Update - yall are awesome and I really appreciate all the thought and work and advice that has gone into responding to this! I will be looking onto a HeroForge membership and filling out their form to be able to use that as tokens! Waaaaay better than my pitiful drawing skills.
TLDR: wanting to stream, what can I use for icons without violating copyright?
I'm relatively new to online games and already my icons leave something to be desired. But we have fun! I'm starting a new campaign in my homebrew world and we are wanting to stream it. What is it okay for me to use as icons? I've purchased content on here so can I use icons from the artwork in the books I've purchased as long as I put somewhere that's where the art comes from?
Depends on what you are wanting to use. Most of the monsters that can be found in the Basic rules are pretty free to use, both stats and art, for most game purposes. I'm pretty sure there are still notes in the printed versions of the Monster Manual and other play materials that allow for copying and other fair-use options for gaming purposes. I would imagine that using the art to make a monster token for an online game would be similar to physically printing up the art of a monster for a 2-d token on a game mat in physical play settings.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I’m writing this assuming that you intend to stream and make some money from the process, not just for personal use. If that’s the case, giving credit to the owner of an intellectual property does not make it alright to use their property. You are (presumably) trying to make money by using their property. No copyright owner would allow this. You need to pay them for it, or otherwise get their permission. In writing if you know what’s good for you. You could approach them about a licensing deal, but unless you’re already famous, odds are they won’t even bother to return your calls. You have two realistic options that won’t get you a cease-and-desist letter. One: Draw them yourself so you are the copyright owner. Two: Hire an artist to create them for you, and make it clear in the contract that you are purchasing them for commercial, broadcast use.
Also, I’m not a lawyer. You should check with one before you attempt to use anyone else’s material.
Now, if I misunderstood, and this is just for you and your friends and no one else will ever see it, then pretty much everything is fair game.
TLDR: wanting to stream, what can I use for icons without violating copyright?
Anything where the copyright has expired, or the copyright owner has given permission for the use you wish to make (there are also exceptions for fair use, but they probably aren't important for your use case). For WotC, it looks like the relevant policy is here (and it looks like you'd probably be fine, but read it for yourself).
I could be wrong but I've been using a lot of tokens that I made in Heroforge. One of the features of buying a membership is that you can generate tokens for download. I've done that a good amount and it seems to be good to go.
I'll be honest I haven't read deep into the rules on Heroforge to see for sure what they say about use during streaming but there IS a difference between using the icon on a game stream where you're making a couple hundred a month vs publishing them in a book and selling them. If you are worried about such things, you can get a lot of mileage while streaming using a colored square with a letter in it as a token. Unless you're going all in on one of the virtual table tops.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a freelance writer (nothing any of you have read), so I've learned a bit about copyright/intellectual property. My understanding is that if you do not "vigorously defend" a copyright, you can lose it. So, for the creator of the IP, there isn't really much difference between someone making a couple bucks streaming vs. thousands from publishing a book, vs really big bucks trying to turn it into a Netflix series. If they notice you using their property, usually the first step will be to have their lawyers send a letter telling you to stop. That counts as a defense; is usually enough to get people to stop; and is the cheapest, easiest and fastest way to deal with it. Lawsuits come later and they prefer to avoid them because they can be expensive, but if the alternative is losing their IP, that's what they'll do.
Also, the law aside, someone worked hard to make whatever it is your using. You should respect that and pay them for their work. I know that if I publish a story on one website (who pays me for it), but another picks it up because they think everything on the Internet is free (it's happened), I get pissed (or triggered as you younger folks say). They stole that story. I made it, someone else paid for the rights to it. The third party shouldn't get a free ride.
I could be wrong but I've been using a lot of tokens that I made in Heroforge. One of the features of buying a membership is that you can generate tokens for download. I've done that a good amount and it seems to be good to go.
I'll be honest I haven't read deep into the rules on Heroforge to see for sure what they say about use during streaming but there IS a difference between using the icon on a game stream where you're making a couple hundred a month vs publishing them in a book and selling them. If you are worried about such things, you can get a lot of mileage while streaming using a colored square with a letter in it as a token. Unless you're going all in on one of the virtual table tops.
