I don’t buy the whole “well then my character is too similar to another character if we do this!”
It's more that it doesn't push players out of their comfort zone. It gives the player complete control. I'd rather they figure out what great things they can do (which is quite a lot, given that they can still rearrange stats and have racial bonuses available) with the hand they were dealt than that they get whatever greatness they want on tap. Not saying that's the best way either, but it is what's best for me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
...so. Pang. You think, if I explained for the seven hundredth time on this forum why creating mechanical reinforcement of narrative decisions whenever feasible/rational makes an RPG a better experience, it'd take? Or would I get brushed off again and told I don't know anything about nothing because I'm a terrible horrible human being who Hates D&D Forever?
Never played Fate. Any time I've heard it discussed the reactions to it have been distinctly mixed. FInd myself curious - what's an 'Aspect' in that system?
Fate is my absolute favorite RPG system, though it is very much a cinematic and narrative system and not everyone likes those. It takes a lot of GM judgement because, as you'll see, a big part of the mechanics comes down to adjudicating a lot of loosely described things all the time, kind of like ... imagine if every ability was a school of Illusion ability.
An Aspect in that system is a descriptive phrase attached to a character, an object, or a scene. Superman would have the phrase "Last Son of Krypton" on his character sheet, for example. Elminster would have "Chosen of Mystra" on his sheet. Those are pretty permanent Character Aspects, but you can also have situational Aspects like a building can be "On Fire" if a character lights it on fire, or a crowd can be "Drunkenly Belligerent."
Character Aspects can be positive, like "Strongest Man in the World" or negative, like "Riddled with Self Doubt" but usually the best ones are ones that have a mix of both and imply a connection to the world, like "Scion of Notorious Crime Family."
There are a few ways a player can use Aspects to their benefit. If the Aspect would apply to a roll (GM adjudication) you can spend a Fate Point to get a bonus or reroll your result. You can stack these, but a roll can only benefit from each Aspect once. The other, more fun way, you can use a Fate Point is to spend it to tag one of your Aspects and just make something happen, giving you a limited pool of GM power. On the reverse end the GM can also use your Aspects against you. If you were the aforementioned Scion of Notorious Crime Family, for instance, the GM can say, "Because you are part of Notorious Crime Family a problem arises when ... the cops show up and knock on your door" and offer you a Fate Point. If you accept the Fate Point that means you are accepting the complication, but if you don't accept you have to spend a Fate Point to buy it off and the thing still happens, but it conveniently doesn't cause a problem.
This is how Aspects are both Flaws and Boons and plot hooks all in one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The Redemption paladin is actually a character I DM'd for (if briefly), Pang. The two of us worked out her redemption arc after her zeal as an Oath of Glory paladin caused her to abandon the party for reasons of Being A D&D Party (redneck womanizer dwarf and cannibalistic lizardman turned out to Offend Divine Sensibilities). We worked out her return to the party and change of Oaths later. The rule was that any time she killed a humanoid or other sapient being (other than demons/devils/undead/Acceptable Paladin Targets), she had to spend one hour of time carving a prayer bead for that person, as soon after the act as she could. She could continue fighting if a fight was breaking out and see to the wounds of her allies in the immediate aftermath of a fight, but the general idea was that she could not begin a long rest without carving beads if she had beads to carve. If that meant skipping a long rest because she'd done poorly and had too many beads to carve? That's the price of her new path.
The game didn't last long enough past this point for me to really dig into it, and this was done for other reasons so there were no bonus character points, but I trusted this specific player to not only take the time to carve when it came up, but to play the paladin as doing everything in her power to avoid slaughter. It does indeed take more effort and adjudication to work up real flaws like that, but it's also worth it when it's feasible.
@Pantagruel: By-the-book Inspiration is a terrible bloody piece of design. Terrible. Sadly I haven't figured out a proper way to fix it yet. You have a point in that a system which 'rewards' playing into your flaws is self-regulating, but it's also a perverse incentive - it encourages players to fish for that Inspiration bonus by shoving their 'flaw' around. A DM can ride herd on that, but a lot of players get upset when rewards for "roleplaying" are arbitrary and they can't just push button A to receive bonus B. Good players know the difference between playing their character and being an oaf fishing for bonuses they don't merit, but it takes time for a player to learn those skills.
And frankly, even mediocre players deserve to be able to play a game of D&D. Just means the DM has to run the game differently, and know what they're in for.
