If you are one of my players, (Glads game) please stop reading. That means you Daniel.
Hey! I'm a new DM closing in on the first big boss battle. I'm trying to plan the first couple of moves for the bad guys in a way that scares the players a bit. I have an idea, but I can't figure out if it would work RAW. My two bad guys is a wizard and an adult white dragon.
My plan is: The wizard, hearing that the players are closing in, will head to the dragon who is sleeping on the roof (yes, this started out as a DoIP adventure). She will cast a Glyph of Warding on the ground where they are likely to enter the "arena". The Glyph will contain Dominate Person. Then, when the players are making their way towards the roof, she will cast Charm Monster on the still sleeping dragon and chug a potion of invisibility.
So far so good. However, what I'm wondering is if she would be able to issue commands to the dominated person without breaking the invisibility? I'd like to get at least a couple of rounds in before she gets nuked. (Players have way too good gear, she will die. Such is life).
Would this be possible or am I overlooking something?
Its a potion it will work as intended so actually so it will depend on you to allow her to cast the spell. Its already a separate thing to feed the dragon (Or herself) an invisibility potion but because she is exactly casting a spell before drinking the potion, that's why I don't know if this will work, the BBEG Wizard just needs to concentrate on that Dominate Person nothing else nothing more really, and become the message she needs to be. Also its exactly because Charm Monster is not concentration that it is fine, you just need her to see the player, be in range of the dominate person and do so.
However that's a lot of actions so maybe it will take her 20 seconds to do all of that immediately. So maybe make a skill challenge on whether the players see her before hand or not, or they just don't see her. Or 10 seconds if she's capable of doing it as bonus actions or none at all and she just does it.
Like drinking a potion of speed the players and the enemy monster can do the same thing.
Also ah holding concentration I think the invisibility will go down, but I am not so sure because it happens before she casts a spell so I'd yes if you want it to happen.
Yeah I intend to have her start this at least a good hour before the PCs are there. I believe the Glyph will take that long to cast anyway. The glyph also removes the concentration need I think.
But as long as she can issue commands without breaking invisibility I should be good! :) Thanks!
(And yeah, it's very possible the players manage to surprise her an none of this happens. But at least now there's a plan to begin with :D )
Concentrating on a spell does not count as casting a spell, allowing you to remain invisible if spellcasting would normally break your invisibility. So go ahead.
Maybe reading too far into your setup, but I'm at a loss as to why your Wiz *needs* to charm the dragon for it to react unfavorably toward the party. That's the purpose of the Wiz being invisible and dominating a PC, to make it easier for the dragon to beat the party, right? Your Dragon should be plenty upset that someone is poking around in its lair to do it's job and shouldn't need any prodding. I might suggest that these two BBEs are aware that they are better as partners than competitors, and as such would want to help each other out.
All of that to say that casting charm monster on the dragon is mostly unnecessary and might be better used to set other traps for the party inside the lair.
As to the question of issuing commands to the dominated person while invisible, it'll work because of the telepathic link, but the dominated person gets advantage on its saving throws the minute that combat starts. Either because the dragon is an ally of the wizard, or because the wizard charmed the dragon and it is now friendly. If you intend on forcing a PC to step away from the fight at the last minute, and leave the party down one combatant during the dragon fight, that's pretty devious. An evil wizard would definately pull that one off, but the players may not thank you for it.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I wouldn't allow glyph of warding with dominate person because the reason glyph gets around concentration requirements is that the glyph is treated as the caster, and the glyph doesn't have any actions to give commands with.
Glyph of Warding, using it as a spell glyph and storing the Dominate Person spell in it is 2 5th level spell slots. Plus, if the Charm Monster fails, you have a possibly pissed off white dragon coming for you. I might suggest saving a 5th level spell slot and using something like fireball or slow instead.
I wouldn't allow glyph of warding with dominate person because the reason glyph gets around concentration requirements is that the glyph is treated as the caster, and the glyph doesn't have any actions to give commands with.
