Good people of D&D Beyond--we can do it. We can kill this thread. If we work together, we can dream of a better future where these stupid arguments about 100% optional rules don't result in ~30 pages of wasted bytes and bruised fingertips. We can live in a cyberspace free of circular and perpendicular arguments based on rules that we haven't yet seen. I believe that each and every one of you has the courage to do the right thing... to unsubscribe from this thread... to stop posting clones of it... to let the last post be the last post, and walk away. We can show the mods that we're capable of locking a thread all on our own!
Who's with me!? <crickets chirping>
l, If you wanna call races 'species' call it that, we aren't stopping you. But you can't force me to.
The more you know....
A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society.
Therefore elves, humans, orcs, etc are different species, not different races.
It is actually quite an interesting topic from a scientific point of view. Grizzly and Polar bears are considered distinct species, but thanks to Global Warming, their territories now overlap, and there is at least one known hybrid. Various whales have been known to cross breed (Fin-Blue's have been documented various times). No one questions that the various bears and whales are not separate species, but I am betting that a zoologist could rhyme off a ton of examples of cross species breeding in many many different Genus, perhaps even Family.
Within the confines of accepted D&D species (PHB primarily, guess we can stretch that to MM, Mord's, Volo's and one case in Eberron), Humans are quite fecund. I think they are the ones that can cross-breed with the most species. I would love to know how an evolutionary biologist would quantify/ qualify Yaun-Ti, given all the presentations within one species.
And from a cultural point of view, I am loathe to think of all the fantastic work in Mord's that is going to be erased in the inevitable re-write.
this was not on the topic of half-elves and half-orcs???
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
And in all honesty this happens in real life! Look at the Olympics? Why are the majority of Kenyans the olympic gold medal runners and white people Olympic gold medal swimmers? because they have a 'racial' affinity for these sports. Sure, someone of a different race can be good or better but with the same exact training and same length of training they are at biological disadvantage.
your other parts are valid in an dnd setting but i highly doubt this is an genetic component irl, it probably has more to do with geography, culture, economics and sheer coincidence more than anything else
Good people of D&D Beyond--we can do it. We can kill this thread. If we work together, we can dream of a better future where these stupid arguments about 100% optional rules don't result in ~30 pages of wasted bytes and bruised fingertips. We can live in a cyberspace free of circular and perpendicular arguments based on rules that we haven't yet seen. I believe that each and every one of you has the courage to do the right thing... to unsubscribe from this thread... to stop posting clones of it... to let the last post be the last post, and walk away. We can show the mods that we're capable of locking a thread all on our own!
Who's with me!? <crickets chirping>
l, If you wanna call races 'species' call it that, we aren't stopping you. But you can't force me to.
The more you know....
A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society.
Therefore elves, humans, orcs, etc are different species, not different races.
It is actually quite an interesting topic from a scientific point of view. Grizzly and Polar bears are considered distinct species, but thanks to Global Warming, their territories now overlap, and there is at least one known hybrid. Various whales have been known to cross breed (Fin-Blue's have been documented various times). No one questions that the various bears and whales are not separate species, but I am betting that a zoologist could rhyme off a ton of examples of cross species breeding in many many different Genus, perhaps even Family.
Within the confines of accepted D&D species (PHB primarily, guess we can stretch that to MM, Mord's, Volo's and one case in Eberron), Humans are quite fecund. I think they are the ones that can cross-breed with the most species. I would love to know how an evolutionary biologist would quantify/ qualify Yaun-Ti, given all the presentations within one species.
And from a cultural point of view, I am loathe to think of all the fantastic work in Mord's that is going to be erased in the inevitable re-write.
Ummm this is a fantasy setting with no grounding in reality. As soon as Aasimar and Tortles start walking around in rl and people can wildshape into dire wolves, then we can have this conversation.
For all we know Orcs and Elves cross breed all the time as well dwarves, Genasi, halfings and gnomes. Hell it doesn’t what the race, Bards seem to be able to mate with anything.
In some planes, yes. In the Wildemount book there are no such hatred. There are other planes and worlds that elves and Orcs can and do work side by side and don’t hate each other(homemade campaigns do that.)
