I’ve a problem. One of my players, lovely soul, is playing a Level 8 Drow Illusion School Wizard. They’re very much a specialist and favor spells that focus on their character’s flavoring. They also tend to really dislike using any majorly damaging spells. It bores them.
Simlly put, this is really antithetical to how I run combat, and I just DON’T find Illusion spells particularly useful in a lot of contexts. Particularly in this campaign, they run up against a lot of foes that can see through Illusions or creatures that are too goddamn stupid to care.
I don’t want to just keep blueballing them, but I also don’t want to move the goalposts to be like, “Oh gosh! The enemies are so blown away and terrified of your illusions, they all off themselves rather than face what they think you’ve conjured up!” I want the player’s victories to feel like victories, but I just don’t think illusions have much utility in fights, especially when your teammates are beaning foes over the head with smites, volleys of arrows, and spells that actually go boom.
What the Hell do I do? I’ve tried to give the character damaging spells and survival spells at every opportunity, and she’ll use them, but it just seems to bore her player and gives them no sense of accomplishment.
Advice? I feel like I’m consistently failing this player or telling them to play differently than they want to.
Illusionists need a lot of creativity with their spells but they can totally use illusions for battlefield control. But that requires roleplaying approaches even in combat. Phantasmal Force can be used to take out especially stupid enemies for the full duration of the spell without doing any damage to the target. You can distract or cut off parts of the enemy forces with illusions, and so on.
Other than that, illusionist shine in non-combat situations. But, if your game is combat heavy, that maybe should have been already clarified in session 0?
I honestly don't know what to think about this, for one he sounds like she is playing something he wants to play, two its obliviously not going too well in the campaign. As it bores her to death. Is she well done out of combat, probably.
Here's the thing Illusions are not meant to be the main highlight in a combat encounter; out of combat is where they shine so Its really hard if not impractical to use such spells during combat so yes I get what you mean but that's also the problem. You really need to help her with their build as if you where helping a Warlock as warlocks are very DM dependent (Not exactly useless though that's not what I am aiming for) Unless you want to give her a hard time which can spark her neurons to think; unless she is susceptible to stress this wont work.
Things you can do is let her illusions go to some form of trap in some way. The problem is the enemies that are clearly ignoring the Illusionist wizard spells as well. You can't really force a player if their that determined to play as something. Recommendations are a choice: What you did is honestly a good thing as you are trying at most to persuade her with different options but the fact she took that wizard subclass for that purpose alone defeats the purpose off her having to use mainly healing or damaging spells. If her character is that adamant with her specific build. Some times it okay to let it be and do nothing about it talk even out of game.
Another thing or way we can do this is to give a different character: Most likely a Martial Character the ability to dish out extra damage or have an magic item that can heal in place of what the other party is not able to give you. (If they are that adamant about staying with what they have).
Don't make them desperate: Eg. Don't force them in a situation where in they will have to be forced to take the spells specific for a combat encounter unless you want to argue with them even more. Only do this if you know or are close too this person (Good Relations) in order to give them a slight push to edge forward; more or less in healing and damaging spells. An Eg; would be tricking her that she is going to get into a situation where Illusions may not be a strong front and the party may or may not die if she does not have at least one healing or damaging spell, (Don't make it to strong though as she might over react on this) and that's honestly taking it a little bit extreme. It gives her no choice and that lingering string of fear that is going to be tugging on her character. (It works but i don't generally recommend this psychological tactic and only use it if you know the person).
Heck If I was that player I would take at least two damaging spells a bit strong bot not overly powerful (just right), two healing and the rest all the way are illusionary. But that is myself. Think a little bit about it, If I where a Chronurgist Wizard I would probably be using most of those Powerful time spells as it is catered specifically to my subclass. Yes it will be my main, but at the same time, whenever you play a Dnd character (this is what I like about dnd) you have to carry on the responsibilities and the burdens of the rolls of each character that comes forth with the game (Not you DM but them); that may or may not reveal more about yourself than you think.