That's not RAW, in no point in the text it mentions that the caster is no longer the caster. You can house rule it that way if you want in your games, but it's not how it was designed.
"Spell Glyph.You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level or lower in the glyph by casting it as part of creating the glyph. The spell must target a single creature or an area. The spell being stored has no immediate effect when cast in this way.When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast. If the spell has a target, it targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature. If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it. If the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration."
You cast the spell, it doesn't have it's effect, and then is cast when it triggers. The text still refers to the same casting, meaning, you are still the caster for all intends and purposes.
Back to the question, yes, you can give commands without breaking invisibility - "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." Commanding someone is neither of those, but I would rule that verbal commands would give an indication of where the bad guy is to the party.
I am, as some, puzzled by the charm monster stuff as, either: A. The dragon is already friendly towards the wizard and doesn't need to be charmed or B. Has legendary resistances and wouldn't allow to be charmed in the first place. If you decide to forgo the legendary resistance, why have them not be friendly on the first place?
Anyway, that was not your question, but it's just curiosity on my end.
Oh the Charm Monster is because the wizard and dragon are not on the same team and the wizard has some further shenanigans planned :) They are not straight up enemies, but they are not exactly friendly.
Truth be told I am planning on homebrewing the charm a bit to be concentration based to be strong enough to get past the legendary resistance. Simply because I want to have the possibility for a moment where the wizard loses concentration, and gets absolutely destroyed by the dragon.
This is what prompted the kinda convuluted plan in the first place as I didn't want to concentrate on the Dominate person.
<snip> ... However, what I'm wondering is if she would be able to issue commands to the dominated person without breaking the invisibility? I'd like to get at least a couple of rounds in before she gets nuked. (Players have way too good gear, she will die. Such is life).
Would this be possible or am I overlooking something?
<snip>
... the Charm Monster is because the wizard and dragon are not on the same team and the wizard has some further shenanigans planned :) They are not straight up enemies, but they are not exactly friendly.
<snip>
Simply because I want to have the possibility for a moment where the wizard loses concentration, and gets absolutely destroyed by the dragon.
1) Yes. What you are describing fits my reading of RAW.
2) Even with your updated justifications, I continue to concur with those who suggest these effects could be achieved without Charm Monster.
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If you are one of my players, (Glads game) please stop reading. That means you Daniel.
Hey! I'm a new DM closing in on the first big boss battle. I'm trying to plan the first couple of moves for the bad guys in a way that scares the players a bit. I have an idea, but I can't figure out if it would work RAW. My two bad guys is a wizard and an adult white dragon.
My plan is: The wizard, hearing that the players are closing in, will head to the dragon who is sleeping on the roof (yes, this started out as a DoIP adventure). She will cast a Glyph of Warding on the ground where they are likely to enter the "arena". The Glyph will contain Dominate Person.
Then, when the players are making their way towards the roof, she will cast Charm Monster on the still sleeping dragon and chug a potion of invisibility.
So far so good. However, what I'm wondering is if she would be able to issue commands to the dominated person without breaking the invisibility? I'd like to get at least a couple of rounds in before she gets nuked. (Players have way too good gear, she will die. Such is life).
Would this be possible or am I overlooking something?
Its a potion it will work as intended so actually so it will depend on you to allow her to cast the spell. Its already a separate thing to feed the dragon (Or herself) an invisibility potion but because she is exactly casting a spell before drinking the potion, that's why I don't know if this will work, the BBEG Wizard just needs to concentrate on that Dominate Person nothing else nothing more really, and become the message she needs to be. Also its exactly because Charm Monster is not concentration that it is fine, you just need her to see the player, be in range of the dominate person and do so.
However that's a lot of actions so maybe it will take her 20 seconds to do all of that immediately. So maybe make a skill challenge on whether the players see her before hand or not, or they just don't see her. Or 10 seconds if she's capable of doing it as bonus actions or none at all and she just does it.
Like drinking a potion of speed the players and the enemy monster can do the same thing.
Also ah holding concentration I think the invisibility will go down, but I am not so sure because it happens before she casts a spell so I'd yes if you want it to happen.