It is D&D, The DM can set a lot in their worlds. If you want Elves and Orcs to hate each other, this is fine. If other DMs have them not hate each other then this is fine also.
that is an general trend, to which there will always be exceptions. If history has taught us anything is that social stigma will not stop horny people, and so an half-elf-half-orc is shure to have one hell of an story for how their parents met if in the forgotten realms. In a place like ebberon it might be less rare and could occur from a pair of gatekeeper druids (one ebberon orc, one wood elf) who were both stationed to watch over the same sigil and who fell in love, in the forgotten realms their mother might have been an wild elf barbarian that impressed an orc war chief with her combat prowess, it might have been a case of stockholm syndrome with one being an prisoner that the other was not allowed to kill on the spot due to allies during an armed conflict, it might have been an drow priestess who dominated and enslaved an orc using magic to keep as an bedroom toy, they might have been forced to work together in an adventuring party to save their repective homelands from an outside threat, during which they slowly gained an begrudging respect for each other that over the course of time developed into friendship and then later romance, like whatever the case is not something normal and their parents were likely exceptional individuals, ones with class levels,
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
that is an general trend, to which there will always be exceptions. If history has taught us anything is that social stigma will not stop horny people, and so an half-elf-half-orc is shure to have one hell of an story for how their parents met if in the forgotten realms. In a place like ebberon it might be less rare and could occur from a pair of gatekeeper druids (one ebberon orc, one wood elf) who were both stationed to watch over the same sigil and who fell in love, in the forgotten realms their mother might have been an wild elf barbarian that impressed an orc war chief with her combat prowess, it might have been a case of stockholm syndrome with one being an prisoner that the other was not allowed to kill on the spot due to allies during an armed conflict, it might have been an drow priestess who dominated and enslaved an orc using magic to keep as an bedroom toy, they might have been forced to work together in an adventuring party to save their repective homelands from an outside threat, during which they slowly gained an begrudging respect for each other that over the course of time developed into friendship and then later romance, like whatever the case is not something normal and their parents were likely exceptional individuals, ones with class levels,
I mean yeah, but they're more likely to kill eachother than reproduce with eachother as a general rule: that's all i'm saying.
Here is what I don’t understand about the “But what if I am forced to play this due to AL/DM/some other reason” argument. the answer is a two step process.
1) open your PHB
2) use the new methodology to assign yourself the standard orc stats & traits
Like you are complaining that you are getting served bread when you want toast, well the toaster is right there make toast, make all the toast you want. Just don’t get in the face of the people that don’t want toast.
It’s a new system that allows you to 100% keep playing the way you want without any problem while allowing people that want change to play 100% the way they want in a way they can’t now. (except you know homebrew variants of races has existed since day 1 of 5e and there is even a guide in the PHB on how to do this so really not sure why making it easier for them to do so has you wound up)
D&D is a game of imagination and role play, the enemy of which is being told “no you can’t”. So what are you guys angry about? not because you are being told you can’t do something the old way any more (countless articles quote the interview with Crawford where he explicitly says you can), literally nothing is being taken away from you. It’s not going to effect your games at all, because you have stated you won’t use it.
So are you upset that others will, that will be able to find enjoyment in D&D in a way you don’t agree with? Seriously what is the cause here? What is a win for you?
that is an general trend, to which there will always be exceptions. If history has taught us anything is that social stigma will not stop horny people, and so an half-elf-half-orc is shure to have one hell of an story for how their parents met if in the forgotten realms. In a place like ebberon it might be less rare and could occur from a pair of gatekeeper druids (one ebberon orc, one wood elf) who were both stationed to watch over the same sigil and who fell in love, in the forgotten realms their mother might have been an wild elf barbarian that impressed an orc war chief with her combat prowess, it might have been a case of stockholm syndrome with one being an prisoner that the other was not allowed to kill on the spot due to allies during an armed conflict, it might have been an drow priestess who dominated and enslaved an orc using magic to keep as an bedroom toy, they might have been forced to work together in an adventuring party to save their repective homelands from an outside threat, during which they slowly gained an begrudging respect for each other that over the course of time developed into friendship and then later romance, like whatever the case is not something normal and their parents were likely exceptional individuals, ones with class levels,
I mean yeah, but they're more likely to kill eachother than reproduce with eachother as a general rule: that's all i'm saying.
yeah shure, but it aint impossible and will probably happen at some point in any setting
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Here is what I don’t understand about the “But what if I am forced to play this due to AL/DM/some other reason” argument. the answer is a two step process.
