact of the Blade warlocks now get the ability to use their spellcasting attribute for weapon attacks and damage as part of that pact boon rather than that benefit being limited to a specific subclass. And that spellcasting attribute can now be Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma to better represent the type of person that might be in service to a specific patron and the nature of that relationship.
I don't like any of this. Warlock is, in my opinion, the best class to come out of 5e. It already has a versatile design that allows for a variety of builds and playstyles.
The paladin class feels really good in O5E; it hits like a freight train thanks to its Divine Smite ability, and with its d10 hit die, heavy armor proficiency, and healing abilities, they can also stand on the front lines of combat against even big, beefy monsters and feel confident that they can handle what’s coming their way.
The flavor was artificially limited, though, with the connection to the historical knights of Charlemagne constraining the “palette” for the class to a narrower range of concepts than was necessary. Renaming the class to herald opens up different types of divine or ideological messengers, such as the new Inquisitor subclass, which feels more like Solomon Kane than Sir Galahad.
Much like the warlock, the O5E paladin was a favorite class to “dip” or take just a few levels of. This was primarily for Divine Smite, which allowed players to trade spell slots for bonus damage when they hit with melee attacks. The armor and shield proficiencies of the class also represent a significant defensive upgrade over what classes like the sorcerer, warlock, and bard receive by default. Trading spells for damage, while fun, also meant that while the paladin was a spellcaster, they often didn’t really feel like one; it was frequently more desirable to use spell slots for bonus damage than to actually cast spells with them. In fact, this was often so tempting that it led many O5E players to seek out ways of getting more spell slots than the default; multiclass characters with a few levels of paladin and many more of sorcerer, warlock, or bard were a common way to get extra slots to fuel the Divine Smite ability with and/or take some of the limited resource pressure off of Divine Smite so the player could enjoy casting some spells without worrying about not having fuel for their smites. It’s also noteworthy that this was a place where the surveys that we sent out to the community helped the design team. They were able to go into the design process with feedback supporting a version of Divine Smite that wasn’t tied to spell slots already in hand.
On the licensing side of things, there are a number of first-party “smite” spells that our developers couldn’t use for intellectual property reasons, but add depth, texture, and tactical versatility to the class, so there was a desire to have something similar for the herald.
The herald gets around these and other problems with both single-classed and multiclassed characters by making Divine Smite’s damage scale up with the character’s levels in herald rather than being dependent on the level of spell slots they have access to, as you can see in the table above. Heralds also get a set, level-dependent number of uses of Divine Smite and do not have to spend spell slots to use them. Rather than make a new set of “smite” spells, there is now the Empowered Smite feature which kicks in at 4th level and has some of the same functionality, changing the damage type and attaching additional effects, and as an additional incentive to stick with the herald class, there is also Greater Empowered Smite to look forward to at level 8. In keeping with our design philosophy of adding more player choice, each of these class features has multiple options within it, which allows a herald to adapt their attacks to the foe they are fighting.
The herald still has the ability to trade spell slots in; however, it’s just that now they’re the power source for the maneuvers the class gets and additional uses of Empowered Smite, if desired. That means that whenever you use a spell slot, it will do something more interesting than just adding damage to your attack.
Finally, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention one more small change that may have flown under the radar of some folks who looked over the playtest documents: the herald gets cantrips now! The inclusion of those gives herald players some more options to fully realize their character concepts and brings the class more in line with other types of spellcaster.
I also don't care for this very much. Just like the Warlock, much of this is unnecessary change. They start off saying that the Paladin Class feels really good in 5e, but then proceed to describe how they are going to completely change the class.
“For fighter it was killing the sacred cow of action surges. Action surges were one of the biggest sources of cheese with fighters (especially for multiclassing) as it's a direct break on the action economy. I've given fighters a LOT of hopefully more interesting features as a balance to their removal, but when I took the fighter project removing them was one of my main goals.” - Andrew Engelbrite, Lead Designer (Fighter Class)
The O5E warlock was a pretty awesome class to begin with, and its highly-modular nature lined up better with the design sensibilities of Level Up than a lot of the other classes, so it’s perhaps a bit surprising that even with those considerations in mind, it’s probably one of the most-improved classes in the game, especially when you consider the rebalancing effect the changes have on multiclassing.