If you want her to be effective (Read this paragraph if you really want to be Ruthless) you really need her to be creative. As the moment she chose what she was going to become on the long haul or short if its a one shot is the moment that she has to perform at her best off her abilities in-order to survive. You have to be absolutely ruthless (Or Not) as a DM not through rules but by how the world will revolve around the actions of the many few with this lacking. After all Imagination is Weapon and if you don't use it you die. (Recommended if close and also issue a warning for them that its going to be brutal if they don't do something) If she is the type of person that operates better in stressful situations then do this. [ Let the lives off her party be in her hands or let her believe it to be at least].
Try removing enemies that are counter intuitive to her subclass and give the chance for them (Not only her) in the party specifically; to each demonstrate their abilities. If not then she has to be incredibly creative to somehow force a Hill Giant to bash itself in the head in order to deal damage, Or trick an enemy to heal an ally of the party instead with its abilities, hell you can prepare to cause an image of an arrow storm just as the ranger is about to fire their arrows at their enemy forcing them to have a higher hit/miss/DC chance or become more panicky in general. manipulate a movement of some sort to give time for the party. Anything works; she just has to be creative and you can help her do that as a DM with suggestions.
And no don't beat yourself up to much with the problem; As this is something you can't inherently have complete control over; and if you try to do so you will strain yourself to much on this, you will never be able to control something that is never in your hands anyways and it shouldn't really be that much of a problem. You've honestly tried, treat yourself to a cup of coffee or a treat. Then if you have time the best way to do this then is to actually talk with the player out of game, Ask, Do, and Resolve.
Try making Illusion Spells useful that's what I suggest; (I can't change how you see illusion spells though), But hell a Giant Accidentally thinks it ate a halfling (Dynamite in reality) would be extremely funny to see.
Ultimately an small victories and a Ultimatum for each action that involves illusions; (Dismiss the redundancy). Meaning the trick doesn't have to be big but somewhat effective. It does not have to be "The entire bandit camp is blown away in fear" No it can just be "Some of the bandits are shocked in confusion, most ignore this fact, but the others are deserting or are entertaining such thoughts."
For the Ultimatum you can make the DC a little bit more higher for bigger victories, but it has to be in her reach somehow with the aid of the party. So that she will at least feel like she is having big victories.
Lastly have fun, you don't have to stick with the rules, their more like guide lines anyways.
Lol, I’ve been DMing for years, but thanks for assuming. We had a session 0. The campaign has been running for almost two years.This is a recent development. It’s the first time I’ve had a Wizard so fixated on a sole school of magic.
It’s not combat heavy, but I definitely get the sense this one would be happiest running the campaign as a slice-of-life anime and never being in combat, which is a bit underwhelming and realistic, I think. I’ve been pretty clear that combat will happen, but I’ll give them (and have given them) a shit ton of time to RP.
They’re good at RPing in combat and are fairly creative, but it’s a general purpose struggle getting this party to strategize a little more, and then this one running into limitations with HAVING spells from other schools of magic but not wanting to use them. I appreciate the dedication to the flavor, but that’s like tying both hands together behind one’s back and trying to win a knife fight with headbutts.
8th level you say? Do they have Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Phantasmal Killer? Those are all great combat-capable illusion spells. They can also use spells like Blur and Mirror Image if they tend to be targeted as a squishy in combat.
We have an illusionist in our group, and one of the things you realize in 5e is that Wizard schools don't lend to 100% specialization. You need other spells (like Counterspell for example is good for any wizard). If you remember the old AD&D, they had stuff like Shadow Magic where is was quasi-real. What I'd suggest to this player is to take some debuff spells to compliment their illusions, and maybe for flavor you skin these spells as illusions that are "so good they are real". I'm thinking Mysterio from Marvel.
If the wizard can make phantasmal opponents, but also conjure real ones, good luck to the opponent that disbelieves them. Have a talk to the player about what they enjoy, and I'd come up with options that do fit your campaign, but let your eager player find their niche.
