After doing some research into Bronze dragons and I found that they are more lawful than good. So I then thought what if a Bronze dragon just made itself the leader of a kingdom and made absolute law. You think it would be a good villain, any thoughts?
Are its laws good? Are they beneficial? If so, then why would it be a villain? Why would you select the Bronze Dragon as a villain? Blue Dragons and Green Dragons are also Lawful, but are Evil, and would make a better villain for a good-aligned party.
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Certainly a interesting topic when law and order becomes draconian with questions of the greater good at its heart...
I think it has a strong moral question at its centre personally I'd find that daunting, I'm quite happy not to have heavy moral dilemmas fantastical or not in my life currently.
clear goodies and baddies or at least baddies that know they are baddies and pretend to be goodies for me currently... That's maybe something to consider about your players what they are up for before you put to much time into that kind of a plot ie where the Bronze Dragon thinks it's doing good... I don't know certainly very interesting idea looking forward to hearing how it turns out.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I think that a Bronze Dragon could be a great villain. Personally my games I tend to run the good vs evil alignment more like a community focus vs self interest, I think the easy clear line of good/evil is a bit less interesting because it becomes almost cartoonish at a certain point.
So lets say the bronze dragon has taken over and established a very strict set of laws. What has that done? Maybe at first there was a drop in crime and things seemed great, but then slowly this law became more and more tyrannical. It doesn't have to be 'evil' per say but imagine an increasingly stringent regime that is now cracking down on an expressions of thought that aren't 100% in lockstep with theirs.
Depends on what kind of game you want to run but you could go very dystopian with it if you wanted. Kids are taken away from their families and raised in giant schools to never question the dragon. Philosophers, artists, writers are imprisoned for expressing views that are not prescribed by the dragon. Even a 'Good' aligned creature with enough power could become a really compelling villain if you take it far enough.
My plan for using the Bronze dragon was to have the party sail through the archipelago that the bronze dragon rules with the party being stopped and them, their crew, and their cargo recorded and inspected for legal and safety reasons and they are asked to go through some legal paperwork so they can legally sail and transport goods (and if their pet wyvern is still alive they need to get a pet license), they are then free to explore the main island while law enforcement searches their ships until the law finds a magical very evil artifact that the party was transporting away from the villain. After that it's up to the party.
I can't see why the party would object. No matter what critter was in charge. If they knew the artifact was evil they should be relived if it gets taken away, and if they didn't know, they should still be relived that it didn't get to do harm. I can easily see a Bronze dragon doing something like this. So what gives? Is the party full of evil characters?
I think I've got a backstory for the Bronze dragon, before it was known as the ruler of the Bronze Archipelago it was known for deposing the tyrant kings and replacing them with good and just ones, but after deposing a particularly cruel king, who's family it put in power, it grew tired of it's perfect and good law always shifting into entropy and evil, so it decided to put itself in charge of the archipelago, and provided support to the to those in need in an attempt to make it so that people will not break the law out of desperation. The main reason why people view the dragon as evil is the punishments for the breaking of the laws are overly cruel even for a mid evil like society.
Also the effect of the evil artifact causes all corpses or skeletons of any creature to become undead and attack on one day of the month.
Why would a Lawful Good creature be using overly cruel punishments? Given what was used in the mid-ages, that boggles the mind. They tortured people to death back then. What is more cruel than that? On second thought, don't answer that. I don't want to know.
The Artifact is indeed a horror that needs to be destroyed. Once again, why would anyone object to that? I can see *evil* creatures who wouldn't want the streets filled with walking dead one day a month.
Purely on the issue of alignment, being "good" does not mean that there can't be conflict with other "good" creatures. Good leaders sometimes need to make tough decisions with unknowable consequences. Leader A believes path A to be the "correct" path, while Leader B believes path B to be the "correct" path, either option might succeed, but only if the decision is unanimous. Ergo, Leader A and Leader B must settle their differences immediately, or both will fail. In a messy world, the only way to ensure survival may be through violence.
There is also the matter of timescales. Dragons live to be 1000+, while many humanoids live to be 80~200. What might seem like a "reign of darkness" for generations of humans, might just be "cleaning house" for a dragon, who is preparing a better world for the following 500+ years.
Good, in this context, is doing "as little harm as necessary" to ensure the survival of the larger community, which can include some pretty horrendous acts.
This perspective would lead your Bronze dragon to be an "anti-villain".
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
While dragons are listed with an alignment, any creature with Free Will is subject to a change of heart. While the dragon may have taken on its mantle from a desire to do good, it is easy to imagine it becoming corrupted by its position and turning evil over time.
Zariel, the angel who was so driven to destroy demons that they became an Archdevil, would be good inspiration for this.