The first notable change is that while warlocks are still a short-rest caster, their spells run on a pool of points rather than a tiny number of spell slots. This does a couple of good things: the first is that it gives a warlock PC a lot more flexibility and a bit more to do between rests than their O5E counterparts. Being able to use a small number of points on a low-level utility spell and still have some resources left if you really need to blast something is both an upgrade to mechanical versatility and in-play variety of playing a warlock. Having the spellcasting run on a class-specific resource also means that you need to use the warlock’s spellcasting to actually cast your spells rather than as a quick-recharging pool of sorcery points or fuel for Divine Smite like it was tempting to do in O5E.
Another significant change is that Eldritch Blast is no longer a cantrip, but rather is a class feature of the warlock. This also has multiple positive effects; for one thing, making it into a class feature gave the designers more flexibility to explore new forms of eldritch power, and Eldritch Blast now comes in four distinct forms, all of which behave differently, as you can see in the snippet from the rules above. As a class feature it improves by warlock level, not by character level, which keeps players from “dipping” a level of warlock (or using a feat) for one of the best sources of long-range damage in the game. Notably, now it doesn’t even have to be a long-range source of damage if that’s not what you want for a particular character; though the “old” version is still there for you under the name Eldritch Ray if you prefer that option.
This change means that, among other things, the old paladin/warlock combo that was deadlier in combat in both melee and at a distance than most other classes is no longer a thing, though you can make a single-classed warlock with the ability to operate effectively at a variety of ranges quite easily thanks to the new options. In fact, Pact of the Blade warlocks now get the ability to use their spellcasting attribute for weapon attacks and damage as part of that pact boon rather than that benefit being limited to a specific subclass. And that spellcasting attribute can now be Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma to better represent the type of person that might be in service to a specific patron and the nature of that relationship.
I don't like any of this. Warlock is, in my opinion, the best class to come out of 5e. It already has a versatile design that allows for a variety of builds and playstyles.
The paladin class feels really good in O5E; it hits like a freight train thanks to its Divine Smite ability, and with its d10 hit die, heavy armor proficiency, and healing abilities, they can also stand on the front lines of combat against even big, beefy monsters and feel confident that they can handle what’s coming their way.
The flavor was artificially limited, though, with the connection to the historical knights of Charlemagne constraining the “palette” for the class to a narrower range of concepts than was necessary. Renaming the class to herald opens up different types of divine or ideological messengers, such as the new Inquisitor subclass, which feels more like Solomon Kane than Sir Galahad.
Much like the warlock, the O5E paladin was a favorite class to “dip” or take just a few levels of. This was primarily for Divine Smite, which allowed players to trade spell slots for bonus damage when they hit with melee attacks. The armor and shield proficiencies of the class also represent a significant defensive upgrade over what classes like the sorcerer, warlock, and bard receive by default. Trading spells for damage, while fun, also meant that while the paladin was a spellcaster, they often didn’t really feel like one; it was frequently more desirable to use spell slots for bonus damage than to actually cast spells with them. In fact, this was often so tempting that it led many O5E players to seek out ways of getting more spell slots than the default; multiclass characters with a few levels of paladin and many more of sorcerer, warlock, or bard were a common way to get extra slots to fuel the Divine Smite ability with and/or take some of the limited resource pressure off of Divine Smite so the player could enjoy casting some spells without worrying about not having fuel for their smites. It’s also noteworthy that this was a place where the surveys that we sent out to the community helped the design team. They were able to go into the design process with feedback supporting a version of Divine Smite that wasn’t tied to spell slots already in hand.
On the licensing side of things, there are a number of first-party “smite” spells that our developers couldn’t use for intellectual property reasons, but add depth, texture, and tactical versatility to the class, so there was a desire to have something similar for the herald.
