So my player wants to make a thrown weapon build using darts. She is asking if I will let her use the Magic Stone cantrip on the darts, making them deal 1d6 + spell mod piercing damage when the dart hits, instead of 1d4 + attack mod. Given that the damage never scales, I believe that this would be okay, since she will not be encountering many creatures with non-magical weapons resistance until tier 2, and it seems like a way to actually make Magic Stone and thrown weapons usable, however, i do not have much experience, and would like to get a second opinion.
This sort of sounds like a flavor thing rather than a rules thing- "is it okay if my pebbles are darts rather than rocks," and whatnot. And most classes capable of casting Magic Stone have proficiency with darts anyhow, so I'm not really sure she needs permission to use either- only to use them in conjunction. Since she has access to each either way, I don't think there's any mechanical impact from letting her flavor Magic Stone and her darts together (especially if she wants to go through the trouble of keeping her stock of darts in check).
This kind of thing gets my alarm bells ringing with the "I don't think you know yet what their 'build' will entail and how this can be abused." It's using a cantrip to increase the average base damage of the attack from 2.5 to 3.5, which doesn't sound like much, but hitting with 4 darts will deal an average 10 damage, while you only need 3 Magic Stones to deal 10.5 damage. Critical hits will average 7 damage instead of 5 damage.
If someone wants to make a build about throwing darts then that's cool - but they should be using darts. If they want to make a build around throwing magic rocks, then use Magic Stone.
I am assuming that when they get Extra Attack the player will want to make multiple attacks using the Magic Stones - as per the spell, this wouldn't work. The spell specifically states that you can choose to make a Ranged Spell Attack, not a Ranged Attack, so it wouldn't be covered by Extra Attack.
If you really want to let the player increase their Dart damage from 1d4 to 1d6 then maybe just make a Homebrew cantrip spell using Magic Stone as a kind of base.
Can OP clarify what class and/or race this PC is playing? I'm not really sure I understand what the problem here is, seeing that this is more of a question of what somebody is allowed to use in the flavoring of Magic Stone rather than if Magic Stone is inherently more powerful than darts as thrown weapons (which, in single damage I suppose yes, but if we're comparing this to a Monk throwing darts for instance then absolutely not). Frankly I feel like it's kind of a nerf if you ask me, considering the PC is asking to use specific and limited ammo for a cantrip spell rather than just being able to pick up a pebble anywhere on the ground and fire away. Either way, I'm not really sure I understand how you could keep the PC away from being able to cast Magic Stone if it's something they're capable of already, so I'd just give them the fun flavor personally. It's not really a "buff" if they're doing something that's already within their limits, right?
She is a hombrew subclass of ranger (forgotten hunter, which is basically a ranger with a heavier empahsis on spellcasting). I already okayed this, and if anything it seems slightly weaker than most of the official subclasses), and is using a homebrew race that is, for all intents and purposes, a fey tiefling. She gets fey themed innate spellcasting and a couple other bits and bobs, nothing that seems to be abusable, and it was not specifically made for this character. She wants to cast mage stone on her darts, which would make them magic and increase the damage die to 1d6 instead of 1d4, and add her prof bonus to the attack, like you would with a normal attack. So its a slight mechanic advantage and a bigger flavor win.
I have had her walk me through her build, she is a ranger using a homebrew subclass (already checked it, it has nothing to do with this, its a spellcasting focused ranger subclass, and is balanced and actually on the weaker side when it comes to subclasses). Basically the only benefits she would get from casting magic stones on the darts instead of using the pebbles is that the damage type is Piercing and that she can add her prof bonus to the attack, but it is largely related to flavor. I can make a cantrip, but I figured that it would be easier to slightly bend the rules on magic stones rather than make, balance, and flavor a homebrew cantrip.
So she’s getting a better to hit bonus since she gets to add her proficiency, and better damage because she is using the spell? And better range with the spell than with an actual dart, which is a big deal. Seems like trying to have her cake and eat it, she should get one or the other, not both.