That Flaw definitely has a mechanical effect attached to it. Taking a point of exhaustion, not regaining HP and not refreshing Class abilities is a very much a mechanical impact and less an RP aspect.
Whenever people start talking about flaw mechanics I always want to import Aspects from Fate wholesale.
It’s probably just because we played so much of it, but I always think of World of Darkness. I can’t speak to the newer edition, only the one from the ‘90s. However that Merits and Flaws system is actually something my group briefly discussed importing to D&D. (I might consider that for a future Homebrew project.... 🤔)
That's one where you get extra Experience if a Flaw hinders you in play? Or is it the one where you use it in chargen to buy extra bennies?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
...so. Pang. You think, if I explained for the seven hundredth time on this forum why creating mechanical reinforcement of narrative decisions whenever feasible/rational makes an RPG a better experience, it'd take? Or would I get brushed off again and told I don't know anything about nothing because I'm a terrible horrible human being who Hates D&D Forever?
Changing people's minds on the internet? Magic eight ball says: "outlook not so good". I think most people don't think you're a terrible horrible human being though (but I'm an eternal optimist).
Of course, as Pantagruel said mechanical reinforcement of narrative decisions already exists in D&D in the form of inspiration (doesn't matter whether it's a thing of silliness in practice, that's still exactly what inspiration is), so it's not like those people would have to take your word for it. If the devs think it's a sound concept it might not be great to pile on the positive reinforcement for everyone, but it certainly isn't an absolute sin.
From my perspective: D&D is a story game. The best parts are what we tell stories about later on. Do we need to be rewarded beyond just playing the game to get story-worthy experiences? No, not at all. But being rewarded isn't just nice, it's memorable. And pushing players to do things we can reward them for pushes them to do things that will make their experience more memorable. It bestows a sense of achievement. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Whenever people start talking about flaw mechanics I always want to import Aspects from Fate wholesale.
It’s probably just because we played so much of it, but I always think of World of Darkness.
The oldest RPG I know of with a flaw mechanic is Champions, from 1981 (in many ways a revolutionary system, though it hasn't really kept up with RPG tech).
That's an excellent way of putting it. And before someone harshes the vibe, I'm not saying that everybody should always get bonus points for everything they do. But if you make a big, impactful, meaningful decision for your character, that decision should have actual meaning and impact. Narrative floof that has no effect whatsoever on the game is all well and good, but it's not really memorable. After all, what is there to remember? You said some words and the game continued as if you hadn't. You basically accomplished nothing, so why bother remembering it?
It's why I so strongly dislike and disagree with the whole "You can refluff and reskin and reflavor anything you like for your character, it doesn't have to be reflected in the sheet or in your mechanics." First of all, effin' doy. Anybody who's played for any length of time knows they can adjust aesthetics more-or-less freely. Second of all, that doesn't matter if you're trying to execute a cool idea but aren't allowed to because all you can to is slap a texture pack on the basic Minecraft of the PHB ruleset. Ugh. Sometimes reskinning is a valid answer. Sometimes it is not. A good DM knows the difference, as does a good player.
That's an excellent way of putting it. And before someone harshes the vibe, I'm not saying that everybody should always get bonus points for everything they do. But if you make a big, impactful, meaningful decision for your character, that decision should have actual meaning and impact. Narrative floof that has no effect whatsoever on the game is all well and good, but it's not really memorable. After all, what is there to remember? You said some words and the game continued as if you hadn't. You basically accomplished nothing, so why bother remembering it?
It's why I so strongly dislike and disagree with the whole "You can refluff and reskin and reflavor anything you like for your character, it doesn't have to be reflected in the sheet or in your mechanics." First of all, effin' doy. Anybody who's played for any length of time knows they can adjust aesthetics more-or-less freely. Second of all, that doesn't matter if you're trying to execute a cool idea but aren't allowed to because all you can to is slap a texture pack on the basic Minecraft of the PHB ruleset. Ugh. Sometimes reskinning is a valid answer. Sometimes it is not. A good DM knows the difference, as does a good player.
Reflavoring doesn't make new interesting mechanical processes....I love the recent UA with the hobgoblin being able to add riders to the Help action for example.
Overall I would love to see more interesting/outside the box thinking with the system. Heck I even liked the Psi Die if it was related to Wild Magic or some other kind of random design/system.
If we just reverted to "just reflavor it" the majority of the time we would not see any kind of evolution of the system.