The herald gets around these and other problems with both single-classed and multiclassed characters by making Divine Smite’s damage scale up with the character’s levels in herald rather than being dependent on the level of spell slots they have access to, as you can see in the table above. Heralds also get a set, level-dependent number of uses of Divine Smite and do not have to spend spell slots to use them. Rather than make a new set of “smite” spells, there is now the Empowered Smite feature which kicks in at 4th level and has some of the same functionality, changing the damage type and attaching additional effects, and as an additional incentive to stick with the herald class, there is also Greater Empowered Smite to look forward to at level 8. In keeping with our design philosophy of adding more player choice, each of these class features has multiple options within it, which allows a herald to adapt their attacks to the foe they are fighting.
The herald still has the ability to trade spell slots in; however, it’s just that now they’re the power source for the maneuvers the class gets and additional uses of Empowered Smite, if desired. That means that whenever you use a spell slot, it will do something more interesting than just adding damage to your attack.
Finally, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention one more small change that may have flown under the radar of some folks who looked over the playtest documents: the herald gets cantrips now! The inclusion of those gives herald players some more options to fully realize their character concepts and brings the class more in line with other types of spellcaster.
I also don't care for this very much. Just like the Warlock, much of this is unnecessary change. They start off saying that the Paladin Class feels really good in 5e, but then proceed to describe how they are going to completely change the class.
“For fighter it was killing the sacred cow of action surges. Action surges were one of the biggest sources of cheese with fighters (especially for multiclassing) as it's a direct break on the action economy. I've given fighters a LOT of hopefully more interesting features as a balance to their removal, but when I took the fighter project removing them was one of my main goals.” - Andrew Engelbrite, Lead Designer (Fighter Class)
I pretty much stopped reading after this.
So it seems from this the “problem” the designers have decided to fix are hex blade paladins, I mean I can fix that if I want, just don’t allow them at my table.
They have assumed all warlocks always take E blast, so let’s just give them that for free. I do agree that warlocks could possibly have an extra couple of spell slots and maybe 1 - 2 extra spells to allow a little more versatility, really at low level they are forced to either go damage or roleplay but these changes do not strike me as the things the community are crying out for.
The fighter language alone kind of makes me question the statement that they listened to feedback. “My intention as a designer was to do this thing” is not, “I looked at all the fighter feedback online on the questionnaire and then worked to fix those perceived issues”.
So I agree looks like garbage, an effort to just make things more complicated for the sake of it.
The O5E warlock was a pretty awesome class to begin with, and its highly-modular nature lined up better with the design sensibilities of Level Up than a lot of the other classes, so it’s perhaps a bit surprising that even with those considerations in mind, it’s probably one of the most-improved classes in the game, especially when you consider the rebalancing effect the changes have on multiclassing.
The first notable change is that while warlocks are still a short-rest caster, their spells run on a pool of points rather than a tiny number of spell slots. This does a couple of good things: the first is that it gives a warlock PC a lot more flexibility and a bit more to do between rests than their O5E counterparts. Being able to use a small number of points on a low-level utility spell and still have some resources left if you really need to blast something is both an upgrade to mechanical versatility and in-play variety of playing a warlock. Having the spellcasting run on a class-specific resource also means that you need to use the warlock’s spellcasting to actually cast your spells rather than as a quick-recharging pool of sorcery points or fuel for Divine Smite like it was tempting to do in O5E.
Another significant change is that Eldritch Blast is no longer a cantrip, but rather is a class feature of the warlock. This also has multiple positive effects; for one thing, making it into a class feature gave the designers more flexibility to explore new forms of eldritch power, and Eldritch Blast now comes in four distinct forms, all of which behave differently, as you can see in the snippet from the rules above. As a class feature it improves by warlock level, not by character level, which keeps players from “dipping” a level of warlock (or using a feat) for one of the best sources of long-range damage in the game. Notably, now it doesn’t even have to be a long-range source of damage if that’s not what you want for a particular character; though the “old” version is still there for you under the name Eldritch Ray if you prefer that option.