And there’s the added bonus of not ever having to worry that she’ll run out of ammunition.
Also, I’ll just add the archery fighting style would not apply to magic stone, but it would apply to a dart, in case she’s trying to use it in the mix.
Honestly it sounds like she doesn’t actually want a dart thrower, she wants a magic stone-caster, but better than the spell allows. Probably just easier to use magic stone RAW, and flavor the stones as looking like darts.
Please forgive me, but I notice that you have allowed your player a lot of homebrew for flavor. Rangers are considered one of the weakest classes in the game already, why would it be a good thing to have a sub-class weaker than all the rest of them? You've given them a homebrew race with innate spellcasting to add even more spells to a Ranger than usual. I have to wonder, is this also a homebrew setting?
There's a word built into the core of the word "Ranger"; Range. Darts have a particularly short one. Where Rangers shine is using a Longbow when they fire arrows. They have the longest short and maximum range in the game, of any character based on doing physical damage It would be considerably easier if they want to use a simple weapon instead of a martial one to have them use a Shortbow. That does a D6, and has considerably better range.
I have warned her about the subclass, but she is sticking with it. Luckily, she has a larger party with players who i trust to make decent builds, so im letting it slide. One of the reasons I am actually considering allowing her to have what would normally be a "x-thing but its better" approach is because of her class option. She is planning a thrown weapon build, and having played one in the past and having had a blast, I am letting her make a character that is not as optimized. As to the race, she presented a lot of homebrew races from dandwiki, so i instead guided her to a couple trustworthy, consistently good creators I knew of. Its any different than just playing a tiefling in terms of complexity, and likely easier than playing something like a pureblood, so I figured its okay.
I updated my signature file not long ago, so you probably didn't see it. "There is no wrong way to play D&D, it's just that some ways are more difficult to implement than others." You're right, it's perfectly ok as long as everyone has fun.
If you really want to let the player increase their Dart damage from 1d4 to 1d6 then maybe just make a Homebrew cantrip spell using Magic Stone as a kind of base.
This still seems like the best approach to me. Call it Stone Sliver or something and have it be Magic Stone only piercing instead of bludgeoning damage
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I mean if you compare it just by range, to hit, damage and such, it's clearly much better.
But I mean, it's basically a bad shortbow.
They would do more damage with a longbow and/or sharpshooter.
I'm not sure if the spell is both vocal and somatic but that could be an issue with stealth as well.
I don't see it breaking any games though and have a hard time seeing how they be out damaging everyone to the point they wouldn't even find it funny so it seems cool and fun, so go for it
There's a word built into the core of the word "Ranger"; Range. Darts have a particularly short one. Where Rangers shine is using a Longbow when they fire arrows.
Range: to pass over or through (an area or region) in all directions, as in exploring or searching: *They ranged the entire countryside*.
You know, like Aragorn. I assume "Strider" has the same issues as "hobbit."
It's a little bit better than intended, but it still eats a bonus action every 3 attacks she makes and isn't any stronger than just carrying an actual bow... it's really only marginally stronger than just using Magic Stone as written.
The main difference seems to be that your player seems to still want to treat it as a Ranged Weapon Attack, but the RAW of the spell is that throwing a stone actually creates a Ranged Spell Attack that basically just uses the enchanted stone as a component. Honestly, though, even if they're doing better than the other players as a result of the combo they want to create... it's really not THAT much better.
Here's what a recommend... instead of reflavoring Magic Stone, just homebrew a cantrip spell that's similar. The only detail I think you should change, however, is remove the ability in Magic Stone that allows the caster to give the stone to someone else and have them attack... that's really the most useful part of Magic Stone... if you've got a weak NPC or something with you, you can bonus action create ammo for them and they can make attacks and do damage using your spellcasting modifier instead of whatever piddling damage they would be able to deal on their own.
You phrased this post as though you were asking for feedback / advice about it, but all of your responses indicate that you are dead set on allowing it exactly as you've described it, so I am not sure what our input is useful for.