That’s a really good set of suggestions, Socon, thank you! Reskinning and retooling may allow her some more flexibility, and if I’m sparing with it, it shouldn’t be too troublesome or game-breaking. I’m definitely in the habit of saying yes to my players more than no.
im pretty sure she’s got Mirror Image and I know she’s got Hypnotic Pattern. She seems to have Phantasmal Killer on her radar, which is helpful. Hopefully next level, or possibly I drop her a scroll saleperson before then. She’s getting fairly kitted out at this point, so fortunately she’s not AS easy to kill as she had been, but helping her player think of more ways they can contribute in combat will probably take some time. They haven’t had a lot of prolonged combat before this, and their damaging spells are mostly acidic and poison ones, which I wager you’ll know so many things are resistant or outright immune to. If I recall correctly (it’s been a bit since I cracked it open) Tasha’s has a rule about them being able to swap out Cantrips, but I’ll have to double check. That could be helpful to get her to branch out. If you want damage cantrips, there’s really no reason to pass up the range and output of Chill Touch.
I’m pleasantly surprised to be reminded of AD&D stuff! That’s also a good basis to discuss some things with them and to try to collaborate on how to give the character more opportunities. Fingers crossed!
Thanks again for such a thoughtful and non-patronizing answer!
There are illusions that can actually injure an opponent, having them imagine they are fighting something not only crowd controls them but also make for a fun cool situation with one enemy attacking the air around them and eventually dying.
There's also a bunch of effective illusions, you say they don't care about the illusion? Well make an illusion of a bridge over the chasm, they don't care right? So they'll just storm "over" it. Quick solution with illusions doing the most damage cause 20 orc berserkers just threw themselves over a cliff.
There's even illusions that ARE real. For a bit. So you could make that bridge, cross it, then it's a fake bridge.
Illusions in combat can be really nice even if you don't go for the ones doing actuall damage like shadowblade and phantasmal killer.
Edit: also the hypnotic pattern and similar that just wins the battle by crowd control...
And later on I think it's seeming where you can make the whole team look like the enemies and just walk past any battle or at least get a real good surprise round on them.
Just for the record shadow magic is still a thing, shadow blade and several other spells are illusions made by using that shadow magic to make "real" illusions.
Use dream on the big bad evil guy every night as well. There's so much fun with illusions :)
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Hey all.
I’ve a problem. One of my players, lovely soul, is playing a Level 8 Drow Illusion School Wizard. They’re very much a specialist and favor spells that focus on their character’s flavoring. They also tend to really dislike using any majorly damaging spells. It bores them.
Simlly put, this is really antithetical to how I run combat, and I just DON’T find Illusion spells particularly useful in a lot of contexts. Particularly in this campaign, they run up against a lot of foes that can see through Illusions or creatures that are too goddamn stupid to care.
I don’t want to just keep blueballing them, but I also don’t want to move the goalposts to be like, “Oh gosh! The enemies are so blown away and terrified of your illusions, they all off themselves rather than face what they think you’ve conjured up!” I want the player’s victories to feel like victories, but I just don’t think illusions have much utility in fights, especially when your teammates are beaning foes over the head with smites, volleys of arrows, and spells that actually go boom.
What the Hell do I do? I’ve tried to give the character damaging spells and survival spells at every opportunity, and she’ll use them, but it just seems to bore her player and gives them no sense of accomplishment.
Advice? I feel like I’m consistently failing this player or telling them to play differently than they want to.
Illusionists need a lot of creativity with their spells but they can totally use illusions for battlefield control. But that requires roleplaying approaches even in combat. Phantasmal Force can be used to take out especially stupid enemies for the full duration of the spell without doing any damage to the target. You can distract or cut off parts of the enemy forces with illusions, and so on.
Other than that, illusionist shine in non-combat situations. But, if your game is combat heavy, that maybe should have been already clarified in session 0?
I honestly don't know what to think about this, for one he sounds like she is playing something he wants to play, two its obliviously not going too well in the campaign. As it bores her to death. Is she well done out of combat, probably.
Here's the thing Illusions are not meant to be the main highlight in a combat encounter; out of combat is where they shine so Its really hard if not impractical to use such spells during combat so yes I get what you mean but that's also the problem. You really need to help her with their build as if you where helping a Warlock as warlocks are very DM dependent (Not exactly useless though that's not what I am aiming for) Unless you want to give her a hard time which can spark her neurons to think; unless she is susceptible to stress this wont work.