1) open your PHB
2) use the new methodology to assign yourself the standard orc stats & traits
Like you are complaining that you are getting served bread when you want toast, well the toaster is right there make toast, make all the toast you want. Just don’t get in the face of the people that don’t want toast.
It’s a new system that allows you to 100% keep playing the way you want without any problem while allowing people that want change to play 100% the way they want in a way they can’t now. (except you know homebrew variants of races has existed since day 1 of 5e and there is even a guide in the PHB on how to do this so really not sure why making it easier for them to do so has you wound up)
D&D is a game of imagination and role play, the enemy of which is being told “no you can’t”. So what are you guys angry about? not because you are being told you can’t do something the old way any more (countless articles quote the interview with Crawford where he explicitly says you can), literally nothing is being taken away from you. It’s not going to effect your games at all, because you have stated you won’t use it.
So are you upset that others will, that will be able to find enjoyment in D&D in a way you don’t agree with? Seriously what is the cause here? What is a win for you?
i think you are talking about the thing from the DMG about altering proficiencies to fit new cultures?? there are no guidelines for homebrew in the player's handbook
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Here is what I don’t understand about the “But what if I am forced to play this due to AL/DM/some other reason” argument. the answer is a two step process.
1) open your PHB
2) use the new methodology to assign yourself the standard orc stats & traits
Like you are complaining that you are getting served bread when you want toast, well the toaster is right there make toast, make all the toast you want. Just don’t get in the face of the people that don’t want toast.
It’s a new system that allows you to 100% keep playing the way you want without any problem while allowing people that want change to play 100% the way they want in a way they can’t now. (except you know homebrew variants of races has existed since day 1 of 5e and there is even a guide in the PHB on how to do this so really not sure why making it easier for them to do so has you wound up)
D&D is a game of imagination and role play, the enemy of which is being told “no you can’t”. So what are you guys angry about? not because you are being told you can’t do something the old way any more (countless articles quote the interview with Crawford where he explicitly says you can), literally nothing is being taken away from you. It’s not going to effect your games at all, because you have stated you won’t use it.
So are you upset that others will, that will be able to find enjoyment in D&D in a way you don’t agree with? Seriously what is the cause here? What is a win for you?
We're not angry... we just don't feel like it's necessary and it's gonna make it harder to play keeping track of it all, and it ignores basic physiology.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
that is an general trend, to which there will always be exceptions. If history has taught us anything is that social stigma will not stop horny people, and so an half-elf-half-orc is shure to have one hell of an story for how their parents met if in the forgotten realms. In a place like ebberon it might be less rare and could occur from a pair of gatekeeper druids (one ebberon orc, one wood elf) who were both stationed to watch over the same sigil and who fell in love, in the forgotten realms their mother might have been an wild elf barbarian that impressed an orc war chief with her combat prowess, it might have been a case of stockholm syndrome with one being an prisoner that the other was not allowed to kill on the spot due to allies during an armed conflict, it might have been an drow priestess who dominated and enslaved an orc using magic to keep as an bedroom toy, they might have been forced to work together in an adventuring party to save their repective homelands from an outside threat, during which they slowly gained an begrudging respect for each other that over the course of time developed into friendship and then later romance, like whatever the case is not something normal and their parents were likely exceptional individuals, ones with class levels,
I mean yeah, but they're more likely to kill eachother than reproduce with eachother as a general rule: that's all i'm saying.
yeah shure, but it aint impossible and will probably happen at some point in any setting
I mean yeah bc ppl, but in general: elves hate orcs I was just pointing it out... not saying that there aren't exceptions, but they do hate eachother most of the time.
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Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
" We're not angry... we just don't feel like it's necessary and it's gonna make it harder to play keeping track of it all, and it ignores basic physiology." ~I Love Tarrasques
Trust me. Plenty of people are very angry.