This change means that, among other things, the old paladin/warlock combo that was deadlier in combat in both melee and at a distance than most other classes is no longer a thing, though you can make a single-classed warlock with the ability to operate effectively at a variety of ranges quite easily thanks to the new options. In fact, Pact of the Blade warlocks now get the ability to use their spellcasting attribute for weapon attacks and damage as part of that pact boon rather than that benefit being limited to a specific subclass. And that spellcasting attribute can now be Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma to better represent the type of person that might be in service to a specific patron and the nature of that relationship.
I don't like any of this. Warlock is, in my opinion, the best class to come out of 5e. It already has a versatile design that allows for a variety of builds and playstyles.
The paladin class feels really good in O5E; it hits like a freight train thanks to its Divine Smite ability, and with its d10 hit die, heavy armor proficiency, and healing abilities, they can also stand on the front lines of combat against even big, beefy monsters and feel confident that they can handle what’s coming their way.
The flavor was artificially limited, though, with the connection to the historical knights of Charlemagne constraining the “palette” for the class to a narrower range of concepts than was necessary. Renaming the class to herald opens up different types of divine or ideological messengers, such as the new Inquisitor subclass, which feels more like Solomon Kane than Sir Galahad.
Much like the warlock, the O5E paladin was a favorite class to “dip” or take just a few levels of. This was primarily for Divine Smite, which allowed players to trade spell slots for bonus damage when they hit with melee attacks. The armor and shield proficiencies of the class also represent a significant defensive upgrade over what classes like the sorcerer, warlock, and bard receive by default. Trading spells for damage, while fun, also meant that while the paladin was a spellcaster, they often didn’t really feel like one; it was frequently more desirable to use spell slots for bonus damage than to actually cast spells with them. In fact, this was often so tempting that it led many O5E players to seek out ways of getting more spell slots than the default; multiclass characters with a few levels of paladin and many more of sorcerer, warlock, or bard were a common way to get extra slots to fuel the Divine Smite ability with and/or take some of the limited resource pressure off of Divine Smite so the player could enjoy casting some spells without worrying about not having fuel for their smites. It’s also noteworthy that this was a place where the surveys that we sent out to the community helped the design team. They were able to go into the design process with feedback supporting a version of Divine Smite that wasn’t tied to spell slots already in hand.
On the licensing side of things, there are a number of first-party “smite” spells that our developers couldn’t use for intellectual property reasons, but add depth, texture, and tactical versatility to the class, so there was a desire to have something similar for the herald.
The herald gets around these and other problems with both single-classed and multiclassed characters by making Divine Smite’s damage scale up with the character’s levels in herald rather than being dependent on the level of spell slots they have access to, as you can see in the table above. Heralds also get a set, level-dependent number of uses of Divine Smite and do not have to spend spell slots to use them. Rather than make a new set of “smite” spells, there is now the Empowered Smite feature which kicks in at 4th level and has some of the same functionality, changing the damage type and attaching additional effects, and as an additional incentive to stick with the herald class, there is also Greater Empowered Smite to look forward to at level 8. In keeping with our design philosophy of adding more player choice, each of these class features has multiple options within it, which allows a herald to adapt their attacks to the foe they are fighting.
The herald still has the ability to trade spell slots in; however, it’s just that now they’re the power source for the maneuvers the class gets and additional uses of Empowered Smite, if desired. That means that whenever you use a spell slot, it will do something more interesting than just adding damage to your attack.
Finally, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention one more small change that may have flown under the radar of some folks who looked over the playtest documents: the herald gets cantrips now! The inclusion of those gives herald players some more options to fully realize their character concepts and brings the class more in line with other types of spellcaster.
I also don't care for this very much. Just like the Warlock, much of this is unnecessary change. They start off saying that the Paladin Class feels really good in 5e, but then proceed to describe how they are going to completely change the class.
“For fighter it was killing the sacred cow of action surges. Action surges were one of the biggest sources of cheese with fighters (especially for multiclassing) as it's a direct break on the action economy. I've given fighters a LOT of hopefully more interesting features as a balance to their removal, but when I took the fighter project removing them was one of my main goals.” - Andrew Engelbrite, Lead Designer (Fighter Class)
I pretty much stopped reading after this.