So my player wants to make a thrown weapon build using darts. She is asking if I will let her use the Magic Stone cantrip on the darts, making them deal 1d6 + spell mod piercing damage when the dart hits, instead of 1d4 + attack mod. Given that the damage never scales, I believe that this would be okay, since she will not be encountering many creatures with non-magical weapons resistance until tier 2, and it seems like a way to actually make Magic Stone and thrown weapons usable, however, i do not have much experience, and would like to get a second opinion.
This sort of sounds like a flavor thing rather than a rules thing- "is it okay if my pebbles are darts rather than rocks," and whatnot. And most classes capable of casting Magic Stone have proficiency with darts anyhow, so I'm not really sure she needs permission to use either- only to use them in conjunction. Since she has access to each either way, I don't think there's any mechanical impact from letting her flavor Magic Stone and her darts together (especially if she wants to go through the trouble of keeping her stock of darts in check).
This kind of thing gets my alarm bells ringing with the "I don't think you know yet what their 'build' will entail and how this can be abused." It's using a cantrip to increase the average base damage of the attack from 2.5 to 3.5, which doesn't sound like much, but hitting with 4 darts will deal an average 10 damage, while you only need 3 Magic Stones to deal 10.5 damage. Critical hits will average 7 damage instead of 5 damage.
If someone wants to make a build about throwing darts then that's cool - but they should be using darts. If they want to make a build around throwing magic rocks, then use Magic Stone.
I am assuming that when they get Extra Attack the player will want to make multiple attacks using the Magic Stones - as per the spell, this wouldn't work. The spell specifically states that you can choose to make a Ranged Spell Attack, not a Ranged Attack, so it wouldn't be covered by Extra Attack.
If you really want to let the player increase their Dart damage from 1d4 to 1d6 then maybe just make a Homebrew cantrip spell using Magic Stone as a kind of base.
Can OP clarify what class and/or race this PC is playing? I'm not really sure I understand what the problem here is, seeing that this is more of a question of what somebody is allowed to use in the flavoring of Magic Stone rather than if Magic Stone is inherently more powerful than darts as thrown weapons (which, in single damage I suppose yes, but if we're comparing this to a Monk throwing darts for instance then absolutely not). Frankly I feel like it's kind of a nerf if you ask me, considering the PC is asking to use specific and limited ammo for a cantrip spell rather than just being able to pick up a pebble anywhere on the ground and fire away. Either way, I'm not really sure I understand how you could keep the PC away from being able to cast Magic Stone if it's something they're capable of already, so I'd just give them the fun flavor personally. It's not really a "buff" if they're doing something that's already within their limits, right?
She is a hombrew subclass of ranger (forgotten hunter, which is basically a ranger with a heavier empahsis on spellcasting). I already okayed this, and if anything it seems slightly weaker than most of the official subclasses), and is using a homebrew race that is, for all intents and purposes, a fey tiefling. She gets fey themed innate spellcasting and a couple other bits and bobs, nothing that seems to be abusable, and it was not specifically made for this character. She wants to cast mage stone on her darts, which would make them magic and increase the damage die to 1d6 instead of 1d4, and add her prof bonus to the attack, like you would with a normal attack. So its a slight mechanic advantage and a bigger flavor win.
I have had her walk me through her build, she is a ranger using a homebrew subclass (already checked it, it has nothing to do with this, its a spellcasting focused ranger subclass, and is balanced and actually on the weaker side when it comes to subclasses). Basically the only benefits she would get from casting magic stones on the darts instead of using the pebbles is that the damage type is Piercing and that she can add her prof bonus to the attack, but it is largely related to flavor. I can make a cantrip, but I figured that it would be easier to slightly bend the rules on magic stones rather than make, balance, and flavor a homebrew cantrip.
So she’s getting a better to hit bonus since she gets to add her proficiency, and better damage because she is using the spell? And better range with the spell than with an actual dart, which is a big deal. Seems like trying to have her cake and eat it, she should get one or the other, not both.