The Six Sacred Scores already ignore basic physiology. Think that's what my brain was driving at when I was arguing numbers earlier - the Six Sacred Scores are such a piss-miserable excuse for modeling physical and mental traits of a critter that only inertia and nostalgia is keeping them going. People just don't know what to do when an RPG system throws the Sacred Six out the window and tries to create a system more in line with how their game, or how reality, works.
There are, basically, two types of DM insofar as this discussion goes. So-called 'home game' DMs, running regular D&D, and AL DMs, who're stuck running Adventurer's League. Home DMs can AND SHOULD be vetting their players' character sheets before signing off on that character. Even if it's just a two-minute once-over to make sure everything seems in order. AL DMs don't have the luxury of doing that, but they're also not responsible for the player following the Unbreakable Adamantine Rules +7 of AL. If the player comes in and does something egregious, such as try to spend ten thousand gold at level 1, then the DM steps in. if the player sneaks a point where it theoretically shouldn't be in AL but nobody notices? Then nobody noticed, and thus had their Theoretical Regulations-Approved Corporate Standard Issue Good Time ruined by cheaters.
In neither case does the existence of this rule cause any complication anyone who's capable of running a D&D game in the first place cannot handle. Either you have a spine and say to your players "no Tasha's Cauldron rules, I will be checking", or you just fail to care. Especially since the vast majority of players will abide by their DM's restrictions on character generation without a fight in the first place. Very few players are out there consistently trying to Put One Over on the DM, so why continue to worry about it?
Vince Snetterton's ready to ban 5e from his 5e games over orcs being allowed to have an Intelligence score over 6.
This thread would be at least partially productive if you would simply stop misrepresenting other people's opinions with these continued strawman arguments. It is both inaccurate and unnecessarily hostile, and certainly does not foster communication.
Fair enough. Comment in contention removed. Though to be fair in turn, I have not tracked the man to other threads he's posting in and started fistfights with him in those. That makes one of us.
Nevertheless. I maintain that the numbers do not matter to some players, save that there be enough of them in the right places for the character to function in approximately the manner the player desires them to. The numbers mean nothing, they're an abstraction of an abstraction, and their only function is to serve as a mechanical engine to drive uncertainty. Why, in this case, a player should not be permitted to put their numbers where they like within the restrictions and limitations imposed by the mechanical engine, I do not know.
If a given table decides that the rule is bologna and that a given species must have high numbers in Sacred Score X and low numbers in Sacred Score Y regardless of any sort of background justification, that is no business of mine and that table may do as it pleases. Save for attempting to tell me NOT to use the new rules, endorsed by the people who're calling themselves the designers of the game and the custodians of that mechanical engine, because they're afraid of the consequences should this new rule prove popular and successful. Their fear has no bearing on my table, and I will use the new rule or not as my friends and I see fit.
Just as I have to choke down the fact that these same people ruined psionics due to their fear of New Rules causing havoc with their oversimplified 5e ruleset - which furthermore locks in ALL psionic offerings in the future and will thus go on to ruin many more books, sadly - they will have to choke down the fact that these new optional rules for character generation are here for those who want more out of their game. Or for those to whom the numbers are a distraction and annoyance when setting up a character and for whom the additional freedom is welcome.
" We're not angry... we just don't feel like it's necessary and it's gonna make it harder to play keeping track of it all, and it ignores basic physiology." ~I Love Tarrasques
Trust me. Plenty of people are very angry.
The Six Sacred Scores already ignore basic physiology. Think that's what my brain was driving at when I was arguing numbers earlier - the Six Sacred Scores are such a piss-miserable excuse for modeling physical and mental traits of a critter that only inertia and nostalgia is keeping them going. People just don't know what to do when an RPG system throws the Sacred Six out the window and tries to create a system more in line with how their game, or how reality, works.
There are, basically, two types of DM insofar as this discussion goes. So-called 'home game' DMs, running regular D&D, and AL DMs, who're stuck running Adventurer's League. Home DMs can AND SHOULD be vetting their players' character sheets before signing off on that character. Even if it's just a two-minute once-over to make sure everything seems in order. AL DMs don't have the luxury of doing that, but they're also not responsible for the player following the Unbreakable Adamantine Rules +7 of AL. If the player comes in and does something egregious, such as try to spend ten thousand gold at level 1, then the DM steps in. if the player sneaks a point where it theoretically shouldn't be in AL but nobody notices? Then nobody noticed, and thus had their Theoretical Regulations-Approved Corporate Standard Issue Good Time ruined by cheaters.
