We've had them in 5e since page 255 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Nice to have, at the time, but fairly specific and situational. Then came Ghosts of Saltmarsh, where they became pretty prevalent as a vessel's primary method of engaging in combat. Then, came Descent to Avernus, where we get wicked awesome (pun intended) war machines.
Here's my issue though. We have these weapons which are well established and laid out and, most importantly, potentially available to players.... but don't really have a guideline for how much those pretty pieces cost. And without knowing how much they cost, we have to wing it in regards to how long they take to manufacture. And if we don't have that information for the cannons in canon (I'm on a roll with these puns), how are we as DM's supposed to fairly put a price on homebrewed siege equipment?
My personal method up to now has been to take a given siege weapon and shrink it down. If the weapon resembles or functions like a weapon a player can purchase, I take that weapon, triple it's price, and assign that value as the price of the siege weapon version. As an example: a ballista is basically a giant heavy crossbow. It fits nicely because a ballista just also happens to have 3x the damage dice a heavy crossbow does. So we take the price of a heavy crossbow (50gp) and multiply it by three. Ballistas cost 150gp. Boom: done. (Though I suppose ballistas don't go boom, do they?.... they go "thwum" or "twang" or something like that....)
This may seem cheap to some, but my reasoning is that siege weapons have enough of a cost (presented in their action economy and severely limited mobility) to already severely limit their widespread use as a solution to all combat situations.
The problem with my method, is that we have some pretty neat weapon concepts laid out in the good old DMG that scaled up would make really fun toys to dangle in front of my players... but they also don't have listed prices. How much in skill and material goes into making an laser rifle anyway? And if you scale you scale it up into a photon cannon, sure, I could rely on my good old method of tripling the player weapon version.... but what am I tripling?
Any other thoughts/methods/reasoning for assigning a monetary price tag to castle-killing weapons?
IIRC, the old 1st ed DMG has prices for siege weapons (somewhere between the explanation of which psionic defense counters which psionic attack and the legendary Random Prostitute Table). I can't say what their method was for arriving at their prices.
Generally, I just look up stuff like that in other sources. Either old D&D or 3rd party supplements or depending on the tech setting of the world, even an old Sears and Roebuck catalog. I'm not sure that you can scale up the price of something like a laser cannon that way. The item itself implies a society with economies of scale that wouldn't exist in most high fantasy settings.
The D&D economy is a mess when looking at larger scale items...a warhorse is worth twice the value of an elephant...a chariot is worth 2.5 times a modest house (using the 100gp low end for a small estate in the DMG). Boats bigger than a rowboat cost 3000gp and up.
personally, I like the idea of tripling the small scale items value that you mentioned, and then add the cost of an appropriate vehicle and draft animal. So 150 Gp for the ballista, plus 15-45gp for its vehicle plus 100 gp for two draft horses. A siege tower might cost 100 gp (small house) plus an elephant to pull it (200gp). Adding armor would increase the cost though (use the barding multiplier)
Hmmm. This concept would let me build an Orc mercenary that carries around a Terry Pratchett-style "Piecemaker" siege crossbow.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
While it would be cool, most DMs (myself includes) would impose a penalty of some kind, as most siege weapons are Large, immobile objects. Drag around, maybe, but not likely carry.
Hmmm. This concept would let me build an Orc mercenary that carries around a Terry Pratchett-style "Piecemaker" siege crossbow.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
While it would be cool, most DMs (myself includes) would impose a penalty of some kind, as most siege weapons are Large, immobile objects. Drag around, maybe, but not likely carry.
Oh, it would definitely have to be mounted on some kind of shoulder-strap harness. And it would probably take an action to reload AND an action to cock. And your movement speed would probably be reduced. Maybe even "unable to hit mobile targets within 15 feet" or something.
The problem with my method, is that we have some pretty neat weapon concepts laid out in the good old DMG that scaled up would make really fun toys to dangle in front of my players... but they also don't have listed prices. How much in skill and material goes into making an laser rifle anyway? And if you scale you scale it up into a photon cannon, sure, I could rely on my good old method of tripling the player weapon version.... but what am I tripling?
Laser rifles are priceless, so a large country should be enough to buy one. A photon cannon would be worth as much as a plane, I'd imagine.
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Laser rifles are priceless, so a large country should be enough to buy one. A photon cannon would be worth as much as a plane, I'd imagine.
That actually depends entirely on your setting. In a setting where they are rare, or even one-of-a-kind, sure. But if you're running a homebrew campaign where any/all nonmagical weapons are produced en masse and available for sale? Not so much.
Plus, as we've seen time and time again throughout the canonical history of all D&D settings and player character anecdotes: there is no such thing as either priceless or worthless. If it exists, someone will put a price tag on it, collect it, or try to make armor out of it.
Laser rifles are priceless, so a large country should be enough to buy one. A photon cannon would be worth as much as a plane, I'd imagine.