It didn't take much looking, but to use HeroForge assets in a stream or any other media where there's monetization in any form, there is in fact a clearance/permission process. Their FAQ "Can I use HeroForge minis in my stream or show?" takes you to this form:
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a freelance writer (nothing any of you have read), so I've learned a bit about copyright/intellectual property. My understanding is that if you do not "vigorously defend" a copyright, you can lose it. So, for the creator of the IP, there isn't really much difference between someone making a couple bucks streaming vs. thousands from publishing a book, vs really big bucks trying to turn it into a Netflix series. If they notice you using their property, usually the first step will be to have their lawyers send a letter telling you to stop. That counts as a defense; is usually enough to get people to stop; and is the cheapest, easiest and fastest way to deal with it. Lawsuits come later and they prefer to avoid them because they can be expensive, but if the alternative is losing their IP, that's what they'll do.
Also, the law aside, someone worked hard to make whatever it is your using. You should respect that and pay them for their work. I know that if I publish a story on one website (who pays me for it), but another picks it up because they think everything on the Internet is free (it's happened), I get pissed (or triggered as you younger folks say). They stole that story. I made it, someone else paid for the rights to it. The third party shouldn't get a free ride.
This is true and as someone who PAYS to use the Heroforge site, I should have done a little more look to be sure I was in the full clear to use tokens from it on my stream.
That said, it would be HORRIBLE business for them to send a CnD letter. Given my options out there I could also just stop paying my monthly fee to get the cooler features on their website and find another option for putting 2d graphics up on my stream while I play. I'm not Matt Mercer and while, technically, I am monetized (to pizza money basically at the moment), I don't feel I'm worth it over a few pictures.
I mean even if they sued, what damages would be fair? Semi legit question but from strictly a compensatory point of view, I AM paying them, and I can also claim some level of ownership as I was the one that used their tools to make the art. Now, yes, their TOS has all this language about 'we retain the rights...' which works... UNTIL it's challenged. A decent lawyer could make the case that such terms are unenforceable the same way that Adobe doesn't own the rights to what you draw if you do it on their art platform. I'd have to do some digging to see what the precedent is out there. Or that Microsoft owns your story because you typed it on Word.
I hear you, you're right. If someone writes something (I actually have/had a novel up on Amazon) they deserve money. No reposts for freebies. And I hear your trigger moment. I got a review that was very high praise for the book that ended with "I hope the author does another free weekend; everyone should read this!" Or, pal, you could tell your friends to buy it.... ?
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a freelance writer (nothing any of you have read), so I've learned a bit about copyright/intellectual property. My understanding is that if you do not "vigorously defend" a copyright, you can lose it. So, for the creator of the IP, there isn't really much difference between someone making a couple bucks streaming vs. thousands from publishing a book, vs really big bucks trying to turn it into a Netflix series. If they notice you using their property, usually the first step will be to have their lawyers send a letter telling you to stop. That counts as a defense; is usually enough to get people to stop; and is the cheapest, easiest and fastest way to deal with it. Lawsuits come later and they prefer to avoid them because they can be expensive, but if the alternative is losing their IP, that's what they'll do.
Also, the law aside, someone worked hard to make whatever it is your using. You should respect that and pay them for their work. I know that if I publish a story on one website (who pays me for it), but another picks it up because they think everything on the Internet is free (it's happened), I get pissed (or triggered as you younger folks say). They stole that story. I made it, someone else paid for the rights to it. The third party shouldn't get a free ride.
This is true and as someone who PAYS to use the Heroforge site, I should have done a little more look to be sure I was in the full clear to use tokens from it on my stream.
That said, it would be HORRIBLE business for them to send a CnD letter. Given my options out there I could also just stop paying my monthly fee to get the cooler features on their website and find another option for putting 2d graphics up on my stream while I play. I'm not Matt Mercer and while, technically, I am monetized (to pizza money basically at the moment), I don't feel I'm worth it over a few pictures.
I mean even if they sued, what damages would be fair? Semi legit question but from strictly a compensatory point of view, I AM paying them, and I can also claim some level of ownership as I was the one that used their tools to make the art. Now, yes, their TOS has all this language about 'we retain the rights...' which works... UNTIL it's challenged. A decent lawyer could make the case that such terms are unenforceable the same way that Adobe doesn't own the rights to what you draw if you do it on their art platform. I'd have to do some digging to see what the precedent is out there. Or that Microsoft owns your story because you typed it on Word.
I hear you, you're right. If someone writes something (I actually have/had a novel up on Amazon) they deserve money. No reposts for freebies. And I hear your trigger moment. I got a review that was very high praise for the book that ended with "I hope the author does another free weekend; everyone should read this!" Or, pal, you could tell your friends to buy it.... ?