In neither case does the existence of this rule cause any complication anyone who's capable of running a D&D game in the first place cannot handle. Either you have a spine and say to your players "no Tasha's Cauldron rules, I will be checking", or you just fail to care. Especially since the vast majority of players will abide by their DM's restrictions on character generation without a fight in the first place. Very few players are out there consistently trying to Put One Over on the DM, so why continue to worry about it?
You're probably right. I prefer 5e rules and will continue to play them, but everybody does themselves ig. Arguing this topic on 10 different threads is dumb.
the Six Sacred Scores are such a piss-miserable excuse for modeling physical and mental traits of a critter that only inertia and nostalgia is keeping them going.
Eh,I have some issues with Wis (Int appears to be academics, Cha is social skills, and Wis is an incoherent mush of leftovers), and the division of tasks between Str and Dex is somewhat fishy, but they're not horrible, most variant systems I run into are no better.
the Six Sacred Scores are such a piss-miserable excuse for modeling physical and mental traits of a critter that only inertia and nostalgia is keeping them going.
Eh,I have some issues with Wis (Int appears to be academics, Cha is social skills, and Wis is an incoherent mush of leftovers), and the division of tasks between Str and Dex is somewhat fishy, but they're not horrible, most variant systems I run into are no better.
It's more broken or not so much broken as "odd if you think about it" than that. Charisma _used_ to be social skills and still contains them but it also seems to be more on track with something like WILL. Warlock I can see CHR being the magic stat in that it's magic is from currying favor in pacts/patronage. Sorcerers though, they're conduits of raw magic and I just don't see being socially adept being a thing. I'd also argue that Arcane Tricksters for similar reasons should be CHR based, to reflect that the Rogues magic tricks are not via years of study but more acquired "by hook or by crook" and their spell books probably resemble something more along the lines of Sparknotes than a Wizards traditional tome.
Intelligence is to a degree "learned knowledge" and Wisdom is more having a good understanding, so where does quick wittedness or savoir faire fit in? My biggest peeve is still CON that it's a PC s stat for marathon type endurance, immune system, and ability to roll with a punch or other physical blow. But the game isn't _really_ simulationist on a number of levels, and I still have fun playing.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Here is what I don’t understand about the “But what if I am forced to play this due to AL/DM/some other reason” argument. the answer is a two step process.
1) open your PHB
2) use the new methodology to assign yourself the standard orc stats & traits
Like you are complaining that you are getting served bread when you want toast, well the toaster is right there make toast, make all the toast you want. Just don’t get in the face of the people that don’t want toast.
It’s a new system that allows you to 100% keep playing the way you want without any problem while allowing people that want change to play 100% the way they want in a way they can’t now. (except you know homebrew variants of races has existed since day 1 of 5e and there is even a guide in the PHB on how to do this so really not sure why making it easier for them to do so has you wound up)
D&D is a game of imagination and role play, the enemy of which is being told “no you can’t”. So what are you guys angry about? not because you are being told you can’t do something the old way any more (countless articles quote the interview with Crawford where he explicitly says you can), literally nothing is being taken away from you. It’s not going to effect your games at all, because you have stated you won’t use it.
So are you upset that others will, that will be able to find enjoyment in D&D in a way you don’t agree with? Seriously what is the cause here? What is a win for you?
We're not angry... we just don't feel like it's necessary and it's gonna make it harder to play keeping track of it all, and it ignores basic physiology.
Can I ask why? why is having an elf that doesn't have darkvision and has +2 strength and +1 con harder to manage than a regular elf?
i think you are talking about the thing from the DMG about altering proficiencies to fit new cultures?? there are no guidelines for homebrew in the player's handbook
Creating New Character Options
If the options for player characters in the Player’s Handbook don’t meet all the needs of your campaign, consult the following sections for advice on creating new race, class, and background options.
this was not on the topic of half-elves and half-orcs???