Yeah I intend to have her start this at least a good hour before the PCs are there. I believe the Glyph will take that long to cast anyway. The glyph also removes the concentration need I think.
But as long as she can issue commands without breaking invisibility I should be good! :) Thanks!
(And yeah, it's very possible the players manage to surprise her an none of this happens. But at least now there's a plan to begin with :D )
Update I search it up and found this:
Concentrating on a spell does not count as casting a spell, allowing you to remain invisible if spellcasting would normally break your invisibility. So go ahead.
Maybe reading too far into your setup, but I'm at a loss as to why your Wiz *needs* to charm the dragon for it to react unfavorably toward the party. That's the purpose of the Wiz being invisible and dominating a PC, to make it easier for the dragon to beat the party, right? Your Dragon should be plenty upset that someone is poking around in its lair to do it's job and shouldn't need any prodding. I might suggest that these two BBEs are aware that they are better as partners than competitors, and as such would want to help each other out.
All of that to say that casting charm monster on the dragon is mostly unnecessary and might be better used to set other traps for the party inside the lair.
As to the question of issuing commands to the dominated person while invisible, it'll work because of the telepathic link, but the dominated person gets advantage on its saving throws the minute that combat starts. Either because the dragon is an ally of the wizard, or because the wizard charmed the dragon and it is now friendly. If you intend on forcing a PC to step away from the fight at the last minute, and leave the party down one combatant during the dragon fight, that's pretty devious. An evil wizard would definately pull that one off, but the players may not thank you for it.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I wouldn't allow glyph of warding with dominate person because the reason glyph gets around concentration requirements is that the glyph is treated as the caster, and the glyph doesn't have any actions to give commands with.
Glyph of Warding, using it as a spell glyph and storing the Dominate Person spell in it is 2 5th level spell slots. Plus, if the Charm Monster fails, you have a possibly pissed off white dragon coming for you. I might suggest saving a 5th level spell slot and using something like fireball or slow instead.
That's not RAW, in no point in the text it mentions that the caster is no longer the caster. You can house rule it that way if you want in your games, but it's not how it was designed.
"Spell Glyph. You can store a prepared spell of 3rd level or lower in the glyph by casting it as part of creating the glyph. The spell must target a single creature or an area. The spell being stored has no immediate effect when cast in this way. When the glyph is triggered, the stored spell is cast. If the spell has a target, it targets the creature that triggered the glyph. If the spell affects an area, the area is centered on that creature. If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it. If the spell requires concentration, it lasts until the end of its full duration."
You cast the spell, it doesn't have it's effect, and then is cast when it triggers. The text still refers to the same casting, meaning, you are still the caster for all intends and purposes.
Back to the question, yes, you can give commands without breaking invisibility - "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." Commanding someone is neither of those, but I would rule that verbal commands would give an indication of where the bad guy is to the party.
I am, as some, puzzled by the charm monster stuff as, either: A. The dragon is already friendly towards the wizard and doesn't need to be charmed or B. Has legendary resistances and wouldn't allow to be charmed in the first place. If you decide to forgo the legendary resistance, why have them not be friendly on the first place?
Anyway, that was not your question, but it's just curiosity on my end.
Good luck ;)
The spell Dominate Person targets a humanoid that you can see within range so if the caster do it should work fine.
Buffing in advance is smart and effective way to come prepared!
Oh the Charm Monster is because the wizard and dragon are not on the same team and the wizard has some further shenanigans planned :) They are not straight up enemies, but they are not exactly friendly.
Truth be told I am planning on homebrewing the charm a bit to be concentration based to be strong enough to get past the legendary resistance. Simply because I want to have the possibility for a moment where the wizard loses concentration, and gets absolutely destroyed by the dragon.
This is what prompted the kinda convuluted plan in the first place as I didn't want to concentrate on the Dominate person.
1) Yes. What you are describing fits my reading of RAW.
2) Even with your updated justifications, I continue to concur with those who suggest these effects could be achieved without Charm Monster.