That's an excellent way of putting it. And before someone harshes the vibe, I'm not saying that everybody should always get bonus points for everything they do. But if you make a big, impactful, meaningful decision for your character, that decision should have actual meaning and impact. Narrative floof that has no effect whatsoever on the game is all well and good, but it's not really memorable. After all, what is there to remember? You said some words and the game continued as if you hadn't. You basically accomplished nothing, so why bother remembering it?
It's why I so strongly dislike and disagree with the whole "You can refluff and reskin and reflavor anything you like for your character, it doesn't have to be reflected in the sheet or in your mechanics." First of all, effin' doy. Anybody who's played for any length of time knows they can adjust aesthetics more-or-less freely. Second of all, that doesn't matter if you're trying to execute a cool idea but aren't allowed to because all you can to is slap a texture pack on the basic Minecraft of the PHB ruleset. Ugh. Sometimes reskinning is a valid answer. Sometimes it is not. A good DM knows the difference, as does a good player.
Also, I mean... I give my players cool stuff for no reason other than that it's cool stuff all the time. I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me a weird DM. A +1 sword with an interesting backstory and maybe some minor RP benefit (adds to the wielder's reputation with the Exalted Order of the White Tulip or something) is a much cooler item than just a sword with a +1 enchantment. Getting a chest full of coin and gemstones is great, getting some uncultivated lands and having those declared a barony is memorable. PCs can have useful allies or belong to a renowned organization just based on their backgrounds. As the PCs get more famous they get more help from locals, discounts in stores, free drinks at the local watering hole. Games are absolutely rife with this stuff.
PCs get something for nothing (nothing other than playing the game and getting the rewards proscribed by the rules as written, anyway) all the time. So why not reward them for how they play occasionally? Is this about the purity of the game or something? If the players enjoy it, if it's fun, then there's nothing wrong with it. There's no reason whatsoever to get worked up over players getting a plus here or an advantage there because they make life a little harder for their PCs. It's not necessary, but it's also not a bad thing and can definitely be good.
That's an excellent way of putting it. And before someone harshes the vibe, I'm not saying that everybody should always get bonus points for everything they do. But if you make a big, impactful, meaningful decision for your character, that decision should have actual meaning and impact. Narrative floof that has no effect whatsoever on the game is all well and good, but it's not really memorable. After all, what is there to remember? You said some words and the game continued as if you hadn't. You basically accomplished nothing, so why bother remembering it?
It's why I so strongly dislike and disagree with the whole "You can refluff and reskin and reflavor anything you like for your character, it doesn't have to be reflected in the sheet or in your mechanics." First of all, effin' doy. Anybody who's played for any length of time knows they can adjust aesthetics more-or-less freely. Second of all, that doesn't matter if you're trying to execute a cool idea but aren't allowed to because all you can to is slap a texture pack on the basic Minecraft of the PHB ruleset. Ugh. Sometimes reskinning is a valid answer. Sometimes it is not. A good DM knows the difference, as does a good player.
Also, I mean... I give my players cool stuff for no reason than that it's cool stuff all the time. I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me a weird DM. A +1 sword with an interesting backstory and maybe some minor RP benefit (adds to the wielder's reputation with the Exalted Order of the White Tulip or something) is a much cooler item than just a sword with a +1 enchantment. Getting a chest full of coin and gemstones is great, getting some uncultivated lands and having those declared a barony is memorable. PCs can have useful allies or belong to a renowned organization just based on their backgrounds. As the PCs get more famous they get more help from locals, discounts in stores, free drinks at the local watering hole. Games are absolutely rife with this stuff.
PCs get something for nothing (nothing other than playing the game and getting the rewards proscribed by the rules as written, anyway) all the time. So why not reward them for how they play occasionally? Is this about the purity of the game or something? If the players enjoy it, if it's fun, then there's nothing wrong with it. There's no reason whatsoever to get worked up over players getting a plus here or an advantage there because they make life a little harder for their PCs. It's not necessary, but it's also not a bad thing and can definitely be good.
Yeah I agree with this sentiment and its a pretty good way of providing cool fluff for stuff like magic items and spells even.
I just also think that we should get more options as players/DMs from the source itself (WotC) to help stimulate thought and diversify/evolve the system.
