There's nothing in the wording of Manifest Echo to suggest that the echo is fixed at the point of its creation; when it makes saves and attacks it's using your own current stats after all, so this would seem to imply that if you are transformed somehow then your echo will be as well.
Feels like something you probably want to talk to your DM about, as it may be situational (depends how you're transformed and into what exactly) but for Wildshape I'd assume the echo changes as well, as if you make a bite/claw/tail/whatever attack you have the option of making it through the echo, so it needs to have some way of actually doing that.
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There's nothing in the wording of Manifest Echo to suggest that the echo is fixed at the point of its creation; when it makes saves and attacks it's using your own current stats after all, so this would seem to imply that if you are transformed somehow then your echo will be as well.
Feels like something you probably want to talk to your DM about, as it may be situational (depends how you're transformed and into what exactly) but for Wildshape I'd assume the echo changes as well, as if you make a bite/claw/tail/whatever attack you have the option of making it through the echo, so it needs to have some way of actually doing that.
There's nothing in the wording to give an indication either way so the question is left for the adjudication of the DM.
If you want an echo, either as a knight or a croc, to grapple then what happens in the rounds after the grapple is also left for the adjudication of the DM.
If your Echo Knight 18/Druid 2 with 20 str with a maul and crusher feat in humanoid form wildshapes into a croc, does the echo also wildshape? Can you stop the change from occurring? Where are the rules to say?
There's nothing in the wording to give an indication either way so the question is left for the adjudication of the DM.
That's why I said to discuss it with them; however there are plenty of examples in D&D of rules that create duplicates and don't account for transformations, such as Invoke Duplicity, Mirror Image and so-on, Echo Knight isn't unique among these.
However, unlike those where you can't do anything using your new transformation for that applies to them (mirror images always have the same stats, your duplicate can only be used to cast spells through etc.), the Echo Knight does specify that you can attack as though you were in its space. From that we can assume that it's supposed to be the echo that is actually attacking; so how does it attack with a bite/claws/tail if it doesn't have the necessary physiology?
This is why I'd say that in RAW the echo must be transformed as well in order to match the mechanics that it has (in terms of attacking); functionally transforming doesn't otherwise affect it, and your DM might have to make a decision if that transformation includes your size changing*, but otherwise the echo changing as well makes the most sense, as it's an echo of you, not a clone or snapshot at the time you created it.
*I'm not 100% sure if the size changing matters for the duplicate or not, don't have the book to hand right now; iirc it sort of counts as an object but it can't be targeted or harmed, so it's size probably doesn't matter either.
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If I active my fighter echo then wild shape as a croc thanks to my druid second class does my echo change shape to or stay as a humanoid?
There's nothing in the wording of Manifest Echo to suggest that the echo is fixed at the point of its creation; when it makes saves and attacks it's using your own current stats after all, so this would seem to imply that if you are transformed somehow then your echo will be as well.
Feels like something you probably want to talk to your DM about, as it may be situational (depends how you're transformed and into what exactly) but for Wildshape I'd assume the echo changes as well, as if you make a bite/claw/tail/whatever attack you have the option of making it through the echo, so it needs to have some way of actually doing that.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
An echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you so if you Wild Shape, the image of you change, and the echo should reflect it.
The title 'twin bite" is erroneous though, there is only ever 1 bite you make, wether it is originating from you or the echo's space.
There's nothing in the wording to give an indication either way so the question is left for the adjudication of the DM.
If you want an echo, either as a knight or a croc, to grapple then what happens in the rounds after the grapple is also left for the adjudication of the DM.
If your Echo Knight 18/Druid 2 with 20 str with a maul and crusher feat in humanoid form wildshapes into a croc, does the echo also wildshape? Can you stop the change from occurring? Where are the rules to say?
The thing is it doesn't matter what the echo look like since it has no impact on what it actually do.
That's why I said to discuss it with them; however there are plenty of examples in D&D of rules that create duplicates and don't account for transformations, such as Invoke Duplicity, Mirror Image and so-on, Echo Knight isn't unique among these.
However, unlike those where you can't do anything using your new transformation for that applies to them (mirror images always have the same stats, your duplicate can only be used to cast spells through etc.), the Echo Knight does specify that you can attack as though you were in its space. From that we can assume that it's supposed to be the echo that is actually attacking; so how does it attack with a bite/claws/tail if it doesn't have the necessary physiology?
This is why I'd say that in RAW the echo must be transformed as well in order to match the mechanics that it has (in terms of attacking); functionally transforming doesn't otherwise affect it, and your DM might have to make a decision if that transformation includes your size changing*, but otherwise the echo changing as well makes the most sense, as it's an echo of you, not a clone or snapshot at the time you created it.
*I'm not 100% sure if the size changing matters for the duplicate or not, don't have the book to hand right now; iirc it sort of counts as an object but it can't be targeted or harmed, so it's size probably doesn't matter either.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.