I have had a silver dragon BBEG who, in the process of her research, discovered an end of the world prophecy. She became obsessed with preventing this only to become the cause of it and therefore the BBEG, she decided then only way to stop evil taking over was to cast a ritual that would destroy all evil creatures in the material plane.
The players where helped to stop her by a green dragon, for the first half of the campaign they where convinced green dragon was the bbeg and silver was good. Making metallic dragons the bad guy is a great way to manipulate player expectations and surprise them.
I love the idea of a BBEG Bronze Dragon, and it could prove to be very interesting as the dragon would not be strictly evil.
I would suggest making both sides on this little draconic coin, the side who has benefitet from the dragon and support it. Maybe farmers who were once assaulted by pirates and bandits now have it a lot easier, because they would not possess dangerous magic which might attract the attention of the dragon. I recall Bronze dragons like to interact with humans, so maybe your dragon makes a habit of secretly wander the countryside in humanoid form and visiting farmers, peasants and others. Might even be a twist that it sometimes takes the guise of a school teacher, or has an alias of another nature. Maybe the group will even travell with the dragon for a while without them knowing.
The other side would be those who dislike the dragon, who more than others would be against these new strict laws. (For both good and ill) Maybe trade becomes more controlled than it was before? Magic items needs license, and same with magic users. Is it cruel? Are there other dragons who view it as wrong?
The players might run into both these sides, and the dragon might not even be an issue at first, despite being the BBEG it could start off as more of a neutral party, maybe even ally if the group proves they can help the cause. If it were me I would start out with a positive encounter, make it likable, wise and seemingly perfect in its rule. As time goes the heroes might find flaws, maybe a law that is... odd, or rumours about punishments that seem a little harsh, prison islands? stripping magicians of their magic with anti-magic collars? Breeding programs to make better citizens? Could be anything.
I hope I could be of some help, it does seem like a nice idea!
I was originally going to introduce the dragon in the court room but secretly introducing it and having interact with the party would be amazing.
Magic especially sorcery is heavily monitored and policed. The same goes for trade which many many outside countries have a problem with due to the Bronze Archipelago being a major trade route.
The main punishment for the breaking of laws is the stripping of the right you abused, for example if you use something with out the proper paperwork they are permanently stripped of that thing even if it is bodily of magical, but the punishment of conscientiously breaking the law is the same no matter what law is broken, the stripping of the right of free will.
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After doing some research into Bronze dragons and I found that they are more lawful than good. So I then thought what if a Bronze dragon just made itself the leader of a kingdom and made absolute law. You think it would be a good villain, any thoughts?
Are its laws good? Are they beneficial? If so, then why would it be a villain? Why would you select the Bronze Dragon as a villain? Blue Dragons and Green Dragons are also Lawful, but are Evil, and would make a better villain for a good-aligned party.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Certainly a interesting topic when law and order becomes draconian with questions of the greater good at its heart...
I think it has a strong moral question at its centre personally I'd find that daunting, I'm quite happy not to have heavy moral dilemmas fantastical or not in my life currently.
clear goodies and baddies or at least baddies that know they are baddies and pretend to be goodies for me currently... That's maybe something to consider about your players what they are up for before you put to much time into that kind of a plot ie where the Bronze Dragon thinks it's doing good... I don't know certainly very interesting idea looking forward to hearing how it turns out.
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I think that a Bronze Dragon could be a great villain. Personally my games I tend to run the good vs evil alignment more like a community focus vs self interest, I think the easy clear line of good/evil is a bit less interesting because it becomes almost cartoonish at a certain point.
So lets say the bronze dragon has taken over and established a very strict set of laws. What has that done? Maybe at first there was a drop in crime and things seemed great, but then slowly this law became more and more tyrannical. It doesn't have to be 'evil' per say but imagine an increasingly stringent regime that is now cracking down on an expressions of thought that aren't 100% in lockstep with theirs.
Depends on what kind of game you want to run but you could go very dystopian with it if you wanted. Kids are taken away from their families and raised in giant schools to never question the dragon. Philosophers, artists, writers are imprisoned for expressing views that are not prescribed by the dragon. Even a 'Good' aligned creature with enough power could become a really compelling villain if you take it far enough.
My plan for using the Bronze dragon was to have the party sail through the archipelago that the bronze dragon rules with the party being stopped and them, their crew, and their cargo recorded and inspected for legal and safety reasons and they are asked to go through some legal paperwork so they can legally sail and transport goods (and if their pet wyvern is still alive they need to get a pet license), they are then free to explore the main island while law enforcement searches their ships until the law finds a magical very evil artifact that the party was transporting away from the villain. After that it's up to the party.
I can't see why the party would object. No matter what critter was in charge. If they knew the artifact was evil they should be relived if it gets taken away, and if they didn't know, they should still be relived that it didn't get to do harm. I can easily see a Bronze dragon doing something like this. So what gives? Is the party full of evil characters?