Things you can do is let her illusions go to some form of trap in some way. The problem is the enemies that are clearly ignoring the Illusionist wizard spells as well. You can't really force a player if their that determined to play as something. Recommendations are a choice: What you did is honestly a good thing as you are trying at most to persuade her with different options but the fact she took that wizard subclass for that purpose alone defeats the purpose off her having to use mainly healing or damaging spells. If her character is that adamant with her specific build. Some times it okay to let it be and do nothing about it talk even out of game.
Another thing or way we can do this is to give a different character: Most likely a Martial Character the ability to dish out extra damage or have an magic item that can heal in place of what the other party is not able to give you. (If they are that adamant about staying with what they have).
Don't make them desperate: Eg. Don't force them in a situation where in they will have to be forced to take the spells specific for a combat encounter unless you want to argue with them even more. Only do this if you know or are close too this person (Good Relations) in order to give them a slight push to edge forward; more or less in healing and damaging spells. An Eg; would be tricking her that she is going to get into a situation where Illusions may not be a strong front and the party may or may not die if she does not have at least one healing or damaging spell, (Don't make it to strong though as she might over react on this) and that's honestly taking it a little bit extreme. It gives her no choice and that lingering string of fear that is going to be tugging on her character. (It works but i don't generally recommend this psychological tactic and only use it if you know the person).
Heck If I was that player I would take at least two damaging spells a bit strong bot not overly powerful (just right), two healing and the rest all the way are illusionary. But that is myself. Think a little bit about it, If I where a Chronurgist Wizard I would probably be using most of those Powerful time spells as it is catered specifically to my subclass. Yes it will be my main, but at the same time, whenever you play a Dnd character (this is what I like about dnd) you have to carry on the responsibilities and the burdens of the rolls of each character that comes forth with the game (Not you DM but them); that may or may not reveal more about yourself than you think.
If you want her to be effective (Read this paragraph if you really want to be Ruthless) you really need her to be creative. As the moment she chose what she was going to become on the long haul or short if its a one shot is the moment that she has to perform at her best off her abilities in-order to survive. You have to be absolutely ruthless (Or Not) as a DM not through rules but by how the world will revolve around the actions of the many few with this lacking. After all Imagination is Weapon and if you don't use it you die. (Recommended if close and also issue a warning for them that its going to be brutal if they don't do something) If she is the type of person that operates better in stressful situations then do this. [ Let the lives off her party be in her hands or let her believe it to be at least].
Try removing enemies that are counter intuitive to her subclass and give the chance for them (Not only her) in the party specifically; to each demonstrate their abilities. If not then she has to be incredibly creative to somehow force a Hill Giant to bash itself in the head in order to deal damage, Or trick an enemy to heal an ally of the party instead with its abilities, hell you can prepare to cause an image of an arrow storm just as the ranger is about to fire their arrows at their enemy forcing them to have a higher hit/miss/DC chance or become more panicky in general. manipulate a movement of some sort to give time for the party. Anything works; she just has to be creative and you can help her do that as a DM with suggestions.
And no don't beat yourself up to much with the problem; As this is something you can't inherently have complete control over; and if you try to do so you will strain yourself to much on this, you will never be able to control something that is never in your hands anyways and it shouldn't really be that much of a problem. You've honestly tried, treat yourself to a cup of coffee or a treat. Then if you have time the best way to do this then is to actually talk with the player out of game, Ask, Do, and Resolve.
Try making Illusion Spells useful that's what I suggest; (I can't change how you see illusion spells though), But hell a Giant Accidentally thinks it ate a halfling (Dynamite in reality) would be extremely funny to see.
Ultimately an small victories and a Ultimatum for each action that involves illusions; (Dismiss the redundancy). Meaning the trick doesn't have to be big but somewhat effective. It does not have to be "The entire bandit camp is blown away in fear" No it can just be "Some of the bandits are shocked in confusion, most ignore this fact, but the others are deserting or are entertaining such thoughts."
For the Ultimatum you can make the DC a little bit more higher for bigger victories, but it has to be in her reach somehow with the aid of the party. So that she will at least feel like she is having big victories.
Lastly have fun, you don't have to stick with the rules, their more like guide lines anyways.
So In short Ask, Do and Resolve.