And there’s the added bonus of not ever having to worry that she’ll run out of ammunition.
Also, I’ll just add the archery fighting style would not apply to magic stone, but it would apply to a dart, in case she’s trying to use it in the mix.
Honestly it sounds like she doesn’t actually want a dart thrower, she wants a magic stone-caster, but better than the spell allows. Probably just easier to use magic stone RAW, and flavor the stones as looking like darts.
Please forgive me, but I notice that you have allowed your player a lot of homebrew for flavor. Rangers are considered one of the weakest classes in the game already, why would it be a good thing to have a sub-class weaker than all the rest of them? You've given them a homebrew race with innate spellcasting to add even more spells to a Ranger than usual. I have to wonder, is this also a homebrew setting?
There's a word built into the core of the word "Ranger"; Range. Darts have a particularly short one. Where Rangers shine is using a Longbow when they fire arrows. They have the longest short and maximum range in the game, of any character based on doing physical damage It would be considerably easier if they want to use a simple weapon instead of a martial one to have them use a Shortbow. That does a D6, and has considerably better range.
<Insert clever signature here>
I have warned her about the subclass, but she is sticking with it. Luckily, she has a larger party with players who i trust to make decent builds, so im letting it slide. One of the reasons I am actually considering allowing her to have what would normally be a "x-thing but its better" approach is because of her class option. She is planning a thrown weapon build, and having played one in the past and having had a blast, I am letting her make a character that is not as optimized. As to the race, she presented a lot of homebrew races from dandwiki, so i instead guided her to a couple trustworthy, consistently good creators I knew of. Its any different than just playing a tiefling in terms of complexity, and likely easier than playing something like a pureblood, so I figured its okay.
I updated my signature file not long ago, so you probably didn't see it. "There is no wrong way to play D&D, it's just that some ways are more difficult to implement than others." You're right, it's perfectly ok as long as everyone has fun.
<Insert clever signature here>
This still seems like the best approach to me. Call it Stone Sliver or something and have it be Magic Stone only piercing instead of bludgeoning damage
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I mean if you compare it just by range, to hit, damage and such, it's clearly much better.
But I mean, it's basically a bad shortbow.
They would do more damage with a longbow and/or sharpshooter.
I'm not sure if the spell is both vocal and somatic but that could be an issue with stealth as well.
I don't see it breaking any games though and have a hard time seeing how they be out damaging everyone to the point they wouldn't even find it funny so it seems cool and fun, so go for it
Range: to pass over or through (an area or region) in all directions, as in exploring or searching: *They ranged the entire countryside*.
You know, like Aragorn. I assume "Strider" has the same issues as "hobbit."
It's a little bit better than intended, but it still eats a bonus action every 3 attacks she makes and isn't any stronger than just carrying an actual bow... it's really only marginally stronger than just using Magic Stone as written.
The main difference seems to be that your player seems to still want to treat it as a Ranged Weapon Attack, but the RAW of the spell is that throwing a stone actually creates a Ranged Spell Attack that basically just uses the enchanted stone as a component. Honestly, though, even if they're doing better than the other players as a result of the combo they want to create... it's really not THAT much better.
Here's what a recommend... instead of reflavoring Magic Stone, just homebrew a cantrip spell that's similar. The only detail I think you should change, however, is remove the ability in Magic Stone that allows the caster to give the stone to someone else and have them attack... that's really the most useful part of Magic Stone... if you've got a weak NPC or something with you, you can bonus action create ammo for them and they can make attacks and do damage using your spellcasting modifier instead of whatever piddling damage they would be able to deal on their own.
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You phrased this post as though you were asking for feedback / advice about it, but all of your responses indicate that you are dead set on allowing it exactly as you've described it, so I am not sure what our input is useful for.
Regardless, I have made you the spell you need:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/1088151-sanvaels-stone-darts
Thank you!