The number of people in here wanting a mechanical benefit to just playing their character is unreal. How did this game turn into rat-push-button-get-food-roleplay instead of just roleplay? Why is everything linked to some mechanism? Is this why people get upset with D&D nowadays, because it doesn’t properly reward you for every little nuance that you want to do and therefore you don’t do it?
Have either of you ever played Savage Worlds? In SW, you can accept Hindrances on your character (within a reasonable limit) to increase the amount of points you have to spend in character creation. It's been a hot minute since I've built a SWADE sheet, but I believe it's one Major and two minor Hindrances maximum, which can give you a bonus stat point or two and/or an extra Edge. Which is basically all we're really talking about here - the idea of taking a more codified 'Flaw' and in turn gaining a boost in character creation.
Why do that? Simple - it's an incentive to push outside your comfort zone and accept a roleplaying queue that many players wouldn't naturally take, giving the GM hooks to run the game better and improving the game for everybody involved.
Can excellent players be trusted to do that anyways? Of course. But why not give them some bennies for being excellent players that help you out in the first place, ne? Or steer newer players that may not be as aware of how much character imperfections can improve the game into that same behavior by offering them a carrot in exchange for volunteering for a sticking? Where's the harm, if you're asking players to accept those flaws in the first place anyways?
Never played Fate. Any time I've heard it discussed the reactions to it have been distinctly mixed. FInd myself curious - what's an 'Aspect' in that system?
Fate is my absolute favorite RPG system, though it is very much a cinematic and narrative system and not everyone likes those. It takes a lot of GM judgement because, as you'll see, a big part of the mechanics comes down to adjudicating a lot of loosely described things all the time, kind of like ... imagine if every ability was a school of Illusion ability.
An Aspect in that system is a descriptive phrase attached to a character, an object, or a scene. Superman would have the phrase "Last Son of Krypton" on his character sheet, for example. Elminster would have "Chosen of Mystra" on his sheet. Those are pretty permanent Character Aspects, but you can also have situational Aspects like a building can be "On Fire" if a character lights it on fire, or a crowd can be "Drunkenly Belligerent."
Character Aspects can be positive, like "Strongest Man in the World" or negative, like "Riddled with Self Doubt" but usually the best ones are ones that have a mix of both and imply a connection to the world, like "Scion of Notorious Crime Family."
There are a few ways a player can use Aspects to their benefit. If the Aspect would apply to a roll (GM adjudication) you can spend a Fate Point to get a bonus or reroll your result. You can stack these, but a roll can only benefit from each Aspect once. The other, more fun way, you can use a Fate Point is to spend it to tag one of your Aspects and just make something happen, giving you a limited pool of GM power. On the reverse end the GM can also use your Aspects against you. If you were the aforementioned Scion of Notorious Crime Family, for instance, the GM can say, "Because you are part of Notorious Crime Family a problem arises when ... the cops show up and knock on your door" and offer you a Fate Point. If you accept the Fate Point that means you are accepting the complication, but if you don't accept you have to spend a Fate Point to buy it off and the thing still happens, but it conveniently doesn't cause a problem.
This is how Aspects are both Flaws and Boons and plot hooks all in one.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Apologies. I did see that, but work has been annoying today.
I'm not entirely sure what to think of that. I'm not generally a huge fan of numberless descriptor games, it feels like they involve a whole lot of horse-trading unless the GM pretty clearly lays out what is or isn't allowed or has a lot of history with the group. That and the closer to a Rules-Lite Narrative Experience(TM) a game gets, the less reason I figure it has to charge me a godawful shitheap of money for a half-dozen super pricey gaming books whose contents amount to "Use Your Imagination(C)!" I can do that for free and have been doing so for well over half my life.
I can see the appeal though, and it'd definitely forestall the kind of rulesmancy nonsense that tends to plague D&D. Lets players sortakinna invent their 'class features' out of whole cloth, which is cool, but it strikes me as super vulnerable to abuse. After all, an intelligent enough player can argue a lot of ways their Aspects might allow them to ace a given situation. Without the backdrop of the rest of the Fate system to give it context I can't really say much, but I assume the rough 5e equivalent would be "you can argue that one of your personality traits applies to a roll and gain advantage, but the DM can also use your Flaw to jack you over and you hafta live with it", possibly with or without a pool of 'Fate' points?
Hm. I could see that, system could work with some massaging, but the table would have to be very comfortable with the GM being allowed to quickly yay or nay a given 'Aspect' roll, with a minimum of dickering, or it'd slow the game down a whole gorram lot. That or the whole system would automatically shut off in combat, no killing ten minutes arguing for Aspect bonuses while you're fighting for your life.