All those excerpts suggest their design philosophy was, "How do we nerf the multiclasses we don't like/think are cheese?"
Which is a very weird way to approach it
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The entire point of Kickstarter is "fund this because you believe in the idea, then take your chances on the execution". Wait And See defeats the whole website.
Frankly, the logic behind some of those snippets makes sense. Warlocks are too constrained by their inadequate spell slots, and short-rest spell recharge produces a lot of unintended consequences DMs keep having headaches over. Paladins are disincentivized to cast spells because their spells are also their Smites, so separating the two resource pools makes sense. Culling Action Surge from fighters will piss them off, and since I have no idea what EN World is giving fighters to compensate I can't judge.
The idea seems to be that they're hoping to give players all of the choice and buildyness people are currently forced to multiclass to get in 5e within each individual class and relegating multiclassing to an actual optional rule, something you do for thematic/story reasons rather than because a specific edge-case multiclass mix is almost strictly better than either single class. I can get behind that design philosophy, though they're definitely not communicating it well.
The entire point of Kickstarter is "fund this because you believe in the idea, then take your chances on the execution". Wait And See defeats the whole website.
Frankly, the logic behind some of those snippets makes sense. Warlocks are too constrained by their inadequate spell slots, and short-rest spell recharge produces a lot of unintended consequences DMs keep having headaches over. Paladins are disincentivized to cast spells because their spells are also their Smites, so separating the two resource pools makes sense. Culling Action Surge from fighters will piss them off, and since I have no idea what EN World is giving fighters to compensate I can't judge.
The idea seems to be that they're hoping to give players all of the choice and buildyness people are currently forced to multiclass to get in 5e within each individual class and relegating multiclassing to an actual optional rule, something you do for thematic/story reasons rather than because a specific edge-case multiclass mix is almost strictly better than either single class. I can get behind that design philosophy, though they're definitely not communicating it well.
I can agree with all this, but I don't like HOW they decided to achieve these things. Especially considering that they expect people to be able to play the standard 5e classes along side their versions of the classes. The extent to which they have reinvented everything makes it hard to believe in that level of compatibility.
I have mixed feelings on the previews Golaryn was kind enough to quote earlier, but then I don't have enough experience to say how better or worse my experience would be with them. I will however say that people are right to question the motives behind the new designs; it almost seems contrarian, like change for the sake of change, rather than listening to feedback. It's one thing to draw the "game designer" card to imply they know better, but that sole mention stands out like a sore thumb across all the mentions of how they sent out surveys and seemed to adequately relay their understanding of the feedback.
Fortunately there's time for anyone who regrets backing this to change their minds. There's 21 days left, so I can't entirely sympathise with those who have buyer's remorse after enough time to edit or outright cancel their pledge given the generous previews given thus far.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
The entire point of Kickstarter is "fund this because you believe in the idea, then take your chances on the execution". Wait And See defeats the whole website.
Frankly, the logic behind some of those snippets makes sense. Warlocks are too constrained by their inadequate spell slots, and short-rest spell recharge produces a lot of unintended consequences DMs keep having headaches over. Paladins are disincentivized to cast spells because their spells are also their Smites, so separating the two resource pools makes sense. Culling Action Surge from fighters will piss them off, and since I have no idea what EN World is giving fighters to compensate I can't judge.
The idea seems to be that they're hoping to give players all of the choice and buildyness people are currently forced to multiclass to get in 5e within each individual class and relegating multiclassing to an actual optional rule, something you do for thematic/story reasons rather than because a specific edge-case multiclass mix is almost strictly better than either single class. I can get behind that design philosophy, though they're definitely not communicating it well.
In exchange for Action Surge, all Fighters get Maneuvers. And a lot of the maneuvers that they get access to apparently let them make another attack, so they sorta still get a minor Action Surge if they want it.
I agree with the changes to Warlocks and Paladins. Although I love those two classes, they aren't perfect, and what ENworld's versions of those classes are doing is something that I think helps them be more balanced and played more as intended by WotC.
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As a backer, I get update emails about the information a lot of you are wondering about, but I thought it was also public domain...? Should be able to see for yourselves HERE.