Sorry for the derail.. been a morning...
So now you know there's a form to fill out, a really simple one with HeroForge (more likely so they have a record of their license agreement being rendered to you), are you going to simply refuse to ask permission? It's probably a rubber stamp process, although I could see someone like HeroForge perhaps having misgivings with its tools being used to create content considered offensive.
"I only make pizza money, I ain't worth the work put into a CnD," you overestimate the amount of work a CnD or takedown notice requires. Then the onus is on you to appeal, if it was a take down, or comply. Sure "any lawyer (versed in IP and ToS rights) could fight this" but are you going to find a lawyer who will defend you with your pizza proceeds?
Probability of it happening? Unlikely, but what's the hurt in registering your use with them? Heck, if your audience eventually provides beyond pizza purveyors and you inadvertently go viral, HeroForge may be an interested sponsor, or may give you even earlier access to new concepts as a way to in kind promote the brand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Good luck, Rorlins. I'm sorry you had a rough morning.
To answer what you said in your earlier post, Microsoft, for example, does not include in its terms of service a claim to ownership of the things created with its product, so that's why they wouldn't be able to say they own things you create in word. Some other companies (like Hero Forge as we all found out today) do, which is kind of what I was getting at to the OP.
And to get back to the OP, I hope that this discussion answered your questions. In short, don't assume you can use something. It's going to be safer to assume you can't, read the Terms of Service, and ask permission. Probably you won't get sued, and realistically the worst is that you'll just get an angry letter, but better to avoid the hassle.
Most RPG companies consider streaming (and other forms of fan content that don't actually permit people to bypass buying their product) free advertising, and thus are fine with it as long as you don't use it for offensive content or to advertise sources for pirated content, but in the end there isn't a lot you can know about what's allowed without checking with the IP owner.
To answer what you said in your earlier post, Microsoft, for example, does not include in its terms of service a claim to ownership of the things created with its product, so that's why they wouldn't be able to say they own things you create in word. Some other companies (like Hero Forge as we all found out today) do, which is kind of what I was getting at to the OP.
True, but to go down the legal rabbit hole, putting something in a contract doesn't make it legal or binding as well. I mean, they COULD put "we own your first born" into their TOS too.
I will fully agree that in current climate, it's likely that Heroforge would send a CnD and most people won't have the interest to fight it making it all moot. I'm not convinced that a sympathetic court would play along though if someone were to fight it. I think, personally, that there is too much invested by the user to force them to forfeit their rights. On the other hand, meh, as you said, who's got the money to fight it?
So yeah, you really should double check and if you get called on it, make right by the ToS.
I will fully agree that in current climate, it's likely that Heroforge would send a CnD and most people won't have the interest to fight it making it all moot. I'm not convinced that a sympathetic court would play along though if someone were to fight it. I think, personally, that there is too much invested by the user to force them to forfeit their rights. On the other hand, meh, as you said, who's got the money to fight it?
The thing to remember about copyright is that more than one person can have rights to the same work, and everyone with rights has to allow a given use. This can wind up in a situation where no-one has the rights to use a particular work.
You assumed correctly and this is what I was assuming was the answer but my searches were not giving me any straight answers. I appreciate your thoroughness!
...hope my viewers and players love kinda pitiful drawings!
Completely fair and one of the reasons I'm seriously looking into this! I don't want to be stealing someone's work. I honestly was wondering if using icons with artwork and crediting is like advertising? I really wish I made enough to be able to support wotc and dndbeyond (I make maaaaaybe pennies a stream) because they've made my life so much fuller.
Completely fair and one of the reasons I'm seriously looking into this! I don't want to be stealing someone's work. I honestly was wondering if using icons with artwork and crediting is like advertising? I really wish I made enough to be able to support wotc and dndbeyond (I make maaaaaybe pennies a stream) because they've made my life so much fuller.
Well, some creators may certainly see it as advertising, and be into it. Particularly if you agree to advertise them actively, like mentioning how the "tokens in our stream were created by Bilbo Baggins, who also does commissions, and more. Check out their website for details." Really what I was getting at was, you should ask. Smaller time folks might be willing to let you do it just for the exposure, you never know.
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Update - yall are awesome and I really appreciate all the thought and work and advice that has gone into responding to this! I will be looking onto a HeroForge membership and filling out their form to be able to use that as tokens! Waaaaay better than my pitiful drawing skills.