Apologies. I did see that, but work has been annoying today.
I'm not entirely sure what to think of that. I'm not generally a huge fan of numberless descriptor games
That's not really what Fate aspects are -- the mechanical effects of invoking an aspects are standardized (compel mechanics are vaguer), the abstract description just determines when it comes into play (and bringing aspects into play has a cost). I have some issues with the system, it makes everything a little too generic for my tastes, but you don't have to bring in the whole system to borrow ideas from it.
I'm not generally a huge fan of numberless descriptor games, it feels like they involve a whole lot of horse-trading unless the GM pretty clearly lays out what is or isn't allowed or has a lot of history with the group.
Yes and Fate has the idea of setting the expectations built into the mechanics. The game does things like having Game Aspects, which are overarching meta-Aspects meant to define the genre of each particular game, which helps people set their expectations as to what are and aren't appropriate types of Aspects, or how much they should expect any Aspect to be able to do. It relies on players to buy in to the genre in use and not try things like pull off Justice League level stuff when a particular game is clearly set for Scooby Doo level play, for example. It also explicitly says that Character Creation is Play, meaning that even the process of creating characters and backstories is part of playing the game, meaning that Session 0 is built into the rules and by default 2-3 out of 5 of your character's Aspects are supposed to be linked to other PC's. On top of that, the Fate community is big about setting expectations and clearly communicating the genre expectations of each game. Even with that, sometimes there is still a bit of dickering about how any particular Aspect is or can be applied.
That and the closer to a Rules-Lite Narrative Experience(TM) a game gets, the less reason I figure it has to charge me a godawful shitheap of money for a half-dozen super pricey gaming books whose contents amount to "Use Your Imagination(C)!" I can do that for free and have been doing so for well over half my life.
That's another great thing! All of the core material is Pay What You Want, which was made possible by a wildly successful Kickstarter, and much of the supplemental stuff is also PWYW. They have all the material, minus the art, up for free HERE.
I can see the appeal though, and it'd definitely forestall the kind of rulesmancy nonsense that tends to plague D&D. Lets players sortakinna invent their 'class features' out of whole cloth, which is cool, but it strikes me as super vulnerable to abuse. After all, an intelligent enough player can argue a lot of ways their Aspects might allow them to ace a given situation. Without the backdrop of the rest of the Fate system to give it context I can't really say much, but I assume the rough 5e equivalent would be "you can argue that one of your personality traits applies to a roll and gain advantage, but the DM can also use your Flaw to jack you over and you hafta live with it", possibly with or without a pool of 'Fate' points?
The sweet spot is when the player, who has created their own Aspects including their Trouble Aspect (the one Aspect that is supposed to drive dramatic conflict), likes the kind of shenanigans that frustrate the character, but excite the player, and volunteers ideas for problems to the GM. The GM is then supposed to pay them a Fate Point for this. I have run games with a player who loved to introduce thorny romantic problems into his character's life, and accrued plenty of Fate Points for it.
It helps that getting Taken Out in a conflict explicitly doesn't always mean death of the character and that even if a character dies the rules say that the player has narrative control over their death scene, meaning they go out in a character appropriate style even if they don't get to dictate everything that happens.
I can see the appeal though, and it'd definitely forestall the kind of rulesmancy nonsense that tends to plague D&D. Lets players sortakinna invent their 'class features' out of whole cloth, which is cool, but it strikes me as super vulnerable to abuse. After all, an intelligent enough player can argue a lot of ways their Aspects might allow them to ace a given situation. Without the backdrop of the rest of the Fate system to give it context I can't really say much, but I assume the rough 5e equivalent would be "you can argue that one of your personality traits applies to a roll and gain advantage, but the DM can also use your Flaw to jack you over and you hafta live with it", possibly with or without a pool of 'Fate' points?
My recollection is that invoking Aspects to Do Things always costs a fate point, and those are in short supply. Plus, it's basically pointless (heh) to invoke more than one at a time, and if you're invoking them for ~everything you run out pretty quickly. D&D's inspiration mechanic reminds me a great deal of Fate.
Again if I remember correctly, you start with some number of fate points per session, but permanently spend them to get supernatural features, so there's this tradeoff between "using your Aspects lots" and "doing cool magic/supernatural stuff." But it's been 8 years or something since I played it.