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I agree. mostly culture.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Ummm this is a fantasy setting with no grounding in reality. As soon as Aasimar and Tortles start walking around in rl and people can wildshape into dire wolves, then we can have this conversation.
For all we know Orcs and Elves cross breed all the time as well dwarves, Genasi, halfings and gnomes. Hell it doesn’t what the race, Bards seem to be able to mate with anything.
Except elves hate orcs.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
In some planes, yes. In the Wildemount book there are no such hatred. There are other planes and worlds that elves and Orcs can and do work side by side and don’t hate each other(homemade campaigns do that.)
It is D&D, The DM can set a lot in their worlds. If you want Elves and Orcs to hate each other, this is fine. If other DMs have them not hate each other then this is fine also.
that is an general trend, to which there will always be exceptions. If history has taught us anything is that social stigma will not stop horny people, and so an half-elf-half-orc is shure to have one hell of an story for how their parents met if in the forgotten realms. In a place like ebberon it might be less rare and could occur from a pair of gatekeeper druids (one ebberon orc, one wood elf) who were both stationed to watch over the same sigil and who fell in love, in the forgotten realms their mother might have been an wild elf barbarian that impressed an orc war chief with her combat prowess, it might have been a case of stockholm syndrome with one being an prisoner that the other was not allowed to kill on the spot due to allies during an armed conflict, it might have been an drow priestess who dominated and enslaved an orc using magic to keep as an bedroom toy, they might have been forced to work together in an adventuring party to save their repective homelands from an outside threat, during which they slowly gained an begrudging respect for each other that over the course of time developed into friendship and then later romance, like whatever the case is not something normal and their parents were likely exceptional individuals, ones with class levels,
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I mean yeah, but they're more likely to kill eachother than reproduce with eachother as a general rule: that's all i'm saying.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Here is what I don’t understand about the “But what if I am forced to play this due to AL/DM/some other reason” argument. the answer is a two step process.
1) open your PHB
2) use the new methodology to assign yourself the standard orc stats & traits
Like you are complaining that you are getting served bread when you want toast, well the toaster is right there make toast, make all the toast you want. Just don’t get in the face of the people that don’t want toast.
It’s a new system that allows you to 100% keep playing the way you want without any problem while allowing people that want change to play 100% the way they want in a way they can’t now. (except you know homebrew variants of races has existed since day 1 of 5e and there is even a guide in the PHB on how to do this so really not sure why making it easier for them to do so has you wound up)
D&D is a game of imagination and role play, the enemy of which is being told “no you can’t”. So what are you guys angry about? not because you are being told you can’t do something the old way any more (countless articles quote the interview with Crawford where he explicitly says you can), literally nothing is being taken away from you. It’s not going to effect your games at all, because you have stated you won’t use it.
So are you upset that others will, that will be able to find enjoyment in D&D in a way you don’t agree with? Seriously what is the cause here? What is a win for you?
yeah shure, but it aint impossible and will probably happen at some point in any setting
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
i think you are talking about the thing from the DMG about altering proficiencies to fit new cultures?? there are no guidelines for homebrew in the player's handbook
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
We're not angry... we just don't feel like it's necessary and it's gonna make it harder to play keeping track of it all, and it ignores basic physiology.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
I mean yeah bc ppl, but in general: elves hate orcs I was just pointing it out... not saying that there aren't exceptions, but they do hate eachother most of the time.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
" We're not angry... we just don't feel like it's necessary and it's gonna make it harder to play keeping track of it all, and it ignores basic physiology."
~I Love Tarrasques
Trust me. Plenty of people are very angry.
The Six Sacred Scores already ignore basic physiology. Think that's what my brain was driving at when I was arguing numbers earlier - the Six Sacred Scores are such a piss-miserable excuse for modeling physical and mental traits of a critter that only inertia and nostalgia is keeping them going. People just don't know what to do when an RPG system throws the Sacred Six out the window and tries to create a system more in line with how their game, or how reality, works.