I've read the design philosophy beneath the changes to the warlock. Elderitch Blast is not a cantrip anymore, is based on warlock levels (not character level), and can only be fueled by Warlock resources. Then they show how Eldritch Blast can be customized, ie: there's the regular 120ft ranged spell attack, but now there's also a saving throw version, a melee version similar to Green Flame Blade and a version with a vampiric effect. They justify all this as a disincentive for players to dip into warlock to take the best features of the warlock without ever intending to actually play a warlock.
They did something similar with the Figther. They axed Action Surge because players were taking it to do cheese with their main class, like casting two spells per turn or going NOVA with smites.
Same deal with Paladins, where players dipped in the class to gain access armor and shield proficiencies and/or smites via spell slots.
They go on to say this:
Multiclassing
Some readers may be starting to feel like Level Up is designed to discourage multiclassing at this point, because the first three classes in this article have been adjusted to make specific multiclass builds less potent, but that’s not at all the case. In fact, the core rules contain eight (or maybe ten; we have two more as stretch goals) sets of what we refer to as synergy feats, which are three-feat chains designed to make a specific concept work. The eight that are in there already enable specific multiclass combinations, and the two that are stretch goals will allow you to play as undead creatures! The aim of the changes was not to discourage multiclassing, but to shut off some unbalancing mix/maxed combinations that are seen by some as “correct” builds.
I'm kind of on board with the sentiment of nuking multiclass combinations that are only taken for 'dips'. However, I've been playing games for 4 decades and there's not one game I have played that offered modular builds that hasn't degenerated into a limited number of 'optimum' builds that are better most of the time. And now they are offering classes with TONS of new options? LOL, they poo poo on the multiclassing cheese that they say exists in 5e while setting themselves up to be in the same 'cheese' zone once players have optimized each class or multiclass in their system.
All they're doing is giving players something fresh to consume. I don't think they are solving anything. They're just saying "We don't like the cheezy builds that have evolved, so we're making a new system where they aren't options. But look at all these carrots we're giving you instead!"
And regarding the whole caster versus martial argument, I find the following situation at my table kind of funny: I'm backing Level Up to have it available for my gaming table to use if they want. (I won't be DM'ing) One particular player is all over this as he thinks martial characters are boring. He's also the player that made a caster class (Cleric) with a martial feel to it, but now he has all these spells the party expects him to use to 'save the day' and he complains that he never gets to hit things with his fancy magical mace that he pushed so hard to get.
However, I've been playing games for 4 decades and there's not one game I have played that offered modular builds that hasn't degenerated into a limited number of 'optimum' builds that are better most of the time.
If you want to make eldritch blast a class ability rather than a cantrip,I'm cool with that but you have to provide it as a class _option_ in a list of alternative class options. Instead of having Eldritch Blast, you can have an option that lets you add Charisma instead of STR orDEX as a bonus to hit.
This could give other warlock builds such as Fiend pact a little more needed boost instead of having only two options Hexblade and eldritch blast
However, I've been playing games for 4 decades and there's not one game I have played that offered modular builds that hasn't degenerated into a limited number of 'optimum' builds that are better most of the time. And now they are offering classes with TONS of new options? LOL, they poo poo on the multiclassing cheese that they say exists in 5e while setting themselves up to be in the same 'cheese' zone once players have optimized each class or multiclass in their system.
Bingo
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Spoilers: even games without modular builds have a limited number of 'optimum' choices. In 5e, paladins are better than rangers. Wizards are better than sorcerers. A mastiff is better than a level 20 Champion fighter. In literally anything ever, there are going to be choices that are better than others. You can't escape it, you can't avoid it, you can't design around it. All you can do is try to make the gap small enough that it matters less, and try to ensure that even your 'bad' options are interesting and worth playing with. Modular build opportunities provide a great many benefits, and in a game like D&D with a GM to ride herd on the worst edge cases and excesses they put a great deal of the "Role" in "Role Playing Game".