My recollection is that invoking Aspects to Do Things always costs a fate point, and those are in short supply. Plus, it's basically pointless (heh) to invoke more than one at a time, and if you're invoking them for ~everything you run out pretty quickly. D&D's inspiration mechanic reminds me a great deal of Fate.
Again if I remember correctly, you start with some number of fate points per session, but permanently spend them to get supernatural features, so there's this tradeoff between "using your Aspects lots" and "doing cool magic/supernatural stuff." But it's been 8 years or something since I played it.
Yes you get a Refresh level, which is the minimum amount of Fate Points that you start a session out with and you can spend permanent Refresh to get permanent powers, down to a minimum of 1. The powers are balanced so they should equal the power of using a Fate Point, but more reliably and more frequently. Also you earn Fate Points whenever any of your Aspects cause your character trouble. Fate works best when you like both the good and bad points of your Aspects and thus volunteer for interesting troubles befalling your character as well as using your Aspects to get you out of those pitfalls.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It's more that it doesn't push players out of their comfort zone. It gives the player complete control. I'd rather they figure out what great things they can do (which is quite a lot, given that they can still rearrange stats and have racial bonuses available) with the hand they were dealt than that they get whatever greatness they want on tap. Not saying that's the best way either, but it is what's best for me.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
...so. Pang. You think, if I explained for the seven hundredth time on this forum why creating mechanical reinforcement of narrative decisions whenever feasible/rational makes an RPG a better experience, it'd take? Or would I get brushed off again and told I don't know anything about nothing because I'm a terrible horrible human being who Hates D&D Forever?
Please do not contact or message me.
Fate is my absolute favorite RPG system, though it is very much a cinematic and narrative system and not everyone likes those. It takes a lot of GM judgement because, as you'll see, a big part of the mechanics comes down to adjudicating a lot of loosely described things all the time, kind of like ... imagine if every ability was a school of Illusion ability.
An Aspect in that system is a descriptive phrase attached to a character, an object, or a scene. Superman would have the phrase "Last Son of Krypton" on his character sheet, for example. Elminster would have "Chosen of Mystra" on his sheet. Those are pretty permanent Character Aspects, but you can also have situational Aspects like a building can be "On Fire" if a character lights it on fire, or a crowd can be "Drunkenly Belligerent."
Character Aspects can be positive, like "Strongest Man in the World" or negative, like "Riddled with Self Doubt" but usually the best ones are ones that have a mix of both and imply a connection to the world, like "Scion of Notorious Crime Family."
There are a few ways a player can use Aspects to their benefit. If the Aspect would apply to a roll (GM adjudication) you can spend a Fate Point to get a bonus or reroll your result. You can stack these, but a roll can only benefit from each Aspect once. The other, more fun way, you can use a Fate Point is to spend it to tag one of your Aspects and just make something happen, giving you a limited pool of GM power. On the reverse end the GM can also use your Aspects against you. If you were the aforementioned Scion of Notorious Crime Family, for instance, the GM can say, "Because you are part of Notorious Crime Family a problem arises when ... the cops show up and knock on your door" and offer you a Fate Point. If you accept the Fate Point that means you are accepting the complication, but if you don't accept you have to spend a Fate Point to buy it off and the thing still happens, but it conveniently doesn't cause a problem.
This is how Aspects are both Flaws and Boons and plot hooks all in one.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
That Flaw definitely has a mechanical effect attached to it. Taking a point of exhaustion, not regaining HP and not refreshing Class abilities is a very much a mechanical impact and less an RP aspect.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That's one where you get extra Experience if a Flaw hinders you in play? Or is it the one where you use it in chargen to buy extra bennies?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Changing people's minds on the internet? Magic eight ball says: "outlook not so good". I think most people don't think you're a terrible horrible human being though (but I'm an eternal optimist).
Of course, as Pantagruel said mechanical reinforcement of narrative decisions already exists in D&D in the form of inspiration (doesn't matter whether it's a thing of silliness in practice, that's still exactly what inspiration is), so it's not like those people would have to take your word for it. If the devs think it's a sound concept it might not be great to pile on the positive reinforcement for everyone, but it certainly isn't an absolute sin.