There are, basically, two types of DM insofar as this discussion goes. So-called 'home game' DMs, running regular D&D, and AL DMs, who're stuck running Adventurer's League. Home DMs can AND SHOULD be vetting their players' character sheets before signing off on that character. Even if it's just a two-minute once-over to make sure everything seems in order. AL DMs don't have the luxury of doing that, but they're also not responsible for the player following the Unbreakable Adamantine Rules +7 of AL. If the player comes in and does something egregious, such as try to spend ten thousand gold at level 1, then the DM steps in. if the player sneaks a point where it theoretically shouldn't be in AL but nobody notices? Then nobody noticed, and thus had their Theoretical Regulations-Approved Corporate Standard Issue Good Time ruined by cheaters.
In neither case does the existence of this rule cause any complication anyone who's capable of running a D&D game in the first place cannot handle. Either you have a spine and say to your players "no Tasha's Cauldron rules, I will be checking", or you just fail to care. Especially since the vast majority of players will abide by their DM's restrictions on character generation without a fight in the first place. Very few players are out there consistently trying to Put One Over on the DM, so why continue to worry about it?
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This thread would be at least partially productive if you would simply stop misrepresenting other people's opinions with these continued strawman arguments. It is both inaccurate and unnecessarily hostile, and certainly does not foster communication.
Fair enough. Comment in contention removed. Though to be fair in turn, I have not tracked the man to other threads he's posting in and started fistfights with him in those. That makes one of us.
Nevertheless. I maintain that the numbers do not matter to some players, save that there be enough of them in the right places for the character to function in approximately the manner the player desires them to. The numbers mean nothing, they're an abstraction of an abstraction, and their only function is to serve as a mechanical engine to drive uncertainty. Why, in this case, a player should not be permitted to put their numbers where they like within the restrictions and limitations imposed by the mechanical engine, I do not know.
If a given table decides that the rule is bologna and that a given species must have high numbers in Sacred Score X and low numbers in Sacred Score Y regardless of any sort of background justification, that is no business of mine and that table may do as it pleases. Save for attempting to tell me NOT to use the new rules, endorsed by the people who're calling themselves the designers of the game and the custodians of that mechanical engine, because they're afraid of the consequences should this new rule prove popular and successful. Their fear has no bearing on my table, and I will use the new rule or not as my friends and I see fit.
Just as I have to choke down the fact that these same people ruined psionics due to their fear of New Rules causing havoc with their oversimplified 5e ruleset - which furthermore locks in ALL psionic offerings in the future and will thus go on to ruin many more books, sadly - they will have to choke down the fact that these new optional rules for character generation are here for those who want more out of their game. Or for those to whom the numbers are a distraction and annoyance when setting up a character and for whom the additional freedom is welcome.
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You're probably right. I prefer 5e rules and will continue to play them, but everybody does themselves ig. Arguing this topic on 10 different threads is dumb.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Eh,I have some issues with Wis (Int appears to be academics, Cha is social skills, and Wis is an incoherent mush of leftovers), and the division of tasks between Str and Dex is somewhat fishy, but they're not horrible, most variant systems I run into are no better.
It's more broken or not so much broken as "odd if you think about it" than that. Charisma _used_ to be social skills and still contains them but it also seems to be more on track with something like WILL. Warlock I can see CHR being the magic stat in that it's magic is from currying favor in pacts/patronage. Sorcerers though, they're conduits of raw magic and I just don't see being socially adept being a thing. I'd also argue that Arcane Tricksters for similar reasons should be CHR based, to reflect that the Rogues magic tricks are not via years of study but more acquired "by hook or by crook" and their spell books probably resemble something more along the lines of Sparknotes than a Wizards traditional tome.
Intelligence is to a degree "learned knowledge" and Wisdom is more having a good understanding, so where does quick wittedness or savoir faire fit in? My biggest peeve is still CON that it's a PC s stat for marathon type endurance, immune system, and ability to roll with a punch or other physical blow. But the game isn't _really_ simulationist on a number of levels, and I still have fun playing.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Can I ask why? why is having an elf that doesn't have darkvision and has +2 strength and +1 con harder to manage than a regular elf?
Creating New Character Options
If the options for player characters in the Player’s Handbook don’t meet all the needs of your campaign, consult the following sections for advice on creating new race, class, and background options.
Creating a Race or Subrace.....