TLDR: wanting to stream, what can I use for icons without violating copyright?
I'm relatively new to online games and already my icons leave something to be desired. But we have fun! I'm starting a new campaign in my homebrew world and we are wanting to stream it. What is it okay for me to use as icons? I've purchased content on here so can I use icons from the artwork in the books I've purchased as long as I put somewhere that's where the art comes from?
Thanks!
Depends on what you are wanting to use. Most of the monsters that can be found in the Basic rules are pretty free to use, both stats and art, for most game purposes. I'm pretty sure there are still notes in the printed versions of the Monster Manual and other play materials that allow for copying and other fair-use options for gaming purposes. I would imagine that using the art to make a monster token for an online game would be similar to physically printing up the art of a monster for a 2-d token on a game mat in physical play settings.
I’m writing this assuming that you intend to stream and make some money from the process, not just for personal use. If that’s the case, giving credit to the owner of an intellectual property does not make it alright to use their property. You are (presumably) trying to make money by using their property. No copyright owner would allow this. You need to pay them for it, or otherwise get their permission. In writing if you know what’s good for you. You could approach them about a licensing deal, but unless you’re already famous, odds are they won’t even bother to return your calls.
You have two realistic options that won’t get you a cease-and-desist letter. One: Draw them yourself so you are the copyright owner. Two: Hire an artist to create them for you, and make it clear in the contract that you are purchasing them for commercial, broadcast use.
Also, I’m not a lawyer. You should check with one before you attempt to use anyone else’s material.
Now, if I misunderstood, and this is just for you and your friends and no one else will ever see it, then pretty much everything is fair game.
Anything where the copyright has expired, or the copyright owner has given permission for the use you wish to make (there are also exceptions for fair use, but they probably aren't important for your use case). For WotC, it looks like the relevant policy is here (and it looks like you'd probably be fine, but read it for yourself).
I could be wrong but I've been using a lot of tokens that I made in Heroforge. One of the features of buying a membership is that you can generate tokens for download. I've done that a good amount and it seems to be good to go.
I'll be honest I haven't read deep into the rules on Heroforge to see for sure what they say about use during streaming but there IS a difference between using the icon on a game stream where you're making a couple hundred a month vs publishing them in a book and selling them. If you are worried about such things, you can get a lot of mileage while streaming using a colored square with a letter in it as a token. Unless you're going all in on one of the virtual table tops.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I am a freelance writer (nothing any of you have read), so I've learned a bit about copyright/intellectual property. My understanding is that if you do not "vigorously defend" a copyright, you can lose it. So, for the creator of the IP, there isn't really much difference between someone making a couple bucks streaming vs. thousands from publishing a book, vs really big bucks trying to turn it into a Netflix series. If they notice you using their property, usually the first step will be to have their lawyers send a letter telling you to stop. That counts as a defense; is usually enough to get people to stop; and is the cheapest, easiest and fastest way to deal with it. Lawsuits come later and they prefer to avoid them because they can be expensive, but if the alternative is losing their IP, that's what they'll do.
Also, the law aside, someone worked hard to make whatever it is your using. You should respect that and pay them for their work. I know that if I publish a story on one website (who pays me for it), but another picks it up because they think everything on the Internet is free (it's happened), I get pissed (or triggered as you younger folks say). They stole that story. I made it, someone else paid for the rights to it. The third party shouldn't get a free ride.
It didn't take much looking, but to use HeroForge assets in a stream or any other media where there's monetization in any form, there is in fact a clearance/permission process. Their FAQ "Can I use HeroForge minis in my stream or show?" takes you to this form:
https://www.heroforge.com/media-request/?path=show
If the media is not monetized in any way, you're good to go. If there's money involved, there's a form to fill out.
Yes, my avatar was made in HeroForge. I do not make any money from posting here.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This is true and as someone who PAYS to use the Heroforge site, I should have done a little more look to be sure I was in the full clear to use tokens from it on my stream.
That said, it would be HORRIBLE business for them to send a CnD letter. Given my options out there I could also just stop paying my monthly fee to get the cooler features on their website and find another option for putting 2d graphics up on my stream while I play. I'm not Matt Mercer and while, technically, I am monetized (to pizza money basically at the moment), I don't feel I'm worth it over a few pictures.