From my perspective: D&D is a story game. The best parts are what we tell stories about later on. Do we need to be rewarded beyond just playing the game to get story-worthy experiences? No, not at all. But being rewarded isn't just nice, it's memorable. And pushing players to do things we can reward them for pushes them to do things that will make their experience more memorable. It bestows a sense of achievement. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The oldest RPG I know of with a flaw mechanic is Champions, from 1981 (in many ways a revolutionary system, though it hasn't really kept up with RPG tech).
That's an excellent way of putting it. And before someone harshes the vibe, I'm not saying that everybody should always get bonus points for everything they do. But if you make a big, impactful, meaningful decision for your character, that decision should have actual meaning and impact. Narrative floof that has no effect whatsoever on the game is all well and good, but it's not really memorable. After all, what is there to remember? You said some words and the game continued as if you hadn't. You basically accomplished nothing, so why bother remembering it?
It's why I so strongly dislike and disagree with the whole "You can refluff and reskin and reflavor anything you like for your character, it doesn't have to be reflected in the sheet or in your mechanics." First of all, effin' doy. Anybody who's played for any length of time knows they can adjust aesthetics more-or-less freely. Second of all, that doesn't matter if you're trying to execute a cool idea but aren't allowed to because all you can to is slap a texture pack on the basic Minecraft of the PHB ruleset. Ugh. Sometimes reskinning is a valid answer. Sometimes it is not. A good DM knows the difference, as does a good player.
Please do not contact or message me.
Reflavoring doesn't make new interesting mechanical processes....I love the recent UA with the hobgoblin being able to add riders to the Help action for example.
Overall I would love to see more interesting/outside the box thinking with the system. Heck I even liked the Psi Die if it was related to Wild Magic or some other kind of random design/system.
If we just reverted to "just reflavor it" the majority of the time we would not see any kind of evolution of the system.
Also, I mean... I give my players cool stuff for no reason other than that it's cool stuff all the time. I'm pretty sure that doesn't make me a weird DM. A +1 sword with an interesting backstory and maybe some minor RP benefit (adds to the wielder's reputation with the Exalted Order of the White Tulip or something) is a much cooler item than just a sword with a +1 enchantment. Getting a chest full of coin and gemstones is great, getting some uncultivated lands and having those declared a barony is memorable. PCs can have useful allies or belong to a renowned organization just based on their backgrounds. As the PCs get more famous they get more help from locals, discounts in stores, free drinks at the local watering hole. Games are absolutely rife with this stuff.
PCs get something for nothing (nothing other than playing the game and getting the rewards proscribed by the rules as written, anyway) all the time. So why not reward them for how they play occasionally? Is this about the purity of the game or something? If the players enjoy it, if it's fun, then there's nothing wrong with it. There's no reason whatsoever to get worked up over players getting a plus here or an advantage there because they make life a little harder for their PCs. It's not necessary, but it's also not a bad thing and can definitely be good.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah I agree with this sentiment and its a pretty good way of providing cool fluff for stuff like magic items and spells even.
I just also think that we should get more options as players/DMs from the source itself (WotC) to help stimulate thought and diversify/evolve the system.
This is just an old cranky dude typing but..
This is 2021. Not just D&D.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
Sigh.
OTL
Have either of you ever played Savage Worlds? In SW, you can accept Hindrances on your character (within a reasonable limit) to increase the amount of points you have to spend in character creation. It's been a hot minute since I've built a SWADE sheet, but I believe it's one Major and two minor Hindrances maximum, which can give you a bonus stat point or two and/or an extra Edge. Which is basically all we're really talking about here - the idea of taking a more codified 'Flaw' and in turn gaining a boost in character creation.
Why do that? Simple - it's an incentive to push outside your comfort zone and accept a roleplaying queue that many players wouldn't naturally take, giving the GM hooks to run the game better and improving the game for everybody involved.
Can excellent players be trusted to do that anyways? Of course. But why not give them some bennies for being excellent players that help you out in the first place, ne? Or steer newer players that may not be as aware of how much character imperfections can improve the game into that same behavior by offering them a carrot in exchange for volunteering for a sticking? Where's the harm, if you're asking players to accept those flaws in the first place anyways?
Please do not contact or message me.
@Yurei, did you see my response to your question? I'm also curious as to what you think.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Apologies. I did see that, but work has been annoying today.