<Insert clever signature here>
I think I've got a backstory for the Bronze dragon, before it was known as the ruler of the Bronze Archipelago it was known for deposing the tyrant kings and replacing them with good and just ones, but after deposing a particularly cruel king, who's family it put in power, it grew tired of it's perfect and good law always shifting into entropy and evil, so it decided to put itself in charge of the archipelago, and provided support to the to those in need in an attempt to make it so that people will not break the law out of desperation. The main reason why people view the dragon as evil is the punishments for the breaking of the laws are overly cruel even for a mid evil like society.
Also the effect of the evil artifact causes all corpses or skeletons of any creature to become undead and attack on one day of the month.
Why would a Lawful Good creature be using overly cruel punishments? Given what was used in the mid-ages, that boggles the mind. They tortured people to death back then. What is more cruel than that? On second thought, don't answer that. I don't want to know.
The Artifact is indeed a horror that needs to be destroyed. Once again, why would anyone object to that? I can see *evil* creatures who wouldn't want the streets filled with walking dead one day a month.
<Insert clever signature here>
"Good for me does not mean good for thee."
Purely on the issue of alignment, being "good" does not mean that there can't be conflict with other "good" creatures. Good leaders sometimes need to make tough decisions with unknowable consequences. Leader A believes path A to be the "correct" path, while Leader B believes path B to be the "correct" path, either option might succeed, but only if the decision is unanimous. Ergo, Leader A and Leader B must settle their differences immediately, or both will fail. In a messy world, the only way to ensure survival may be through violence.
There is also the matter of timescales. Dragons live to be 1000+, while many humanoids live to be 80~200. What might seem like a "reign of darkness" for generations of humans, might just be "cleaning house" for a dragon, who is preparing a better world for the following 500+ years.
Good, in this context, is doing "as little harm as necessary" to ensure the survival of the larger community, which can include some pretty horrendous acts.
This perspective would lead your Bronze dragon to be an "anti-villain".
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
While dragons are listed with an alignment, any creature with Free Will is subject to a change of heart. While the dragon may have taken on its mantle from a desire to do good, it is easy to imagine it becoming corrupted by its position and turning evil over time.
Zariel, the angel who was so driven to destroy demons that they became an Archdevil, would be good inspiration for this.
I have had a silver dragon BBEG who, in the process of her research, discovered an end of the world prophecy. She became obsessed with preventing this only to become the cause of it and therefore the BBEG, she decided then only way to stop evil taking over was to cast a ritual that would destroy all evil creatures in the material plane.
The players where helped to stop her by a green dragon, for the first half of the campaign they where convinced green dragon was the bbeg and silver was good. Making metallic dragons the bad guy is a great way to manipulate player expectations and surprise them.
I love the idea of a BBEG Bronze Dragon, and it could prove to be very interesting as the dragon would not be strictly evil.
I would suggest making both sides on this little draconic coin, the side who has benefitet from the dragon and support it. Maybe farmers who were once assaulted by pirates and bandits now have it a lot easier, because they would not possess dangerous magic which might attract the attention of the dragon. I recall Bronze dragons like to interact with humans, so maybe your dragon makes a habit of secretly wander the countryside in humanoid form and visiting farmers, peasants and others. Might even be a twist that it sometimes takes the guise of a school teacher, or has an alias of another nature. Maybe the group will even travell with the dragon for a while without them knowing.
The other side would be those who dislike the dragon, who more than others would be against these new strict laws. (For both good and ill) Maybe trade becomes more controlled than it was before? Magic items needs license, and same with magic users. Is it cruel? Are there other dragons who view it as wrong?
The players might run into both these sides, and the dragon might not even be an issue at first, despite being the BBEG it could start off as more of a neutral party, maybe even ally if the group proves they can help the cause. If it were me I would start out with a positive encounter, make it likable, wise and seemingly perfect in its rule. As time goes the heroes might find flaws, maybe a law that is... odd, or rumours about punishments that seem a little harsh, prison islands? stripping magicians of their magic with anti-magic collars? Breeding programs to make better citizens? Could be anything.
I hope I could be of some help, it does seem like a nice idea!
I was originally going to introduce the dragon in the court room but secretly introducing it and having interact with the party would be amazing.
Magic especially sorcery is heavily monitored and policed. The same goes for trade which many many outside countries have a problem with due to the Bronze Archipelago being a major trade route.
The main punishment for the breaking of laws is the stripping of the right you abused, for example if you use something with out the proper paperwork they are permanently stripped of that thing even if it is bodily of magical, but the punishment of conscientiously breaking the law is the same no matter what law is broken, the stripping of the right of free will.