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Agree...its just easier to set up sessions with a long rest being the break between them and honestly I read the modules and they are either hilariously strong encounters with a TPK that is very likely or its a cake walk encounter where I do not anticipate spells being utilized. I feel like most random encounter tables generally produce "easy" encounters (as defined by the encounter calc) but ultimately are just super cakewalks.
While that is also true, it wasn't what I was talking about. Higher level casters have strategic scale magics that don't particularly break balance for dungeon crawls but really disrupt other stuff.
Fair point!
They finally shared a small preview of some of their class changes. While I really like the concept of added maneuvers to Martials and expanding on the Exploration pillar of the game, the class reworks they have shown are complete garbage in my opinion. Oh well. I am still holding out hope for some WotC to do something cool in 2024.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You know, the more I see coming out from this project, the more I'm becoming intrigued with it. I don't know how many of the changes they've made I'd necessarily run with (and frankly would be impossible anyway with how my current table is geographically separate from one another) but I think I might pick this up when it comes out.
Do you mind describing how they are garbage to you?
I don't like any of this. Warlock is, in my opinion, the best class to come out of 5e. It already has a versatile design that allows for a variety of builds and playstyles.
I also don't care for this very much. Just like the Warlock, much of this is unnecessary change. They start off saying that the Paladin Class feels really good in 5e, but then proceed to describe how they are going to completely change the class.
I pretty much stopped reading after this.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
So it seems from this the “problem” the designers have decided to fix are hex blade paladins, I mean I can fix that if I want, just don’t allow them at my table.
They have assumed all warlocks always take E blast, so let’s just give them that for free. I do agree that warlocks could possibly have an extra couple of spell slots and maybe 1 - 2 extra spells to allow a little more versatility, really at low level they are forced to either go damage or roleplay but these changes do not strike me as the things the community are crying out for.
The fighter language alone kind of makes me question the statement that they listened to feedback. “My intention as a designer was to do this thing” is not, “I looked at all the fighter feedback online on the questionnaire and then worked to fix those perceived issues”.
So I agree looks like garbage, an effort to just make things more complicated for the sake of it.
All those excerpts suggest their design philosophy was, "How do we nerf the multiclasses we don't like/think are cheese?"
Which is a very weird way to approach it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
So far, it sounds like garbage.
on the bright side, it has hopefully given a bunch of young game designers lessons learned on what not to do.
To paraphrase someone else, the only way to become a good game designer is to write a bunch of shit.
However remember people have paid for this already, proof that sometimes it is best to wait and see with a kickstarter idea.
The entire point of Kickstarter is "fund this because you believe in the idea, then take your chances on the execution". Wait And See defeats the whole website.
Frankly, the logic behind some of those snippets makes sense. Warlocks are too constrained by their inadequate spell slots, and short-rest spell recharge produces a lot of unintended consequences DMs keep having headaches over. Paladins are disincentivized to cast spells because their spells are also their Smites, so separating the two resource pools makes sense. Culling Action Surge from fighters will piss them off, and since I have no idea what EN World is giving fighters to compensate I can't judge.
The idea seems to be that they're hoping to give players all of the choice and buildyness people are currently forced to multiclass to get in 5e within each individual class and relegating multiclassing to an actual optional rule, something you do for thematic/story reasons rather than because a specific edge-case multiclass mix is almost strictly better than either single class. I can get behind that design philosophy, though they're definitely not communicating it well.
Please do not contact or message me.
I can agree with all this, but I don't like HOW they decided to achieve these things. Especially considering that they expect people to be able to play the standard 5e classes along side their versions of the classes. The extent to which they have reinvented everything makes it hard to believe in that level of compatibility.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I have mixed feelings on the previews Golaryn was kind enough to quote earlier, but then I don't have enough experience to say how better or worse my experience would be with them. I will however say that people are right to question the motives behind the new designs; it almost seems contrarian, like change for the sake of change, rather than listening to feedback. It's one thing to draw the "game designer" card to imply they know better, but that sole mention stands out like a sore thumb across all the mentions of how they sent out surveys and seemed to adequately relay their understanding of the feedback.