I'm not entirely sure what to think of that. I'm not generally a huge fan of numberless descriptor games, it feels like they involve a whole lot of horse-trading unless the GM pretty clearly lays out what is or isn't allowed or has a lot of history with the group. That and the closer to a Rules-Lite Narrative Experience(TM) a game gets, the less reason I figure it has to charge me a godawful shitheap of money for a half-dozen super pricey gaming books whose contents amount to "Use Your Imagination(C)!" I can do that for free and have been doing so for well over half my life.
I can see the appeal though, and it'd definitely forestall the kind of rulesmancy nonsense that tends to plague D&D. Lets players sortakinna invent their 'class features' out of whole cloth, which is cool, but it strikes me as super vulnerable to abuse. After all, an intelligent enough player can argue a lot of ways their Aspects might allow them to ace a given situation. Without the backdrop of the rest of the Fate system to give it context I can't really say much, but I assume the rough 5e equivalent would be "you can argue that one of your personality traits applies to a roll and gain advantage, but the DM can also use your Flaw to jack you over and you hafta live with it", possibly with or without a pool of 'Fate' points?
Hm. I could see that, system could work with some massaging, but the table would have to be very comfortable with the GM being allowed to quickly yay or nay a given 'Aspect' roll, with a minimum of dickering, or it'd slow the game down a whole gorram lot. That or the whole system would automatically shut off in combat, no killing ten minutes arguing for Aspect bonuses while you're fighting for your life.
Am I anywhere on base?
Please do not contact or message me.
That's not really what Fate aspects are -- the mechanical effects of invoking an aspects are standardized (compel mechanics are vaguer), the abstract description just determines when it comes into play (and bringing aspects into play has a cost). I have some issues with the system, it makes everything a little too generic for my tastes, but you don't have to bring in the whole system to borrow ideas from it.
Yep! And I'll respond to your thoughts individually.
Yes and Fate has the idea of setting the expectations built into the mechanics. The game does things like having Game Aspects, which are overarching meta-Aspects meant to define the genre of each particular game, which helps people set their expectations as to what are and aren't appropriate types of Aspects, or how much they should expect any Aspect to be able to do. It relies on players to buy in to the genre in use and not try things like pull off Justice League level stuff when a particular game is clearly set for Scooby Doo level play, for example. It also explicitly says that Character Creation is Play, meaning that even the process of creating characters and backstories is part of playing the game, meaning that Session 0 is built into the rules and by default 2-3 out of 5 of your character's Aspects are supposed to be linked to other PC's. On top of that, the Fate community is big about setting expectations and clearly communicating the genre expectations of each game. Even with that, sometimes there is still a bit of dickering about how any particular Aspect is or can be applied.
That's another great thing! All of the core material is Pay What You Want, which was made possible by a wildly successful Kickstarter, and much of the supplemental stuff is also PWYW. They have all the material, minus the art, up for free HERE.
The sweet spot is when the player, who has created their own Aspects including their Trouble Aspect (the one Aspect that is supposed to drive dramatic conflict), likes the kind of shenanigans that frustrate the character, but excite the player, and volunteers ideas for problems to the GM. The GM is then supposed to pay them a Fate Point for this. I have run games with a player who loved to introduce thorny romantic problems into his character's life, and accrued plenty of Fate Points for it.
It helps that getting Taken Out in a conflict explicitly doesn't always mean death of the character and that even if a character dies the rules say that the player has narrative control over their death scene, meaning they go out in a character appropriate style even if they don't get to dictate everything that happens.
Here's a bit of advice they give to GM's: Drama is Better Than Realism, You're the Chairman, Not God, Let the Players Help You
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
My recollection is that invoking Aspects to Do Things always costs a fate point, and those are in short supply. Plus, it's basically pointless (heh) to invoke more than one at a time, and if you're invoking them for ~everything you run out pretty quickly. D&D's inspiration mechanic reminds me a great deal of Fate.
Again if I remember correctly, you start with some number of fate points per session, but permanently spend them to get supernatural features, so there's this tradeoff between "using your Aspects lots" and "doing cool magic/supernatural stuff." But it's been 8 years or something since I played it.
Yes you get a Refresh level, which is the minimum amount of Fate Points that you start a session out with and you can spend permanent Refresh to get permanent powers, down to a minimum of 1. The powers are balanced so they should equal the power of using a Fate Point, but more reliably and more frequently. Also you earn Fate Points whenever any of your Aspects cause your character trouble. Fate works best when you like both the good and bad points of your Aspects and thus volunteer for interesting troubles befalling your character as well as using your Aspects to get you out of those pitfalls.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Its up to personal preference