That actually depends entirely on your setting. In a setting where they are rare, or even one-of-a-kind, sure. But if you're running a homebrew campaign where any/all nonmagical weapons are produced en masse and available for sale? Not so much.
Plus, as we've seen time and time again throughout the canonical history of all D&D settings and player character anecdotes: there is no such thing as either priceless or worthless. If it exists, someone will put a price tag on it, collect it, or try to make armor out of it.
I guess.
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This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco. No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
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Siege weapons.
We've had them in 5e since page 255 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Nice to have, at the time, but fairly specific and situational. Then came Ghosts of Saltmarsh, where they became pretty prevalent as a vessel's primary method of engaging in combat. Then, came Descent to Avernus, where we get wicked awesome (pun intended) war machines.
Here's my issue though. We have these weapons which are well established and laid out and, most importantly, potentially available to players.... but don't really have a guideline for how much those pretty pieces cost. And without knowing how much they cost, we have to wing it in regards to how long they take to manufacture. And if we don't have that information for the cannons in canon (I'm on a roll with these puns), how are we as DM's supposed to fairly put a price on homebrewed siege equipment?
My personal method up to now has been to take a given siege weapon and shrink it down. If the weapon resembles or functions like a weapon a player can purchase, I take that weapon, triple it's price, and assign that value as the price of the siege weapon version. As an example: a ballista is basically a giant heavy crossbow. It fits nicely because a ballista just also happens to have 3x the damage dice a heavy crossbow does. So we take the price of a heavy crossbow (50gp) and multiply it by three. Ballistas cost 150gp. Boom: done. (Though I suppose ballistas don't go boom, do they?.... they go "thwum" or "twang" or something like that....)
This may seem cheap to some, but my reasoning is that siege weapons have enough of a cost (presented in their action economy and severely limited mobility) to already severely limit their widespread use as a solution to all combat situations.
The problem with my method, is that we have some pretty neat weapon concepts laid out in the good old DMG that scaled up would make really fun toys to dangle in front of my players... but they also don't have listed prices. How much in skill and material goes into making an laser rifle anyway? And if you scale you scale it up into a photon cannon, sure, I could rely on my good old method of tripling the player weapon version.... but what am I tripling?
Any other thoughts/methods/reasoning for assigning a monetary price tag to castle-killing weapons?
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
IIRC, the old 1st ed DMG has prices for siege weapons (somewhere between the explanation of which psionic defense counters which psionic attack and the legendary Random Prostitute Table). I can't say what their method was for arriving at their prices.
Generally, I just look up stuff like that in other sources. Either old D&D or 3rd party supplements or depending on the tech setting of the world, even an old Sears and Roebuck catalog. I'm not sure that you can scale up the price of something like a laser cannon that way. The item itself implies a society with economies of scale that wouldn't exist in most high fantasy settings.
The D&D economy is a mess when looking at larger scale items...a warhorse is worth twice the value of an elephant...a chariot is worth 2.5 times a modest house (using the 100gp low end for a small estate in the DMG). Boats bigger than a rowboat cost 3000gp and up.
personally, I like the idea of tripling the small scale items value that you mentioned, and then add the cost of an appropriate vehicle and draft animal. So 150 Gp for the ballista, plus 15-45gp for its vehicle plus 100 gp for two draft horses. A siege tower might cost 100 gp (small house) plus an elephant to pull it (200gp). Adding armor would increase the cost though (use the barding multiplier)
Hmmm. This concept would let me build an Orc mercenary that carries around a Terry Pratchett-style "Piecemaker" siege crossbow.
"When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend."
While it would be cool, most DMs (myself includes) would impose a penalty of some kind, as most siege weapons are Large, immobile objects. Drag around, maybe, but not likely carry.
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
Oh, it would definitely have to be mounted on some kind of shoulder-strap harness. And it would probably take an action to reload AND an action to cock. And your movement speed would probably be reduced. Maybe even "unable to hit mobile targets within 15 feet" or something.
Laser rifles are priceless, so a large country should be enough to buy one. A photon cannon would be worth as much as a plane, I'd imagine.
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco.
No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.
That actually depends entirely on your setting. In a setting where they are rare, or even one-of-a-kind, sure. But if you're running a homebrew campaign where any/all nonmagical weapons are produced en masse and available for sale? Not so much.
Plus, as we've seen time and time again throughout the canonical history of all D&D settings and player character anecdotes: there is no such thing as either priceless or worthless. If it exists, someone will put a price tag on it, collect it, or try to make armor out of it.
Ongoing Projects: The Mimic Book of Mimics :: SHARK WEEK
Completed Projects: The Trick-or-Treat Table
My Homebrews: Races :: Classes :: Spells :: Items :: Monsters
I guess.
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco.
No connection to Dragonslayer8 other than knowing them in real life.