I mean even if they sued, what damages would be fair? Semi legit question but from strictly a compensatory point of view, I AM paying them, and I can also claim some level of ownership as I was the one that used their tools to make the art. Now, yes, their TOS has all this language about 'we retain the rights...' which works... UNTIL it's challenged. A decent lawyer could make the case that such terms are unenforceable the same way that Adobe doesn't own the rights to what you draw if you do it on their art platform. I'd have to do some digging to see what the precedent is out there. Or that Microsoft owns your story because you typed it on Word.
I hear you, you're right. If someone writes something (I actually have/had a novel up on Amazon) they deserve money. No reposts for freebies. And I hear your trigger moment. I got a review that was very high praise for the book that ended with "I hope the author does another free weekend; everyone should read this!" Or, pal, you could tell your friends to buy it.... ?
Sorry for the derail.. been a morning...
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
So now you know there's a form to fill out, a really simple one with HeroForge (more likely so they have a record of their license agreement being rendered to you), are you going to simply refuse to ask permission? It's probably a rubber stamp process, although I could see someone like HeroForge perhaps having misgivings with its tools being used to create content considered offensive.
"I only make pizza money, I ain't worth the work put into a CnD," you overestimate the amount of work a CnD or takedown notice requires. Then the onus is on you to appeal, if it was a take down, or comply. Sure "any lawyer (versed in IP and ToS rights) could fight this" but are you going to find a lawyer who will defend you with your pizza proceeds?
Probability of it happening? Unlikely, but what's the hurt in registering your use with them? Heck, if your audience eventually provides beyond pizza purveyors and you inadvertently go viral, HeroForge may be an interested sponsor, or may give you even earlier access to new concepts as a way to in kind promote the brand.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
For the record I did fill out the form so now they are infinitely more likely know I'm using the content than if I had not.
~~shrug~~
We'll see what comes of it all.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
Good luck, Rorlins. I'm sorry you had a rough morning.
To answer what you said in your earlier post, Microsoft, for example, does not include in its terms of service a claim to ownership of the things created with its product, so that's why they wouldn't be able to say they own things you create in word. Some other companies (like Hero Forge as we all found out today) do, which is kind of what I was getting at to the OP.
And to get back to the OP, I hope that this discussion answered your questions. In short, don't assume you can use something. It's going to be safer to assume you can't, read the Terms of Service, and ask permission. Probably you won't get sued, and realistically the worst is that you'll just get an angry letter, but better to avoid the hassle.
Most RPG companies consider streaming (and other forms of fan content that don't actually permit people to bypass buying their product) free advertising, and thus are fine with it as long as you don't use it for offensive content or to advertise sources for pirated content, but in the end there isn't a lot you can know about what's allowed without checking with the IP owner.
True, but to go down the legal rabbit hole, putting something in a contract doesn't make it legal or binding as well. I mean, they COULD put "we own your first born" into their TOS too.
I will fully agree that in current climate, it's likely that Heroforge would send a CnD and most people won't have the interest to fight it making it all moot. I'm not convinced that a sympathetic court would play along though if someone were to fight it. I think, personally, that there is too much invested by the user to force them to forfeit their rights. On the other hand, meh, as you said, who's got the money to fight it?
So yeah, you really should double check and if you get called on it, make right by the ToS.
"Teller of tales, dreamer of dreams"
Tips, Tricks, Maps: Lantern Noir Presents
**Streams hosted at at twitch.tv/LaternNoir
The thing to remember about copyright is that more than one person can have rights to the same work, and everyone with rights has to allow a given use. This can wind up in a situation where no-one has the rights to use a particular work.
You assumed correctly and this is what I was assuming was the answer but my searches were not giving me any straight answers. I appreciate your thoroughness!
...hope my viewers and players love kinda pitiful drawings!
Completely fair and one of the reasons I'm seriously looking into this! I don't want to be stealing someone's work. I honestly was wondering if using icons with artwork and crediting is like advertising? I really wish I made enough to be able to support wotc and dndbeyond (I make maaaaaybe pennies a stream) because they've made my life so much fuller.
This is great to know!
Well, some creators may certainly see it as advertising, and be into it. Particularly if you agree to advertise them actively, like mentioning how the "tokens in our stream were created by Bilbo Baggins, who also does commissions, and more. Check out their website for details." Really what I was getting at was, you should ask. Smaller time folks might be willing to let you do it just for the exposure, you never know.