That's my Insights on this situation.
And also you may need to clarify whether a session is combat heavy or not at session 0.
But if you are a new DM you wouldn't think of such things.
That's part of growing as a DM.
Just came up in my mind lastly, work as a team.
Lol, I’ve been DMing for years, but thanks for assuming. We had a session 0. The campaign has been running for almost two years.This is a recent development. It’s the first time I’ve had a Wizard so fixated on a sole school of magic.
It’s not combat heavy, but I definitely get the sense this one would be happiest running the campaign as a slice-of-life anime and never being in combat, which is a bit underwhelming and realistic, I think. I’ve been pretty clear that combat will happen, but I’ll give them (and have given them) a shit ton of time to RP.
They’re good at RPing in combat and are fairly creative, but it’s a general purpose struggle getting this party to strategize a little more, and then this one running into limitations with HAVING spells from other schools of magic but not wanting to use them. I appreciate the dedication to the flavor, but that’s like tying both hands together behind one’s back and trying to win a knife fight with headbutts.
8th level you say? Do they have Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Phantasmal Killer? Those are all great combat-capable illusion spells. They can also use spells like Blur and Mirror Image if they tend to be targeted as a squishy in combat.
We have an illusionist in our group, and one of the things you realize in 5e is that Wizard schools don't lend to 100% specialization. You need other spells (like Counterspell for example is good for any wizard). If you remember the old AD&D, they had stuff like Shadow Magic where is was quasi-real. What I'd suggest to this player is to take some debuff spells to compliment their illusions, and maybe for flavor you skin these spells as illusions that are "so good they are real". I'm thinking Mysterio from Marvel.
If the wizard can make phantasmal opponents, but also conjure real ones, good luck to the opponent that disbelieves them. Have a talk to the player about what they enjoy, and I'd come up with options that do fit your campaign, but let your eager player find their niche.
That’s a really good set of suggestions, Socon, thank you! Reskinning and retooling may allow her some more flexibility, and if I’m sparing with it, it shouldn’t be too troublesome or game-breaking. I’m definitely in the habit of saying yes to my players more than no.
im pretty sure she’s got Mirror Image and I know she’s got Hypnotic Pattern. She seems to have Phantasmal Killer on her radar, which is helpful. Hopefully next level, or possibly I drop her a scroll saleperson before then. She’s getting fairly kitted out at this point, so fortunately she’s not AS easy to kill as she had been, but helping her player think of more ways they can contribute in combat will probably take some time. They haven’t had a lot of prolonged combat before this, and their damaging spells are mostly acidic and poison ones, which I wager you’ll know so many things are resistant or outright immune to. If I recall correctly (it’s been a bit since I cracked it open) Tasha’s has a rule about them being able to swap out Cantrips, but I’ll have to double check. That could be helpful to get her to branch out. If you want damage cantrips, there’s really no reason to pass up the range and output of Chill Touch.
I’m pleasantly surprised to be reminded of AD&D stuff! That’s also a good basis to discuss some things with them and to try to collaborate on how to give the character more opportunities. Fingers crossed!
Thanks again for such a thoughtful and non-patronizing answer!
There are illusions that can actually injure an opponent, having them imagine they are fighting something not only crowd controls them but also make for a fun cool situation with one enemy attacking the air around them and eventually dying.
There's also a bunch of effective illusions, you say they don't care about the illusion? Well make an illusion of a bridge over the chasm, they don't care right? So they'll just storm "over" it. Quick solution with illusions doing the most damage cause 20 orc berserkers just threw themselves over a cliff.
There's even illusions that ARE real. For a bit. So you could make that bridge, cross it, then it's a fake bridge.
Illusions in combat can be really nice even if you don't go for the ones doing actuall damage like shadowblade and phantasmal killer.
Edit: also the hypnotic pattern and similar that just wins the battle by crowd control...
And later on I think it's seeming where you can make the whole team look like the enemies and just walk past any battle or at least get a real good surprise round on them.
Just for the record shadow magic is still a thing, shadow blade and several other spells are illusions made by using that shadow magic to make "real" illusions.
Use dream on the big bad evil guy every night as well. There's so much fun with illusions :)