Fortunately there's time for anyone who regrets backing this to change their minds. There's 21 days left, so I can't entirely sympathise with those who have buyer's remorse after enough time to edit or outright cancel their pledge given the generous previews given thus far.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
In exchange for Action Surge, all Fighters get Maneuvers. And a lot of the maneuvers that they get access to apparently let them make another attack, so they sorta still get a minor Action Surge if they want it.
I agree with the changes to Warlocks and Paladins. Although I love those two classes, they aren't perfect, and what ENworld's versions of those classes are doing is something that I think helps them be more balanced and played more as intended by WotC.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
As a backer, I get update emails about the information a lot of you are wondering about, but I thought it was also public domain...? Should be able to see for yourselves HERE.
I've read the design philosophy beneath the changes to the warlock. Elderitch Blast is not a cantrip anymore, is based on warlock levels (not character level), and can only be fueled by Warlock resources. Then they show how Eldritch Blast can be customized, ie: there's the regular 120ft ranged spell attack, but now there's also a saving throw version, a melee version similar to Green Flame Blade and a version with a vampiric effect. They justify all this as a disincentive for players to dip into warlock to take the best features of the warlock without ever intending to actually play a warlock.
They did something similar with the Figther. They axed Action Surge because players were taking it to do cheese with their main class, like casting two spells per turn or going NOVA with smites.
Same deal with Paladins, where players dipped in the class to gain access armor and shield proficiencies and/or smites via spell slots.
They go on to say this:
Multiclassing
Some readers may be starting to feel like Level Up is designed to discourage multiclassing at this point, because the first three classes in this article have been adjusted to make specific multiclass builds less potent, but that’s not at all the case. In fact, the core rules contain eight (or maybe ten; we have two more as stretch goals) sets of what we refer to as synergy feats, which are three-feat chains designed to make a specific concept work. The eight that are in there already enable specific multiclass combinations, and the two that are stretch goals will allow you to play as undead creatures! The aim of the changes was not to discourage multiclassing, but to shut off some unbalancing mix/maxed combinations that are seen by some as “correct” builds.
I'm kind of on board with the sentiment of nuking multiclass combinations that are only taken for 'dips'. However, I've been playing games for 4 decades and there's not one game I have played that offered modular builds that hasn't degenerated into a limited number of 'optimum' builds that are better most of the time. And now they are offering classes with TONS of new options? LOL, they poo poo on the multiclassing cheese that they say exists in 5e while setting themselves up to be in the same 'cheese' zone once players have optimized each class or multiclass in their system.
All they're doing is giving players something fresh to consume. I don't think they are solving anything. They're just saying "We don't like the cheezy builds that have evolved, so we're making a new system where they aren't options. But look at all these carrots we're giving you instead!"
And regarding the whole caster versus martial argument, I find the following situation at my table kind of funny: I'm backing Level Up to have it available for my gaming table to use if they want. (I won't be DM'ing) One particular player is all over this as he thinks martial characters are boring. He's also the player that made a caster class (Cleric) with a martial feel to it, but now he has all these spells the party expects him to use to 'save the day' and he complains that he never gets to hit things with his fancy magical mace that he pushed so hard to get.
Have you played Conan D20 from Mongoose?
If you want to make eldritch blast a class ability rather than a cantrip,I'm cool with that but you have to provide it as a class _option_ in a list of alternative class options. Instead of having Eldritch Blast, you can have an option that lets you add Charisma instead of STR orDEX as a bonus to hit.
This could give other warlock builds such as Fiend pact a little more needed boost instead of having only two options Hexblade and eldritch blast
Bingo
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Spoilers: even games without modular builds have a limited number of 'optimum' choices. In 5e, paladins are better than rangers. Wizards are better than sorcerers. A mastiff is better than a level 20 Champion fighter. In literally anything ever, there are going to be choices that are better than others. You can't escape it, you can't avoid it, you can't design around it. All you can do is try to make the gap small enough that it matters less, and try to ensure that even your 'bad' options are interesting and worth playing with. Modular build opportunities provide a great many benefits, and in a game like D&D with a GM to ride herd on the worst edge cases and excesses they put a great deal of the "Role" in "Role Playing Game".
Please do not contact or message me.